Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DELPHI MURDER SUSPECT'S COLD 8 WORDS TO WIFE: "I DID IT. I KILLED ABBY & LIBBY”

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Prosecutors rest their case after 12 days, spending time proving that Richard Allen is infamous "Bridge Guy" captured on Libby German's phone.  Prosecutors believe Libby and Abby were led down the hill to be raped before their killer panicked, slashed their throats and covered their bodies with sticks before fleeing the area. One of Richard Allen's 61 + confessions said he got scared by a white van.The prosecution found a neighbor got home in his white van near the scene of the murders.  The defense calls their first witness, Cheyenne Mill. She is walking the trails and bridge the day Abby and Libby vanished. Says she was there from 2:50pm, talked to her boyfriend on her phone at 3:12 pm, saw an overweight man on Freedom Bridge who did not say HI back to her. She describes the man as old with a camera around his neck. Mill tells jurors she didn't hear of seeing anything unusual or see anyone in the wooded area and she spoke to police the next day after hearing about the girls. Six months later the FBI contacted her saying her phone pinged on the Hight bridge February 13. Mill cries on stand talking about online vigilantes doxing her.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Philip Dubé - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall - Author: "Deal Breaker," featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/ , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive Sheryl McCullum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host: Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Bill Daly  - Former FBI Investigator and Forensic Photography, Security Expert; Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks -  Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’, IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  Gray Hughes - YouTube channel @GrayHughesInvestigates  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Delphi murder suspect's cold eight words to his wife. I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We also know by three o'clock, nobody's hearing them. There's nobody screaming. Nobody's running. Nobody's calling on their phones.

Again, this was a very fast deal. And y'all, here's the reality. Most children that are going to be murdered are murdered in the first three hours. As the defense continues to make their case, Judge Francis Gall makes a decision infuriating the families of Libby German and Abby Williams. The defense admitting into evidence nearly two hours of videos of Richard Allen filmed during his 13 months of suicide watch

and solitary confinement. But the judge rules that due to the explicit scenes contained in some of the videos, only the jury will be able to see the videos. Defense attorney Brad Rossi thanks Judge Gull for her decision saying, quote, out of respect for various parties, including my client and his dignity. This is the most professional way of dealing with this. His dignity? What about Abby and Libby's dignity? Portrayed on a big screen in the courtroom, one of them, butt naked,

mortal wounds, slashes to their throat, slash upon slash to the girl's throat. Them and death. Now I'm supposed to be worried about Richard Allen's so-called dignity, a man that confessed 61 plus times. He even said, why won't anybody believe me? I did it. Now the defense is, okay, ignore all the 61 confessions because he was clearly in the midst of a psychotic break. Well, today I will bring on a panel of experts that will show you he was not in the middle of a psychotic break from everything ranging from psychoanalysis to the cold, hard facts. Even one of the shrinks that was seeing him nearly every day says he faked it. What's happening in the courtroom? A lot. But also tonight, we delve into attacks on the victim's families. I first found out about this a while back. Susan and Hendricks and I discussed it at

the courthouse. I then went on a fact-finding mission and found the attacks on the victims' families, even claiming, believe it or not, that the victim's sister, Kelsey, is the quote real killer. It's evil. It's hateful. It's vile. Many people bent over backwards to defend this, to claim it's not happening. It is happening and I'm going to play it for you. But first, to what is most important, not what a bunch of YouTubers are saying online. Let's talk about what's happening in the court of law. Listen. As videos of Richard Allen are played for the jury, several jurors take special note of video number seven and frown at what they are watching. One juror takes notes, writes something on his notepad and shows it to the juror next to him. During video number nine, multiple jurors look toward Richard

Allen. At one point during video number 10, defense attorney Jennifer Auger appears deeply concerned, alternately holding her head in her hand and covering her mouth. Only the jury can see the videos and members of the gallery can only watch the reactions of the jury and imagine what they are watching. Straight out to Susan Hendricks, who has not missed a day of testimony. Susan, thank you for being with us. Susan, investigative reporter and the author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, which is an amazing work. Susan, I've really learned a lot from that. Susan, I want to talk about what happened in the courtroom. The video shown only to the jury and the defense. I noticed the state never looked away or acted disgusted, but the defense did throughout. Very exaggerated, pantomiming. They didn't say anything out loud, looking away, rolling their eyes, acting as if they were very, very upset. Two of the jurors, one wrote something and showed it to the other jurors. Some of them looked away. I know you couldn't see the

video, but let me ask you a very narrow and specific question, Susan Hendricks. The question what is on the video? It's Richard Allen in his cell at Westville Prison. And what do you believe is the reason that a couple of jurors looked away? One juror took a note and showed it to another juror. Because of his treatment by the guards, being dragged at one point. He is constantly on camera 24-7, camcorder footage as well, being dragged in the hallways just against his will. Okay, I've got a real, I've got a question, and let me throw this to Bill Daley very quickly. Bill Daley, no media, no one in the well could see the video. When a defendant tries to bite you or spit on you, could you explain what is a spit mask? Well, a spit mask is probably something people may have seen in the movies where it goes over someone's face to prevent them from either biting someone or spitting them. So it covers their face in a very dramatic fashion, kind of like a Halloween mess type of affair.

You know, I was going to say, Nancy, talking about this situation. It is a loose-fitting, typically black hood put over a suspect's face when he or she bites or spits on the officer. Is that correct? That is correct, Nancy. And I think, you know, some of the things we're talking about here, reaction by the jury, is also probably from people who, because of their backgrounds, have never, you know, been or seen inside of a prison, and particularly a maximum security prison. So I probably think just some of the ambiance of what that is is quite, takes him back quite a bit. Nonetheless, how he was being handled by the prison guards.

And again, you know, we have to go into kind of the frame of mind. The prison guard is protecting himself, protecting him from himself. Things they have to do to kind of clean him and feed him are all things that may be quite compelling to the jury. I want to move forward. Bill Daley, it's always shocking for a civilian. It's shocking for me. I don't like when a spit mask is used. But to you, Cheryl McCollum joining me, forensics expert, star of Zone 7, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, I don't like a spit mask at all. I've never known of it to be used on any of the defendants that I prosecuted.

However, I have seen a cop who was bitten and bleeding, then had to go to the hospital to get tested for HIV, for everything, because he was bitten by a defendant a suspect a murder suspect i've seen cops with globs of spit on their uniform i've seen them spit in the face you know what i don't like a spit mask but i understand why some police use them i'm gonna tell you straight up i love them them. And here's why. It is the least aggressive thing they can do to stop that attack. When you talk about being, you know, bit and you talk about somebody spitting on you, you don't know what disease they may have. You don't know, you know, what level they're going to go as far as upping this advancement towards you. Law enforcement using a spit mask does not hurt the person and stops the threat of further attack on that officer. Joining me right now is the star of a YouTube channel, Gray Hughes.

Gray, what is the name of your YouTube channel? Is it Gray Hughes Investigates? That's what it's called. Gray, let me ask you a few cross-examination questions very quickly. You referred to an incident back in 2015 when police were called to his home for a domestic dispute, as it is euphemistically called. Gray Hughes, since the time, and Susan Hendricks, please jump in if you know differently, or anyone on the panel, please. Since Richard Allen has been behind bars for the murders of Abby and Libby, have there been formal complaints of brutality on Richard Allen? Beatings, anything like that?

Strangulations, punches to the stomach, anything, anything? Well, this is what I'm going to say. When Richard Allen was in prison, just before the confessions, everything was great. He was reading. He was exercising. And he was studying the Bible. And he became religious. And he wanted to get off his chest that he wanted to confess that he killed Abby Libby. And so he confessed to his wife.

And then right after that, his attorney sat down from his wife, Kathy. And amazingly, he became absolutely crazy, drooling all over his shirt, eating paper, et cetera. And then there were probably incidents after that in prison I guess during testimony that showed that he tried this or in those videos that he tried to spit on the officers that's why they put the bags on but I don't really know of any you know physical moments in while he's in prison but I think this is all absolutely contrived and created by the defense team, along with Richard Allen, his wife. Richard Allen wanted to.

You know what, Gray Hughes? I've been reading a lot. And one guy online, he's named Cajun DVL Dog. D-A-W-G. And he says, to your point, no human interaction. And most of Alan's detainment, he had a guard and or inmate companion assigned him 24 seven. He was given an iPad, broke it, received another one. How many inmates get that? Does Diddy have an iPad? Rex Heuermann? He goes on to say, what about the fact Alan would only act out when people were watching,

but then on camera? He would refuse three meals because he knew if he refused four, it had to be reported. I think what happens is, Susan Hendricks, doesn't he refuse four? Because once you refuse four meals in a row, it gets reported as inmate refusing to eat. Exactly. He was playing the system. Okay. Now back to my, and I'm going to follow up with you, Gray Hughes, about whether this is all chicanery, a fake or not. But I want to get back to the question because I'm very concerned about claims that the video that was shown to the jury showed barbaric treatment. Was a spit mask used? Maybe. You've got to ask yourself why and why at that moment. Was he picked up and carried?

Was it because he wouldn't walk? Was it because he didn't want to go to court? Was it because he didn't want to go to some sort of evaluation and he had to go, but refused to get up and walk? So again, I'd like a yes, no answer. Susan Hendricks or Gray Hughes, do you know of any complaint filed by the defense about brutality behind bars? That is a very simple yes, no, Susan Hendricks. No. Okay. No, I would say no also. What, Gray? I would say no also. I haven't heard that at all. Okay. Let me go to veteran trial lawyer, Philip Dubay. He is an LA County public defender, my sworn enemies. That said, he is in court every day of his life when he's not here with us trying cases. He knows his way around the courtroom.

Philip Dubay, take off your defense hat just one moment. Okay. Can you tell me with a straight face, if Richard Allen had ever been beaten, had a bruise, was slapped in the face, punched in the stomach, suffocated, strangled, electrocuted, waterboarded. You want to tell me the defense would not have filed a complaint and we would not be hearing about it in opening statements and more. Without a question. The first thing that we do as defense counsel is we have an obligation to protect our clients, not only legally, but holistically. If we get word that anything is happening to our clients behind bars, we are duty bound to bring it to the court's attention, to the warden of the

jail facility, and to get the court to make an order to protect the inmate. And absent any type of allegation, we have to assume that jail officials are doing their job. And I can tell you, in addition to being in court every day, Nancy, I am also in the lockups. Those lockups are lit up with cameras everywhere. They are in the jail cells. They are in the halls. There is a special unit that looks like mission control where they have several sheriff deputies manning all the cameras. They can see in real time everything that is happening in the halls and in each individual jail cell. And I can assure you, without even meeting the people who worked at this facility, that if they saw anything untoward

being perpetrated against any inmate by their own staff, it would have gone to internal affairs and people would be out on disciplinary leave pending a thorough investigation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. During the second round of video showings for the jury, again, only the jury can see the videos of Richard Allen while he is being held at Westville Correctional Facility. During the playing of video 13, attorney Baldwin turns away, shaking his head. During video 14, three jurors sit uncomfortably while defense attorney Auger is seen looking away. Video number 15 is 34 minutes long and multiple jurors are seen taking notes. Of the 15 videos, the defense shows the jury for containing nudity while others show Richard Allen being transported to receive medical

care. None of the videos shown in court have audio. Joining us, an all-star panel straight out to Susan Hendricks joining us. She's been in the courtroom throughout the trial. Susan, thank you for being with us. I noticed that the people in the courtroom that can see the video, the ones that are reacting the most are the defense lawyers. Exactly. Exactly. With Jennifer Auger looking horrified. And mind you, discovery was given to Richard Allen on April 3rd. And I believe after that is when he started to really lay it on and pretend, in my opinion, to be crazy. So this video, I understand why the victim's family is so upset. Joining me, in addition to Dr. Bethany

Marshall, is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, a hit podcast. For my purposes, I want you to know that he is a death investigator and he has investigated thousands, probably over 10,000 death scenes, be they suicide, accident, homicide, voluntary, you name it. Joe Scott, I'm coming to you on this question because of all the indignities that you've seen on victims. And I remember one of the last cases I tried, not the last, but one of the last, it was a serial killer. We could only get him on one case. And she was a Jane Doe, which as you know,

greatly handicapped my case because I didn't know anything about her, where she had been, who she fraternized with, nothing. I had one shot, one shot. And I remember at the end of the trial, darkened courtroom doing a slideshow. And I had to put the victim up on a screen. I also had to put an autopsy photo up on the screen where her skin was pulled back from her head so you could see subdural hemorrhaging. I felt sick because I had to show these photos of my dead victim. Now here, everybody's seen photos of Abby and Libby. One of them, Libby, naked with her throat slashed open. One of them crying, her tears diluted with blood. Laying out in the middle of a cold, cold

creek side area. No wonder the victim's family is angry because we are protecting the dignity of Richard Allen while he's naked and masturbating. We don't want anybody to see that. But it's okay to show these girls. I mean, explain these photos, Joe Scott. What was published about these girls? And it had to be.

It had to be. I'm not saying the state's wrong because that is the truth of the crimes on Abby and Libby. Yeah, here lay the evidence before you, literally and figuratively. Can't take them out there to that moment in time, but you can recreate it in this environment and let them see what was wrought upon these, you know,

these two little angels in this particular circumstance. But, you know, I've been giving some thought to this, Nancy, and I was really thinking just a few moments ago, why in the world would people begin to turn away, you know, when they're bearing witness to what had happened or what was going on in that videography? And what is it that would be so shocking to them? Remember what Rossi said, who I believe is one of the defense attorneys at one point in time with Allen. He made mention that, you know, Allen was involved in some pretty repugnant stuff in jail. And I don't know if you want to get on this road, but,

you know, he was engaging in the eating of his own waste, which, you know, to me, you know, they want to talk about things like, you know, these red herrings, you know, like odinism and all these sorts of things. When you begin to examine what's going on with this guy, to what lengths he'll engage in these behaviors to demonstrate that he's, I don't know, mad as a hatter, perhaps. But, you know, this is a condition called corpophagia or corpophilia. And we've seen this with people that perpetrate these kind of sadistic sex crimes. He's also stated in one of his comments that he was a sex addict. Immediately when I heard all of this, Nancy, I was thinking this takes me back in time to a case that's one of the most notorious, which involves Albert Fish, who loved killing children and he mutilated children.

He was also into corpophilia and corpophagia as well. And I really wonder if this is a reflection of what you're seeing in him. Remember, he no longer has access to individuals that he can abuse. But within this environment, part of sexual fantasy with corpophilia or corpophagia, he has access to this. He's acting out in this environment, part of sexual fantasy with corporal failure or corporal phagia, he has access to this. He's acting out in this environment, Nancy. Joining me, as I mentioned earlier, renowned psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction, Dr. Bethany Marshall.

Many people are claiming he became imbalanced from being in solitary, which, by the way, was for his own protection. That's right. You want to tell me those inmates wouldn't have tried to tear him apart if they found out he's the guy charged with killing Abby and Libby. That's why he's in solitary. But have you ever seen people become overwrought with guilt at what they've done? Nancy, he's doing something called malingering. He's making up psychosis. And the reason I can tell is that he was admitted with the, or he was incarcerated with the diagnosis of depression and anxiety. He was probably depressed and anxious because he'd been caught. Then they diagnosed him with a brief psychotic episode, which is less than a month. But the confessions lasted way longer than a month.

Also, the psychologist says that his confessions are very concise. And what that means is that he had a clear storyline that he repeated to his wife again and again. Now, if he was psychotic when he was making those confessions, his language would be rambling, bizarre, incoherent, and was something that we call loose associations. A loose association is I saw buttercups and because of that, the sun is shining. Well, the two could be kind of linked, kind of, but the sun shining has very little to do with the fact that the person saw buttercups. So he would have that same kind of a weird presentation in terms of talking about the crime.

I've read his confessions, Nancy. He's very clear. He's trying to convince his wife that he did do this. And all of this, like rolling on the ground and eating his feces and, you know, flushing his Bible down the toilet. I call that dramatics, hysteria, being a drama queen, just so that he can look like he's crazy. There is a problem with one of the state's witnesses. The shrink that was interacting with him almost every day, we now find out was a true crime

sleuth. Okay. Does that matter? No, but it does matter if she showed an interest in the Delphi case, because it's going to be argued in closing arguments by the defense that she had already formed an opinion that her opinion was somehow slanted because of her own investigation. We'll see what happens with that. Let's talk about Brad Weber. Listen. Officer Christopher Gute of the Hammond Police Department tells the jury about the importance of interviewing witnesses and suspects. And when he is asked about interviewing Brad Weber, Gute doesn't remember much. Brad Weber says he arrives home around 2.30 p.m. the afternoon Abby and Libby vanish. He lives in the area and is driving a white van.

In one of his confessions, Richard Allen talks of being spooked by a white van. Susan Hendricks, what's the significance of the white van? It is huge. Brad Weber gets off of work at 2.04, getting him home around that time, around 2.30. That is when, in his own words, Richard Allen said he was interrupted by a van. To me, that puts the timeline, that puts him there, something only the murderer would know. I think it's huge. Speaking of Brad Weber, a lot of sleuths online are pointing to him as a potential suspect. Listen. Trying to create

doubt about the unspent round found between Libby and Abbey, the defense ask about Brad Weber owning a Sig Sauer gun, the same type gun Richard Allen owns, which prosecutors use to link him to the murders with the unspent round. Mullen tells the jury that Weber's gun was collected and tested, and it isn't a match for the unspent round. Joe Scott Morgan, let me go to you on this.

A bullet, even if it is not fired from the gun, if it's cycled through like somebody racks the gun, but doesn't shoot it, that gun leaves a specific indentation on the cartridge and on the bullet. The bullet found near Abby and Libby's body is absolutely matched back to Richard Allen, not Brad Weber. Right. And the way that works, I have a dummy gun here that we use at Jack State. But right here is the ejection port, Nancy. So if you imagine the slide going back and ejecting the round out, it'll go up and to

the right and rear. They're a little what are referred to asations, on the casing itself. The casing is kind of a soft brass. So you have ejector marks and you have extractor marks. And because it's metal on metal, it is unique to that weapon. Now it's not as unique as rifling marks, but for ejector marks, it is very specific. And Gray Hughes joining me from Gray Hughes Investigates on YouTube. Gray, let me be clear. Brad Weber's gun did not match the bullet found near the victim's bodies. Is that correct?

Yes, I believe they were. It couldn't be excluded, but it didn't match, you know, where Richard Allen's actually matched. Personally, I believe 100% he is the bridge guy. I can work through the timeline, and he's trapped in. On the 13th, the girls were killed. On the 14th, they found the bodies. On the 15th, they put the picture of the bridge guy in the paper. The very next day, the 16th, he calls the tip line. He probably bridge guy in the paper the very next day the 16th he calls the

tip line he probably saw himself in the picture in the papers called the tip line they asked to talk to that person to see what they may have seen and then dan doolan talked to him two days later on the 18th then he tells them that uh he was there from 1 3.30, and there's evidence that his car at 1.27 drives by the Hoosier Harvest Store, a black vehicle matching his description with the same rims and everything, drives by the Hoosier Harvest Store coming from the east to the west. And just after that, he says he went through the Freedom Bridge and he passed three girls. Then when they interviewed the three, there were three girls that came forward and they saw him. So those three girls saw him and he saw them. That makes that true.

So that's him coming in right there. Then it takes 11 minutes to walk to the bridge and about 135 is when he passed those girls. So 11 minutes would be 146. Bessie Blair gets out of her car at the parking area at 147, walks down the trail. Richard Allen could not have passed her because there wouldn't be time. It takes six minutes to get back there. She goes to the bridge and he's standing on platform one, exactly where Richard Allen said he was standing when he went to the bridge. You know what? The way you lay that out, Gray, is amazing. Cheryl McCollum, there's more to exclude Weber. Listen. The defense trying to

add more questions about Brad Weber into Steve Mullen's time on the stand. And Mullen admits there are some inconsistencies in what he has said about what he was doing after work the day in question. However, on cross-examination, Steve Mullen points out phone records back up Weber's account of driving straight home after work, and arriving in his white van around 2.30 p.m. the afternoon Libby and Abby were killed. I learned in the courtroom at Delphi that attacks have been made, brutal, vicious attacks on Abby and Libby's family. I hated to give the names of the YouTubers attacking them because I felt it would only give them more attention.

But under much attack, I will now do so. Listen. Revelations from the state of Indiana's case against Rick Allen have thus far exposed the collusion, incompetence, and utter fraud that has taken place regarding the murders of 14-year-old Liberty Roseland German and 13-year-old Abigail Joyce Williams in February 2017. That is from YouTube, from a program purporting to be true crime design and more. The implications of such revelations are nothing new to me or my subscribers, but merely confirm our beliefs and suspicions as to what happened to Abby and Libby. Again, from True Crime Design, they claim to know what really happened. Here, they claim that the shot of the girls on the bridge has been faked and they implicate Sister Kelsey. Listen.

This image is not real, nor is it the last photograph of Abigail, just moments before the killer approached. It first appeared on Facebook, not through law enforcement. It is an edited combination of this authentic photograph of Abby playing softball in a hotel parking lot and the bridge guy image itself, which is a template of sorts. Susan Hendricks is joining me, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. You have heard this and so many more attacks on the victim's families. I know what it feels like to be the tangential victim of murder when the one you love the most is murdered. How is this affecting the family

that they are being accused, Kelsey specifically, of being critically involved in the murder of her sister? It's hard to even fathom that it happens, but it doesn't. Becky Patty sees this. of being critically involved in the murder of her sister. It's hard to even fathom that it happens, but it doesn't. Becky Patty sees this. She knows it. You're hurtful. And this person, by the way, showed up at the July hearing at the end of July.

It's disgusting. They have no moral compass. It's pathetic. And the family sees it and it hurts them even more if that's possible. And more from True Crime Design. I believe she led the girls to their assailants who attacked, subdued, and abducted them before eventually killing them at the scene by the creek. I also believe, based on physical evidence at the crime scene, that this was in fact a ritualistic killing. A blood offering to the gods or demonic entities that the people of Delphi worship.

I've got to bring in, you're hearing true crime design, and there are a lot more, by the way, other than true crime design. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is a renowned defense attorney out of L.A., Philip Dubé. Dubé, you get one person on the jury to hear some of these crackpot conspiracy theories. I mean, did you hear the last one, Dubé, a blood offering to the gods or demonic entities that the people of Delphi worship? We have to trust that jurors do the right thing and they follow the court's orders and they're not going to follow social media.

They're not going to read the news. They're not going to talk about the case to outsiders. Now, having said that, it does not in any way diminish the effect that this YouTube channel is having on the victim's families. I know plenty of lawyers out here and across this country who'd be chomping at the bit to urge her to get her checkbook out. Because you start blaming the sister for this horrific criminal act, she's going to find herself behind the V in a civil courtroom. Oh, and there's more, Philip Dubé. You know, what you don't want on the jury is one conspiracy nut. I looked at them. I watched their behavior. It's really hard to judge a book by its cover. I tried to discern what I could like I would during my own trial. Listen to this, Philip. I hope you're sitting down. Abigail and Liberty were ceremoniously killed in front of an audience in the early morning hours of February 14th. The dubious search for the victims on the night of the 13th is a cover for the ritual. That clip from True Crime Design.

Let me go to Bill Dealey joining us, former FBI investigator and forensic photography and security expert. Repeat, FBI investigator. Bill, why is it, and I see this all the time, do people choose to leap to zany conspiracy theories as opposed to looking at the facts? Yep, the facts. And as Joe Friday says, just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. And these are not the facts. I mean and and as joe friday says just the facts man just the facts and these are not the facts i mean there was no indication that there were any other

uh stirred up ground around the the victim's bodies there was no indication that there was anything like this that went on according to police reports i mean are people doing this for some self-serving publicity to get more likes on the channel or whatever the indication is. But this is far from the facts that we've heard, both in the case, the facts that we've discussed here on the program, and you laid out earlier, along with some other guests. This is far afield from any of that. So what their true intention is, except probably notoriety, publicity, it's hard to say. I hate to see the victim's family suffering even more than they already have. Susan Hendricks, take a listen to this. You see, this was a sacrificial double

murder committed in part by the families of the deceased and the prominent members of their community. That clip from True Crime Design and there the narrator is roping in not just Kelsey, but the whole family. Now, listen to this, Susan. This is the part that got you and I so upset. Listen. In addition to monetary rewards, fame and sympathy were garnered and exploited by the family of Liberty German, especially her big sister, Kelsey, to no end. The family's relentless fundraising and shameless media tour post-murders. That's not true. That's not true. You're hearing sound from True Crime Design on YouTube. The family is devastated.

They're not doing press tours. That's not true. None of it is. If Kelsey could go back in time and not drop her sister off on the 13th, she would. It infuriates me to answer. I'm sorry. It's pathetic and disgusting. And I feel for the families like they're not going through enough.

They have the Abby and Libby Memorial Park in the girl's name. None of this is true. Not an iota. That's not the biggest oxymoron. True crime. None of what they say is true. Now, I want to talk about another podcast. This is called The Murder Sheet. Listen. We were surprised at how much they went after Libby's family. These are, after all, family members who have been grieving the loss of their 14-year-old sister, granddaughter, and daughter since 2017. For Sidlowski, the anger towards Libby's family goes deep.

In a chat with Parsons and Miller on January 5, 2024, at 1.33 p.m., she wrote, quote, I'm honestly so f***ing grossed out with the virtue signaling in Delphine. And borderline resenting the victim families. I don't I don't understand this. Who could resent the victim's family? Susan, I'll say you can't make them back down. Becky Patty, if you listen further, they say it bothers me to see their pictures over and over again. And Becky Patty posted on Facebook.

I hope I'm bothering you because they will not stop. They're there every single day in court. They are not letting these evil people win. Well, you know what? You're absolutely right, Susan Hendricks. Listen to more. This is the host of the Murder Sheet discussing this very issue. She labeled anyone posting, quote, smiling, happy photos of the victims before they died, end quote, as, quote, so irritating, end quote, and opine that it was simply leverage. Gray Hughes joining me from the Gray Hughes Investigates on YouTube. You were hearing this sort of discussion on the murder sheet. Why are people angry about photos of the girls in life smiling and happy?

Did you hear what she says? She says she finds it, quote, effing irritating. I just think there's been this industry to go after the family for years. So right now there's a crescendo in it because it's a trial. But that same YouTuber that for years has been doing this. And then when that hair was found in Abby's hand, because it's Kelsey's hair, but they forgot to mention that the shirt that Abby had on was actually

Kelsey's shirt that she gave to Libby. And of course there might be a hair, you know, if you have long hair, it gets pulled off. When that hair was found, it went, ah, there it is, the proof. To Dr. Beth that hair was found, he went, ah, there it is, the proof. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, I don't understand all the hatred toward the victims' families. Nancy, in some sick, twisted, perverted way, these YouTubers, I believe, are envious of Libby and Abby and the families because they're getting so much notoriety, so much empathy,

such an outpouring of love and state resources, really trying to convict Richard Allen. And these YouTubers cannot stand that somebody else is getting protected. Somebody else is getting attention and care. So they are just, this is like pouring battery acid on the trial, victimizing the families and victimizing Libby and Abby treating the victims as if they are bad little girls and deserve what's coming to them. And one more thing, Nancy, these YouTubers are grandiose, contentious. They're full of certitude. They feel that they know better than everybody else, and they are just re-victimizing the family. Susan Hendricks, you and I were in court last week, and I observed Richard Allen's wife, I believe Richard Allen's stepfather, sitting on the row

in front of us at the far right. And then there were several seats being taken up by, I guess, YouTube reporters. I saw the family's eyes light up, Nancy, when they saw you. And I'm so grateful you were there. Susan, I got to tell you, it was a day full of heartache. It was a day full of heartache. You and I have been covering this case along with Cheryl and everybody else on this panel, since it first happened. That's been years in the making, pouring through documents, visiting the scene, speaking to locals, speaking to experts. It's been a very, very long and arduous process and a painful process covering this. But imagine, just imagine what these victims' families are going through every single day.

Thank you to our guests for wading through the evidence with us. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.