Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Delphi Murders Suspect: PAGAN CULT 'SACRIFICED' Abby & Libby

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

New court documents aimed at clearing Richard Allen for the murders of Delphi teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German blame white nationalists,  practicing Odinism for the deaths.  Allen's attorneys says the murders were carried out as part of a pagan ritual.  The 136-page document points to the gruesome crime scene noting that sticks and tree branches were placed orderly - on and around the girls’ bodies  and pagan religious runes could also be seen.   Claims are also being made that other suspects were not pursued. There are also allegations that evidence was suppressed and even changed.  The attorneys have requested a Franks hearing to determine if there were improprieties in obtaining a search warrant for Allen's home.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Fran Longwell - Former Deputy State’s Attorney,  Former Assistant State’s Attorney specializing in child abuse, sex offenses and homicides  Dr. Bethany Marshall  - Psychoanalyst https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive Chris McDonough-Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel- ‘The Interview Room’, ColdCaseFoundation.org Dr. Mark Mirabello Professor of History at Shawnee State University, Author: “The Odin Brotherhood”, https://www.markmirabello.com Dr. Maneesha Pandey - Chief Forensic Pathologist for the Forensic Pathologists LLC in Ohio, Board certified forensic pathologist,theforensicpathologist.com Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59, Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Libby and Abby, two beautiful little girls so full of life. Every time I look at their pictures, you just see life, joy, excitement coming from their eyes, their smiles. Those smiles ended their lives cut brutally short. The two little girls on the trestle bridge their lives cut brutally short.

The two little girls on the trestle bridge in Delphi. Behind bars, a local pharmacy tech, Richard Allen. You're never going to believe, never in a million years, his defense to the murders of these two little girls. Are you ready? If you're sitting down, you may need to lay down. He now says they were ritualistically murdered by the sons of Odin. Odin, O-D-I-N. Like Thor. Like a Norse god. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I know it's hard to believe.

Take a listen to our friends at WLS. Attorneys for the suspect, Richard Allen, filed documents saying that their client is innocent and that members of a white nationalist group are the ones responsible for killing teenagers, Abigail Williams and Liberty German, as part of a, quote, ritualistic sacrifice. The defense says the group had a motive because one of the girl's parents was dating a person of another race. Attorneys also requested that the immediate transfer of Allen would happen from the facility where he is being held. They say members of the white nationalist group apparently work there and are threatening his life. Yeah, I don't know that I believe any of that, but what is really interesting me right now is his defense theory that the sons of Odin. Now, Odin is a Norse god. There are four sons, Thor, Baldur, Vior, and Vali. What does that have to do with a murder on a bridge in Delphi? With me, an all-star

panel to make sense of what we know right now, but now take a listen to WLWT. The explosive allegations are part of new court documents filed by Allen's lawyers explaining why they say someone else committed the murders. We are seeing the defense's argument for the case, which is that the murders were the result of a ritual sacrifice from a cult of Odinists. A cult of Odinists. Okay, first to Max Lewis joining us, investigative reporter Fox 59. Max, a cult of Odinists, what they've been hiding out in Delphi. I'm going to ask you a question that I bet you're not ready for. Okay. How many people live in Delphi? How big is Delphi. I'm going to ask you a question that I bet you're not ready for. Okay.

How many people live in Delphi? How big is Delphi? It is not that big. There are probably five, 6,000 people I'd say in the city. That's probably a rough estimate, Nancy. Oh, oh, hey, I looked it up. 2,972.

Okay, I'm over. Last census. Yeah, hey, you're out of here. 2,972. Okay, I'm over. My senses. There's, yeah. Hey, you're out of here. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. So 3,000 people and somehow there is a sleeper bed of Odinists and nobody knew? Really?

Hey, I was saying earlier, I've never, the last time I remember being so happy about a lying defense. Do you remember when Scott Peterson's team came up with, okay, first of all, they said, what did they, one thing was a Hawaiian gang. Then it was burglars. Then it was someone took Lacey to cut baby Connor out of her stomach and raise the baby as their own. I mean the, and I remember the defense attorneys, a very renowned defense attorney, Mark Geragos, would try out the theories with me, against me, every night on Larry King. It would play out on national TV. And then if there was a rejection or we could tear it to shreds, then he'd move on to the next defense. Sons of Odin, what is that, Max?

What is Sons of Odin? Well, it is essentially what they say, from what I know from speaking to some experts when all of this sort of came out, was that it is this sort of ancient Nordic religion and these people are sort of, you know, use it and it's a white nationalist group.

Right there, Max. You're going to have to pick, Max Lewis, and I'm going to give you a moment to think about your answer. Are they white supremacists? Are they white nationalists? Or are they worshippers of the four sons of odin you said you needed an expert and guess what max lewis i've got an expert dr mark mirabello is with

us professor of history shawnee state university author of wait for it the odinin Brotherhood, O-D-I-N, the Odin Brotherhood, Dr. Mark Mirabello. I took the twins to Iceland and we got one of those group tours, super cheap, super awesome. It was amazing to see the Aurora Borealis, the North Stars, the Northern Lights. And while we were there, I learned, Dr. Mark Mirabello, that people actually don't look at me like this, Sydney, like, oh, here it goes, actually still believe in the Valkyrie. They believe that they worship the Norse gods. There's huge chunks of rocks up on these high mountains, and they believe that those come alive and that they are ogres or trolls or something. And it was really charming and I loved it. And we actually want to go back because it was incredible.

Everything we saw was amazing. But you do know that's crazy, right? Not really. And by the way, there are... Uh-oh. I take it back. It's not crazy. It's perfectly normal.

Perfectly normal. Go ahead. Let me clarify that, in fact, in recent years, and this has been fueled by the Internet, virtually all pagan traditions in the West are being revived. Celtic gods, Norse gods. There's also Egyptian gods are being revived. The Roman and Greek gods, the Slavic gods. There are Druid groups. These groups are spreading rapidly. In fact, there are some estimates there are more witches now in England than there are practicing Methodists. I should mention a group I wrote on in particular, the Odin Brotherhood,

is actually a secret society. So you put me in a space because any member could not admit he's a member. But and incidentally, the reason there are secret societies is because what's happening now. You mean what I'm saying right now? Well, what I'm saying is when Americans are involved in unusual religions, such as witchcraft, where you have naked witches dancing in circles at full moon in the forest, where you have Odinists going, and they're also called Asatru, going into the wilderness, offering need and so forth to the gods and goddesses. John Q. Public views them as weird and goes after them. So are Odinists, are they white supremacists?

Are they white nationalists? Or do they actually worship the four sons of Odin? Well, actually... First of all, who is Odin? Just let's start with that. Well, again, not to get too complex on this, but it's an Indo-European deity of Norse pagans. And in fact, they don't really just focus on Odin. There are gods and goddesses, approximately 36 of them. And they go back to, if you look at the Eddas of the Vikings, they're clearly described there.

But they resemble traditions in other Indo-European religions, such as, for example, Odin is actually Hermes to the Greeks and Rudra, Shiva to the Hindus. But I should mention this notion of your original question, are there white nationalist supremacists and so forth? The movement is multifaceted. You'll have on the very left, and they tend to use the term otteroo, and they can have black members in these groups and they will have gay marriage in these groups. And then you have on the extreme right, some of them are actually white separatists. And incidentally, they're routinely called white supremacists, but they're not.

They don't want to dominate nonwhite people. They don't want to control, as that was the goal to take KK, for example, after the Civil War and Jim Crow laws. They don't want to dominate them. They don't want to control them. They typically want a white homeland or bastion. In fact, they want roughly 10% of the United States, just 10 percent. And it's either going to be set up in Appalachia or it's going to be set up in the Pacific Northwest.

It sounds like Nazis. Here's an important point, though. Allegedly pure. What's the important point? Well, I was going to say that the notion that they would kill, if you go to the extreme right wing of this odinist movement, it would be unthinkable for them to kill two little white girls. They have convinced themselves that only 8% of the entire human race is now white. Is there anyone that is 100% pure anything? Well, here's the point I was trying to drive home. They're convinced that only 2% of the entire human race are females of potential childbearing age. So in other words, someone under menopause all the way to girlhood.

And they view girls who are white as a special resource. Now, if they're not going to commit a ritual sacrifice, if they were to kill someone, it would be what they would call the race traitor, the woman dating the non-white man. They would not kill a little girl. And by the way, onus do not commit ritual sacrifices. There are ritual sacrifices going on in the world. Some years ago, in fact, about 15, two, three teenage girls in Italy, ritually sacrificed a nun. These girls were aged 16 to 17. Some years ago, and they were to Satan, they offered the nun to Satan.

Also, roughly the same time, a married couple in Germany, the Ruda family, sacrificed their friend, stabbed him 66 times, carved a pentagram on his chest, and then had sexual intercourse in a coffin afterward, again an offering to Satan. In fact, the one underground group that openly encourages human sacrifice is called the Order of Nine Angles. And typically the writings appear, you can find them online at Amazon, under the name Anton Long. That's a pseudonym. And they openly encourage members to sacrifice. But they make it clear they're practicing a kind of hard eugenics.

The members must only sacrifice adults, not children, and they must only sacrifice what they consider dross or waste. Now, incidentally, this group is, Order of Nine Angles, is hostile to egalitarian theory, equality theories. They're hostile to, actually, they question, they attack the Holocaust. And again, they're extremely on the right. And they have levels of initiation. There's roughly seven levels. They go through difficult ordeals. And members are encouraged to, actually, as a special right, to murder someone as a sacrifice. They use magical techniques

or actual killing techniques. A magical would be like a voodoo doll, but typically they'll plot the murder and make it look like an accident. So there are ritual sacrifices. I shouldn't recall years ago, you covered Mark Kilroy murder in Northern Mexico. He was a college student, crossed over, and he was sacrificed in Apollo magic ritual. So human sacrifices do occur. Ritual sacrifices do occur. But I've never actually seen the Asatru and the Onus at any level involved in that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know what? I'm getting so deep in the order of Odin right now. And I'm glad that you're telling me all this. Because to Fran Longwell, joining us, former deputy state's attorney

out of Calvert County, specializing in sex offenses, child abuse, and homicides. The more I learn from Dr. Mark Marabello, and again, guys, he's the author of The Odin Brotherhood on Amazon, the more I learn from him about the Odin Brotherhood, Fran, the more unlikely it is that this defense will work. Now, a twist on the Odin Brotherhood that, of course, the prosecution must understand fully is that the claim, as I understand it from the defense filings, is the Odin Brotherhood was hijacked by white nationalists and they are the ones that, according to the defense, murdered Abby and Libby. But the more we know, I know Dr. Mark Mirabella was going DEFCON 4 deep, deep, deep, deep into Odinism, but you have to know it in and out like the back of your hands. So you can use that knowledge as a shield and a sword in court when this defense comes up.

And the more Mirabella was saying, the more fantastical it becomes that the order of Odin had anything to do with these murders. I agree with that. But when you read their memo, it was mind-blowing to me that one of the guys confessed to his ex-girlfriend. She came forward to the police. Another guy confessed to his ex-wife. And then there was a man in Georgia who actually saw disturbing images on this guy Holder's Facebook page, and he reported it to the police. Those images were kept, but then the police couldn't find them when they asked for them. It's just kind of bizarre. And that guy Holder, his son actually dated Abby. It's very, if you read that whole memo, it's mind-blowing.

They have so many connections to these people. Connections, connections. You're right. There are connections, Fran Longwell, and I agree in speaking of confessions to Max Lewis, investigative reporter, Fox 59. Speaking of confessions to Max Lewis, investigative reporter, Fox 59. Speaking of confessions, what about the ones Richard Allen spouted out? Can you tell us about those? Yeah, he was basically, this was in the last filing that the defense made, the last big filing,

and they were trying to get him out of the Westville Correction facility which is a state prison it is not a local county jail he's being held there for extra protection but obviously that is um quite rare for someone to be held in a prison where most people have already been convicted but regardless they said that um you know they were using this that he has gone crazy in this prison and he has they said that he confessed to the killings multiple times to his wife and to his mother while speaking on the the prison phone system with them and there are recordings of of those calls obviously we haven't heard them they haven't been released but those do exist max isn't it true that according to these phone calls, which will, can, and will be played in court, he confesses no less than five times to his wife and his mother?

Isn't that true? Yes, it was several times on the phone, Nancy. And there is the other issue, Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective. And this is where I found him. I found Chris McDonough on YouTube when I was looking at everything possible about Brian Koberger, which I still do every day. I found Chris McDonough doing a very slow drive through of the whole area before I could go to Idaho myself. I saw it the way he presented it. It was amazing. And it made so many of the facts make sense. Chris McDonough, um, there's also the issue of the bullet. I don't care who says what

anybody can be lying at any given time. And I think one of the reasons they're trying to claim Richard Allen is having a mental breakdown behind bars is so they can get out anything he said to his wife and his mother under the pretext that he was insane or on meds at the time. Think about that for a moment. But my question to you, Chris McDonough, is what about the bullet found at the scene under one of the bodies or between the bodies that matches back to his gun, his longtime gun in his home? How did that get there? Did the sons of Odin do that too? Well, that's a great point, Nancy. And it appears that that bullet matched the ejection port of that. Don't start with me, McDonough. Don't tell me it appears because that is science.

That is not subjective. Either it matches or it doesn't match. And you can look under a microscope the way I have done a million times, and you can see it. It's like a fingerprint. Either it matches or it doesn't, Chris. Yeah, it matches according to the lab that they sent it to. It's a P226.40 caliber handgun. And that in and of itself, if we also look at the crime scene as a whole, the crime scene does not have indication of any type of organized, structured, cult-like type of problems. This is a sexually motivated crime scene. it's what we call a cluster scene and you see that the you know victims are positioned and or

staged in certain points which is part of a signature and that can show psychosis and or a psychotic method that was utilized there because it was very cunning at the time and alan puts himself there at the same time his car is seen there on videotape, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm in confession. Even the hoodie, Chris McDonough, he's wearing later the same hoodie. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, high-profile psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I had a drug lord who was spotted in surveillance video and he had on a la Michael Jackson a red leather pants and jacket. Guess what he wore to court? This was in a surreptitious deal with the CI

confidential informant and there he was. You couldn't see his face but you could see his outfit. He wore the same thing to court. That made my job so easy. But that said the same hoodie, it was, it wasn't a blue jacket said, yeah, the same jacket, like outdoor, not Patagonia, but like a Patagonia. It's just one like that. He was wearing the same thing later. Well, that was described. And what about the composite? I mean, it's just, there's just That was described. And what about the composite? I mean, it's just so much evidence. And now we hear Sons of Odin. It tells me that there's this deeply ingrained culture in that area where when there's a crime,

everybody wants to inject themselves into the notoriety. And in a way, this has become like an urban myth for that area of the world. And I'm sure there's a lot of chatter online about who did it, how and why, and were they a member of a cult? And if so, what cult was it? And it becomes in a way a form of entertainment for a certain group of people. It becomes enlivening, it becomes stimulating, and it becomes so interesting and entertaining to them that they almost want to imagine that they were a part of the crime. Just like you and I might go to a movie for entertainment, or we might play with our children, or even just sit around the dinner

table and tell interesting stories about our day. This is a very sick group of people that even if they didn't commit the crime, they would put out information as if they did. And the fact that he wore the same hoodie, you know, again, criminals are not the brightest bulbs, for one. But number two, if this was a deeply ritualized, sexually motivated killing, everything he wore while he conducted the crime is going to be really interesting to him. And in a way, you might say he's wearing his trophy. You know, maybe like, I don't know, a woman goes on a date, she falls in love with a guy, he sleeps with his head on her pillow. She now sleeps with the pillow every night and smells the perfume, reimagining that she's with him, even if he never calls her back. There's gradations of pathology when it comes to holding on to totems and symbols and signs of something that was very

interesting and enlivening for you. But I think that's another reason why he has the hoodie is that that's what he wore during the crime. And he loves being involved in it and wearing it, which is kind of sick. Dr. Manisha Pandey is with us, chief forensic pathologist for forensic pathologists in Ohio, board certified. And you can find Dr. Pandey at the forensic pathologistpathologist.com, theforensicpathologist.com. Dr. Manisha Panday, thank you so much for being with us. It's a real honor to have you on. What would you expect to have been done to the bodies, these two beautiful little girls, had there been a ritualistic pagan murder, a sacrifice, as they would call it.

So if there was like a sacrifice or some kind of a ritual, they would have some kind of, so first, most likely what happens is they would probably be killed. And then after that post-mortem, they would set them up in separate, like, you know, in specific days. And it all depends on which ritual it is. They can use, like, some kind of, you know, sticks or some kind of terminology, some kind of, you know, leave things on the body, position them in specific ways. I'm wondering about the mode of death. We know they weren't shot.

We know they were killed with a sharp object. Isn't that true, Max Lewis? Yes, and this new filing has the most descriptive, most intense, I guess, description of the crime scene that I've seen so far, and it does say that their throats were slit, which is what we've known for a long time, just it hasn't been publicly released. What more details do we learn about the

murders from this defense filing? Over 130 pages. Yeah, the crime, the description of the crime scene is what took me back so far. We had known and we had been told that the crime scene was staged in some way and that pieces from the girls were missing. We had known and we had been told that the crime scene was staged in some way and that pieces from the girls were missing. We had known that before, but this one described it in great detail, how the girls were positioned in very. How were they positioned? Well, so Libby was naked and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes. So their clothes were switched. And I believe that Libby's clothes. So their clothes were switched, and I believe that Libby's clothes are just sort of missing.

They were put at an angle with sort of their feet touching, but their bodies sort of going in a different angle. And then they had sticks that were placed, or branches or sticks that were sort of placed on the girls' bodies in very distinct patterns. And then the really disturbing thing is that there that were sort of placed on the girls' bodies in very distinct patterns. And then the really disturbing thing is that there was some sort of letter painted on a tree in what I believe they said was Libby's blood. Nancy?

Yes, Chris McDonough, go ahead. Yeah, so that's the defenses in the 136-page motion. That's their description of the crime scene. But when we read the arrest affidavit for the defendant here, Mr. Allen, the clothing is described as being discovered in some of the clothing in the water nearby the bodies. The second piece of that is the other young girl's clothing is away from her body. So the defense has the clothing on Abby and Libby naked, and the arrest affidavit has the clothing on parts of clothing on both of the girls, and that some of the items were missing. And there was a lot of speculation in relationship to what those items would have been. You know, and so that there's a there's a real problem here from the arrest affidavit

to this motion of how these. You mean it's changed? The description of the scene has changed in the defense affidavit. Or it could have just been embellished. Yes, do jump in. Yeah, to Chris's point in the talk of embellishment, that is a huge part of this new defense filing also. The defense, I don't want to get too deep into it, but the defense accuses the prosecution, actually the chief investigator, I should say, of some really serious, you know, inconsistencies in this, changing witness statements, you know, embellishing,

you know, evidence and things in the original affidavit to search Richard Allen's home, the affidavit for the search warrant. And so that's a big part of this also, not only the description of the crime scene, the alternate defense, but the allegations against the chief investigator. The allegations of wrongdoing. Yes. Speaking of law enforcement, according to Allen's lawyers, LA law enforcement explored possible links between the killings and some sort of occult early on, but abandoned the theory after speaking to an unidentified professor who refuted any possible link. Would that be you, Dr. Mirabella? No, in fact, it was not. By the way, may I interject something regarding...

Do you know who it was? No, I do not. I do not. And may I interject something regarding human sacrifice history really quickly? Yes. If it's done, a human sacrifice, now it's not done by hunting and gathering cultures. It's only done in farming cultures. They only sacrifice domesticated animals and humans, never wild animals. Nobody sacrifices a crocodile. When the belief system is strong, like the ancient, well, the Inca, they offer the best. For example, we talked about killing little girls. The Inca had the virgins of the sun in which they would sacrifice flawless, beautiful little

girls. They could even have a mole on their bodies. They typically were under the age of 10, and they were offered as sacrifices. When the belief system weakened, they start to offer basically criminals and outcasts and POWs when the system weakened. In fact, we still have, this will probably surprise your audience, we still have legal ritualized sacrifice in the United States. Today, our capital punishment, and this is not just my idea, historians have said this for years, is an offering to the abstract God of justice. And we will take our outcasts and pariahs and our criminals and sacrifice them.

Whoa, whoa, wait, wait, hold on right there. Dr. Mark Mirabello, are you suggesting that people that have been executed under the death penalty did not commit a murder? No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're outcasts and criminals. Okay, because when you say we're putting outcasts to death, they're outcasts because they committed a murder and they're in jail. Yes, yes. By the way, what we're doing here, see, if it were a simple killing, they would find him guilty in the court and someone would stand up and shoot him in the head. But when you kill them ritually, that's called a comedy of innocence by anthropologists. We're pretending we're not actually killing someone. So the district attorney is not really guilty of murder. The judge is not really guilty of murder and the 12 people. I'm not saying,

I'm not taking a stand on capital punishment, whether we should do it or not, but we kill them ritually. The Spanish Inquisition was also a form of ritual sacrifice. Has anyone ever accused you of getting out in the weeds or getting off the road? Let's leave the Spanish Inquisition where it is. I don't have a dog in that fight. I want to focus back, steer us all back to this trial, this upcoming trial, and take a listen to our friends at WLWT. The defense says the February 2017 murders were a ritualistic sacrifice. The defense is taking an interpretation of the photos saying some of the ways the branches were laid over the bodies or symbols were left at the scene points to ruins and odinism and an odinistic cult that was sacrificing the girls. And maybe with prosecutors, it's a situation where they feel like they have a different interpretation of what all of that was. Court documents now allege that Abby Williams and Liberty German

were ritualistically sacrificed by members of a pagan Norse religion called Odinism. The defense writes the bodies of both victims had tree branches placed on them in specific patterns and one had small sticks in her hair to resemble horns or antlers. Odinists are said to be enamored with Viking culture. You are also hearing our friends at WNDU. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst. Dr. Bethany, how many times have you and I examined the practice of killers who cover up the body, specifically the head, the face, the hair, and it can come in many forms.

I've told you about one person that killed a young mom and left her naked on the bed, but covered her head with a wicker trash basket. We see bodies covered with blankets, with leaves, and in this case, leaves, twigs, and branches. Yet somehow the defense is eking out a sign of a sacrifice. Explain to me. You know, Nancy, how the perpetrator leaves the body is symbolically important. So let's say if they just cover the head. I mean, it could mean different things depending on the perpetrator, right?

You'd have to interview that person and find out their psychology, what they were thinking at the time, if they'll tell you, of course. And in this case, my first thought was he drugged the little girls. They were screaming, fighting, he killed them, then he assaulted them. But this was probably a very dirty scene on the ground. So, of course, they have twigs in their hair. Secondly, if he was trying to cover up their heads or their faces, I would think it would be more along the lines of something very childlike. If I can't see you, you can't see me, like trying to cover their eyes, trying to cover in a way for himself what he did,

holding on to the ritualized objects, the hoodie he wore, whatever he took from the scene for his own sexual gratification. But in terms of how he left them, kind of clumsily covering them up, it shows lack of care, you know, the way that they were laughed, messy. I mean, I think that the defense is turning something very messy, thoughtless, treating these little girls like they were just garbage. I can just kick them out in the woods as something kind of fancy, like putting antlers in their hair. You know, Nancy, this guy was a pharmaceutical tech. He organized things, put things on shelves all day long. He knew everybody in that town. I'm sure he had seen these girls come in and out. I'm sure that symbolically they represented something to him. He had thought about this for a long, long time and that this was a crime of opportunity. They

were in the right place at the right time. He did not know what he was doing. It was a messy scene. That's all. Now, I do see the concern from Fran Longwell, which I'm going to go back to. Dr. Manisha Pandey joining us, highly respected forensic pathologist. What do you make of the girl's throats being slashed? Because you don't see that very often in autopsies. You see it a lot in the movies, but not a lot as causes of death. So the girl's throats, any time anyone's throat is slashed, that means the person who is killing them is pretty close to the body and to that person. So that is telling me that the killer is really close to the person.

But you have to be close. It's not a far away person who is, you know, who's murdering these girls. And it looks more, I mean, very, I think it's very aggressive in terms of slashing the throats. And I don't, I didn't really read the autopsy report, but the fact that they were slashed means that the person was close to them. And highly aggressive and highly forceful to do that to two little girls. To Fran Longwell, former deputy state's attorney. Fran, you're right if this is to be believed. Now, this is according to the defense lawyers. The teenage son of an Odinite was dating Abby at the time of her murder, according to the defense.

I don't know that I believe that, but according to them, I mean, Abby was only 13 years old. I don't know how much dating was going on. I agree. And I'm wondering if that's just not their way, the defense way of trying to pull this all together, that maybe Abby knew this kid and they're connecting all that trying to connect those dots but like you said i don't know how you explain that that bullet found between the girls that was came from the defendant's gun i don't know how he how he is going to explain that how do you explain that because all the things you were pointing to fran are very they're going to be a problem for the state. I know it's a wacky theory to many,

the sons of Odin. But when you piece together the way they have cobbled together a 130 plus page document about not only alleged wrongdoing on the part of Ellie, but this Odinism connection, you get one nut jar and, you know, they're up the creek without a paddle. So all of this has to be taken very seriously. You heard Dr. Mark Mirabello speaking to Odinism. The thing is, if they can make the connection that one of the little girls was dating, and that's in air quote, he's the son of an Odinite, that's a fairly substantial connection. I'm not saying I believe that Odin has killed the girls. I'm saying that's a real threat to the state and they've got to take it seriously. Of course, my children who are 15 say so-and-so's dating. I'm like, hold on,

what do you mean by dating? What do you think that is? They go, oh, they talk at school and they text. That's dating to them. So I've got to find out what this really means, Fran Longwell. I think the other problem the state has are these other witnesses that the defense has found, the ex-girlfriend, the ex-wife. Why would they say these things? Well, they would say these things to get the guys in trouble, obviously. But if this group is so violent and they would be putting themselves in danger by coming forward. So that's kind of a weird thing, I thought. Yeah.

You know, one of them said she found the guy, the car, and the car came back with blood on it. It's just very strange. The whole thing is strange. There's a lot of fires for the state to put out in this case. This is not an open and shut trial. We can all agree on that. If you know or think you know anything about the Delphi murders of Abby and Libby, 765-822-3535. Repeat, 765-822-3535 765-822-3535 765-822-3535 Goodbye friend.