Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DEFENSE: MANGIONE'S 'BEAUTIFUL, PROMISING LIFE DERAILED' BY MURDER CHARGES

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Luigi Mangione's defense team describes his "beautiful, promising life" as "derailed" by the murder charges against him. This phrasing is not highlighted as a saying from Mangione's groupies, but as a phrase coming from Mangione's attorney as part of a legal motion filed to dismiss the federal case or get the death penalty tossed. As part of an evidence suppression hearing in the upcoming trial of Luigi Mangione, prosecutors play a 911 call placed by the manager of a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. The McDonald's manager is not identified, and the hearing is the first time the 911 call is played in public.  The manager is apologetic as she tells the 911 operator she tried the non-emergency line first and continues taking orders as she tells the operator, "I have a customer here some other customers were suspicious of because he looks like the CEO shooter in New York. And they're just really upset and come to me, and I'm like, I can't approach him." The 911 operator, Emily States, testifies and is heard asking for a description of the individual, with the manager replying, "The only thing you can see is the eyebrows." Mangione's defense attorney, Marc Agnifilo, objects to the 911 call being played, but the judge says he is allowing the call for this hearing.  Mangione enters the courtroom in shackles, but the judge allows Mangione to sit unshackled and take notes at the defense table.  Long lines outside the courthouse filled with women and men supporters trying to enter the hearing, hoping to get a glimpse of the alleged CEO murderer. Mangione's defense team is trying to prevent several key pieces of evidence from being allowed at trial, like the comment about the 3-D printed pistol. Angifilo claims conversations with correction officers were illegally coerced and should not be allowed. The defense claims Mangione is questioned for 20 minutes by Altoona Police Officer Joseph Detwiler without being read his Miranda rights.  Therefore, prosecutors should not be allowed to introduce any testimony about statements made by Mangione to police. Joining Nancy Grace: Skye Lazaro - Criminal Defense Attorney - with experience in both federal and state cases, Law Firm: Ray, Quinney & Nebeker; Facebook: SkyeBeth, Instagram: SkyeBeth1 Dr. Judy Ho - Clinical and Forensic Neuropsychologist, Author of 'The New Rules of Attachment'; and 'Stop Self-Sabatoge;' IG & X: @drjudyho; FB: doctorjudyho Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of "Zone 7;" X: @149zone7 Tom Smith - Former NYPD Detective for 30 years - Narcotics, Robbery Squad, Gang Investigations - was also assigned to the FBI/NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force. Co-Host of the GOLD SHIELDS Podcast; FB & Instagram: @thegoldshieldshow Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic Kayla Brantley -  Reporter-At-Large for DailyMail.com; X: @_KaylaBrantley, Instagram: @KaylaBrantley Dave Mack - Crime Online Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The defense for the alleged assassin Luigi Mangione actually gets up in court and talks about how Mangione is the victim, actually claiming with a straight face that his quote, beautiful, promising lie. has been derailed by those pesky murder charges. Wow. I wonder how the murder victim's family is feeling about right now. He's leaving behind a wife and two sons. And Luigi Mangione's defense team claims he's the victim. And I haven't even got started on what they are trying to have thrown out of evidence so a jury will never hear the truth. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime.

stories. I want to thank you for being with us. What is the address of your emergency? It's not really an emergency. I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of, that he looks like the CEO shooter, New York. Okay. Straight out to Kayla Brantley joining us, investigative reporter at large, daily mail.com. Did they actually say in court that their client, Luigi Mangione, is the victim because his quote beautiful promising life has been derailed yeah nancy as you mentioned

his team did paint him as someone with a promising future now one thing that had been documented was that luigi suffered from debilitating back pain this was something that he went through he went through back surgery and one thing that they say here is that the real enemy here is the medical system. And that is one thing that you can definitely expect his legal team to argue. Kayla, could I believe you or my lion eyes? Control room, please. Show me him running along the beach in Hawaii. I've got videos of him lifting up girls and tickling them. It's a video. They're all giggling hysterically, including him. I've got photos of him lounging by the beach. I'd love to see those photos of him high.

and what looks to be a jungle rainforest. Oh, he is feeling no pain there, Kayla Brantley. I hope you don't fall for that hook-langing seeker. Dr. Judy Ho, did you know that Luigi Mangione is apparently the victim in this scenario? Dr. Judy Ho is joining us, clinical forensic neuropsychologist, author of The New Rules of Attachment and another bestseller, Stop Self-Sabotage. You need to write one, Dr. Judy Ho, about try to tell the truth. and then send it, you know, I'll pay for it, and we can send it to Luigi Mangione. He is not the victim here. But, you know, you can't count out the defense attorney Agnefellow.

He got Sean Combs off on the major accusations in that indictment. So, no matter how ridiculous, I may think he sounds, he essentially won that case. Yes, it's his defense team that claims Luigi Mangione is the victim. I want to read it, Dr. Judy Ho. Beautiful, promising life derailed by those irritating murder charges, Judy. Wow, beautiful, promising life, Nancy. What a narrative. And as you said, even though he's not the victim, I think this is why there has been a fan base, though,

because there's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is a victim, that he's some type of anti-hero, that he's misunderstood. And oftentimes we see this in individual. who might act charismaticically. They just seem to pull people in. And it's weird because a lot of these people who develop this sort of fan, fanhood around Luigi, they're kind of thinking, well, maybe I can be a special person in his life.

Maybe he'll pay attention to me. Maybe I can even develop a friendship with this person. This person might learn to trust me. It's really interesting, but some of it actually has to do with a self-centeredness of people who might actually talk to him, to him that they're hoping to get something special out of it for themselves. I'm sorry, Dr. Judy Ho, I know you're the clinical and forensic neuropsychologist,

but I don't even know what you just said. How can the defense stand up and say, this is not about the murder victim? Can we show, please? Brian Thompson walking along and he's gunned down in cold blood, leaving behind two sons and a wife, that's the victim. According to prosecutors,

it's Luigi Mangione holding a 3D weapon that he made, that it took dozens and dozens of hours to make so he can gun down a guy walking to work in the back. You stated,

I don't know what that was, Dr. Judy Ho. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I'm just a trial lawyer, didn't understand it, but I think I know some of the people that can consider Luigi Mangione to be the victim. And here they are filing into court. Okay. Oh, what? Luigi fights fascists. Okay. Look at this line. Now wait till you see the catwalk parade of sad sack women filing in to, they wouldn't even show their face, to get a glimpse of Luigi

Mangione. Yes. Keep it going. Keep it going. Because I've got hours of people. Yeah, that was totally walking the catwalk right there, clamoring to get in to just bask in the glow of Luigi Mangione. Oh, it keeps going. Yeah. On and on. They had to turn women away. And it's not just women. Listen. So this is who police believe was responsible for the United Health Care CEO, Pupu. His name's Luigi. All I can say is, um, mamma mea. Does he need a Mario? I'm kidding. I believe it was a great philosopher and poet once said, Mama, I'm in love with a criminal. And this type of love isn't rational, it's physical. That was Britney Spears. And I believe we're all feeling that right now. I believe if you're going to do superhero like shit, you better look like one, okay?

This man clearly did that. Did he train at the Marvel Studios with all the other Chris's? Okay? Because Luigi, that's a spicy meat bowl. I'm so sorry. I believe if we were going to claim to be a Christian nation, that we need to act like one. And part of acting like that is practicing forgiveness.

And after a lot of seconds of thinking, I have decided I'm going to forgive him. I'm ready to forgive him, right? But not forget, because, my God, how could you forget an angel like this? I'm not going to lie, for a while I thought, oh my God, we're never going to find him, you know? And I was wrong. Because somewhere along the way, the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the masks and no masks,

this man, he found a way into our hearts. He did. I hardly even know where to start with that. That is from Mr. Williams Spreck on TikTok. I'm in love with the criminal, and I forgive him after a few seconds of consideration. Dr. Judy Ho, I can't say it gets worse, but there's more. Listen. You can't take my man.

That's from Scarlet Park TikTok. So it's gone beyond calling him a spicy meatball. These people actually consider Luigi Mangione their man, and they are angry with the feds for prosecuting. Have I gone down the rabbit hole? Am I in some crazy bizarre Alice in Wonderland? What is happening, Dr. Judy Ho?

I know it seems completely unbelievable, Nancy, but this does happen. People start to idolize these potential, uh, I mean, clearly, this is a defendant, right? But they're thinking in their minds, this person is innocent. Maybe I'm going to be their special person. And they're lusting after them the way that they would lust after a celebrity, especially when they see photos and videos that they can start cutting into their own social media. They're developing a fictionalized relationship with him, a fantasy. And essentially completely erasing all of the facts that have been evident in this case.

And clearly the defendant's attorneys are trying to paint that picture as well, leaning into it as hard as possible because they're hoping to influence the public opinion even before a jury is selected so that they can hopefully get him the outcome that he wants, which is apparently to escape a death sentence, escape prison maybe. I'm not sure exactly what they think is possible, but that's what's so scary about all the positivity that is developed around his persona in terms of all of these illustrations. The website they set up about him, it's really concerning. And you know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, founder, author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer,

solving the cold case of the Flint River Killers' Daughter on Amazon. Cheryl, okay, do you remember the night that you and I were out until, what, 2 o'clock in the morning, staking out a location where we thought Luigi Mangione was going to be apprehended. Do you remember that night? Because I sure do. I do. How has this gotten so bas-acquards, Cheryl? Nancy, it is mind-boggling

that anybody is trying to paint this killer as the victim. I mean, the victim's life was not just promising. It was in full swing. He had a wife and children and a career at the highest level, he had friends and extended family. He had everything going for him.

Mangione had none of that, but he took everything from those children. And I'm going to tell you something, when you look at the people that are contacting him, I hope and pray that those 6,000 letters that he's gotten, that 115 a day, that there's some good intel in there, too, because he is writing people back. So he's communicating, and I hope they're listing every piece of it.

Somehow, this has gotten topsy-turvy upside down. I haven't even gotten into the legal implications of what is happening in court. I'm just so concerned that one of these nut jobs is going to end up on the ultimate jury. and acquit Luigi Mangione under the misconception that he is somehow the victim. Again, in court, his lawyers, and I'm quoting, claim that his beautiful, promising life has been derailed by murder charges. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me. This is a millionaire's son, multi-millionaire who grew up with a silver. spoon stuck in his mouth and has been living in a Hawaii high rise on the beach, doing nothing.

And yet he's the victim. Can you imagine Cheryl McCollum how hard Thompson had to work to get to become the CEO at United Healthcare? It wasn't handed to him on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree like it was Mangione. He had to work and sacrifice long, long hours to get get to where he got to to be gunned down like a dog on the sidewalk, Cheryl? Nancy, you cannot compare these two people. That's why I agree with you. This whole thing is upside down. Not only did the victim work and sacrifice, so did his wife. You know what it takes. You know how long David has gone during the day. It's not an eight-hour day. It's a 16-17-hour day. He was playing at the top of his game. There's no doubt.

about it. Mangione was giving nothing to a family. He was giving nothing to society. He was contributing zero. And again, what he took cannot even be measured. If I hear one more person talk about his back pain, that's you, Calla Brantley. I think my head's going to blow off because I have videos of him tickling these girls and picking them up just before the shooting. I can't show it because it has the girls' faces in it. But he was feeling no pain. But it's all about me, me, me, me, me, me. Why me?

And he's certainly not the first. Let me refresh your recollection, as we say in court, with Bridekiller Jamie Lee Komorowski. Listen to her. I still just don't know why this has happened to me. Because bad things happen to good people, huh? that's why. It's just, it's just faith. It's just something that happened to you and we are going to deal with it the best we can. Okay. Dave Mack joining me, crime stories investigative

reporter. You know who the bride killer is, right? Jamie Lee Komoroski, she's guilty. She got totally stinking drunk and plowed into a beautiful bride leaving her wedding reception with the groom and killed her. And there she is behind bars going, why is this happening to me? One look and listen to her father, Nancy. What does he say? Well, bad things happen to good people. No, they don't. You just killed somebody because of your own actions. But see, we've got a whole group of people now that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything is on them. How can you possibly think? Manjone is sitting here saying his life is derailed?

Well, he destroyed another life and another family. Comorowski sitting in jail. Why is this happening to me? Well, why not? What did you expect would happen? Sick of this, Nancy. It's getting really tiresome. And there is her victim, Samantha Miller,

in her wedding dress just before she's mowed down dead by Jamie Lee Comoroski. And here's, I guess, this would have to be the Miss Universe of Why Me. Jody Arias. Check her out. She is more concerned about her makeup as she is approaching trial in the brutal stabbing and cheating death of her fiancé, Travis Alexander, who was stabbed at least 29 times. Joe Scott Morgan and I have argued about that. I say it was more than that. Check it out. Jody Arias, you should have at least done your makeup before you speak to police about murdering your fiancé when he broke up. and started seeing someone else that earlier video from 48 hours.

Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, do you recall Travis Alexander's death? Hey, stay on that video because as they're about to question her about what could have happened to Travis Alexander, she starts singing and there you go, does a headstand and bemoans the fact she doesn't have on her lip gloss. Talk about me, me, me, Joe Scott, what happened to Travis? Yeah, he was brutally murdered. Nancy. She had him stripped down nude, taking a shower, taking dirty pictures, if you will. And while his back is turned, she takes a knife and plunges it into his back over and over and over again.

When he turns around to defend himself to try to parry her stabs at him, he gets stabbed in the chest as well. And if it wasn't enough after he spits up blood onto his sink, onto his sink, He crawls, tries to crawl away from her. Down the hallway, she straddles him and cuts his throat from ear to ear. And the kudagra, she shoots him after he is dead. That's the kind of human that you're looking at right here. She's absolutely disgusting. And it's all about me, me, me, me.

Joe Scott Morgan, you've seen it all. I'm going to try to show you something you haven't seen yet. Speaking of me, me, me, and criminal defendants, focusing only on themselves and not their victims. There is the drunk, stinking drunk, A.D.A. Assistant District Attorney Devin Flanagan, listen to her. We got to go. Let's go.

The citizen protocol is, is if we ask you to, what the protocol is, and your protocol is if I ask you to turn off the body cam, you have to turn it off. And that's your protocol. She's a. So she knows. Well, that's a. Lawyer stuff. So that's not true.

So we got to go. No. It is. That's law. I'm an A.J. I'm an A.J. Good for you. Those two were kicked out of, I think it was a bar for being drunk and belligerent.

Then you've got, oh gosh, she's been called the screaming banshee. And do you hear going, I'm an ADA, I'm an ADA. Every sentence starts with I, I, I, I. Listen to this woman, Joe Scott. He needs to not touch me. If he wants to call assault, we're going to go through that route. No, he wants to go through assault. No, we're not doing that then.

No, he claims I assaulted him. Nope, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. And then, of course, maybe this one beats Jody Arias. No, no, no. I'm going to have to go with Luigi Mangione and his beautiful life derailed. I'm sure you would call Shana Hubers

that gave her ex-boyfriend the, quote, nose job he always wanted with a handgun. Listen. It's very vain. One of our last conversations we had that was good was that he wants my best friend of the dentist to do with the nears and want to get a nose job. Just that kind of person. And I shot him right here. I gave him his nose job. He wanted...

You know, would have never want to marry me if they know that I killed a boyfriend and helped. It's not funny, but I'm not your typical murder, you know. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics and Death Investigator, your forte, is dead bodies and causes of death and modes of death. Let me go to special guests joining us now, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Angie Arnold, what is that? I don't know if you saw this for yourself,

but Mangione's defensive team is actually arguing his life was derailed by the murder charges. You know, Nancy, my thought is that's all they've got. Who cares if his life was derailed? He is accused of murdering someone. Maybe his life should be derailed. But the way I feel about this is, Nancy, that's all they've got to say. That is the only thing they've got.

I've seen photos of Luigi Mangione practicing yoga, tickling multiple girls in a hallway all at once. Every shot I see of him, he's out in nature. He's not at work. We keep hearing he quit his job. He quit his job. He was laid off. Gee, I wonder why.

Maybe the job interfered with the tickling. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Throughout this week, Luigi Mangione and his defense team have been fighting it out in court to get a lot of evidence suppressed. Forget about all the sad sight women lined up to get in. Forget about the martyrdom of Luigi Mangione. Let's talk about the facts and the law. Listen. Making orders, as she tells the operator,

I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of that he looks like the CEO shooter in New York. And they're just really upset and come to me, and I'm like, I can't approach him. The manager continues working and can be heard talking about bagels at one point shouting, one of them is no butter. The 911 operator, Emily States,

testifies about the call and is heard to ask for a description with the manager replying, the only thing you can see is the eyebrows. Joining us is Skye Lazzaro. She's a veteran criminal defense attorney. She's practicing both state and federal court. She is with Ray, Quinny, and Nebucher. Sky, thank you for being with us. If the defense is arguing that Luigi Mangione was illegally arrested,

the 911 call occurred before the arrest. So what could be the possible grounds for suppressing that call by the McDonald's manager? I think they're going to have a really hard time keeping the 911 call out. I can understand it from a defense perspective. You have to try. But when it comes to 911 calls, as long as you can lay the foundation for it, it's probably coming in. I can tell you one thing.

I know Sky Lazaro that they hate about this 911 call. We had the same thing happen in the Idaho slayings of four beautiful Idaho University students where Dylan Whartonson described Brian Coburger's freaky bushy eyebrows. Listen. I just remember seeing this figure that was like not fat, obviously, but more of like the skinnier tongue build and some mask on. I don't know what the mask exactly was, but when I thought about it, it was just like covering here and here. I don't know if it was covering his mouth, his nose, or below his mouth and nose.

I just remember knowing that he was white, but I didn't know how he was white. I just knew he was white. I just knew he was looked at me because of a bushy eye. That's all I remember. Joining me is Tom Smith, former NYPD Detective 30 years. now star of the Gold Shields podcast, and he covered the very same streets where Brian Thompson was gunned down in cold blood. You know, I have had a killer identified,

it was a chef, by the way, identified by a particular limp that he had. I've had a bank robber identified because he walked slew-footed. In other words, like a does. There are all sorts of ways to identify someone. It can be by voice. It could be any number of things.

In this case, the McDonald's manager said, bushy eyebrows, and there's no doubt that's Luigi Mangione. They hate it. They hate that identification, Tom. Yeah, they do, because, you know, it shows how important, Nancy, and we did this when we first started talking about this case. how important the videos and all the photos were to get out to the public, even if his face was covered, even if he was in a cab or whatever it was, because those eyebrows jumped off the page to everyone who looked at it. That was the number one thing that everyone looked at as a looking point and identification point when it came to him.

And it just showed that the quicker they got those photos out, the better it was in the end of this. You know, I'm very curious about this. The fact that he is identified at McDonald's by his eyebrows, among other things. Let's see the pictures of the McDonald's. There you go. There he is at McDonald's. But, Sky Lazaro, don't you think that the defense should be more concerned about the fact that he can be identified at the time of the killing?

He showed his face repeatedly. I agree with you. he probably should have been a little bit more careful at that time, and that should be the stuff they're seeking to exclude. And maybe they will. I think as it goes to the 911 call, the defense's probably only argument is that these are witnesses who identified him, not from the shooting. They weren't there that night. So they can't say, I saw him do the shooting. They just want to exclude it because he's at the McDonald's. The problem is they get to the McDonald's, and it turns out to be him. Speaking of getting to the McDonald's, the defense is arguing that while he wasn't really under arrest, he was kind of under arrest because so many police started showing up and massing at the McDonald's. They were concerned if this is Luigi Mangione, the health care assassin, he's probably armed. And as a matter of fact, he was. He was armed. There was a weapon in his backpack sitting right there with him.

So they were right. Now, what the defense is arguing is that having multiple police, multiple police officers show up is tantamount equal to arresting him. Why do we care? Because police engage in a conversation with him to identify him, and he spilled a lot of information in that conversation. The state says it was before his arrest. Why does it matter? Because a statement taken while you are in custody without Miranda will be suppressed. So they want the judge to believe that because several police officers showed up at McDonald's, that Mangeoni was effectively under arrest and any statements he made pre-Miranda should be suppressed. That's not going to happen. When I walk into, let's just pretend a Chipotle. And all the Atlanta PD are in there getting a salad.

I don't feel like I'm under arrest. Think about it. Listen. Manjone stares at monitors showing his arrest at McDonald's. Manjone sits to eat breakfast at 903. 11 minutes later, the 911 call is made. 928, two police officers show up and begin talking to Manjone. The restaurant slowly begins to fill with police until 942,

when at least eight officers are visible on the recording. The defense claims packing the place with police amounts to unlawful detention prior to Manjone's arrest. Agnifalo argues police surrounding Manjone and the McDonald's is tantamount to illegally detaining the alleged killer. Agnifalo also takes exception with the way officers treated Manjone's backpack during the arrest, claiming it was warrantlessly searched on the scene. In other words, they looked in his backpack. Cheryl McCollum joining me, she is not only a crime scene investigator and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, but she is also the star of a hit podcast, which I actually put on a loop

sometimes, Cheryl McCollum, Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, has it ever dawned on you when you go into McDonald's for a cup of coffee that you're arresting somebody? That your mere presence equals an arrest? Because that's what they're arguing. And what they're trying to do, Cheryl, is get out from under what Mangione said to police

pre-Miranda and them finding evidence in his backpack. I think the body cam is going to be so critical here because it's going to show all of his action. It's going to, you know, show the world that he stood up and thought he was under arrest. Only a guilty person would think that, Nancy. What the defense is doing is there basically, look, you use manure to make something grow, right? So they are planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim, that he didn't do anything, that he was under arrest,

but now we can't use anything, and it's just BS. While this legal warfare is taking place in a courtroom, Mangione's attorneys continue to insist that he's the victim. He's a young man, and he is being treated

like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here, and they're literally treating him like he is, like some sort of political. political fodder, like some sort of spectacle. He was on display for everyone to see in the biggest staged perp walk I've ever seen in my career.

There was no reason for the NYPD and everybody to have these big assault rifles that, frankly, I had no idea it was in their arsenal. And to have all of these, the press there, the media there, it was like perfectly choreographed. And what was the New York City Mayor doing at this press conference? He is a walking-talking contradiction. He supposedly is against this wealthy CEO, yet who comes for money.

This is a guy living in a high rise in Finalulu, waking up to the beach every morning. Did you wake up to a beach for you this morning because I sure do not. The Luigi Mangione defense is fighting tooth and nail to keep out what happened in that McDonald's. And as Cheryl McComb is pointing out, that body cam is going to be so significant. Because it doesn't matter what the state says. It doesn't matter what the defense says or how much. Luigi Mangione claims he's the victim. What matters is what really happened inside that McDonald's. They're not going to get the 911 call suppressed. That's not happening. But what happened in the

McDonald's is the state going to lose valuable evidence on illegal technicality. Why is it they want that backpack suppressed? Straight out to investigator at large for daily mail.com, Killa Brantley, What was in the backpack? Nancy, there was a 3D printed gun. It's a handgun, which is believed to could possibly be the murder weapon. There was a notebook with handwritten notes in it. And then he also had a knife on him, which was discovered about 20 minutes later. So he was armed.

And at that point, he was considered very dangerous. Okay, hold on. What did you say was written Imagione's spiral notebook that was in his backpack? That he wanted and he used. the word whack, the healthcare CEO. WAC meaning kill, hurt, destroy. No wonder they want it suppressed. To Dave Mack, a crime stories investigative reporter, tell me about the 3D gun, sometimes called a ghost gun. Well, Nancy, you know, we've been, we have not been given the very specifics of what type of gun. We know it's a pistol, but we don't know the exact

name of it. 3D printed firearms take a massive amount of time and filament far more than any other. The Liberator is the most common and it's the easiest one to print and takes the shortest amount of time. The Liberator takes 30 hours of constant printing with nonstop printing, Nancy, 30 hours to print the easiest of all the pistols. Tom Smith, here's the thing with a ghost gun is made on a 3D printer, Tom. It's un-serialized. That's why they're so popular amongst criminals. You think Grandpa has his long gun, his shotgun under the bed.

You think it's a 3D printed gun? No, it's got a serial number. Why is it so serious that a ghost gun is un-serialized? Well, because you can't trace it. No matter what you do with that weapon, it cannot be traced back to you. And that is why so many criminals and Luigi Maggioni, of course, went to the lengths that he did to make that gun, because that is the predetermined and premeditation of it already. He's already thinking ahead of that gun not being traced to him.

And that is part of this as well. Tom Smith, you're exactly correct to Joseph Scott Morgan. And let me introduce him formally. He is a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a death investigator that has handled thousands of death scenes. And he's a star of hit podcast, bodybacked to Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, what is a suppressor or commonly known as a silencer? Yeah, I stay away from the term silencer because no weapon is silenced. It is suppressed. That means that the crack of the sound, you're talking about a perhaps supersonic round. It's traveling, you know, past the speed of sound. So what you want to do is reduce that sound that's put forth from the muzzle. If you take a close look, I'm glad that you have that image, you take a close look at that weapon there. the end of that muzzle is actually threaded.

What that means is, is that it's adaptable. It's adaptable to contain a suppressor. The suppressor is displayed here. It's that long black cylindrical object there. It can be screwed on on the end. Well, you want to knock down the sound, so it's not going to draw attention to you when you fired this thing.

Because let's just say that it is a non-suppressed weapon. This thing's going to echo through the canyons down there in Manhattan, through all of those buildings you'll still hear a sound but it'll be a slight crack it's not like it's portrayed in movies okay but it will reduce the sound it doesn't completely eliminate it and the purpose of this is so that you're not going to draw attention to anyone it does reduce uh say some of the capabilities of the weapon as far as the effectiveness of it at a greater range but this is this is not a close range as a matter of fact if we were to look at the body here, it would be classified as indeterminate because you're not going to have any kind

of sut deposition, gun unpronged gunpowder. It will have fallen away by that time. But this is not too distant of a shot. You'll still have that same muzzle velocity striking into Brian Thompson's body. It's effectively lethal. Joining me now, the star of Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl McCollum is with us. Cheryl, who has un-serialized guns and silencers? Criminals. And Nancy, there's another thing. Even though this is a 3D printed weapon, it's still going to leave marking on casins. And they're going to be able to be, you know, determined that this weapon fired the bullets that murdered Brian Thompson.

So, forensically, it's not going to get you out of trouble. They may not can trace it to a manufacturer to a buyer, but they can absolutely determine that that bullet was fired by that weapon. Cheryl McCollum, you're so right. And Tom Smith, this is like a fish in water for you. Every day you were getting off the streets of Manhattan guns to match with bullets. Bullets that were literally dug out of victims' bodies. and Cheryl said it right, a bullet hurls down the barrel of a gun. That gun might look like all the

other guns in the gun store showcase, but it's not. Because inside the barrel, the metal has cooled in a certain way, and it leaves ridges and imperfections on the inside of the barrel. And as that bullet shoots down the barrel, it is forever marked by those imperfections. So when you take the murder weapon to the crime lab and you shoot a bullet through the murder weapon, and you take the known bullet, dug out of the victim, and you put it under a microscope next to the one you just shot, it's like a fingerprint. No other gun, be it a 3D printed gun, a grandma's best out from under her mattress, you can track and identify like a fingerprint. That bullet came from that gun. Isn't that true? 100%. And that's the best way to say it. It's the gun's fingerprint

and the ballistic check of that in the twist marks and all of that is what you match up. And it is a fingerprint that is unmatchable to anyone else. It is strictly to that weapon that you will match up the weapon taken, the ground taken out of the victim and match it up. And that is damaging when it comes to court. Oh, yeah. And Tom Smith, that is why they are fighting to the death in court to keep that jury from ever knowing of a ballistics match that his 3D printed gun is the murder weapon. Listen to Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney.

For nearly an hour, we alleged the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton Hotel, waiting for Mr. Thompson to appear. From 6.38 a.m. to 6.44 a.m., the defendant stood across from the entrance of the hotel on West 54th Street. When he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind. We allege he then took out a 9-millimeter 3D-printed ghost gun, equipped with a 3-D-printed suppressor, and shot him once in the back and once in the leg. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What about his beach bum life just before the assassination? Right around the time he disappeared, he traipsed off to Asia and he went on a backpacking trip.

The beach bum photos and the $2,000 a month high rise and the frolicing in Honolulu. Oh, my goodness. He might as well have bunked up with the wrists. Calla Brantley, Daily Mail. The defense for Luigi Mangione is also trying to suppress statements he allegedly made to his guards. He had special guards behind bars, so nothing would happen to him like it did to Epstein. So let's first talk about Thomas Rivers, the former British infantryman who was minding Mangione. What did Mangione allegedly say to Rivers?

Nancy Luigi was held for 10 days in Pennsylvania, and he had spoken about being very disappointed that he was being compared to the Unabomber. He also said that mainstream media was more focused on crime, and that when you looked at social media, they were really more focused about the healthcare industry, which according to this officer is what Luigi said this was really about.

Wow. Sounds like a confession to me, Sky Lazaro. Oopsie. Nancy, I agree and disagree. Here's the problem. They put these guys in a situation like that in solitary where they can't talk to anybody else. And the other thing is that we know these officers didn't document any of this. They're supposed to be taking notes seven times an hour about what he's doing and his well-being. And they don't write down anything. Like he just made an admission? um sky lazaro did you say it's a problem he's being held in solitary you know who else is in solitary brian thompson except his is a casket so you're telling me again i can't believe you're buying into this sky lazaro that he's the one that's being tormented you know what else he told rivers that rivers should

really read doors of perception by aldous huxley which is all about um psychedelic drug trips and mystical interpretations. Needless to say, Rivers did not read the book. But there is another guard that he talked to. This is the one I'm really interested in. Listen. Officer Matt Henry wasn't chatty with the alleged killer. That doesn't stop Manjone from telling Henry.

He was caught with a 3D printed firearm. The weapon used to murder CEO Brian Thompson. attorney mark agnifalo challenges henry saying so he just blurted out to you that he had a 3d printed pistol henry dryly replies yes to dr angela arnold joining us she's a renowned psychiatrist out of the atlanta jurisdiction at angela arnold dot com former professor psychiatry it goes on and on former medical director at the psychiatric obgy y inclin at grady which never has a lack of business i found a lot of witnesses and victims at Grady Hospital. Dr. Angela Arnold, why is it so hard? I bet a jury's not going to have a hard time believing this that Luigi Mangione, who has had a lifetime of entitlement, would blab to his guards.

Why? They're his new friends. They would never betray him, right? Yeah. Oh, sure. And, you know, Nancy, he probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder where in which he thinks about himself an awful lot. So he really doesn't, he may not see that he's done anything wrong. And he probably hasn't suffered any consequences for any of his actions in the past.

And so that would make him more likely to almost be bragging about what he's done and to let other people know what he's done. This is typical for his behavior in all likelihood throughout his existence. Tom Smith joining me. former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star co-hosts of Gold Shields podcast. Tom,

what is wrong with rich people? Do they think they can just get away with everything, anything and everything? They can confess, they can say, yeah, they caught me with the 3D printed gun, which is the murder weapon.

What is wrong with them? Have you noticed the same sense of entitlement? sometimes does them in because they think they can buy off everybody that everybody wants to be their friend. But these two guards do not want to be his friend. Yeah, they've lived their whole life like this, Nancy. You know, they've gotten what they want. They need to pay for it or the power that they have has influenced someone's decision into what they're getting or what they're doing. And they just think that holds true for every aspect of their life, including killing someone.

I mean, that's how deranged they are when it comes to the entitlement that they believe they are owed. When it comes to murder or, you know, killing a bride, we did that show. You know, it's just constant and it just keeps coming up and it's absolutely disgusting. Tom, I want you to look at a picture if I can get the control room to put it up for me. Dig through those files. I want to see the picture of allegedly Mangiani, who is presumed innocent, holding up the 3D with. a silencer on it, pointing directly at Brian Thompson's back. According to police, he waited an hour for just the right moment. There's his backpack, which was recovered at the McDonald's.

There's his outfit, which he had with him. There's the 3D weapon. And let's look at Brian Thompson walking along early morning, going to a work conference. he shot in the back right there. And I'm not going to play that when he actually gets shot because someday, somehow, his boys might look this up online and I don't want this to be stuck in their

memory. Tella Brantley were any of Manjianli's family members in court and were any of the victim's family members in court this week. Not that we know of Nancy, but a lot of Luigi's supporters. And one thing, have you heard of pretty privilege? Because it absolutely feels like Luigi is benefiting from that by having hordes of fans

because he is a handsome man, that he is benefiting from pretty privilege. And I'm sure his defense team is happy that they have a relatively attractive man as a client. Kayla, I don't find him attractive. Every time I look at him, I see a tail swishing in the back and two horns right here. That's what I see. What is happening in court this week is critical. If this evidence is suppressed, there may be no justice in this case. A man shot down on the sidewalk, on video, and no justice. We wait as justice unfolds But now we remember An American Hero

Reserve Deputy Sheriff John Stahl Jefferson County Sheriff's Indiana killed in the line of duty After 15 years of service Leaving behind A devastated wife turned widow

American Hero Reserve Deputy Sheriff John Stahl Nancy Grace signing off Goodbye friend This is an iHeart This is an I-heart podcast Guaranteed human