Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Delphi Man, 50, Charged in Double Homicide of Teen Girls, Abby and Libby

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

It's been over five years since two Delphi girls, Abby Williams and Libby German, were murdered near a popular hiking trail across Monon High Bridge. Today,  law enforcement announce an arrest in the case as 50-year-old Richard M. Allen remains behind bars, charged with two counts of murder. The probable cause affidavit has been sealed, so evidence linking him to the crime is not yet available to the public. Allen has pleaded not guilty and is expected back in court in January.  Police say the investigation into the Delphi Murders is still ongoing and the tip line in the case will remain open.  Anyone with additional information can email [e-mail] or call 765-822-3535 Joining Nancy Grace Today: Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags;" 'Today with Dr. Wendy" on KCBQ in San Diego; Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Netflix show: "Bling Empire" (Beverly Hills) Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet;" Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker; Twitter: @swimmie2009 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Today is the day. That is the quote we have heard over and over and over from Abby and Liberty, also known as Libby's family. The Delphi murders forever ingrained in our memories, but today a major turn in the case. Literally in the last hour, murder charges have been announced. Take a listen to Superintendent Doug Carter of the Indiana State Police. Some do I have prepared remarks, but today is different because I do not want to be there to be any confusion or ambiguity with what I will say. Today is not a day to celebrate, but the arrest of Richard M. Allen of Delphi on two counts of murder is sure a major step in leading to the conclusion

of this long-term and complex investigation. You heard it from the horse's mouth. A long-term and complex investigation has culminated in the arrest of Richard M. Allen, a.k.a. Rick Allen, a.k.a. Ricky Allen, the overnight manager, some people say pharmacy tech, at the local CVS. How many times did Abby and Liberty go into that CVS while he was there? Reports he even created, duplicated the photos of Abby and Libby for their funeral at no cost. Hiding in plain sight is one way to put it.

But believe me, the police, the sheriffs, the state police had to exhaust every lead and that takes time. As of right now, the probable cause warrant leading to the arrest of Allen, Ricky Allen, is being kept under seal. And I find it very interesting that law enforcement insists this investigation is not over and the tip line remains open. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. With me, an all-star panel, but I want you to hear another thing. This is from Superintendent Doug Carter of the Indiana State Police. Our Cut 54 listen. First, I'd like to speak directly to Anna Mike, Dr. Kelsey, your extended families, along with the entire Delphi community that

certainly has grown and now includes our nation and even many countries around the world. proud to report to you that today, actually last Friday, was a day. And an arrest has been made. Straight out to Cheryl McCollum, joining us, forensics expert who has investigated along with us

the Delphi murders and is joining us from Delphi. She is the founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, coldcasecrimes.org. Cheryl, tell me everything that happened from the moment you sat down to this moment right now,

the moment you sat down in the presser. Nancy, it was somber. It was packed. It was standing room only. There were folks there just from all over the United States. And the minute that Superintendent Doug Carter took the podium, I think that there was just a unified feeling of, we understand there's been an arrest, which is a major, major change in this case. But we all know that today, really, the investigation in some ways begins. So it doesn't end in arrest. Today,

honey, they are hot and they are fixing to go to work. You know, okay, this says it best. I'll let Doug Carter with the Indiana State Police say it himself instead of me. Take a listen to our Cut 55. We are going to continue a very methodical and committed approach to ensure that if any other person had any involvement in these murders, in any way, that person or persons will be held accountable. Since the murders of Abby and Libby, 2086 days ago, the daily investigative team has worked tirelessly. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, I also heard him state that so many, and I quote, divisions of the crime lab were involved.

That tells me blood, blood spatter, DNA, touch DNA, hair, fiber, staging, the possible evidence from the bodies. But did you also hear that he said the investigation is not over yet? If there's any person or persons out there, the tip line is still open. What do you make of that, Joe Scott? Our minds are one this morning. That was my biggest takeaway today, Nancy. When I heard him say that from the podium, for me, I began to think about this other guy that they've had incarcerated for some time.

I'm thinking about this fellow's family. Not what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking that last thing you said, his family. Cheryl McCollum, you hear Joe Scott Morgan. You're there on the scene. Agree. Disagree. Because it's come to my attention that the police executed a search warrant on Richard Allen's home. Then they're back digging around a fire pit where Alan had been burning something in the backyard. Let me tell you, it's never

good when you look out your window and the cops are digging up your yard or going through your trash. Well, I'm just going to jump right in it. As a wife, she is never going to be able to convince me. She didn't recognize that gate,

that walk, those clothes, and that voice. Oh, I got something, Cheryl McCollum. Jonathan Lee Riches investigates and he has obtained, whether it's off Facebook, whether it's off YouTube, and posted

this guy, purportedly this guy, Richard Allen walking in a pair of jeans. Okay. Strikingly similar to the man on the bridge jeans. All right. Anyway, I know it's going to be impossible to say it's the same kind of jeans, but I want you to look not at his jeans, but at his build and his gait, G-A-I-T. Kind of an ambling he's doing. To Cheryl McCollum, I'm sure you also have seen that video. Yes, no? I have not, but Nancy, let me tell you the biggest takeaway for me for today. When you listen to that press conference and over and over and over, they put the tip line back up. They tell you it's not over. They tell you if any other person has had anything at all to do with it, we now have a face.

We now have a name. So I believe they are going to keep everything up, like the tip line and everything, because they're going to try to connect additional dots. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, can we talk about the face just for a moment? And I'm going to go to you on this one, to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Everybody, again, jump in. We've only got an hour to cover up, which is the biggest development in the Delphi murders that we've had so far. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me, psychoanalyst in Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com.

Speaking of a picture, there is a picture floating around on the internet and it is, I think, taken of Alan and his wife at JC's Bar and Grill in 2021. Now, I mean, right behind him is a composite sketch. To my recollection, it's the second composite sketch. And, I mean,

it's almost straight out of a movie scene where the person turns and looks at him and then right behind him is the composite sketch that looks at him and then right behind him is the composite sketch that looks like him but i'm talking about what cheryl just said about the family did they not suspect anything well nancy let me go back a second abby and libby the day that they were hiking the day they went missing they were on snapchat and they took a picture of this man your viewers and listeners know this by now. So there was a picture from the

very beginning. This Alan is taking a picture of himself, a selfie with his wife, with the composite sketch behind them. This reminds me of so many criminals who commit domestic homicide. Maybe they kill a wife or a partner, and then they join the search, or they pass out flyers, or they get involved in the effort to find that person when in fact, they are the perpetrators. So what they're doing is they're injecting themselves back into the crime and reliving it again and again. I also think he's triumphant. Quite a bit of time has passed. He's not been named as a suspect at the time he takes this picture. And this guy thinks he's going to walk scot-free. But you know, Nancy, he is not because you talked about connecting the dots. If this guy is the perp, if he killed Abby and Libby

and he has an online pet presence as a pedophile, he is going to have little tentacles spreading outward all over the internet to other people where he will have passed photos, memorabilia, reminiscing about the crime. So of course, the tip line, you know, I think of course it should stay active because I think more and more people are going to be implicated in this crime. Take a listen to Hour Cut 60. This is Nicholas McClellan, the county prosecutor. This investigation is still very ongoing. We're keeping the tip line open, the tip email open. We encourage everybody to continue to call in tips, not only about Richard Allen, but about any other person that you may have.

For that reason and for the nature of this case, the probable cause and the charging information has been sealed by the court. I've been very clear to everybody that per the court order, we cannot talk about the evidence that's in the probable cause or the evidence that's in the charging information. That will become evident to you at some point and it will be released. But right now is not that day. To Judge Scott Morgan, what were you saying? Yeah, one of the things I was thinking about, talking about the burn pit and going back to what Bethany had said, this is one of the things I'm thinking they're going to zero in on, Nancy. If there are any trophies that have been taken from this particular site.

We know two items were taken from the scene. Right. And also going back to remembrances, there have been certain terms that have been thrown out over the months, the years, and that is posing. And if there is posing going on in a case like this. Boy, be specific for people that don't know what staging means. That means that staging or posing, posing is a little bit different because posing goes to a fantasy level. Dr. Bethany can address that.

But if there is posing going on, that means that there might be a photographic record of it. Because this is something that these guys, over all the serial cases I've worked that get into this, they love to reminisce about these things. And they will generally have a hiding spot that they'll keep these things. BTK was famous for this. And so I'm not saying this guy's a serial perpetrator at this point, but these are very bold things that have begun to kind of seep out that it would give you an indication of potential practice here. You know, Nancy, this is Wendy. One thing about the emboldenedness that we seem to have seen here is, remember we talk about who would have recognized the gate.

We said, sure, family members would have. This is remember we talk about who would have recognized the gate we said sure family members would have this is a small town i would have thought anybody would have recognized the gate the voice you know if he works in this town if he has friends in this town he has neighbors people know each other this was a big case why wouldn't anyone else have recognized him on that video and that's one of the other reasons he may have become emboldened over time that maybe he figured, well, maybe they did recognize me, but have chosen to protect me or stay silent. And why didn't anybody recognize the clothing? You know, in these small towns, it's not like there's a huge shopping mall. Probably everybody buys their clothing from similar places. They don't buy a lot of new clothing. They recognize each other's clothing at the morning and again. And speaking of clothing, guys, you were just hearing Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author of Red Flag.

She's the host of Today with Dr. Wendy KCBQ San Diego, as well as Dr. Bethany Marshall. Alexis Terescha, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. I'm coming right to you. But speaking of the clothing, this was on Richard Allen's wife's Facebook post. And it shows her kind of sneaking up on him. You know, when you try to surprise somebody and you're videoing them. He's sitting in the car reading something. I think he's reading a tablet, isn't he, Jackie?

Like an iPad maybe. She sneaks up on him. He jumps and closes the tablet. I didn't get a look at what he was reading, but he's wearing a blue jacket, identical from what we can tell to the one the MOB man on the bridge was wearing, Cheryl McCollum. Yep, absolutely.

But Nancy, I got to jump back to this fire pit a minute because I think this is crucial. It's been five and a half years since this murder, murder. And the fact that he would be burning something now tells me he knew they were close and he knew the police were coming. Well, Cheryl, what about the timeline? It's been projected that the police came and did a search then he went out into the fire pit and then police were digging around the fire pit i don't know if that's the correct order but that certainly changes things does it not it does but it also means he kept things pertinent to what joe scott was talking about these souvenirs potentially it also means he knew they were coming back he knew he had to get rid of that stuff.

So whatever it was, he kept it five and a half years. But again, the most important thing to me, he knew they were coming back. That is not an innocent man action. For those of you just joining us, a major break in the Delphi murders of Libby and Abby. Joining me, CrimeOnline.com's Alexis Tereszczuk. Alexis, recap. Libby and Abby, 13 and 14 years old in 2017,

February 13th, day before Valentine's Day. They don't have school. They're in the afternoon. Their sister drops them off just to hang out on the bridge. Teenage girls, they're not doing anything. They're taking silly Snapchat videos of each other. Here I am on the bridge. Exactly what teenagers do. Men, the family can't find them. They're taking silly Snapchat videos of each other. Here I am on the bridge. Exactly what teenagers do. Then the family can't find them. They're supposed to be picked up at the bridge around four o'clock. Still daylight. This is the dead of winter. No one can find them. They

keep calling the girls. Their phones ring and ring and ring. And then it goes straight to voicemail. They have no word from them. The family is searching. They finally call the sheriff that night. The sheriff thinks, well, maybe they're going to show up. The next day, their bodies are found. And along with their bodies are a cell phone. And this cell phone has been the most valuable piece of evidence in this entire investigation. On this cell phone, on Libby's cell phone, she took a video of a man approaching them. It is a 43-second video. We have only seen about three seconds of this video.

There is a lot more evidence that the police have that they have never shown us. And in this video, the man says, go down the hill. And you can see that he's leaning to his left. He's coming towards them. And they obviously thought that something was very suspect. You don't record just random people walking towards you on the street normally. But this was so scary to them that they made sure they captured it on video. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you've got a theory on that, that he had actually passed them and was coming back.

Explain. Yes, my theory is they came from, let's just say, the north end of the bridge. I believe he met them coming from the south side. I think he passed them, and I think if you look closely at the photograph that everybody has come to know as the bridge guy, it looks to me like he's coming back into the center of the bridge, which would be indicative of him turning around. I think they had some type of interaction,

whether he said something or did something, it alerted everything in Liberty German that this is not right. And Nancy, for every woman and young person listening to your show right now, every girl has had somebody make them feel weird. Some guy brushed up against them, said something know inappropriate maybe even tucked them in some way but they didn't video him for Libby German from a distance to know that she needed to get this person on videotape tells me there was some overt action from him and I think when he turned around and met them that's when he had control to push them in the direction that he wanted them to go down the hill up a half a mile to where he already had a place staked out that's what i believe hold

on cheryl mccollum i just want to show everybody what she's talking about i'm holding up and everybody on the panel knows exactly what i'm holding up man on the bridge bridge guy aka is it richard? When Cheryl's saying he's turning around, that's why she's saying it. Do you see how he's tilted off to the left? Like he's going one way, turns around, he's in the middle of the turn coming back toward the girls. And then later on in that same, I wish I could show it to you better. Here, here we go. Then he straightens up right beside it. You see what Cheryl is talking about, which when he passed him the first time, Cheryl, I think what you're saying is that something he said or did gave them the creeps.

They get out their phone when he turns around starts coming back toward them it makes perfect sense what were you saying joe scott yeah interestingly enough mac and i had a discussion i guess it was probably two weeks ago now mac uh where you know i you know i've always held that whoever did this had knowledge of the school schedule okay they would have like an intimate knowledge of when the kids were going to be out, that sort of thing, for timing. And to Mac's point about a pre-prepared area down there, I think that that's significant. When you look at that bridge and you see the height of this thing, it's almost like what they would refer to in the military as a choke point. That means you can funnel people into an area and there's nowhere for them to go at that point in time.

It indicates familiarity. It also indicates potentially preparation, I think, to a great degree, that you have actually picked out an area. You have dates and times in mind, okay? And then you have a specific area. You have a choke point where you can kind of corral whoever the victim or victims are going to be, and then you get them go down the hill at that point. In addition to the familiarity issue, you know, Nancy, it strikes me that we talk about everybody recognizing the gay. You know, these girls probably knew him too,

and perhaps it wasn't the first time they thought something was odd about him, which would explain why there'd be videotape and audio tape. This maybe wasn't a stranger to them either in such a small town. I was thinking that as well. This guy had a relationship with them possibly for a long, long time. He was working in the local CVS, processing their pictures. When we think of serial killers, predators, and victim selection, somehow they fit some profile of two victims that he was already contemplating. The fact that he posed them after their death meant that the relationship with them continued after they died. And then keeping the trophies and potentially burning them in the burn pit. He, you know, these predators,

their rape fantasies, their sadism fantasies, their relationships with their victims live on and on. They have prolific fantasy lives. Well, we're learning a lot, Bethany. And from just simple research, we've learned, we believe we've learned anyway, that this guy, Rick Allen, worked at CVS as a pharmacy tech and reports an overnight manager. What does that tell me? That he's free during the day. During the day when Liberty, Libby, and Abigail, Abby, were there on the Monmon Heights Bridge. So he would have been off that day. And I guarantee you right now, if they haven't already done it, anybody on the panel, jump in. They are getting his work records. Was he off that

day? Was he working at the time? His cell phone records? Nancy, it's Alexis. I also want to tell you, in 2019, the Delphi Police Department, they sent the DNA that they had to not only to the FBI, but to all of the Ancestry.com, all the family tree tracking places, because they had enough evidence. They had enough DNA that they wanted to see if they could track it that way, to track him through his family as well. So they have been putting the feelers out to send this evidence everywhere to see if some way it could connect with somebody. Yeah, you're right, Alexis.

And that was in 2019. So that tells us that there was DNA taken from the scene. How could there not be? Based on what we learned a while back, there were copious amounts of blood. There are suggestions, I'm sure you've heard them there on the ground, Cheryl McCollum, that the girl's throats were slashed. We don't know that yet, but we do know there was a lot of blood, which means he had to get some blood on himself. I mean, we saw what the killer was wearing. Sure. And I think there's also it would appear, I think, to most criminologists that this was probably sexually generated. So there was probably seminal fluid.

There might have been sweat. There might have been a fingerprint. There might have been other things that they were using. But again, if you get the ancestral piece of it, I mean, that can take a while to connect those dots as well. I mean, you have to go back generations and generations. I'm not talking about your grandmother or your grandfather. I'm talking about great, great, great, great, great, great. And then it might be DNA pops up belonging to a third cousin that lives in New York City. And then you got to trace and trace and trace until you get back to someone that may have been in Delphi.

I believe everybody on this panel said at the get go that we did not think this was a transient, although we did explore it. Just who would know to go to Momon Heights, Trestle Bridge, and you'd have to know where you were going to get to that. I'm very interested in that 43-second sound and video, audio and video, on the girl's cell phone. We've only heard a few brief seconds of it down the hill. And it was looped down the hill, down the hill. There are reports the rest has not been played, just got Morgan, because it is too disturbing. Yeah, I would. I don't know that I want to hear it. It could be one of the most horrific things that we've covered.

And that's just from look, we've been at this for a long time now relative to this case. And there's been a lot of stuff, obviously, that's floated by our way, you know, crime online and with you, Nancy, and people want to tell us things. And for me, when I have heard this and I've heard other people say this, what's on the rest of the tape? I think that at the end of the day, when we finally do know, it's going to be something we probably wish that we could unhear at that point in time. Keep this in your mind while you're talking, the facial beard. Remember that long OT he sports sometimes? Well, he's sporting in his mugshot for one. Remember the bridge guy, the man on the bridge, how he has his chin tucked down like that so you can't see his chin?

It's all tucked under. See that, Jackie? I do. Okay, this is food for thought. Jump in, Wendy. Yeah, you know, we may not want to hear the tape, but the reason we have to is this teaches us what in the world to look for. You know, you talk about Red Flag, the title of my last book, the things that people say, the things they think, the types of pickup lines they think

are going to entice different age groups. I mean, we may think these things are just crazy and hard to listen to, but knowledge is power. So that would be one reason I would want to hear the end of the tape, just to figure out how in the world did a man like this gain compliance in that scenario. I've got another question. How did he manage to put $140,000 cash down on a house? I want to know that, too. I mean, he's an overnight manager at the CVS, which interesting, Cheryl McCollum. The CVS is kind of like, as you described it once, at the center of the wagon wheel and everything going out,

you probably got a CVS, a Burger King, a McDonald's, a Walmart. I'm judging based on my hometown, what's there. And CVS is right in the middle of it, right? Right in the middle. So how did he get $140,000 to put down on the housing cash? And that's the question. I mean, I think there's going to be so many things that come from, you know, what they're investigating now. And some of the dots they're going to connect, I think, are going to blow people's minds. But, Nancy, I want to piggyback on something Wendy Patrick was just saying. I think early in my career, when I was in my 20s, I believed that when somebody got to the point they were going to murder somebody, it was in a frenzy. Like, they were just out of control. Well, then I learned, you know, through experience, that's not the case.

If you listen to that voice, he's calm. He's not angry. He's not out of his mind. He's not in some type of murdering, you know, chaotic state. He simply says, guys, down the hill. So I think to Wendy's point, we can all learn things from hearing the totality of what happened there. And it's going to be horrific. There's no question about that. Well, I got to tell you something, Alexis Tereszczuk.

Join me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. When I first heard the name Richard Allen connected with CVS, I got in touch with CVS there in Delphi. And I swear, Alexis, the woman that picked up the line when I told her who I was, when I asked if Richard Allen worked there, I thought she was going to break down and start crying. There was this long pause and her voice cracked and she said, I can't comment. I can't give a comment. Well, after that, she didn't need to.

But this is a shock, I'm sure, to people that he worked with, that were side by side with him every day. And if anybody did anything to cover this up, they're looking at jail time, Alexis Tereszczuk. Well, that's the thing. And that's why the police have said this investigation is not over. And also people could have seen him. They could have helped. How did he dispose of his clothes? How do you come home from a murder scene that the state superintendent has said is the worst one that he has ever seen in his decades of his career?

And police officers have seen a lot. And he says this one is by far the worst. So he has a daughter. He has a wife. How are people in town, the people sitting next to him at that restaurant? Was the picture right? Did nobody see the pictures right behind him? um crime stories with nancy grace

cheryl mccullum you want to tell them about the photo of Alan's daughter on the same trestle bridge? It looked like her senior high school picture was taken on the trestle bridge where Libby and Abby were taken. It looks just like a senior picture, and she's literally sitting on the bridge. And the first thing that struck me is how much she favors Libby Dermott. She does. They could look like family members and you know again the bridge we can prove was not unfamiliar to him there's a connection to that bridge he'd been living there for many many years at least 16 years he's been married i believe

i found 25 years and i don't know if any of you guys have looked up the wife's post. She interestingly took down almost all the 2017 Facebook posts. There's 2016, 18, 19, and so on. But the 2017s have been taken down. Yeah, she's getting rid of that timeline. And Nancy, let me go back to the guy on the bridge. I've been to that bridge it is when they say 72 feet high it feels a lot higher when you're on it and there's some of the you know boards are missing and it's kind of i don't know it just doesn't seem stable when

you're trying to cross it and when you look at him his hands are in his pocket. There's no way you would traverse that bridge without your hands out, number one, for balance, and number two, to try to catch yourself if you stumbled or tripped on one of these boards that's uneven or missing. So that tells me. There was nowhere for them to run. They couldn't go either way because they were nearly 100 feet up in the air. Was that you, Bethany? Jump in. Yeah, well, so I was going to say, you know, Cheryl McCollum talked about the calm demeanor. Well, of course, he was calm. He was in charge. He chose this trestle bridge, which was quite precarious, probably familiar to everybody in the town, but still he had the upper

hand, the advantage. And I want to say about these serial rapists, murders, predators, whatever we find out, whatever we assess him to be at the end of this investigation, they always hide in plain sight. There's research into these kinds of perpetrators like the BTK killer. Usually they're middle-aged white men. They often have, they drive a family van. They usually have two children. They're often Caucasian and they wear what we call the mask of sanity, which is they know how to live in normal society and act normal all the while knowing that they

are not normal at all. And he probably worked at the CVS so he could be at the center of the hub, so he could engage in victim selection. It was probably part of a sexual, sadistic, masturbatory ritual that he incorporated into his work life that he could troll for victims all the while that he was working. I'm sure everything in his life was organized around his his paraphilia, his sexual deviancy patterns. Nancy, go ahead, Jessica. Yeah, one of the thing I wanted to bring out something you mentioned a few moments ago about drugstores. CVS is essentially unless there's a small mom and pop. CVS is essentially the only drugstore there.

You know, the closest Walmart super center, which is where a lot of people use for their pharmacy now, is almost 14.5 miles away. So going to this idea of this being kind of a hub area, you're going to know, you know, people just for the sake of convenience are going to arrive at this location. And back to what Mac was saying about him with his hands in his pockets on this bridge. I think, in my mind at least, that the reason he was so smooth and confident up there is not only because he was actually in control. There's still this disarming thing. It's almost like they're familiar with him, you know, that he can be that casual walking toward them on this bridge. I wouldn't want to be up on top of the thing because it's monstrous.

It's huge. I'd be terrified I'd fall off. But he was smooth. He was smooth as he's kind of ambulating toward them. And he's in control in that sense, too. Amble. That's a really good word because that's how I described how he's walking in that video the wife posted of him setting off firecrackers.

He turns around and kind of ambles. You know, can I ask something? Yes, jump in. So you talk about being on the same page. Joe Scott, I was thinking the same thing with a little bit of a twist. So if there's only one game in town for drugstores like the CBS, that's a position of power. We may not think the same thing if we come from large jurisdictions but in the place where everyone has to go there that's a great equalizer

it's like working at the dmv everybody has to come in so in terms of this personality profile he may have been emboldened and confident simply by the fact that he was really in charge of something that everybody in the town needed and that may also explain his cavalier, casual, but confident attitude that you hear on that tape. I just find it really interesting that the cops were literally digging near a fire pit in his backyard for what? We also know that he has been moved from one facility from the Carroll County Jail to the White County Jail. We also know that there has already been a preliminary hearing. Take a listen to our Cut 61, the local prosecutor. Mr. Allen has had his initial hearing.

He's entered a preliminary plea of not guilty. The matter has been set for a pretrial on January 13th at 9 a.m. 2023 and a trial date of March 20th, 2023 at 9 a.m. He is presumed innocent. We will have an opportunity and day in court when we can present the evidence that we have against him. But until that day, he is presumed innocent. So much they're keeping sealed the details of why he was arrested being kept secret. and I understand because they are saying this is an ongoing investigation let's look back at the man on the bridge the bridge guy if this were your husband would you not know he had that kind of hat is that that a Muse Boys hat? Is that what you would call that? And he is wearing a,

looks like a blue sweat hoodie underneath the blue jacket, very similar to the jacket Alan is wearing in that car where his wife surprised him. How would you not know your husband had an outfit like that hold that thought but to you alexis res chuck he has already had an initial hearing and entered a plea of not guilty he did he appeared in court on friday the 28th and he has said he is not guilty but one thing i wanted to talk about we've been talking about the evidence that he may have been burning. So there was an arrest, a search warrant issued for someone else, the man, Ron Logan's property, where the girls were found. This was about a year ago. He died. He was considered a suspect for a little while. But in that arrest warrant, there was no mention of what they were looking for. But what they did say was that the rest of the girls' clothing was recovered, which implied that it was a piece of clothing that the person, the murderer, took of the girls.

And that's what they were looking for. So a piece of clothing could burn much easier than if they took a body part or anything like that. But it seems to imply that that is what they have taken or he has taken. Wendy Patrick, what do you make of the fact that he's already been moved to a second facility for his own safety? Yeah, I'm not surprised given the notoriety of this case. I mean, you've covered it on your show. Other outlets have been following it for years. You know, partially this is a small town and there's a concern that when the state houses an individual,

they have a duty to make sure they keep that person safe. So I'm really not surprised. You know, I know that people have been moved with far less than this. And especially concerning is the fact that investigation is ongoing. So I think they're taking every opportunity they can to keep everybody safe. Just got more against my understanding. Two items were taken from the scene. One, apparently, clothing. What do you make of it? What do you know about reports that their clothing was misput? Like, for instance, Abby's clothing, some of it was put on Libby and vice versa. Yeah, it's called redressing. And this happens, I've actually worked a serial case involving redressing where the perpetrator would undress and redress the bodies postmortem. It's a it falls into a category of necrophilic behavior that is after death where there is a strong sexual attraction to the dead.

And it goes to posing nancy specifically um it's almost like they're in a state of a doll like inanimate state that the individual can do anything that they wish to do with them and they can interchange things with them and so that that again goes back to this idea of trophies when we process these scenes things, we're very careful. If we have something that indicates to us that it is kind of an over-the-top, maybe sexually fueled event, you're looking for items that they can go back and fantasize about. And, you know, from there, you know, profilers develop a profile. And I can bet you dollars to donuts they have got a rather rather rich profile on this fellow Dr. Bethany Marshall the difference between staging and posing explain well I mean to me staging is for the audience the imagined or real audience or whoever's going to come across the

scene to show that you're in charge posing asosing, as Joe Scott Morgan said, more has the doll-like quality. I have control over you. You now belong to me. I can stay in a stage of sexual excitement for as long as I want because I have ultimate control over you. You belong to me. To Cheryl McCollum, what are they looking for to prove this case? Cell phone records, DNA, GPS on the car, the day he was off. What else could they be looking for? They're going to grab his computer. They're going to grab things like the, you know, visitation book at the funeral home. Did he go there?

They're going to look at, was he part of the search parties? They're going to look for blood, sweat, similar fluids. They're going to compare the two composites. They're probably going to merge it and make one and show, yep, this is definitely him. They're going to do a voice analysis now that they have him. They're going to go back and try to gather some of this video showing him walking in and out of CVS. They're going to go back and get all of his employment clock in times. They're going to see when he interacted with the family.

Because, again, now that we have a face and a name, people are going to be able to come forward just like the family has and said, he did the photographs for us and looked right at us and said, no charge. Like they remember him so he's not unfamiliar with a lot of people that i think they're going to be able to come out and say you know whether the cell phone data shows it or his computer searches the things that he's you know collected and kept and then of course our pit's going to be a money tree honey look do you remember when the superintendent remember the the last presser that they had? You remember when he stood up on that podium and he looked at everybody and he said specifically, I know you're here.

You might be here in this room right now. I know you're listening. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And I just wonder if he was in the room and what kind of reaction he had. Wendy Patrick, what were you saying? You know, it seems to me like I love Cheryl's laundry list of what needs to be done.

I think a lot of that has been done because remember the same superintendent when he was talking about, you know, we got you, we're close. Don't be surprised if we come today or tomorrow to that effect. He already had a lot of the information that we're talking about

because that's how he was so sure and confident that he had his man. Now, here's the thing. There is a husband-wife privilege, but there is no father-child privilege or father-cousin or father-brother privilege. I just wonder what his family may know that could help this investigation.

Alexis Tereschuk, what's next? Well, we have a hearing in January, January 13th, and then the prosecutor announced today, he said, we have a trial scheduled. We want to start this trial on March 20th of 2023, which is a very short amount of time. And the fact that they are keeping everything so secret that they have, they're ready to go. It seems like they have a case that they are very, feel very strong about. They're ready to go. It's got to be DNA, Alexis.

For us, it's got to be DNA. We wait as justice unfolds. And as always, our prayers to the families of Abby and Libby. Now, our friends. Goodbye, friends. This is an iHeart Podcast.