Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DELPHI SUSPECT CLAIMS GIRLS MURDERED BY “PAGAN” CULT

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

After several pre-trial hearings, it seems that everyone connected to the murders of Abigail Williams and Libby German is absolutely certain of who killed the girls, but they cannot agree on who that person is. Richard Allen is set to stand trial on October 15th, but theories that an Odinist cult, sex traffickers, or a now-dead violent man attacked the girls are muddying the waters.    Testimony during the hearings confirms several details about the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby’s throats are cut, and the girls bodies are covered with branches. Libby is found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers and some of Libby’s clothing. Aside from the neck area, the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.  Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland believes the case against Richard Allen, 51, is air tight, after discovering over 60 recorded confessions by the accused killer in jail phone calls to his wife and mother. McLeland says just over a year ago, Allen began speaking about the murders in very specific detail with almost anyone who would listen. A fellow inmate even testifies that Allen revealed to him that he killed the girls with a box cutter, which Allen later disposed of in a CVS dumpster.   However, defense attorney Bradley Rozzi argues that Allen’s numerous confessions are not valid and should not be allowed into evidence. Rozzi argues that Allen’s mental state is degrading due to near constant solitary confinement, fueling his client’s admissions of guilt. Rozzi goes on to show the details Allen describes are inaccurate. In one recording, Allen tearfully expresses regret for molesting the girls, but their autopsies do not show any signs of rape or sexual abuse.   On the witness stand, Dr. Monica Wala, an Indiana Department of Corrections psychologist treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed the accused killer spiraling just before the confessions began.  Walla testifies that staff is providing Allen anti-psychotic medication at least once a month.  While Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the admissibility of Richard Allen’s many confessions, testimony did sway her to vacate a “safekeeping” order and remove Allen from the Westville Correctional Facility. Allen will instead be held at the Cass County Jail for the remainder of his pre-trial lock up. JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:  Rich Schoenstein - Trial Attorney and partner with Tarter Krinsky & Drogin    Twitter: @LawfulRiches Chris McDonough - Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, https://www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough---law-enforcement-relations.html,  Host of YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Dr. Mark Mirabello - Former Professor of History at Shawnee State University, Author: “The Odin Brotherhood”, https://www.markmirabello.com Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’, IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Delphi murder suspect is claiming these two little girls, Abby and Libby, ages 13 and 14, were murdered by a pagan cult. This, as reams of evidence, is pouring from the witness stand. But what will be allowed in front of a jury? I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Who murdered Abigail and Liberty? A suspect is caught on video with his menacing instructions. Down the hill. So much happening in a court of law, but what will the jury be allowed to hear? Something really doesn't seem right. That we know all of this evidence, but the jury may never know it. For instance, listen. Testimony during the hearings confirmed several details about the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby's throats are cut and the girls' bodies are covered with branches. Libby is found completely nude and Abby is dressed in both hers and some of Libby's clothing.

Aside from the neck area, the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean. Okay, I'm supposed to believe a pagan cult has responsibility for the brutal murders of two little girls. One, I believe, naked. The other one had on the other's clothing. Hold on, let's get the facts straight. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we know right now and living through the entire probative hearing, which means evidence pouring from the witness stand, Susan Hendricks, a well-known investigative reporter, journalist, and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, thank you for being with us. There's so much happening. I hate to get bogged down in the whole pagan cult did it, but the reality is the defense is naming actual names as to who they believe are the real

murderers connected to this pagan cult. What about it? I believe, Nancy, and it's great to be on, that the defense has always tried to establish that that is who they believed killed Abby and Libby, an Odinist cult. So it was mentioned in that Frank's hearing, disguised, in my opinion, as a Franks hearing, but really to put out there what they believed happened on that day in 2017. You're like a locomotive right now. You're steaming forward, but you're carrying a payload. So much evidence. You know, I taught English briefly while I was waiting to get into law school. I need to dissect, you know, like you put the verb here and the adjective here. And you just said a lot lot and we're like 10 seconds into our program.

Hold on. So first of all, you said a frank hearing. Now, in every jurisdiction, unless you're talking about federal a claim that law enforcement lied in some aspect, be it the probable cause, search warrant, arrest warrant, or some other aspect of the case? Isn't that what a frank's hearing is in that jurisdiction? Absolutely, Nancy. I'm glad you stopped me because there is so much information here. I'm used to just saying at the Franks hearing, what they were alleging was that Sheriff Liggett lied in what he thought was at Richard Allen's home in order to get that search warrant. So the attorneys are trying to throw out. Wait, wait, wait. What search warrant?

There's so many. So the defense is claiming we have to have a franks hearing because he sheriff liggett lied now okay i'm not saying the sheriff did or did not lie but you're also saying to hey with that that was just a pretense to try to get the defense theory out there okay what are they claiming liggett lied about saying that he specifically had more evidence than he did, it wasn't really clear why they thought he was lying. What they did say was, hey, we need a hearing. We want it tossed out. But Nancy, that— Wait, wait.

You have sat through days and days of evidence, and they never made it clear what Liggett lied about? The sheriff? Really? The Franks' hearing was 136 pages. So in that convoluted memo with a lot of grammatical mistakes was why Liggett lied. And I remember getting that. I was at Crime Con or hearing about it first, and I was with the family members there. And I didn't read the entire memo because to me, it was the defense's way of having the media read it. Well, wait a minute. Look, you did not fight your way onto Law Review at Law School. Okay.

You don't have to tell me what's in. I thought it was 139 pages. But that said, you heard the hearing. Did they ever come forward the defense and claim what Liggett allegedly lied about? I mean, because I've never known you to be wrong on a fact, Susan, ever. So if they didn't give a clear picture about what the Franks claim is after that many days of testimony. Okay. Let's just suffice to say they're claiming Liggett lied about a warrant, which warrant arrest or search search, search of what? Of Richard Allen's home, which they did end up searching. Because there were so many search warrants. I got to make sure which one is in jeopardy over an alleged lie by the sheriff.

Okay, hold on just a moment. I'm going to get into the meat of this. They claim that Norse god worshipers really killed the girls and everything else that's happening in the courtroom. But Rich Schoenstein is joining me, a veteran trial lawyer partnered with Tartar, Krinsky, and Drogon. Okay, I don't like that name because your name is not the lead name. I don't like that. And you need to fix that. Rich Schoenstein, you know, did you just hear Susan Hendricks say it was full of grammatical errors? That may be a small and consequential detail to a lot of people, but I can tell you this after trying so many cases, I've lost count and handling literally about 10,000 felonies. I know that's hard to believe, but think about it over 10 plus years and a felony courtroom

and you get about a hundred new cases a week added up. Those cases have to be resolved, whether it's a plea or a trial. That said, when I get a brief and the first thing I see is a lot of grammatical errors I'm like if they didn't even think to do a word check a spell check and they can't spell I doubt anything in here is going to really knock me out yeah well especially today when you you know that spell checks and grammar checks as you type. It's not like the old days when you and I began practicing where you'd have to type something and then get proofreaders on it. The machine proofs it while you go.

So if it's full of mistakes, if it's full of grammatical mistakes, if it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't look good, you're going to be less inclined to buy the arguments in it. That's just the bottom line. Exactly. And the fact that Susan Hendricks said full of grammatical errors, like she and I are big on grammar and grammatical errors and improper English, Jackie. So that said, if that's the first thing you notice, the rest of it, you're not going to be impressed. Now, can we get to the actual evidence? But you know, one more thing, Susan Hendricks, I just want to tell you, remember the other day you were sitting

in the courtroom with the victim's family and Richard Allen, the double murder suspect, who I believe stripped both little girls before he killed them. And God only knows what else. You mentioned that he kept turning around and glaring at you and the victim's family. And you and I talked about what that meant. People online went berserk saying, why are you focusing on the guy staring at Susan Hendricks and the family? That's doesn't matter. Actually, it does matter.

But now get ready because we're going to get it up the tailpipe about talking about grammar. So just go ahead and buckle your seatbelt. Anyway, back to the evidence. Listen. Richard Allen's defense is also fighting to have their third party culprit defense heard by the jury. Allen's attorneys insist that law enforcement did not fully investigate five men bound together by a Rushville Odinist club. Their theory stems from a 12-page filing by Trooper Kevin Murphy that the defense refers to as the Odin Report. The defense hires Don Perlmutter, an expert on ritualistic crimes. Perlmutter testifies that the crime scene is textbook.

Perlmutter sees runes on the sticks laid on top of Abby and Libby's bodies and points out a blood smear on a tree in the shape of the letter F, explaining that it is significant to Odinites. Okay, I'm going to need help getting through this because all I can envision are these two little girls, Abby and Libby, dead. Susan Hendricks, hold on, Susan, one moment. I'm going to come back to you about what in the evidence suggests the defense theory that a cult did this. And then I'm going to go to Dr. Mark Mirabello, former professor of history, Shawnee State University and author of The Odin Brotherhood. OK, if you want to know more about that, go to Mark Mirabello dot com. The Odin Brotherhood.

OK, before I get to that, Joe Scott Morgan is with us, along with Chris McDonough. Chris McDonough, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, about 300 death scenes, homicides to his credit. He is at coldcasefoundation.org. I found him on the interview room on YouTube. Before I go to him to analyze what Joe Scott's about to say, Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph, sorry, Joe Scott, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet. I'm waiting for the second book. It hasn't happened. And host of a hit series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, could you please describe as the defense is twitching its tail and gnashing its teeth, coming up with everybody and their sister that they can blame the murders on? Could you just give me a little reality check, Joe Scott, and explain how these girls.

I just got chills on my arms because when I said these girls, I thought about my girl and my boy. How these girls were found lying out in the open dead. Explain it. In a very isolated area, immediately adjacent to this body of water that is, that has flown, that flows beneath this bridge. It's densely wooded. However, there were no leaves on the tree, trees at this point in time. Remember, this is back in the early spring or just heading into spring. And they are, in my opinion, from what I'm understanding, essentially posed. The bodies have been stripped.

And you've got this event that has occurred where they are alleging that one of the bodies has been redressed with the clothing of another. OK, stop right there. Joe Scott. Yes, ma'am. You and I are used to looking at dead bodies. We're used to analyzing them, every little thing about them, the actual angle of a bullet as it travels through the body, which organs were decimated, trace evidence, touch evidence, fiber evidence, hair, you name it. Can we just pause for a moment and think about the person that stripped these little girls and then redressed one of them, of course, confusing the clothing. Could you go through that one more time? Out there on the ground in the woods, the little girls stripped, I guess, pre-mortem.

And then, do you remember Ted Bundy? Of course you do. Remember there's proof that he would actually take some of the victims' bodies and bathe them in a bathtub and fix their hair and makeup. But just think about the ritualistic redressing the idiot, of course, used the wrong clothes, but redressing a dead child's body. I mean, Joe Scott, we have to slow down and think about these facts. You and I just like spit it out. And it's better for me that way, because when I slow down to think about the facts, I can't sleep at night. I don't feel like eating.

I want to cry. But these are the facts and we can't turn away from it, Joe Scott. Yeah. And when you think about this idea of redressing, it's to my way of thinking, at least it's you have, you know, people throw around the term objectification all the time. This is literally pure objectification where you're talking about you have dehumanized the individual. They're treated like dolls at this point in time so that you can play dress up with them in some kind of twisted manner. I've actually been involved in a series of serial killings that I've investigated back in the early part of my career where an

individual would do the same thing. And it is evidence of kind of a demented mind that does this, that engages in almost this necrophilic behavior. Chilling details emerged during a three day hearing for the Delphi murders. Evidence pouring from the witness stand. And this is what has this is what has always driven me crazy among so many things, is that we on the outside looking in will know more of the evidence than the actual jury will ever know, because so much of this evidence is being ruled out. With me, an all-star panel, and we're stuck on the theory that paganists that worship Norse gods actually murdered Abby and Libby. Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator,

and I were just describing how the girls were completely naked, and then the killer redressed one of them. And I'm thinking about the mind of someone that would so desecrate a little girl in this manner. But we may think it's outlandish. We may think it's far-fetched. It is. That's why we think that. But if the defense can snag one juror and cause a mistrial, that's a huge victory for them. Just one juror that buys into this crazy zany thing. Now, I want you to listen to how they're taking a zany claim that worshipers of the Norse gods. I'm talking about Thor and Odin, you know, about the Valkyrie, the women warriors who fly through the sky. And even if they're killed in battle in this pretend world, they arise to fight the next day

again. That's what they believe. Okay. How can that be translated into a real life defense? Listen. The defense argues that Brad Holder, the father of Abby's boyfriend and a known odonist, was ruled out as a suspect too quickly. The defense alleges Holder posted several eerie photos on Facebook in the days after the murders, including one that appears to mimic the crime scene. Court documents say the pictures show two girls lying in the woods in positions similar to how Abby and Libby's bodies were discovered. Holder also posts runes and a photo with the letter F painted on a tree. Before I can even formulate my next question to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, I need to get some facts. Mark Mirabello is joining us, who has now shot to fame because of the book, The Odin Brotherhood, that he wrote before any of us had even heard of Odinism. Gee, how did we miss that? Odinism.

He had already written a book. Dr. Mark Mirabello, so great to have you with us. Now, the defense is claiming that Odinist actually murdered Libby and Abby, and they're pointing toward what they claim are runes, which I believe are rocks, but I'm not really sure, lying on the body or around the body. What are runes and what do they have to do with the pagan religion of Odinism? By the way, several points. First, I'm now a professor emeritus, which is retired in a great honor. Now, answering your question, the Vikings used the runes, and oddly enough, they seem to resemble a Truscan writing style from northern Italy. We're not certain of the origin. But the runes were designed to be carved into wood, bone, and stone.

Now, because the Vikings were overwhelmingly illiterate, like a lot of illiterate people, they thought writing was magical. And by the way, I should mention very clearly, writing is magical. With writing, you communicate with the future. You can read the thoughts of the past. So it really is magical. And in fact, in many cultures, like in ancient Egypt, writing something can cause magical acts to occur. Doctor, they claim that writing is magical. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. Okay. Oh, yeah. Back to the runes. Okay. Go ahead. The runes. Okay. Now, remember,

I'm a specialist in occultism and also magical lore and so forth. But let's get back to the runes. And frankly, let me just specify that this is not a human sacrifice. I mean, anyone who knows anything about the history of religion understands this is not a human sacrifice. The whole point of human sacrifice, and I remember when I was on your show last time, I made this point, I won't repeat myself, is a ritualized killing. It's what's called a comedy of innocence, where you pretend you're not really killing someone. A simple murder, you're killing someone, you're cutting their throat, whatever, shooting them. A ritual sacrifice is essentially you're pretending you're not. And the whole purpose of ritual sacrifice is to either earn the favor of the gods, give gratitude, atone for some kind of offense.

For example, the ancient Greeks, when they killed someone, would dip their hands, even soldiers, in a pig's blood that they had sacrificed to purify them. They couldn't go back in the temples. So, again, the sacrifice serves a purpose. And the important part is the ritual. You don't do this in the middle of nowhere and start spreading sticks on the bodies or putting an F on a tree. If this were really a sacrifice, the felon would bring the little girls to a location and he would act out a ritual. Kind of like the way, if you've ever seen the Dexter show, the serial killer, how he acts out a ritual when he kills the serial killers. Wait, see, see what you just said? I hope the state is listening.

Who doesn't know about Dexter, by the way, there's a reboot, just so you know. Let me take this in just for a moment because I'm formulating an opening statement and a closing statement. And in this case, the state will have the final closing statement, which is very, very critical for the state. It will be the last words the jury hears before jury instructions, before they go deliberate. And this is critical because see, I'm hanging on your every word. This could mean justice or injustice for the families of Abby and Libby. And I'm telling you right now, Dr. Mirabello, that this is the direction in which the defense is going. Why? Because they've already put it out there. They're kind of stuck with it now. Now, hold on. When you compared it to Dexter. Now, see, that's something a jury and myself, we can understand. I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, on all the Latin mumbo jumbo you throw out there and you expect all of us to understand it. We're not medical doctors, Joe Scott. We're not death investigators. But what he just said, what he just said, if you tell a jury and you compare to like Dexter,

someone that most people can relate to have seen it. And remember how he, Joe Scott, lays out plastic, surrounds himself with plastic and only uses certain tools and has a ritual where he puts the victim's pictures up all around the defendant and the defendant wakes up and sees what he has done before Dexter kills him. That's a ritual. And that's something jurors can latch onto to further Mirabello's assertion that this was no ritual. He basically molested and murdered two little girls in the woods. That's what happened. Get it? Yeah. Let me tell you something. I'm old enough to remember when every damn case out there was referred to as a ritualistic killing. When I started working back in the 80s, everything was pushed off on ritualism. There was a Satanist around every corner.

Need I remind people of the McMartin case, preschool case out in California? That was one of the biggest frauds that was ever foisted on the American public. And I think we're going down that road here, Nancy. You know, when you think about it, if you're talking about an individual that is out in the woods, there's going to be a very specific area. If this is a ritualized event, there will be an area where they do this all the time in this little area. It's ridiculous. We have assembled today the best and the brightest to take apart what we are learning from Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. OK, wait, wait, wait. I want to go back to Mirabello.

Dr. Mark Mirabello literally wrote the book on the Odin Brotherhood. As fantastical as this defense theory may sound, they're actually attaching it to real people. If just one juror gets sucked in, the state is screwed. Technical legal term. Listen. The defense team refers back to trooper Kevin Murphy's investigation during which he learned that Rushville Odinist Elvis Fields allegedly described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy writes that when questioned investigation during which he learned that Rushville odinist Elvis Fields allegedly described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy writes that when questioned about that admission, Fields denies any involvement in the murders, but strangely asks if he will be in trouble if

his spit is found on the girls' bodies. Fields also has ties to Brad Holder, frequently reposting or copying Holder's Facebook posts. Oh dear Lord in heaven. As a prosecutor, that's what I don't want to hear. Okay. But you have to hear it and you've got to confront it in your opening statement. Susan Hendricks, help me. The defense is going to claim under the Odinist theory that a Rushville onus elvis fields described the crime scene in detail to his sister now i can't i can explain that enough details had leaked out in the local area and sometimes in the press that he could latch on to those details and then regurgitate them to his sister. But I'm not sure what about him asking, will I be in trouble if my spit is on the girls?

Oh, yeah. Where did that come from? And the investigator, Nancy, Kevin Murphy, he was on the stand. And by the way, he broke down in tears when seeing the crime scene photos that were handed to him, breaking down in tears and saying, yes, I interviewed Elvis Fields. I pulled him up to his house. He came to my door and asked that question. And the former Indiana State Police officer, now retired, said I made a mistake. I should have had lunch with him or talked more about what he was talking about. But here's what stands out to me. They all have alibis. The cross-examination of the- Oh, thank you, Lord in heaven. I don't

care if he asks about a spit in his fingerprints. He has an alibi. That's all I need to hear. Are you sure this guy who is an odinist, where do these people come from? An odinist, Elvis Fields asked, hey, will I be in trouble if my spits on the dead girl's body? Uh, yeah. Are you telling me he has an alibi? Yes, no. Yes, and Brad Holder absolutely does. His ex-wife was on the stand saying, look, he did mention the girls and mentioned that killing and the murders. But the cross-examination was huge, Nancy.

Drink you from the fire hydrant, Susan Hendricks. Too much, too fast. We have to break it down. You do. You do. And you're incredible. But you've got to spoon feed it to me, okay? Because I've got to destroy, if I'm prosecuting the case, destroy every one of these theories one by one. So, okay, this guy, an odinist, go figure, Elvis Fields feels who says, well, I'd be in trouble if my saliva, my spit, his words, not mine, are on the dead girl's bodies.

OK, that would give cause for suspicion. He has an alibi. But what about the guy you just mentioned, Brad Holder? Listen, the defense also reveals that Brad Holder drunkenly tells his ex-wife that he had a falling out with his friend Patrick Westfall over an odinist ritual gone bad in February 2017. When Amber Holder presses her ex further, Holder tells her that Westfall admitted to Abby and Libby's murders and that she needs to keep quiet about it or they will kill her too. Oh, Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation. I found him on the interview room on YouTube during the Koberger, the initial phases of the investigation. Chris McDonough, what do we do with idiots who make false confessions, drunk confessions to their wives, crazy confessions to their sisters when they, there are alibis proving it's not them.

Well, the first thing you do is you slow down. And whenever Elvis enters the building, you stop and you think logically. OK, number one, you have the suspect on the bridge on video. OK, and if this is a you know, if we're going to the Vikings here, then, you know, they really worked really hard to make the universe on schedule that day, because you have this suspect on top of the bridge, and there's supposed to be this whole little coven underneath the bridge, you know, having this ritual of some sort. And then these two poor little victims who are out on a walk end up showing up. This case has all the indications of a highly sexually fantasized play out, fantasy playing itself out. Chris McDonough, do you ever have to leave

our program and then just go take a hot shower and scrub yourself? Did you hear what you just said? I mean, you just said that murdering these two little girls was part of, I believe you said, a highly sexualized fantasy. Killing two little girls, swapping parts of their clothes, leaving them naked out in the woods. Their bodies potentially being torn apart by animals while the parents and the grandparents are just like vomiting out of fear and pain, looking for their little children. I mean, that's his sex fantasy. You know what? Yeah. It's almost more than I can take in. You know, Nancy, not only that, think about the horror that the children

are going through, i.e. there's a gun involved. OK, he's he's stripping each of these children. And why is he doing this? Is he holding one of them at gunpoint? And while the other one is putting the other child's clothing on, does he then kill that victim in front of the other victim who ends up potentially running? There's evidence that one of the children were running at that point. This guy is playing out his fantasy and it's not going the way he wanted it to. And the brutality of this is shown the fact that a knife was now used and these four children, you know, had to suffer through that pain and that suffering in of itself. Two other Rushville Odinists with ties to Brad Holder, Elvis Fields, and Patrick Westfall

are also named as potentially missed suspects by the defense. Although the men live nearly 130 miles away, one of their girlfriends told investigators that she loaned her car to her boyfriend around Valentine's Day 2017 so he could visit Odinist friends in Delphi. Her boyfriend returned the car to her with dried blood down one side, and she says he refused to explain where the blood came from. What, is she a crime scene tech? Did she test the substance that was on the side of the car and know it to be blood and human blood? Really? So wait, is this guy, is this another specter part of the SOD? Some of the dude did it defense. The defense in this case is going to parade in front of the jury.

A girl, an ex-girlfriend, gee, can you imagine why? Says her boyfriend drives to Delphi so he can visit his odinist friends and comes back with blood on the side of the car and wouldn't explain it that that's not that is not a sufficient uh sufficient evidence to claim that boyfriend was responsible in one word susan hendricks it's going to be hard because you have so much knowledge now after sitting through all of these days and days and days of hearings can these guys be alibied by the state? Yes, no. Yes. And they can't be tied to the, at the cross-examination, I know it's one word, but they could not be tied to the crime scene at all. Any of them, even though they were investigated, which it was six plus years till anyone was arrested. So you understand the investigation, but then were they tied to the crime scene?

And they answer time and time again on the stand. No, no, no. Do they have alibis like were they punched in at work? Were there's a receipt placing them at Walmart? A Brad Holder was punched in. Yes, punched in at work and punched in at the gym. Brad Holder, yeah. What about the others?

I'm not sure if Elvis Fields has an alibi, the one who turned around and said, if my spit was at the scene. But nothing, nothing connects him, no evidence to the crime scene. I guarantee you right now, the state is scrambling to get an alibi for all of these guys. just explained, you have to be physically tied to the scene as we believe this guy, Richard Allen, is tied to the scene. But I want to go back to Dr. Mark Mirabello, Professor Emeritus of History, Shawnee State University, author of the Odin Brotherhood. You just explained how, unlike Dexter, there is no ritual at all regarding the murders of these two little girls, Abby and Libby. What else strikes you as proof this was not some sort of a ritualistic killer?

Ritualistic killer, yes. Go ahead. Well, off the top, one point that's curious is Elvis means I see God. Now, incidentally, for your audience, most of which are probably Christians, not all Norse pagans are called Odinists. They tend to be called Asatru. The more conservative are the Odinists. since the 1980s, I've never seen any evidence of human sacrifice or even animal sacrifice. Now, earlier peoples would sacrifice. Ancient Romans did, ancient Greeks did, and so forth. Incidentally, Paul in his writings refers to Christians eating meat offered to devils. What he's referring to is you could not slaughter an animal in ancient Greece or Rome. It was always ritually killed. And again, back to the point, they call the modern... Dr. Mirabello, you've heard of forest trees. What about this scene tells you it's not a ritualistic killing? As I said before, and it's really clear, they would not do something in such a haphazard way. I want to make it very clear that, and this is important, it sounds like I'm moving the weeds,

but it's not. Earlier peoples all practiced various forms of sacrifice. And if it had been one offered to Odin, it would be what's called a sky sacrifice with a piercing. And that's based on the Old Norse story that Odin sacrificed himself to himself. And by the way, we find bodies from the Middle Ages where they're sacrificed this way. And what the sky sacrifice reverts to, he hanged himself on the world tree. That's the tree that holds up the nine worlds, which is the universe.

And then pierced himself with a spear as an offering of himself to himself. Now, 19th century scholars thought this was a curious story. Please stop. TMI, too much information. Now, while I personally am fascinated by everything you're saying, and that's not tongue in cheek, I actually mean it. I can't put all this in front of a jury. That's just like you're an encyclopedia. You're a walking encyclopedia as it relates to the Odin

Brotherhood. But I have to think and practicalities. I have to say to a jury, this is not a ritualistic killing because X, Y, Z. And then I need to put you on the stand and very simply explain why. Here's a good start. Listen. On cross-examination, Prosecutor Nicholas McClellan points out that pearl mutter also had quote no doubt the murders were ritualistic in a tv appearance months before reviewing any evidence mclean also claims alan admitted he only used the sticks on the bodies to cover them a blood pattern expert

testifies the apparent letter f is likely just a smear from blood on abby's hand and mclean gets pearl mutter to admit there's no physical evidence tying any of the named Odinists to the crime scene. Okay, Susan Hendricks, let me understand what I just heard from Crime Online's Dave Mack. The expert that's going to come on at trial committed to a ritualistic Odinistic killing before he ever saw any evidence. Is that correct? It is. And she was on the stand for some time talking about why she thought it was this way. So Nick McClellan said, well, what if I told you she mentioned a knife being part of that ritual? He said, what if I told you during the confessions, he said it was a box cutter.

Would that change your mind? No. Well, also, the blood pattern expert explains the letter F is likely a blood smear from Abby's hand. And the so-called expert has to admit no physical evidence ties any of these odinists to the crime scene. And then we have to deal with all of the confessions. Guys, take a listen to this. On the witness stand, Dr. Monica Walla, an Indiana Department of Corrections psychologist treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed the accused killer spiraling

just before the confessions began. Walla describes Allen banging his head against the wall, eating his own feces, and frequently speaking of suicide. Walla testifies that staff is providing Allen antipsychotic medications at least once a month. While special judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the admissibility of Richard Allen's many confessions, testimony did sway her to vacate a safekeeping order and remove Allen from the Westville Correctional Facility. Allen will instead be held at the Cass County Jail. Boo-hoo.

Did anybody ever think Richard Schoenstein, veteran trial lawyer, that he's spiraling because he got caught for the double murders of two little children? Sure, that's a possibility. But, you know, Nancy, the guy's got due process rights. I mean, we get to have a trial. He gets to put on a defense. If he wants to argue Odinus did it and he has some evidence in that regard, I think he gets to put it on. Well, of course he does. And in fact, Rich Schoenstein,

I would be angry. I'd be mad if he didn't. I hope he tries to blame the worshipers of the Norse gods. But what I'm telling you is the defense is claiming, oh, he's out of his mind when he gave all these 60 plus confessions to inmates, to guards, to his wife on the phone that he didn't know what he was saying. I would submit, Rich Schoenstein, that he started spiraling out of control because he realized it's over. They caught me. I'm in jail. I've been busted on two murders. I killed two little girls. That is one possible explanation. But another possible explanation is that he's been imprisoned for something he didn't do. And it's making him crazy. And it's up for a jury to decide which of

those explanations is correct. OK, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. That's not going to work, Schoenstein. Maybe in front of a jury, but not here. You're in Nancy land now. You can't claim he's so upset because he's wrongly confused and that he confessed over 60 times. Why not? Why are those two things inconsistent? Why is it inconsistent? Because if he's unjustly accused, then why would he confess?

I don't know. I mean, listen, it's not what I would do, but the theory is he's been driven to it by being put in solitary confinement, by being pulled away from his family. Look, I don't think the jury is going to buy it either. Hey, you know what, Schoenstein? You know who was pulled away from their family? Abby and Libby. Totally agree.

Guys, we wait as the evidence unfolds in a court of law. How much of this will the jury ever hear? Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast