Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Delphi Murders: Suspect's Confession to Shrink Reveals Details Only Killer Knew

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

Richard Allen's confessions have been a focus for testimony this week in the Delphi Murders Trial. Prosecutors have noted that Allen confessed 61 times.  John Galipeau, the former warden of the Westville Correctional Facility, testified that Allen wrote him a note in 2023 that read,   "I am ready to officially for confess killing Abby and Libby. I hope I get the opportunity to tell the families I’m sorry."   Galipeau said Allen admitted to getting rid of a box cutter in a dumpster behind his work place.   A clinical psychologist who examined Richard Allen, told a jury that Allen said his intentions were "sexual,"  and that Allen called himself  “too much of a coward” to kill himself.  During some of his confessions,  Dr. Monica Wala said Allen gave specific details about the crime, which only the suspect would know. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Philip Dubé - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Sheryl McCullum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host : Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Jeffrey Gentry - Forensics-Certified Bloodstain Pattern Analyst, Senior Crime Scene Analyst and Death investigator, Former Toxicology Lab Analyst, Author: "Forensic Science: Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations" ; "Bloodstain Pattern Analysis" ; "Death Investigation: Information to Obtain During a Forensic Death Investigation” ; TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, FB: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst  Dr. Mark Mirabello  - Former Professor of History at Shawnee State University, Author: “The Odin Brotherhood” ;https://www.markmirabello.com Dr. William Morrone - Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, Pathologist, Opioid Treatment Expert, Author: “American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality” Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’, IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I have just come out of the courthouse here at Delphi, and I've got to tell you, it's nothing like you would ever imagine. Richard Allen comes in the room, assesses the entire situation, flanked by his lawyers, and then in comes the jury. In the last hours, I have heard testimony that I believe will render a verdict one way or the other. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

To the killer who may be in this room, we believe you are hiding in plain sight. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know, and one day you will. While Abby Williams' blood is in one spot of the crime scene, Major Pat Cicero says Libby German's blood is found in multiple spots of the crime scene. Cicero says Libby was likely attacked close by, but at one point was actually moving and basically walking in blood. Based on a large amount of Libby's blood being found in one spot, it is determined that Libby bled to death a short distance away from where she was first attacked. Also, after Libby was dead, her body was later dragged a short distance and placed close to a large tree. These are some of the facts that the jury has already heard about the way

these girls' bodies were found. But I can tell you from being in the courtroom, it gets much worse. In the last hours, we have heard testimony from a psychologist who saw Richard Allen practically every day behind bars. I heard her describe, and I saw Richard Allen's jaw just working the worse it got, the worse it got. I am telling you, I would stay everything that I have ever done in court, everything I know about the law on this. Richard Allen is not insane. He did not have a psychotic break. He knows exactly what he's doing and he is playing everybody. Will that include the jury? I watched this guy nudge his lawyer, say something, and they give him mints. He asked for water. He asked for a writing pad. He takes notes.

He flips the page. He looks around. He looks back at a group of YouTubers who are very pro-defense, who have been publishing horrible things about the victim's families online. I would be very surprised if they don't get sued. These people that are trashing the victim's families, suggesting that they had something to do with the murders. Yeah. Think about Burt Ramsey before you keep doing that, you YouTubers, blaming the victim's families. But that said said let me get back to the evidence joining me an all-star panel but first I want to go straight out to investigative reporter Susan Hendricks author of down the hill my descent into the double murder in Delphi okay it all started off this morning

with the first witness on the stand her her name, Dr. Walla. And she describes multiple confessions the defendant gave. And the prosecutor, a female prosecutor, is very careful to ask, lead up to it. In fact, I thought I was going to jump out of my seat with all the lead up, but now I understand why. How was he acting? What was his demeanor? What else was he saying? And I want to reiterate this. After this guy would give a confession to murdering Abby and Libby, claiming he wanted to rape them, but he saw some guy and he backed off, that that's why he took them down there. After he would tell the psychologist this while he was incarcerated, he would then go, look, I'm worried about I'm not getting enough water. I want my property back.

I want a tablet. I want to talk to my wife. I want to change jails. He knew exactly what he was saying. Those confessions were just like, hey, can I have that bottle of water, please? Can you hand me that, Susan Hendricks? He is just as sane as everybody sitting up in Congress right now Susan Hendricks can we go straight to the first confession she outlined in

court and I gotta tell you I'm looking at the jury Susan Hendricks and I can already see alliances and I can venture to guess who's gonna vote which way but I don't know enough yet Susan let, let's talk about the confession. Hit me. Yeah, I mean, it was riveting inside. And we've been dying to hear from Richard Allen himself, and he is manipulative. And he would just say nonchalantly, I killed Abby and Libby. But I'm a coward.

I won't kill myself. And it went on and on and on. But you're right. We've talked about following them on the bridge, leading them down the hill. In his own words i looked over at abby and libby's families and tears it was a long time coming that they finally heard about that well what was so amazing to me susan hendricks is how he could shift gears uh he was completely nonplussed he would say say, I killed Abby and Libby. You know, my wife doesn't believe me. At one juncture, hey, let's go straight out to Cheryl McCollum joining us. He has been on the case from the very beginning. Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensic

expert. Cheryl, I just wish you had seen this in court today. One thing, the prosecutor knew the psychologist's records better than she did. She was having to flip through pages throughout. The prosecutor would have to direct her to a certain document and a certain paragraph in the document to get her to understand what the question was. That can work both ways, Cheryl. Number one, she can look unprepared. But number two she clearly does not have a dog in the fight she's not trying to convict this guy or she would have the answers at the tip of her tongue right so it was amazing to me Cheryl McCollum that

Alan would be saying I killed Abby and Libby I wanted to rape, but this goes back to what you were telling me the other day, but I was interrupted. I thought I saw a guy, so I backed off. Then, within a matter of minutes, he'll start saying, I'm worried I'm not going to get enough water behind bars. I want to change facilities. I want to be closer to my family. I mean, he's clearly totally sane, Cheryl. Nancy, they had nine correction officers testify when I was there that he would wait and watch them and would then do things when he knew they were looking at him like that's when he would drink the toilet water. They felt like he was doing that deliberately to make them believe he was insane, but none of them thought he was. Okay, I've got a theory. Everybody, let's go to Philip Dubay, high profile lawyer joining us out

of LA in the public defender's office, which means he tries a lot of cases. Philip, this is what I think is happening. And you help me figure out a way to shoot it down. All right. I think they are going to argue, the defense is going to argue that of course, Richard Allen degenerated behind bars and that he was out of his mind from being in solitary when he gave those confessions. I think the state is putting, laying a foundation right now, Philip, to show that he was confessing until he started confessing to his wife and she said shut the H up stop saying that she called his lawyers then he meets with his lawyers and then suddenly Philip he starts eating paper smearing feces drinking toilet water he had done nothing of that up until the

time he tells his wife, I did it. And she calls in the lawyers. Then he starts acting crazy. Philip Dubé. You see what I'm saying here? He was giving confessions. His wife told the lawyers. And then suddenly, amazingly, he has a psychotic break. Are you with me, Dubé? Of course. So if I were defending him, this is how I would tackle it. The test for the voluntariness of confessions is not psychosis or insanity. It's whether or not the conditions were so treacherous and so dreadful that you would cop to anything to change your conditions and surroundings. And by copping out to crimes, in his mind, he thought that they would improve the conditions, give him better food, give him a better cell,

and not cut him off from the outside world. And that is the whole theory behind involuntary confessions. You'll cop to anything. Yes. How can you reconcile the two things that you just said you said that they're going to argue the conditions in solitary were so horrible that he had a psychotic break but yet you also said he's angling to get better food go go to a better prison, get more water, get more visits. How can you be crazy? And yet you're angling to get better treatment. I mean, that's not crazy. That's crazy like a Fox debate. No, no, no. What you're doing is you're trying to let everybody know that your

situation is wreaking havoc on the human psyche due to either under or malnourishment. And he's losing his mind, frankly, but not to the point of psychosis or insanity, but to get people to listen to him and feed him properly, give him something to drink, talk to him like a normal person and take him out of those torturous type conditions so that he can take agency over his life without being non-compassmentous. Because I truly believe that the malnourishment and the undernourishment was taking an emotional and a mental toll on him to the point that he would say anything to get the guard's attention. Philip, what undernourishment?

He says, I want more bottled waters. They give it to him. He eats all of his food. What undernourishment he says i want more bottled waters they give it to him he eats all of his food what undernourishment are you even talking about are you just just spinning this out like rumpled stiltskin well what are you talking about no no don't you remember the man was wasting away to nothing he was emaciated there was nothing left because he doesn't want to look like the bridge guy they're giving him food he's changing his appearance do you think ted bundy wasn't given food no he changed his appearance and lost weight so he could escape from a heat vent no you come on i'm talking about the truth i'm talking about what i just saw in

court i know but you're making it sound like they were giving him a smorgasbord every day and he can eat to his heart's content. And you're making it sound like they were starving him. Pretty much. Okay. You know what? I can see where this is going. Let me understand. Your theory is he starved himself into a psychotic break.

I don't know that that's possible, but maybe in Philip Dubé world it is. Let's go through, regardless of what Dubé is advancing right now. Susan Hendricks, I want to go back to what we learned in court today. I want to go to, if I can wade through all of my notes. Let me get back to page seven of my notes. He said he wanted closure, that he wanted to sign his confession, that he wanted to apologize to his family, and that he was trying to forgive himself. At this point, he was, quote, not disorganized. He had a coherent speech and appearance. He did not cry. He stated that he took the girls down to rape them. That he was interrupted.

He saw a guy or heard a guy. He stated that he covered their bodies up with twigs. He said branches. He covered their bodies with branches. He said, I didn't do all the things I've said I've done, but I did kill Abby and Libby. But my wife won't believe me. He wanted to know if his family would, quote, keep loving him. In fact, he asked the psychologist to get him a phone.

She did get him a phone. He spoke to his wife. When she came back into the room, the psychologist, he wanted to recall the wife. And he went, no, I want you to stay in here. I want you to hear it. And he continued to confess. Susan, relay to everyone what we've just heard in court. Yes. And hearing Dr. Walla on the stand, Nancy, as you said, and saying at one point that he molested his sister, another time, as you mentioned and saying at one point that he molested his sister another time as you mentioned saying he was interrupted and that could either be libby's dad who was set there to pick

her up around 3 30 was he calling her name did that interrupt richard allen but finally admitting to this and yesterday he looked very different we saw the october 2022 video the first interview what do you seem like a normal guy? Nothing was wrong. Now he's meek, putting his head down, glaring back at his wife. You're absolutely right. These are key to this case. I believe that he's not insane, that the high security prison did not cause him to become insane. I believe he's manipulated, manipulative, and did kill Abby and Libby from his own words. Susan Hendricks, she kind of glossed over a big bombshell in the courtroom.

He said that his words to the effect, that his problem, that's what he called it. I was calling it attraction to underage girls. But his problem all started when he molested his sister. That's what he just said in court. Did you hear that? I heard that and I wrote it down and he said molesting his sister, that molesting kids his own age when he was younger.

And Nancy, I know you remember this, when he said he thought Abby and Libby were older. This is after the fact, after he killed them. It dawned on him. Oh, I thought they were older. What is your last memory? She was standing at the door with this smile that she has.

And I said, it could be a little chilly out there. You get a jacket. She just looked at me and smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, grandma. That's my last memory. Dropping her off at their house

with her paints. That is the last visual I have of my little girl. It's on that bridge. Explaining how Libby's blood ended up on a small tree about four feet from the ground, Major Cicero says it's likely a blood transfer as the result of coming in contact with the body of Libby German. Cicero believes at least one of her neck injuries happened near the small tree. Cicero also believes Libby left a bloody handprint shaped like an upside down L on one of the trees.

We are camped outside the Delphi courthouse and have just come out of the courtroom bringing you the very latest and I will guarantee you whether the jury hears it or not from the experts, Richard Allen is not crazy. Richard Allen did not have a psychotic break behind bars. He is playing everybody like a fiddle. Joining me right now is Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst, senior crime scene analyst and death investigator, former toxicology lab analyst. It goes on and on. But listen to this. Author of Forensic Science Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations. And many more.

Jeffrey Gentry, thank you so much for being with us. Jeff, I want you to hear this. Listen. The crime scene has multiple areas of blood that are almost all from Libby German. And in an area away from where the bodies of Libby and Abby are found is a big pool of blood near a tree. This is the spot where Libby's throat is slit and where she most likely grabs at her neck

as a reflex action to try and slow the bleeding. It is in this spot where Libby German slumps against a tree, unable to stop the bleeding, accounting for the vast amount of blood on her hands before coming to a seated position near where the largest pool of co on her hands before coming to a seated position near where the largest pool of coagulating blood is found. Jeffrey Gentry, could you explain what we just heard, how you can tell what happened by the blood analysis? Yes, Nancy. I'm really happy that

the prosecution used a blood pattern analyst because that's what blood pattern analysis is for. It's for explaining unwitnessed events when there's blood at a scene. And if you have blood, it's going to explain events that occurred. And in this case, there was obviously a lot of blood. These poor little girls suffered quite a bit. And in this case, the young lady that was found, that was taken from one location to another, there were blood transfers on a tree. And they were up high enough that would indicate that she was upright at some point during this attack. Could you just hold on just one moment? I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here.'re giving me so much information could you repeat the starting two sentences ago about how the blood transfer got on the tree and what that means to

you in combination with the highly saturated earth saturated with blood yes so this young lady sustained neck injuries or major major wounds that are going to bleed a lot and they're going to bleed very fast. And almost always as a reaction to these type of injuries, a victim is going to touch the wound. And so by touching that wound, they're going to transfer blood to their hand or their arms. And in an effort to either fight off their attacker or just to survive themselves, they're going to touch other objects. And so that's exactly what happened in this case. There were blood transfer stains that were high enough up on a tree that would indicate that she was in a standing position. So she's touched this wound, she knows she's injured.

And then she's transferring her own blood to this tree, either by her fingers or hand or body parts that are bloody. But then at some point, you're going to start to suffer the effects of blood loss. And so there was evidence that she bled significantly near that tree. So you have blood that's accumulated on the ground. It's normally like if you had it in a living room or on a tile floor, you would see a giant blood pool. But in this case, it's out in the open. It's on dirt or branches. And so you see that there is evidence of a large volume of blood there that starts to obviously coagulate and dry.

So that's how we know that not only was she injured when she was standing, but then she's essentially fighting off or trying to get away from her attacker. She touches the tree while standing. And then as she sustains the effects of blood loss, she then likely collapses in that area, allowing blood to accumulate on the ground near the tree. And again, that's what blood pattern analysis is all about. It's there to explain events that are unwitnessed when there is bleeding that has occurred. Take a listen to this, Jeff. The large pool of blood near the base of the small tree is most likely the spot where Libby dies. She's then dragged to the location where her body will be found the next day.

Major Pat Cicero says the streaks of blood that run from Libby's right eye to her ear were textbook consistent with dilution. Pointing out how they get lighter and lighter and describing it as absent raindrop or water, he says the source of the thinning was a tear. Sniffles are heard through the courtroom and it's at this point that Carrie Timmons, Liberty German's mother, breaks down.

All along, the victim' parents, grandparents, have hoped and prayed that the girls died quickly. When the evidence of the blood mingled with the girls' tears came out in court, the family couldn't take it. It was horrible. Los Angeles is famous for the always captivating entertainment industry, some of the most famous sports teams, and incredibly expensive smoothies.

But beneath the glamour, it's also a breeding ground for bizarre, historic, and unforgettable crimes. My name is Madison McGee. You might know me from my podcast Ice Cold Case, where for the last three years I've been investigating my father's murder. But now I've embedded myself into the LA Times crime beat to bring you not only some of the juiciest cases, but what it takes to be a gritty crime reporter in a giant metropolis. From LA Times Studios comes its latest series, LA Crimes. We'll be right back. wherever you stream your podcasts. You can also watch the episodes on YouTube and Spotify. You don't want to miss this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Jeff Gentry, if you could analyze what you are hearing, number one,

that based on the blood evidence alone, the detectives know that at least one of the girls was dragged to where she was found. And number two, how do you determine that a tear going down the side of the face was mixed with or diluted with, a tear was diluted with blood? Okay, I'll tackle those in the order you gave them to me. So the body being transferred from one location to another, just like the blood that was transferred to a tree, you'll see evidence of blood transfer on the ground. When somebody is bleeding, they're going to either continue to bleed

or if they already died, they're going to have blood on their body. So you can see blood that has been transferred from one location to another. And just the mere fact that these injuries were so severe and that there was a large accumulation of blood near the tree, naturally you would assume that this young lady likely died near the tree and then since her body was found in another location, that it was transferred from one spot to another. In addition to that, there will be blows or blood that has went from one location to another on the body.

And so when the body is found in a position that contradicts those flow patterns, you can also tell that the body has been moved. And that was the case in on her body as far as the the tears go uh that that's an amazing observation by the the blood analyst um so i i'm very proud that they found that because uh it's hard to see those kind of things and considering that he was going in after the fact and looking at photographs it's difficult to see those type of things but what you're looking at on the body, and when you bleed, the blood is going to dry on the body rather quickly. And if there's a diluting substance, you'll be able to see that. And in this case, it was near her eyes or her face that would indicate that the only fluid source available

was tears. And so that'll dilute the blood. A picture, anytime you've ever bled, like if you've cut yourself shaving or you had a little cut on your hand and you bleed in the sink. Well, when you turn on the water, it's going to dilute the blood and that's what it's going to look like.

The question I believe that was brought up in court is, was this maybe condensation or environmental factors and if it was an environmental factor or like condensation or rain you would see the blood diluted uniformly throughout the entire body or all the blood stands on the body whereas in this case they just saw that near the area of the eye or the face and that would provide additional evidence that it was tears that diluted the blood as opposed to some other fluid or condensation. The deaths of Libby German and Abby Williams have impacted the Delphi community and beyond. The crime scene photos and testimony have been hard to see and hear. But when Major Pat Cicero explains how blood that flowed down Libby's face bore the tracks of the teen's tears. It was almost too

much to bear as her mother breaks down and weeps in the courtroom. The focus now of the defense is the timeline, not what did they do? When did they do it? And who was around to see it? And what did they tell authorities? The timeline is critical because she did not record just guys down the hill. We all know that. There's more. While Libby German has blood on her body and hands, has multiple cuts to her throat, and walked in the blood, Abby Williams is much different. Major Pat Cicero says it is likely that Abby was laying down on her back when her throat was slit. When Abby is found, her hands are balled up like fists to her chest and tucked into the sweatshirt she is wearing that belongs to Libby. It is most likely

that Abby died where she was attacked. We are live here at the courthouse in Delphi and have just come out of the courtroom. We've all been waiting, waiting for that evidence that could clinch the case for the state or disprove the state's case. Because I've got to tell you, in light of the fact that there is no DNA linking the defendant, Richard Allen, to the crime scene, if all the state was relying on was a bullet that was cycled through, not shot down the barrel of a gun, which of course leaves a fingerprint marking that links one bullet to one particular gun. Without that, we had to hear the confessions. And in those confessions, there had to be something that only the killer would know. And that just happened. Because I'm telling you, with no DNA, no eyewitness,

and just the bullet found there, some of the jurors could not accept the science behind specific indentations and markings on a bullet that was never fired. Some juror may reject that, just like jurors at one time didn't believe DNA or fingerprints. Yes, it happens. So we were waiting and waiting, and we just heard from the witness stand, a psychologist that spent practically every day behind bars with Richard Allen. Joining me, investigative reporter Susan Hendricks, who actually wrote the book, Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, I want to refer you to the one of the many confessions he gave.

And he states that he had a gun. He states that he pointed the gun. He describes exactly what happens. He admits he was at the bridge at the time the murders occurred, in that time period, wearing the same clothes as the bridge guy. Now, could you explain when he tells the jury that he had a gun and that he then covered the girl's bodies with branches? That information was not out there. That had not been released. Only the killer would have known all that.

And there goes the spin, Nancy. The defense trying to say the odeness theory and that sticks at the site happened to be put in a specific order near Abby's head and that it meant something. Now we learn why he did it. Throwing sticks on as the prosecution thought and now we're hearing it from his own words he followed them on the bridge ordered them down a hill had the gun and that voice down the hill down the hill we've heard over and over again we hear it from him finally you're absolutely right in terms of circumstantial evidence we couldn't have just the bullet now we have his confessions and again there goes the Odinist theory that the judge didn't allow it.

One of his many confessions. Now, after he states on his own, suus ponte, that he had molested his sister. And that's where he thought his, quote, problems started somehow almost blaming his sister, he then finds religion behind bars. He demands Bibles, which he gets. He wants more Bibles. He wants to share his Bible. He sleeps with his Bible. And during his religious phase, he confesses. He says he wants to apologize to the victim's family and he wants closure by signing his confession. What about it, Susan Hendricks? Giving the family a Bible, too. I looked over it. I saw eyes rolling. I'd like to give this Bible to Abby and Libby's family. Look, they don't want it. They want their girls back.

And you took their lives away at just age 13 and 14 years old. It's despicable. And I'm glad that the jurors are hearing. He actually said he regretted what he did and the fact that he was asking for closure by signing the confession. Guys, in addition to Jeffrey Gentry, Cheryl McCollum, Phillip Dubay, Susan Hendricks. Joining me right now is a renowned medical examiner. He is the author of American Narcan and he has devoted his life to helping others specifically in bringing peace and closure on causes of death. Dr. William Maroney, my longtime colleague and friend. Dr. William Maroney my longtime colleague and friend Dr. Maroney I want to talk to you about some very odd cuts to one to the girl's necks and Susan Hendricks jump in because I believe

you heard the testimony as well the throat slashings Dr. Maroney were not completely across the neck and at least one of the victims there were multiple four to five vertical cuts on their necks and the medical examiner is going to be tested the medical examiner's report as to whether the cuts were done with a box cutter as opposed to say a butcher knife. And also I want your opinion on the blood evidence we're hearing about and those vertical cuts. Because you don't normally hear someone's throat getting slashed with vertical cuts.

What does all of this mean to you, Dr. Maroney? It's interesting to say that there's vertical and there's horizontal because what you have to ask is which happened first. That's a big part of this. I want to bring in a prop and show you a neck. This is how we demonstrate this. When you look at vertical, those were probably done first because anything going horizontal would have ended life instantly and the loss of blood pressure would have caused a complete collapse and the body would have gone down. Now the reason why the vertical is important, this is a a box cutter is you don't have a big long blade you have to go in this way and down now the vertical cuts come first because somebody's

reaching out but the final cut would have been if there was somebody against a tree or on the ground, and it would have come this way. The order tells you that the victim did not die instantly, and that's what you get with the transfer of blood. When a victim tries to close a wound, they're pushing left or right together. But it's really hard if you get that first cut this way, you lose posture, you lose blood pressure, and it's almost impossible to stop. So the order of the cuts are important. And if we go back to the consistency of the diluted blood with tears, if they do the analysis right, tears contain lipids,

proteins, antibodies, and stress hormones. That in those samples that dry are going to show you that it wasn't rain and it wasn't moisture. So the order, the timing of how the cuts can be determined that anything that's vertical really makes a lot more sense as that's how it started plus if somebody comes after you with a box knife and you lean back you're losing contact coming this way and that's how the person didn't die right away and the victim probably suffered much more because those verticals, especially if they were trying to defend themselves, were the first cuts.

And the horizontal cut was fatal. Los Angeles is famous for the always captivating entertainment industry, some of the most famous sports teams, and incredibly expensive smoothies. But beneath the glamour, it's also a breeding ground for bizarre, historic, and unforgettable crimes. My name is Madison McGee. You might know me from my podcast Ice Cold Case, where for the last three years I've been investigating my father's murder. But now I've embedded myself into the LA Times crime beat to bring you not only some of the juiciest cases, but what it takes to be a gritty

crime reporter in a giant metropolis. From LA Times Studios comes its latest series, LA Crimes. From deep dives into the Menendez brothers to conversations about why Bravo TV seems to be a hotbed of white-collar criminals, we'll cover it all. The solved, the unsolved, the love triangles gone wrong. You get the idea. Tune in every Wednesday starting May 21st, wherever you stream your podcasts. You can also watch the episodes on YouTube and Spotify. You don't want to miss this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are live at the Delphi Courthouse and have just come out of the courtroom after riveting testimony by a psychologist that spent day upon day upon day with Richard Allen. Before I go to the other panelists, let me go back to Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi.

So many confessions. I just, I don't, what else will it take, Susan Hendricks? He's given over 60 confessions. He's remorseful. He got tearful in front of them. And one of them, he says, I wanted to quote, go back and change what he did. He took comfort in religion. He says over and over, I killed Abby and Libby. My wife won't believe me. I want closure by signing my confession. But what I'm looking for is specific detail because a confession that is rich in detail or statement rich in detail is more believable. He explains he wanted to rape the girls but then did not. He goes on to describe putting branches over them, says he had a gun. He goes on with information, for instance, that he saw a man and that cut into what he wanted to do. The psychologist said he appeared relieved after he gave the confession.

She also said that she believed he was feigning, feigning in order to manipulate people. The odd behavior, such as drinking toilet water, his behavior with his own feces. None of that happened until he confessed to his wife and she called the lawyer and the lawyer met with him. So what are the other details that he revealed in his confessions to the psychologist Susan Hendricks? Today was it Nancy. We heard it together telling that step by step of what he did he admits to following the girls on the bridge having a gun ordering them down the hill being interrupted as you said that could either be the owner of the private property down the hill who has a white van and there's a roadway did he hear the white van or was it Libby's father who was supposed to pick them up, Derek, and says that he called for the girls? Is that what interrupted that?

But giving a detail by detail account of what he did, and you're right, his wife hanging up, calling the attorneys. And that is where the defense is going to go, saying he was in a maximum security prison. He shouldn't have been there, wasn't convicted, and that place drove him to this psychosis. But again, confessing over and over, saying he wanted to start World War III at one point. He never complained about his treatment to the psychologist, even when, remember Hendricks, that in his confession to the psychologist, he said he had a gun. Nobody knew that for the longest time. Remember, we were speculating about the COD cause of death. No one knew there was a gun except the killer.

And here he is telling all to the psychologist absolutely and law enforcement was criticized nancy for years for not telling us or giving us more information and what is because they did have that bullet that they said there was a gun he admits to the gun now we have them there they were words that we wanted to hear from the killer. I believe he is the killer. I believe this is what everyone needed to hear, wanted to hear. Nancy, you know it's so windy outside in the courthouse. I know you're feeling it too. But we were inside and everyone was listening very closely to what this doctor had to say. Why?

Because she was speaking for Richard Allen. What he said to her. Even claiming, remember this Nancy, a sex addiction. We are live at the Delphi Courthouse bringing you the latest testimony pouring from the witness stand. Susan Hendricks, I just want to go over another thing I heard in the courtroom. I heard in one of the confessions Allen gave, he said, I made sure they were dead because I didn't want them to.

And then it faded out. I couldn't hear what the witness was saying. I didn't want them to what? Tell anybody. I made sure they were dead because I didn't want them to what? Suffer. He didn't want them to suffer. Oh, how kind of him.

He also said the shrink also said he did not indicate anyone helped him. He again reiterates this was all about sex and that he thought the girls could have been as young as 11. Okay he then points out other people he saw in the vicinity. They're all children. He's staking out the bridge looking at children. He saw three other people he says. Joining me right now is Dr. Mark Mirabello. He is the author of The Odin Brotherhood at markmirabello.com. Mark, thank you for being with us. We heard that the defendant revealed he laid branches across the girl's body. That happens all the time when murders occur outdoors. The killer, for whatever psychological reason, tries to cover up their body with branches or leaves.

What could that possibly have to do with Odinism, Mark? You can have a ritual without sacrifice, but you cannot have sacrifice without ritual. And to just lay a few branches on someone and to carve some kind of symbol on a tree, this does not qualify as a ritual sacrifice. Ritual sacrifices are really elaborate and can take a great period of time. So now regarding how various defense witnesses have claimed that they see significance in the way the crime scene was arranged, that reminds me of how some people can see messages in alphabet soup. There really isn't one there, but they see it with the letters. Okay, now wait, hold on just a moment.

Dr. Mark Mirabello, I'm starting to understand what you are talking about when you say people are reading messages in their alphabet soup, because that's spinning way out there. Putting branches over two bodies, in my mind, does not equal Odinism. But that is what the defense is going to try and argue. Guys, Dr. Mirabello is the author of The Odin Brotherhood. Cheryl McCollum and Susan Hendricks, I want to talk to you very quickly, before we have to go back into the courtroom about the audio portion of The Bridge Guy. Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that when the full portion of the audio is played, we hear a lot more? There is mention of a gun. Only the killer and the two girls would have known that what else did you hear on the audio Susan Hendricks initially I thought they sound so young and that was heart-wrenching of course hearing the girls voices but you did hear Abby say hey don't

don't leave me up here because she was a couple steps back from Libby then you hear Libby say we got to go down this way then you hear that's a gun or something to that effect. And you hear a click and then you hear guys and a high, like a scared high and then down the hill. It was hard to listen to. Cheryl McCollum, that has been your assertion since day one when this video emerged that the perp, the bridge guy who happens to be wearing the very same clothes as Richard Allen, who places himself at the location of the crime scene at the time of the crime all along, you said you thought he had a gun stuffed in his pocket, that that was what he's holding. Absolutely. And Leggett testified that he, as a police officer, could hear that gun racking. And, you know, I also think they found another unspent cartridge in his memory box in his bedroom. Could that be the one that he picked up?

Because, Nancy, again, to your point, he puts himself there, daytime, he's on video, you hear that voice. And some people have already said from the tapes they've heard, it sounds like Bridge Guy. He parked way away from the bridge. He had the, you know, ejected cartridge that was unspent that matched his weapon. He stopped on a warm day to get a jacket. None of this makes sense. And let me tell you, this is just day one of the beginning of his confessions and already admitting to the branches, the gun, the intent to rape, and so much more that only the killer would know. We wait as justice unfolds.

Thank you for joining us here on Crime Stories out in front of the Delphi Courthouse as testimony resumes. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.