Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Death By Water: Parents force feed 11-y-o little boy until dead

Episode Date: July 14, 2020

An 11-year-old boy is dead after being forced to drink 96 ounces of water in a four hour period. His body was found in his bed, in a urine-soaked diaper and foaming at the mouth. Zachary Sabin's father and stepmother have been arrested and are facing multiple charges in this water intoxication death.Joining Nancy Grace today: Kathleen Murphy - North Carolina, Family Attorney   Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist Dr. Free N. Hess, Physician, Child Safety Expert, Founder of PediMom Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville Lauren Scharf - Fox 21 Colorado Springs News Reporter  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Death by water intoxication is one thing, but having it forced down your throat by your parents at age 11 till you die is another thing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know you can't be in the crime business for long before you have to deal with child abuse. The child abuse cases that I prosecuted for 10 years in inner city Atlanta are still with me to this day. I remember every one of them. But you know what? It takes a lot to surprise me now.

But this case has. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let's start with a listen to our friends at Fox 21 News. On March 11th, Angela Tootkin and her husband Matthew's lives changed forever. No parent should ever have to bury their child. The El Paso County Sheriff's Office says Zachary's father, Ryan Sabin, and his stepmother,

Tara Sabin, are accused of making the 11-year-old. The even begin to express the amount of pain myself, my wife, and our children feel at the loss of Zachary. According to a study done by pediatrics.org, water intoxication is a rare occurrence, especially resulting in death in children. I've never really heard of it. I guess I've maybe read a story of it here and there, but didn't put much stock in it. I'm just a trial lawyer, okay? But to force a child to drink that much water to solve a bedwetting issue seems to me bass-ackwards. Again, I'm certainly not a shrink or a doctor, an MD who we have with us today, but it seems to me this is more of a punishment because drinking 64 ounces of water is certainly not going to cure

bedwetting. So what is this all about? Well, first of all, if these allegations are true, these two need to burn in hell because rotting in hell would take too long. With me, an all-star panel. First of all, Kathleen Murphyphy north carolina family lawyer she's seen it all she's at ncdomesticlaw.com renowned psychologist joining us from new york karen stark dr free n hess physician and child safety expert founder of pettymomMom.com, Lauren Scharf joining us, Fox 21 Colorado Springs news reporter and death investigator, professor of forensic at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, I want to just start off with you, Joe Scott.

You're sending your baby, he's a baby to me away to the military today my son and daughter are 12 i feel like your son is still 11 years old this little boy this victim zachary is one year younger than the twins 11 years old joe scott just off the top. Why? Why would you do this to your son? It's sadistic, Nancy. It's absolutely sadistic. Well, I had a few other words in mind, but go ahead. Yeah, I did too, including wanting a few moments in a room with an individual that would do this because this is nothing more than sadistic torture. And, you know, water has been used for millennial to use as a method of torture. It's something that we have copious amounts of and something anybody can get access to. And the fact that they would do this to this poor child who

they have been given charge over in this world to watch after, to take care of the horror that this kid went through. Water intoxication itself is absolutely brutal. And we're going to explore that a little bit because it is the most hideous type of death you can imagine. I want to go first to Lauren Scharf, Fox 21 Colorado Springs news reporter. I understand that a petition filed with juvenile court offers some horrible details about this little boy's abuse accusations. What can you tell me?

Yeah, so the father said and told police that he kicked the 11-year-old a few times when he would throw a fit. And then also the stepmother explained that he would throw fits when he was supposed to be doing physical therapy and he would just throw himself on the floor. And that, again, that they were just giving him water when they were actually eating dinner and would not allow him to come and eat dinner unless he finished drinking enough water. I don't understand that. And another thing, following up with Lauren Sharp Fox 21, throwing fits over physical therapy, you mean, what do you mean by physical therapy? I guess he used to do exercises, which were given to him by a physical therapist.

And when he would get dramatic, he would supposedly throw tantrums about doing the exercises. And the stepmother told police that he would cry and say he couldn't do them and throw himself on the floor. Huh. You know what? I don't believe that. I know that's coming from the mother, the stepmother, I believe, who was part of forcing the child to drink until he died, an 11-year-old little boy. So, you know what? I'm taking everything she says with a box of salt. If they would force him to drink 64 ounces of water before he could come to the dinner table because he wet the bed. Wow. You know what? To you, Karen Stark, bedwetting is a classic sign at this age, age 11, a classic sign of child abuse. I've never had a single child molestation case or abuse case where the child did

not wet the bed. Fill me in and put it in a nutshell in words I can understand. Karen Stark. Okay. Dead wetting is a classic sign of the only way that a child can express it. It's an unconscious thing that happens when a child is angry. When I'm reading this, it says that he had some kind of a physical condition. Yeah, he's being kicked and beaten by his stepmother and father. That physical condition. Go ahead. I have to say, this is not that always, I don't want Joe Scott in a particularly takes the wrong way, but the father's in the military. He understands that this is excessive punishment. And so we have adults here who do

have unrealistic expectations for an 11 year old on what he's capable of, has anger, terrible anger management issues. And they really do not know the proper way to raise a child or deal with a child who's having a tantrum. You know, you're kind of making it sound like they don't know how to raise a child that somehow they are miseducated. That is BS. That's a technical legal term because everyone innately knows not to kick a child on the floor, an adult, not to force feed a child water until the child dies for Pete's sake. You have to wonder in that case, Nancy, whether they in fact had suffered sexual or emotional abuse themselves. Are you talking about the parents? That produces.

Are you seriously talking about the parents? Okay, you know what? Don't care. Don't care what they went through. All right? I'm sorry if it did happen. There's no suggestion. Okay, you know what? Don't care. Don't care what they went through. All right? I'm sorry if it did happen. There's no suggestion.

Not even a... You need to cut her mic. Because I don't want to hear what may have happened to the parents in their childhood. There's no evidence to suggest that at all. I care about... This child is dead, for Pete's sake. This 11-year-old boy is dead for Pete's sake. This 11 year old boy is dead. Why? Because his stepmother,

the epitome of an evil stepmother and father force fed him huge quantities of water and he died. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a little boy, just 11 years old, Zachary Sabin, now dead of child abuse. Joining me in All-Star panel, I want to go straight out to Dr. Free N. Hess, physician, child safety expert, founder of PettyMom.com. Dr. Hess, take a listen to our friends at KRDO News Channel 13. Listen. El Paso County detectives believe Zachary Sabin, an 11-year-old from Explorer Elementary Elementary died at the hands of his parents. He died of water intoxication, and an arresting report shows both his father, Ryan Sabin,

an active-duty Fort Carson soldier, and his stepmother, Tara Sabin, were forcing him to drink bottles of water before bed, but he kept throwing up. His siblings told police Zach got in trouble a lot. On the night he died, the report says he didn't eat dinner and was leaning over and looked weak. A police interview with Ryan Saban says he kicked his son and at one point he fell backward and hit the back of his head on the ground. The next morning, Zach was found foaming at the mouth and pronounced dead. It wasn't until three months later detectives were able to arrest the Sabins. What we have to do is make sure that we are very thorough with getting reports

and documenting everything. It's our job to chronicle what has happened. They're both facing first-degree murder and child abuse charges. As they should. Of course, in Texas, there is the death penalty. I'm very curious why it's not being sought in this case. This is not a death penalty debate. You can believe in it or not believe in it.

The reality is it exists in many states, and if we're going to have it, these two, Satan and his henchperson Beelzebub, are the perfect candidates for the death penalty. Force feeding their very weak 11-year-old little boy water until he dies, foaming at the mouth. Dr. Free and Hess, physician, joining me, child safety expert. What can you tell me about how much water it would take to kill a child? So I think what's most important here, too, is to know how much water is normal in a kid.

Because in a lot of these stories, I'm seeing that they were giving him 64 ounces a day of water. And that actually, for his age, is within normal, over a 24-hour period. So kids in general should get the number of eight ounce cups that is equal to their age. So if they're four years old, they should get four eight ounce cups throughout the entire day, up to a max of 64 ounces in a day.

So essentially by the time they're eight years old, they're meeting their maximum, that's what they should have from then on out. The problem is that is over 24 hour period of time in a normal kid who's eating, drinking, active, doing all their regular daily things. This particular child, Zachary, during the time that we're talking about, he got four 20-ounce bottles in four hours.

So it's 96 ounces of water in a four-hour period. So the problem with this is that when you add a significant amount of water, especially when you're adding that water very quickly to the body, you can end up getting very severe electrolyte imbalances, specifically sodium imbalances, which then leads to the symptoms that he likely start to have confusion, disorientation, nausea, vomiting, changes in his mental state. They can even become psychotic. They can start to act out in that way, but eventually they end up having an altered mental status to where they become depressed, meaning not responsive. They can then lead them into coma and death. So that's where the problem is, is the amount of water in a short period of time being forced on

this child. That is what water intoxication in this sense to lauren sharp fox 21 colorado springs we are understanding that this colorado couple the bio dad and the stepmother forced this little boy to drink four 24 ounce bottles four-ounce bottles of water very, very quickly. Four times 24 would be 96 ounces of water in a very short time. I understand it was punishment for bedwetting. Lauren Scharf, can you clarify the facts as we know them now? Yeah, so the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, you know, has accused Ryan Saban and Tara Saban of making the 11-year-old drink 64 ounces of water. Even so much that one of the children in the house noticed it and, you know, said that in court documents that Zachary complained of wiggly legs. And that's a symptom of this water intoxication is an ability to walk and things like that. I know that authorities found the little boy dead in the family home wearing a urine soaked diaper with bruises across his body.

He's 11 years old, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer. You know, I hate to even call you a family lawyer because that sounds so cozy and wonderful. Wow, a lawyer who practices family law. It's anything but. It's one of the most vicious areas of the law. We're talking about child custody disputes that end in shootings and death, child abuse, nasty divorces. That's what family law is. But you know what? Think about it. Kathleen Murphy, an 11-year-old boy. When my son John David was 11, he's already taller than me. This child was forced to wear a urine-soaked diaper and covered in bruises. You know, Nancy, I would love to read the family court file in this case because this wasn't a one-time thing.

This was a pattern of abuse. This was a behavior. I think that this military man may have been embarrassed that his son had to wear diapers to bed. Well, wait, wait. To me, I'm no doctor, but if you drink, this is saying 96 ounces. I don't know what the truth is as to how many ounces, but it's near a gallon. If you drink a gallon of water, of course you're going to wet the bed. At night, yes. Drinking at night. I'm concerned that this was a pattern of behavior

that was ignored by the family court system. I cannot believe that this 11-year-old child didn't say to his mother, because they had to be done with golf custodyold child didn't say to his mother, because they had become weeks off custody, and didn't say to his mother, he's doing these things to me, mommy. This is what's happening to me, mommy. And mommy may have gone to the court system and tried to get relief. But the court system said they tend to be quiet. They're not listening. I don't know that being quiet is a good way to put it. I think turning the other way

from fatal, deadly child abuse may be another way to put it more accurately. With me, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, Dr. Free N. Hess, physician, child safety expert, Lauren Scharr, Fox 21, scott morgan weighing in joe scott did you hear the way the little boy was found foaming at the mouth wearing a urine soaked diaper and covered in bruises yeah yeah i did nancy and uh just as uh our physician on the air with us was talking about the electrolytes in this child's body are messed up okay you, you know what? I really appreciate you and Dr. Freon Hess's vast knowledge, but you have to dummy down for people like me, okay? What do you mean by electrolytes way out of whack?

What does that mean? Yeah, one of the things that happens- You know what you made me think of? You remember those old operation games where you'd perform surgery and things would light up? When you say electrolytes, that's what I think of, or little sparkly things. What are you saying? Well, what I'm saying is that these electrolytes will keep our body in balance.

I mean, think about every sports drink that's out there. They talk about, you know, they're fortified with electrolytes. You know, you lose these. Yeah, I don't know what that means. You lose these through metabolism. You know, you're working out, you're sweating, that sort of thing. Electrolytes are essential to keep our system in balance. And one of the things that happens is, yeah, the child will begin cramping, the child will seize, but also this can lead to an event involving the heart where the child will have a heart failure event.

You're talking about he's foaming from the mouth more than likely. I would suspect that at autopsy they found out this child was in congestive failure, probably had very heavy lungs. But this is what I'm really concerned about, Nancy. When you say congestive failure, I think what you mean by that is congestive heart failure where the lungs and the chamber around the heart feels like it was fluid and you just can't pump it out. Yeah, and everything gets very heavy. It's very difficult to breathe. You know that's what killed my dad. I know what you mean.

And you'll see many times you'll see all of the organs will be very heavily congested. But this is one of the troubling things for me, Nancy, is the fact that this baby, and he is baby, had these bruises around his body. I don't, I concur with everybody on the panel that this is not a one-off event. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We're talking about an 11-year-old little boy, Zachary, who dies of forced water intoxication. But that's not the whole story. He's covered in bruises. This 11-year-old little boy is being forced to wear an adult, is wearing a diaper. And it's urine soaked.

And there are abrasions and bruises all over him and as a matter of fact when you and Kathleen are pointing out you don't think this was a first time deal that nobody went from zero to 100 mph overnight you darn right because we're learning that in an interview with the deputies the Colorado Department of Human Services was contacted about the boy before his death. That means DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, CPS, Child Protective Services. They were in on this. And, of course, as usual, they do nothing. And now the little boy is dead.

I'm also curious about where the bio mom is during all of this happening. But you're right. You and Kathleen are right, Joe Scott. This was not their first time at the rodeo. They've been beating this little boy for a long time. Yeah, they have, Nancy. And just so folks at home understand, you know, one of the things that we do post-mortem in our examinations is we will do something called aging of the bruises. Now, clinical practitioners do this. Hold on, I've got to write that down.

Aging of the bruises. Yeah, aging of the bruises. And so, everybody at home can kind of identify that when you get bruised, all right, say you bump into something, those bruises, they change color over a period of time. And all that's tied back to the bruise literally resolving, okay, kind of disappearing. And what we do in forensics is that we document the color of these bruises, the extent to which this trauma took place. And it's almost like a roadmap, Nancy, where we can look at these and get an idea how far back in time these things go.

Now, you know, about a month, these things have completely resolved. Everybody at home can identify with that. But my suspicion is, and my thought is, did this child have any kind of substantial scarring on his body? Like, was he burned? Had he been cut cut had he been abraded to the point where maybe or impacted on his body where maybe they lacerated the skin at some point in time that left a nasty tear in his skin any kind of evidence like that we look for in forensics because that literally is a road map to tell the history of him remember one of the things they always say about death investigators is that we speak for those who can no longer speak for themselves. And with this little baby, what's going on with him is the fact that he can't, but his body can.

And hopefully they have been able to harvest some great information post-mortem off of his body. Well, you know, take a listen to this. We know that on that night, the father said his son was, quote, only taking sips of water. And he would throw it up. That's a sign to stop drinking water. Again, I'm no MD. But if my child throws up the water, then I know to quit giving him water or her. And then when he threw up the water, the father demanded the little boy drink all the water and, quote, burp it out.

He forced him to chug the water. And our sources are saying four 24-ounce bottles of water. Four 24-ounce bottles of water within an hour. Take a listen now to our friends at Fox 21. The arrest warrants were issued yesterday and last night the two 41 year old Ryan Saban and 42 year old Tara Saban turned themselves in. They each have two children from previous marriages and then had two together. All six children between the ages of three and 16 were living at the home at the time. The child who passed away was Ryan Saban's son. The more details that come out as far as the arrest warrant being released and stuff like that,

I think everybody's going to see how truly sad this case is. Details in the arrest documents released Wednesday explained statements from the couple about how their 11-year-old son died. The two lived at this home north of Black Forest in El Paso County. The child's father told police his 11-year-old son was supposed to drink water due to his bed wetting issue and the night before he died he was flailing around putting on an act. In the stepmother's interview with police, she said the child used to do exercises which were given to him by a physical therapist, but he would get dramatic and throw tantrums about doing them. She said he

would cry and say he couldn't do them and throw himself on the floor. Really threw himself on the floor because the father told investigators he picked up his son and then, quote, dropped him on his head. Dropped him hitting his head. I don't believe that for one minute. Joining me is Lauren Scharf, Fox 21. Lauren, the parents have now been arrested. They gave a statement. The arrest affidavit says little Zachary suffered other physical abuse as well, as did the other five children.

What do you know, Lauren? So the coroner also noted that Zachary had multiple bruises from blunt force trauma, including contusions on his arm, legs, and near his left eye. And I also do want to point out that the coroner also noted that he was given 96 ounces of water over that four-hour period without food. Okay. Thank you. I like all the clarification I can get. So it is 96 ounces. So that is four bottles, we think, 24 ounces each over four hours. And I noticed that there was blood on the bed. Take a listen to our friend Curly Moore. According to the arrest papers on March 10th, the 11-year-old got in trouble for not drinking enough water and was told to drink more. The boy's father told police he was taking small sips and throwing up, saying the 11-year-old was drinking the water too slowly and that's why he was throwing up so he made him chug more.

The documents show the 11-year-old was told to keep drinking water while the rest of the family ate dinner. Those details are important to figure those things out and everybody's states of mind in a case. The father also said he kicked the 11-year-old a few times when he threw a fit. According to the affidavit, after being put to bed around 11 15 p.m. the night before, Ryan Saban called 911 just after 6 a.m. saying when he went down to check on the child there was blood and he was foaming out the mouth. He was cold and stiff. According to the arrest affidavit, authorities say Zachary's five siblings, age 2 to 15, were also victims of abuse. We're learning that and so much more about the death of this little boy.

Back to Freanne Hess, physician, child safety expert, founder of PettyMom.com. Dr. Hess, now you were saying earlier that that amount is a normal amount. I can't agree with that. 96 ounces of water over four hours? I never said 96 ounces of water in four hours is normal. I never said that. What I said was the 64 ounces that he had been given per day, which is what is in a lot of the media stories, that is a normal amount within a 24-hour period for an 11-year-old. Because the autopsy report does say 96 ounces.

No, I agree. I was trying to clarify because so many of the media stories are saying that the 64 ounces is what was abnormal, and that is not. The 96 ounces in four hours is extremely abnormal. 96 hours even in 24 hours is abnormal, but specifically speaking, 96 ounces of water in a four hour period runs a huge, huge risk for electrolyte imbalances. And I'm just going to take a quick moment to maybe make that a little bit more understandable for the, for the, we have a very specific amount of sodium, which is salt and potassium in in our body, along with other electrolytes. But those two specifically end up being kind of the main players in this, and more so sodium even than

potassium. So we have a nice balance in there, along with how much water we have in our body. The majority of our body is water. Our kidneys work really well to keep that maintained. When you add too much water too quickly, which has zero electrolytes, so that means it has zero sodium, zero potassium in it, it is just plain water, you actually disturb those electrolytes to the point where your sodium and potassium can drop. So we're worried a lot about the sodium here. That salt in your body ends up decreasing tremendously because you've added so much of a fluid without any electrolytes. Your kidneys can't keep up then. And then as a result, you end up getting

initial symptoms, which it sounds like he had of being confused, nauseous, vomiting, and even laughing out because they can become psychotic. So we initially had that. And then as this water intoxication progresses, then you start to see really significant organ damage due to that electrolyte abnormality. So you can end up having cardiac issues. So you can have arrhythmias, you can end up going into renal failure or kidney failure. And it goes on and on and on. As one organ then fails, it starts affecting another, and that's essentially what happens. Now, if you give that amount, the correct amount of 64 ounces max, but like I said, if the child is younger, it's less, eight ounces equal to the age. If you

give it over a day, your body has a lot more time to help balance that back out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about a little boy now dead, 11 years old, because his stepmother and father force fed him water till he died. He was foaming at the mouth. He was covered in bruises. He had a urine soaked diaper on when authorities arrived. There was blood in his bed, but they didn't notice any of that. This sounds like retaliation for the child not doing what the parents wanted him to do. He couldn't do it. He was vomiting up water, yet they continued to beat and kick him to make him drink the water.

It's not the first time you think, wow, of course you want your child to drink water. It's not the first time parents have used what would seem like a normal thing to torture their children. Take a listen to what happened to a nine-year-old little girl I investigated, Savannah Hardin. Last Friday afternoon, about 3 o'clock, nine-year-old Savannah Hardin comes home from elementary school with her grandmother. She was fine when she left school. She gets back to her house, and that's when investigators say the grandmother discovered that at some point we're not sure exactly when this was maybe it was friday maybe it was the day before the grandmother found out that savannah had had a candy bar now she was not supposed to have chocolate according to the

grandmother 46 year old joyce gerard because savannah had a bladder condition that they believed chocolate could exacerbate or make worse. So to punish her, according to investigators, Joyce Gerard began making her grandchild run around the house. And this continued, they say, for about three hours until she collapsed into a seizure about 645. That's when her stepmom, 26-year-old Jessica Harden, who, by the way, at the time was nine months pregnant, called 911 and says, my stepdaughter's having a seizure. Medics come out to the scene in rural Etowah County, northeast of Birmingham, take her to a local hospital. They decide she's in bad enough condition. They're going to airlift her to Children's Hospital in Birmingham. And that is where she died about noon on Monday.

That little girl, Savannah Harden, nine years old, was being forced to exercise. And it wasn't just jogging. They made her carry logs as she was jogging in the heat. And the mother stood by on the porch while all this happened until the little girl died because she ate a candy bar. Then we have the case of Charlie Bothell. Take a listen to our friends at WDIV. Charlie Bothell, the fourth, took a plea deal before Judge Margaret Van Houten. It's been a long road to this after he appeared on the Nancy Grace television show back in July of 2014 while looking for his missing son, Charlie Bothel V. Your son has been found in your basement.

Few in Metro Detroit will ever forget the lie of exchange. Oh, I have no idea. Yes, and according to reports, he would force his son to exercise, lift weights, exercise on a treadmill till exhaustion. To our psychologist joining us, New York psychologist Karen Stark at karenstark.com, what is this? A seemingly normal thing, like Lucy and I go and walks almost every day, and John David rides his bike while we're walking. How do you turn something like exercise or drinking water, which sound like good things, into torture. I remember when we covered this, Nancy, it's abuse. You're not abusive toward Lucy.

This is a father who never should have been able to raise a child because he can't do it. This child was repeatedly beaten. If you hear his testimony, it is one of the most horrific stories and very luckily in this case he survived and was able to tell his story. However, in this case, little Zachary is dead. Listen to News Channel 13. This is Julie Donovan. What exactly causes water intoxication? You drink too much H2O and your kidneys can't keep up. Then the water dilutes the salt and electrolytes in your body, pushing more water into your cells. The problem with that is that can cause the cells to swell and become damaged and that's what can cause the serious

outcomes. According to the El Paso County Coroner, Zachary Sabin died from forced water intoxication after his body was found in bed with bruises foaming at the mouth. You can drink quite a lot of water very safely, but to become water intoxicated, it really has to be an extraordinary large amount of water and usually taken very quickly. Zachary Sabin's father and stepmother, charged with his murder, told investigators the pediatrician instructed them to give him 12 cups of water in four hours to train him not to wet the bed. ER doctor Jennifer Vernon says she's skeptical that's all they gave him. That actually seems like it could even be a low amount of water. I bet it was more water than

that to cause that kind of outcome. Absolutely. Earlier I said Texas because of El Paso County. This is Colorado. The Colorado couple accused of killing their 11-year-old son by forcing him to drink large amounts of water. Also, back to Dr. Freon Hess, physician and child safety expert. The earlier case I was talking about with Charles Bothell, twice a day, every day, the 12-year-old had to complete a workout. 100 push-ups, 200 sit-ups, 100 jumping jacks, 25 curls on each arm with a 25 pound weight, and thousands, literally thousands of evolutions on an elliptical machine. If he did not finish all of that, he would have to start over. We know that he had been beaten, disciplined, as the father said, with a PVC pipe, sometimes making him so sore he could not even sit

or walk. Have you seen cases, Dr. Hess, where parents take what seems to be a good thing, like exercise or drinking water, to the extreme and use it as torture? I have, unfortunately. Being a physician in the pediatric emergency department leads you to see a lot of pretty horrific things. And I have seen cases similar to this, especially with the exercise issue, because oftentimes they come in with medical issues as a result of overexercising, which is very much a thing and which can be deadly, which is what we saw in the nine-year-old little girl. There's a lot of different things that can happen when somebody forces a child or anybody really, but especially a child, to exercise to excess. And none of those things are good. I want to go back to Lauren Scharf, Fox 21, Colorado Springs. Lauren, tell me about the charges against the evil stepmother and the

father. So that first degree murder charge has actually been dropped for Tara Sabin. So now she just faces the child abuse resulting in death of Zachary Sabin. And then also she faces additional five misdemeanor child abuse charges. Ryan Saban still has that first degree murder charge. He still doesn't have bond. Now Tara Saban has a $50,000 bond. Also, the medical examiner said in court that Tara and Ryan should have sought medical attention when Zachary started showing symptoms like a headache, vomiting, the inability to talk or sleep. And the defense also argued Zachary's symptoms could have been consistent with kidney failure, but the medical examiner said, nope, she didn't see any sign of kidney malfunction.

Back to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer at ncdomesticlaw.com. Kathleen Murphy, listen carefully to what we're learning from just released police documents. We're learning that Zach's father and stepmother said doctors told them to give Zachary 12 cups of water in four hours to train him not to wet the bed. I've never heard of that, ever. Well, instead of putting on my lawyer hat, I'm going to put on my mommy hat. And if my child is literally incapacitated from drinking something and in pain and suffering,

I'm going to get a second opinion. I'm not going to do that to my kid. But I have to even go back, Nancy. This is a case where I think the prosecutor should look at the past with these parents and the other children that are in the home, and there will be, in all likelihood, a pattern of abuse. Oh, absolutely. We've already seen that. There are documents that state the other siblings have been abused as well. But there is no way this is not premeditated murder. Premeditation can be formed in a twinkling of a moment, the blink of an eye, the time it takes to raise the gun and pull the trigger,

as I like to tell juries. They stood by and forced fed this child water till he died. This is murder one. Shame, shame on whoever dropped charges of murder one against the mother. May they both rot in

hell. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.