Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Death by text? Is Michelle Carter guilty of manslaughter in boyfriend’s suicide?

Episode Date: June 7, 2017

Michelle Carter sent dozens of texts to Conrad Roy urging her boyfriend to kill himself in the days before the teen killed himself. Carter, now 20, is on trial in Massachusetts for manslaughter as prosecutors argued Roy’s death was the result of her cruel words. In this episode, Nancy Grace discusses the unusual case with Maryland criminal defense lawyer Robin Ficker. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Prosecutors say a Massachusetts woman pressured a friend to take his own life because she wanted sympathy. The involuntary manslaughter trial of Michelle Carter, the 20-year-old Plainville woman accused of causing her boyfriend Conrad Roy's death by pushing him to kill himself back in July 2014. She used Conrad as a pawn. Prosecutors say it was all an act though, from a teen now age 20, who wanted attention from her boyfriend's death. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Prosecutors in her trial claim that she told the 18 year old to kill himself numerous times over text messages and phone calls. Text between Carter and Roy show she pushed him to drive out to a remote spot and poison himself with carbon monoxide in his car. As his truck was filling with carbon monoxide, he was scared. He got out. It was the defendant on the other end of the phone who ordered him back in. Did she use her boyfriend as a pawn in a sick game, persuading him, just a young boy, a teen,

a sensitive boy that had bouts of depression, that had tried to kill himself before? Did she use him, convince him to commit suicide in order to get attention as the, quote, grieving girlfriend, even carrying out a dry run two days before Conrad Roy III committed suicide? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. And joining me, a renowned attorney, Robin Robin Ficker out of the Maryland jurisdiction who practices all across the country. Ficker have you first of all welcome let the hazing

begin with Ficker. Ficker have you actually read the thousands of text messages she sent him on top of phone calls, emails, the works, trying to get him to kill himself? I certainly have read them. But here, I think the case is simple. The question is, do you believe or not that actions speak louder than words. Look at his actions. He drove the truck there where he could do this. He installed the generator that was going to produce the gas. He put up the windows. He attempted suicide many times before. He researched hundreds of times the internet how to do this. He turned on the engine. He's responsible. His actions caused the death, not her words. Really? Knowing that he was so incredibly prone to depression, let's take a listen to some of the things that she actually said to him.

Okay, let's hear her words that Mr. Ficker is so anxious to discount, because there are plenty of them, such as, you need to stop thinking about this and just do it. Because overthinking always kills overthinking. You can't think about it. You just have to do it. You said you were going to do it. Like, I don't get why. I don't get why you aren't. So, and another, so I guess you're not going to do it then. All that for nothing. I'm just confused. Like, you were so ready and determined. Then the guy, Conrad Roy, a teen boy who was in love with this girl,

he wants to get out of it. He wants to not kill himself. She says, you kept pushing it off. You say you'll do it, but you never do. It's always going to be that way. If you don't take action, you're just making it harder on yourself by pushing it off. You just have to do it. Do you want to do it now? I mean, she's like the devil on his shoulder. Quote, it's probably the best time to do it now because everyone is sleeping. Just go somewhere in your truck. No one is really out there right now because it's an awkward time. And if you don't do it now, you're never going to do it. And you can say you'll do it tomorrow, but you probably won't. And Conrad, I told you, I'll take care of your family. Don't

worry about them. Everyone will take care of them to make sure they won't be alone. People will help them through it. We talked about this. They'll be okay and accept it. People who commit suicide don't think this much. They just do it. Did you know all that? This is a lot of chit-chat. If he had done nothing, her words would have meant absolutely nothing. Her words to you mean something only because of his causative acts which caused his death. He turned on the engine. He drove there.

He put the windows up. He took the drugs that made his thinking unclear. He researched this. If a terrorist had researched how to set off a bomb and then did it, he would be the cause, not someone on the telephone. I'm going to pause and thank our awesome sponsor, our partner in today's podcast. And I'll start with a story out of Racine, Wisconsin. A house catches on fire, nobody's home.

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The mother went for a walk with him on the beach just before he committed suicide and had no indication anything was going to happen. But then he gets on the phone and the text with Michelle Carter. He goes, you got to do it right now. In fact, she says, if you want it as bad as you say you do, it's time to do it right now. Don't be scared. You made this decision. If you don't do it tonight, you're going to be thinking about it all the time and you'll be miserable the rest of your life. Not only that, we're talking about Michelle Carter, a 20-year-old woman charged with manslaughter of a teen boy who killed himself. She sent him thousands of texts, emails, encouraging him to take his own life, even telling him exactly how to do it. Exactly how to jerry-rig a generator so he will be able to kill himself, quote.

You can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window of your car and seal it with duct tape and shirt so it can't escape. You'll die within like 20, 30 minutes all pain-free, Conrad, all pain-free. In fact, she actually got mad, Robin Ficker, when a friend of Conrad's tried to move her tribute baseball tournament to her dead boyfriend, to the dead boyfriend's hometown instead of her hometown. And she actually got mad at him and wrote in a text you're not trying to get credit for this are you it's my idea i mean really seriously robin you know there's no law in massachusetts against someone assisting in a suicide there's no law here. But for his acts, you use the term but for. But for his acts, he wouldn't be dead.

If he had done nothing, he wouldn't have been dead. His acts caused this death. Her words, standing alone, did not. Her words didn't cause death. If he had called me and said the same thing, I wouldn't have committed suicide. In my mind, she preyed on an innocent boy. Depression in teen boys is very common. She knew he had tried to commit suicide in the past, and all it took was basically a feather on his back for him to jump off a cliff.

In my mind, it's like instructing someone how to create a bomb and then telling them when, where, how, and then standing back when the bomb goes off, wiping their hands of it, saying, oh, I had nothing to do with that. It's like the getaway driver out in the car during the bank robbery. Oh, I wasn't there. I didn't have anything to do with it. I mean, do you not see that analogy, Robin Thicker? I see your analogy, but it doesn't carry the day.

She was also taking drugs herself to treat her psychiatric condition, and she wasn't thinking clearly. Oh, please. She was taking Celexa or whatever that is for depression. And there is a very controversial doctor and let me just say controversial that is stating that because she was on the antidepressant celexa which is prescribed widely it's dr peter breguin i believe is his name, Peter Breguin or Bregan, very controversial psychiatrist, claiming that she was basically involuntarily intoxicated at the time because she was on

an antidepressant. That's going nowhere. All right, that's a crazy argument. That's not working. It may not be working, but it's certainly one that the defense has to make. They have to throw in all possible winning arguments. Well, that's true. To be competent. It's an argument in the alternative. If the judge doesn't believe that he caused his own death, then perhaps the judge can take some solace in that argument. I think the state's attorney is just doing their job. You're right, and that's a very common and accepted and traditional defense theory.

You try this, that she's not the one that actually manually killed him. Two, you would go the fallback argument is Robin Ficker, who is a very well-known defense attorney throughout the country arguing that she was under the influence of Selexa okay nobody's going to buy that but also what about the traditional concepts of causation that is why I believe Robin Ficker that the defense took the case away from a jury and they waived a right to a jury trial and they are having a bench trial with a judge only. Why do you think they did that, Robin?

Well, I think they may have made a mistake because jury has to be unanimous. I have found, and I have a jury trial starting here shortly, I have found that there's always one or two holdouts, one or two people who have serious doubt. It's more difficult to convince 12 people than just one. They may have made a mistake in going with the judge. You know, I have the exact opposite reaction for this reason, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I was thinking, Robin, that it was a very wise move to go with the bench trial because it takes out all emotionality. Because when you read, for instance, when he got out of the car and said he didn't want to kill himself that night, she says, get back in the car,

get back in there, and just do it. When you read things like that, it's very incendiary. A judge may be able to put emotions aside and focus on the fact that she was not there at the time of the suicide, okay? He may be able to look at it more calmly than a jury would but i see what you're saying it's easier to convince one than 12 and the whole concept robin i mean i've looked up a few similarities there were some 1960s cases where people were charged playing russian roulette and the other people at the table were charged with the victim's murder. There was also a case where a man loaded a gun for his wife and offered her tips on how to use it before she killed herself. Those have come under fire for the reasons that you're stating, Robin.

In those cases, there was actually some act committed by the accused. Here, there really were no acts. She didn't purchase the generator or the truck or drive it there. She did nothing. As a matter of fact, you talk about their relationship. It was simply a textual relationship. They weren't physically in love. They saw each other very few times.

This was an imaginary relationship. If you're saying they never had sex, we're taking her word for that. But also, they did meet many times, but they texted, you're thousands, I'm talking 10, 20,000 texts, thousands of emails, phone calls, the works. But when I hear these words and I think about, I think about my boy and my daughter, you know, they're going to be teens in just a few years, Robin Ficker. Think if someone says, the more you push this off, the more it's going to eat at you. You're ready. All you have to do is turn on the generator and you'll be free and happy. No more waiting.

No more pain. 20 minutes max and you'll be in heaven. Everything will be fine. If you want it as bad as you say you do, it's time to do it now. Don't be scared. You's time to do it now. Don't be scared. You've got to do it tonight. If you don't, the rest of your life will be miserable. You know what?

If somebody said that to one of my children, I would want them under the jail. Okay? What about that, Vicar? There was no real relationship there. You have been a teenager teenager and I have too. When there's a real relationship, you want to spend as much time as you possibly can with that other person on a daily basis, not infrequently like these two were spending. This was not a relationship. It was a make-believe relationship. She refers to him as her boyfriend. And then she played it up as the grieving girlfriend.

That was meaningless talk. They were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were just people in the cloud talking to each other. Okay, Robin Ficker, very well-known and respected attorney out of the Maryland jurisdiction and beyond. Thank you for being with us. I know you're heading into court right now. Robin, thank you.

I'll pick this up with Alan the Duke, Duke joining me from his posh pad in Hollywood. I'll see you on the backside, Robin. Thanks, man. Thank you. I've got a witness trial. I think I'm going to do it. Thank you. No offense, but I hope you on the backside, Robin. Thanks, man. Thank you. I've got to win this trial. I think I'm going to do it.

Thank you. No offense, but I hope you lose, man, because that means another guilty person will be on the streets. Thanks to Robin Ficker. Bye, buddy. Thank you. Alan, to you, the defense attorney with whom I've spoken extensively, Joseph Cataldo, also a very well-respected lawyer says that Conrad Roy previously was suicidal and that at one point Carter had talked him out of taking his life. That will be a strong defense. What do you think is going to happen, Alan?

This is a shocking case to me because you're taught on the school ground. You maybe have said this to John David and Lucy, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. This whole case is about words, not sticks and stones. Is it true? Can you be assaulted with words? I could say all kinds of things to you, but does that make me criminally liable with how you interpret those words? Well, no, I'm not saying just words. I don't mean just

name calling or questions. I mean explaining to someone how to commit suicide and how to kill themselves and goading them until they do it. You know what? This is going to be in the hands of a judge and we're standing by. Nancy, before we finish, let me play a couple of minutes from the opening statements in the trial. First, you'll hear from Prosecutor Mary Claire Flynn describing how Carter used text messages and phone calls to push Conrad Roy towards suicide, followed by about a minute of defense lawyer Joseph Cataldo making the point that all of the physical actions that led to Roy's death were his own and that he had been on a suicidal path for years. Tonight is the night. It's now or never. When he delayed, she expressed frustration and even anger.

You better not be bullshitting me and saying you're going to do this, then purposely get caught. She pressured him not to procrastinate. In one text, when he simply asked her, how was your was your day she replied when are you going to do it stop ignoring the question. She helped him devise a plan to kill himself using a combustion engine to poison himself with carbon monoxide gas. She encouraged him to Google ways to make carbon monoxide but she also proposed other painless and even effective suicide methods such as hanging hanging or by using a bag. Hanging is painless, and it takes like a second if you do it right.

When they finally decided on a portable generator as a mechanism of his death, she told him to take some Benadryl, just in case. When the original generator malfunctioned, she told him to get a different gas machine. It was then that he found the gas-powered water pump. She encouraged him to conceal the suicide plan from his parents. She told him to lie to his mother about where he was going so that she would not interfere with him leaving the house to commit suicide. She warned him not to let his father see him get the gas machine. She advised him on how not to get caught, telling him not to do it in his driveway where he would

be easily found. She instructed him to go to a secluded parking lot. Just park your car, sit there, it's not a big deal. She made him promise that he would go through with the plan. You need to do it, Conrad. Okay, I'm going to do it today, he said. You promise? Conrad, I promise, babe. I have to now. Carter, you can't break a promise. Go somewhere. You know you won't get caught.

You can find a place. I know you can. And he made good on that promise. Just after 6 p.m. on July 12th, he left his mother's house, telling her that he was going to his friend's house. Instead, he drove to the Kmart parking lot. His last text at 6.25 was to the defendant, OK, I'm almost here. She then asks, did you delete all the text messages? But it doesn't end with text messages. After that last text, Conrad called the defendant at 6.28 p.m., where they spoke for 43 minutes. Immediately after that phone call, at 7.12, the defendant called him back, and their phones connected for another 47 minutes. Three minutes later, at 8.02, the defendant texts a

friend that she was just on the phone with a loud noise. She heard moaning, and after 20 minutes, he wouldn't answer when she called his name. I would suggest that the records will show that call was the last call that Conrad Roy ever made. He never used his phone again. And at 8.25, the defendant was texting another friend. I think he just killed himself. Your Honor, this case is a suicide case. It is a suicide. It is not a homicide. And older than Michelle Carter, who has had a long, long history of suicidality, suicide attempts, suicidal ideation, finally caused his own death. Michelle Carter was not present. Michelle Carter had been texting with him.

She did not physically see this individual for over one year. The evidence will show at times to the texting. Conrad Roy even acknowledges that Michelle doesn't have influence over her. And the evidence of the texting is overwhelming that Conrad Roy was on this path to take his own life for years. And I would also suggest to this court, go through this case methodically and read in a chronological order. The Commonwealth is trying to have it so that the evidence is all

about Michelle Carter. There is so much evidence about Conrad Roy and his decisions and his choices that he made. For instance, the water power pump that caused the death of Conrad Roy, we are told. How did that pump, what will the evidence show how the pump physically got into the car? The evidence will show that the pump was placed in the car by Conrad Roy. Two days prior, how did a generator get into the back of his truck? Not the water pump that ultimately took his life. What about a generator two days before? The evidence will show that Conrad Roy tried to take his own life two days prior. And again, if you're not there when a fire starts,

who will be there to save your home? With SimpliSafe Home Security, your smoke detectors immediately alert emergency services at the first sign of a fire. Get 10% off your system today at simplisafe.com slash Nancy. That's simplisafe.com slash Nancy. That's simplisafe.com slash Nancy. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.