Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Derek Chauvin/George Floyd trial commences. WHAT WILL TESTIMONY SHOW?

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

Opening statements made today in the murder trial of the former Minneapolis police officer charged with killing George Floyd. Derek Chauvin is charged with second-degree murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter for the death of the unarmed man, who died in May 2020 after Chauvin knelt on his neck for several minutes. Floyd’s arrest–for allegedly using a counterfeit bill at a grocery store–was caught on police bodycam video and sparked worldwide protests against police brutality.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jason Oshins - New York Defense Attorney Dr. Jorey L. Krawczyn - Retired Police Psychiatrist, Child Abuse Expert Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner, State of Florida, www.pathcaremed.com Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic Angenette Levy - Emmy-nominated Reporter & Anchor, Twitter: @Angenette5 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. It is day one of the trial of former officer Derek Chauvin. If that name does not ring a bell, maybe the name Mr. George Floyd will ring a bell. How did it get here? As we wait for trial to begin, still wondering how we ended up in this scenario. First of all, take a listen to this. For 31 years, Cup Foods has been a part of the South Minneapolis community. We don't just work in that community. That is our community. We know the community. It's a vibe that is unmatched to any other community. It's

the best thing that's happened to our family. The family-owned business has come under fire after a phone call to police about the passing of a counterfeit $20 bill. The staff that called the police followed protocol. When he identified the bill was fake, the patron was out of the establishment. When the police arrived, he was outside of the establishment, which normally never takes place. Why he was still there, we're not sure. Most of the time when patrons give us a counterfeit bill, they don't even know it's fake. So when the police are called, there's no crime being committed. They just want to know where they got it from. And that's usually what takes place.

I don't understand why Cup Foods came under fire there in Minneapolis for following protocol when they get fake money. You're hearing our friend at WCCO CBS 4, that's Rose Chapman. But take a listen to this, our friends at Fox 9 KMSP. The initial 911 call about a forgery in progress came in at 802 Monday evening. Two officers walk across the street and approach opposite sides of the vehicle, which already had at least one door open. The officer on the passenger side shining a flashlight in the SUV as a man gets out. At that same time, George Floyd and one of the other officers on the driver's side begins to visibly struggle and the other officer comes to assist.

Meanwhile, the man in the front passenger seat and a woman in the back seat exit the vehicle. At this point, Floyd is clearly cuffed and walked away from the SUV and seated on the sidewalk just as a park police vehicle pulls up to assist. Through body camera footage from the park police, we see officers taking notes, talking with witnesses, and things appear to be calm and routine. So I think at this juncture, everybody agrees on the facts so far. The scene is calm and, quote, routine. That quickly changes.

Take a listen to this body cam footage. Let me see your hands. Damn, man. Stay in the car. Let me see your other hand. changes, take a listen to this body cam footage. Put your hand up there. Put your f***ing hand up there. Jesus Christ. Keep your f***ing hands on the wheel. Keep your f***ing hands on the wheel. Who else is in the car? Put your foot back in. God dang, man. Man, I got shot the same way as I was before.

Okay, well, when I say let me see your hands, you put your f***ing hands up. You got them? Put your hands on top of your head. You are hearing body cam footage as Officer Lane approaches the vehicle man inside. They get Mr. Floyd out of the car. Still no incident. Everything's fine. Listen to more of that body cam footage now. Not moving. Put your hands behind your back then. I'm not going to do nothing. Everything's fine. Listen to more of that body cam footage now. Not moving. Put your hands behind your back then.

I'm not going to do nothing. Face the floor. Hey, you come back. Stay in the car. Stop resisting, man. Yes, you are. Stand up. Stand up for me. Stand up.

Come on. Walk with me. Walk with me. Walk with me. Walk with me. Stand up. Stand up. Come on. We're trying to get out of the street here so you don't get hit by a car. Take a seat. Sit down for me. Thank you, man. Thank you. Sit down. Thank you, man. Sit all the way down. you, man. Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Sit down. Thank you, man. God.

Sit all the way down. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I will. Please, man. Please. Please, man. You got an ID on you? I got going on.

All right. What's your name? George. George? George Perry Floyd. I don't know what's going on. How does everything go so wrong? Today, day one of the trial of Officer Derek Chauvin.

With me, an all-star panel to try and make sense of what's happening right now in a court of law. With me, veteran trial lawyer joining me out of the New York jurisdiction, Jason Oceans. Police psychologist, adjunct faculty, St. Leo University, author of Practical Recommendations to Help Stop Officer Suicide, Dr. Jory Croson, Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find them at pathcaremed.com. Karen Smith, forensic expert, lecturer, University of Florida, and host of Shattered Souls podcast at Karen's Forensic. But first, to Anjanette Levy, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor, and you can find her on Twitter at Anjanette5. Anjanette Levy, thank you for being with us. Everything quickly

degenerated from there, but let me fast forward for one moment. What's happening right now in the courthouse? Well, Nancy, thanks so much for having me. Earlier today, the Reverend Al Sharpton and Ben Crump held a press conference. They kneeled for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Ben Crump said this morning that this is not a difficult case. Obviously, the defense disagrees with that and believes that George Floyd died of a fentanyl overdose and some pre-existing heart issues. They're going to argue that was the actual cause of death and not Derek Chauvin's knee on George Floyd's neck. So opening statements begin and we are going to hear both sides lay out their cases really for the world.

Very quickly to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, Derek Chauvin is on video holding his knee into George Floyd's neck to now say Floyd died of a fentanyl OD in preexisting conditions. Isn't that saying like, I died of a fentanyl OD in pre-existing conditions, isn't that saying like, I died of asthma because my house burned down with me asleep inside? I mean, am I wrong? I mean, what can you tell me about this alleged fentanyl OD? Was that a contributing

factor? But this is a criminal case. Hold on. Jason Ocean is a veteran trial lawyer. In a civil case, for instance, you and I have a car crash and I ran a red light, but you were going 85 MPH in a 35 mile zone. So the jury in comparative jurisdictions compares who's at fault and say, you're 40% wrong, I'm 60% wrong. That's how they come up with a money verdict. But this is criminal law. It doesn't work like that. No, it doesn't. Reasonable doubt and things that you use as defense counsel to try and move the story versus, you know, let's say in the OJ trial, civilly found liable,

much higher, you know, much lower standard than a criminal case where liberty is at stake. So as you're asking, Dr. Tam, and getting into the tox report and getting into the, you know, maybe some of the ligature marks perhaps around the neck and looking at the ME's report for any broken bones or bruises to the windpipe, you know, with the video doesn't in any way possibly cover that. So these will be part of the defense strategy going forward. Quite, quite relevant to the whole story. Okay.

So how does it work, Dr. Tim Gallagher? How do you decide, did he die of asphyxiation, not strangulation, but asphyxiation from having Chauvin's knee on his neck versus a fentanyl OD? I mean, is that far-fetched or is that real? Well, it's very real in today's argumentative world, but, you know, here you have— Hey, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not talking about a bunch of lawyers claiming things. I mean, in your world, a world that's based on autopsies and hard scientific fact, I mean— It's not like we don't argue amongst ourselves. What do we know about what the autopsy reveals?

And again, it's not like we don't argue amongst ourselves. We do. But here, you know, we have many competing causes of death, you know, and then one thing that we have to remember is that George Floyd had the fentanyl in his system and he had whatever heart condition he had pre-existing before he got apprehended by law enforcement. You know, he was alive. He was very much alive having those two conditions present within his body. Now that you add the apprehension maneuvers done by the law enforcement and now he's dead, you know, so he was alive before they did it. He was dead after they did it, you know, so it's it seems to be a very fundamental argument to prove that the physical assault was done. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, it's day one of the Derek Chauvin trial, the murder trial going down right now. And with me is Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. But first, listen to this. Get in the car. He know it. He know it through his eyes. Y'all hear me? Don't do me like that, man. Get in the car. Okay, can I talk to you, please?

Get in this car. We can talk. I am. I'm claustrophobic. I'm hearing you. You're not working with me. God, I'm claustrophobic. Get in the car. Get in this car, we can talk! I am, it's all I'm claustrophobic! I'm claustrophobic, man! I'm hearing you, but you're not working with me! God, I'm claustrophobic, man! Get in the car! I can't stand it, man! Get in the car! Can you get me in the front?

Please! No, you're not getting in the front! I'm claustrophobic, it's all I'm saying! Get in the car! Okay, man, okay! I'm not a bad guy, man! Get in the car! I'm not a bad guy!

Ah! Ah! Oh, man! I'll open my door! Please, please! Sit! Please! Take a seat! Ah! Please, man! Please! I can't choke. I can't breathe. Please. My wrist.

My wrist, man. My wrist, man. I can't. I'm on the ground. I'm on the ground. Come on. I can't. I'm on the ground.

I'm on the ground. I'm on down, I'm going down. Get in the squad. I'm going down, I'm going down. I'm not going to lose you. You're going down hard. Okay, now hearing that, you may believe that's when Mr. Floyd was on the ground. But that is at the point to Anjanette Levy, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor. That is when they're trying to put him in the police car.

And he will not get in the back because he says he's got claustrophobia. And somebody screams out, he's about to have a heart attack yeah because they're trying to struggle him into the back because you hear them saying you're not getting in the front where the the steering wheel and the gas pedals are that's not happening and so somebody screams out he's about to have a heart attack at this juncture Anjanette Levy aren't they still trying to get him into the back seat of the car? Yeah, and if there's, you know, there are several different body camera videos out there that give you kind of different angles. You have to kind of watch all of them to really see what's going on. So they're trying to get him in through the sides of the car that's next to

cop food. So, or right there by you know by the sidewalk right and then they put him in and then um i believe it's in it's hard to tell but i believe then one of them goes around the other side and i think it might even be chauvin um and they try to pull him through the other side you know they try to get him in like from both sides and he he's just he won't do it he can't get in now he is resisting and he's saying look i i can't get in there i i don't want to get in there i'm claustrophobic etc and so they're trying to pull him through and then at that point he's just it's this big struggle to get him in the vehicle and he's a big guy six four right well i can tell you right now to jason oceans new york

defense attorney when a bystander yells out he's going to have a heart attack, that is going to be used by Chauvin's defense to say Floyd was so worked up over getting in the squad car, it was inducing a heart attack. Well, certainly the video gives, you know, any layperson the perspective of fear. I don't know what you're talking about, a lay person, like you're looking down your snoot, because that's who's on the jury, lay people. They're not lawyers. But you're asking, Nancy, about that comment relative to where it is. The jurors are going to be hearing it in a different context.

So certainly that does highlight, now that's even before any activity or engagement with the defendant and Mr. Floyd, it certainly gives everyone the perspective in a heightened state that Mr. Floyd was quite jacked up on his own and was seemingly just from a simple stop and ID on a counterfeit 20 was, you know, breaking down in front of you vis-a-vis the video. To the point, Jason Ocean, somebody in the crowd says he's about to have a heart attack. I still am not buying that this guy had a fentanyl OD because a fentanyl OD, you're not out up and about walking around and talking to Dr. Tim Gallagher. If you have a fentanyl OD, you're passed out, right? It's true. A fentanyl OD is a central nervous system depressant and it slows down all of your body functions. So this guy is not having a fentanyl OD. I mean, hey, you're the MD. I'm just a JD, but I know what a

fentanyl OD does. You pass out and then you die. This guy is not passing JD but I know what a fentanyl OD does you pass out and then you die this guy's not passing out this is not a fentanyl OD Nancy he had he had a lot of drugs in him on the toxin not just the fentanyl are you a doctor because I thought you're a JD not an MD I know your voice Jason I know that's you as the layperson looking at the video going, he's having a heart attack. Okay. All right. You're using my own words against me. Okay. Go ahead. But can you put it in a soundbite, please? And not some big, long, legal diatribe. What are you saying? From the viewpoint of the video, it certainly appears that mr floyd is having a greater reaction internally on something one would think relative to what's going down in front of him he was quite quite jacked up oh no have you ever been dragged into a car by your feet pulled across claiming that you

had a fake 20 i mean he's saying he didn't know anything about it being a fake 20. I bet you'd throw a fit too, Jason Oceans. That's all fine, but most of us put our hands on the steering wheel and just react that way without becoming violent. Well, yeah, I would do that because I don't want to get shot. Okay, guys. So, Dr. Tim Gallagher, before Jason Oceans

injected his medical opinion, Dr. Gallagher, when you have a fentanyl OD, you pass out and die, right? You don't get jacked up like you would on meth. That's exactly right. You'll go into a coma, you'll have labored breathing, your breathing will stop, and you will die in a fentanyl overdose. That's correct. It goes from, and all the struggle as Anjanette Levy is telling us, what you just heard is just trying to get Floyd in the back seat. But right now, he's still alive. Take a listen to more. You're hearing Officer Thomas Lane's body cam footage.

Listen. I cannot breathe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, We tried that for ten minutes. Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!

Leave! Leave! Leave! Leave! Ah! You all on the side? No, I'm free. know if you're like this, Jason Oceans, but as the witness would be talking or the sound would be playing, I'd keep a constant eye on the jury.

How are they reacting? Back and forth like a tennis match. Witness, jury, witness, jury. And as that was played, I looked over at Jackie here in the studio. She had her eyes closed and her hands over her mouth like that. That's what that jury is going to be doing. Guys, we are in day one of the Derek Chauvin trial and the death of Mr. George Floyd. It culminates with this. Take a listen to Leah Benno, KMSP Fox 9. Floyd is then escorted across the street to the waiting patrol car. From there, we can see the struggle continue. It's unclear how much time passes, but next we see the witness video which has now been seen around the world. Over the course of the next three and a half minutes Floyd is heard saying please I can't breathe or a combination of both at least 14 times as people on

the sidewalk beg the officer to get off him or the other officers to intervene. Get up and get in the car, man. I will. Get up and get in the car. Get up and get in the car. Mama. Get up and get in the car, right. Less than three and a half minutes into the video, Floyd goes quiet. According to the Minneapolis Fire Incident Report, EMTs were called to the scene at 8.30, arriving two minutes later. Medics performed pulse checks several times, finding none.

Floyd's time of death at HCMC officially declared at 9.25 p.m. To Anjanette Levy, joining us, Emmy award-winning reporter and anchor. Anjanette, was he calling out for his mother? Yeah, that he was crying out for his mother. And the prosecution said they were going to actually have a witness that they're going to put on the stand for what they call spark of life testimony. And that's to basically put like a human,

to introduce the jury to the human being who lost their life in this case. And they said they'll be talking about that, why he was crying out for his mother. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Earlier we played for you a sound where you hear an officer asking if they should, quote, roll him on his side. What's the significance of that, Dr. Tim Gallagher?

What would rolling Mr. Floyd over on his side have done, if anything? Well, it probably would have taken some of the pressure off of his rib cage, which would allow his muscles of breathing to work much better and allow him more air into his lungs. To you and Jeanette Levy, Emmy-nominated reporter and anchor, what exactly did the autopsy reveal as COD, cause of death? Well, it's very interesting because it discussed that George Floyd died from, you know, that he died from law enforcement pressure. It discussed that it was law enforcement subdual and due to the pressure that was applied to him that he passed away from that and that it was some type of cardiac issue related to that. It's interesting because that was the final

report from the autopsy. That was the finding. However, there are some notes that the defense is probably going to cite when they question Dr. Baker, the Hennepin County medical examiner, where he stated that absent other factors or if Floyd had been found at home, he would have ruled the cause of death. But this is what I don't understand. Dr. Tim Gallagher, he wasn't found at home. He didn't die at home of a drug overdose. And according to the report, quote, Floyd's death was caused by the combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by police, underlying health conditions, and potential intoxicants in his system. So is the medical examiner trying to say he would have just died on his own from opioids in his system?

Because I don't believe that. Well, what the medical examiner here is saying is that he did find something in the toxicology report that cannot be ignored. So it has to be because it's also a central nervous system depressant, and this guy died after he went into respiratory arrest, that this finding in the toxicology report cannot be ignored, and then by default, it has to be added to a contributory cause of death. It's actually there, and we cannot ignore it. Okay, Dr. Gallagher, I know you're a medical examiner

and there's that medical examiner on George Floyd's case, but Dr. Gallagher, are you trying to tell me that you think Floyd would have died from a fentanyl overdose? No, not at all. But what I'm trying to say here is that because his respiratory system was suppressed and suppressed mechanically, meaning somebody was leaning on him. This drug also, its effect on the body is to suppress the respiratory system. The drug alone in his body may not have had the ability to suppress it enough to cause a medical problem, but with the combined effect of the restraint and some of the influence of the drugs, it is possible that fentanyl could have been a contributing factor. But in the law, in a criminal case, it's not

possible. It's got to be probable beyond a reasonable doubt. Floyd had 11 NG slash mLs of fentanyl in his blood. What does that mean, Dr. Gallagher? Well, the minimum dose of fentanyl that we know that is fatal is three. You can die from three nanograms of fentanyl in your blood. For somebody who is naive to the drug, who has not built up a tolerance. So what would be very beneficial in this case is to understand George Floyd's fentanyl use. Is he a chronic user, meaning has he built up a tolerance to where now his body can stand 11 nanograms? Doctor, what is a quote heavy heart a heavy heart is a result

of several diseases most commonly uh high blood pressure a heavy heart is any heart that weighs over 425 or 450 grams in this case george floyd had one artery about 75% blocked. You know, my father was a heart patient since his late 30s. I'm very familiar with artery blockages. And having one blocked artery, that's not going to cause, I don't think it's going to cause, coronary thrombosis ending in death. Very debatable. One artery blocked?

Well, you have three of them. Unless it's a widowmaker. Right. Not all of them carry the same importance. You're right. You did mention the word widowmaker, and that's a common term that we use for the heart artery called the left anterior descending coronary artery. It runs right down the front of the heart,

and that's the part of the heart that does most of the work. So if that artery is blocked, then if that one artery is blocked and the heart is demanding blood because now he is in a very highly emotional state, his heart rate is increased, that one artery, that critical artery, is now blocked to the point the blood cannot flow through it. The heart is not going to get the blood it demands, and it will stop beating in protest. What you have been hearing in the last 20 minutes is exactly what's going to be laid out in opening statements. You're going to hear that Derek Chauvin put his knee on Mr. Floyd's neck and Mr. Floyd died. The jury will also hear about fentanyl in Mr. Floyd's system and about his so-called, quote, heavy heart. It's all coming to a head right now in a court of law. This is where the rubber meets

the road. We are talking about the Derek Chauvin trial. It's happening now. Take a listen to our friends at WCCO CBS4. Why is the man who killed George Floyd not in jail? An emotional mayor, WHO KILLED GEORGE FLOYD NOT IN JAIL. AN EMOTIONAL MAYOR JACOB FRY DEMANDED THE ARREST OF FORMER POLICE OFFICER DEREK SHAVAN AND THAT HANNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY MIKE FREEMAN CHARGE HIM CRIMINALLY. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A

SPLIT SECOND DECISION THAT WAS MADE INCORRECTLY. THE MINNEAPOLIS FIRE DEPARTMENT REPORT SAYS E-M-T'S WERE CALLED TO THE SCENE FOR A PATIENT THAT HAD TRAUMA TO HIS MOUTH. THE REPORT GOES ON TO SAY THAT

WHEN E-M-T'S ARRIVED, HCMC MEDICS WERE ALREADY WORKING WITH THEM. EMTs were called to the scene for a patient that had trauma to his mouth. The report goes on to say that when EMTs arrived, HCMC medics were already working on an unresponsive, pulseless male. We've all seen the shocking video of George Floyd's last moments. Now the attorney for Floyd's family and law enforcement are asking anyone with any other videos to please come forward. This they brave? This video shows what the other doesn't, that all four officers were at Floyd's side.

Opening statements have commenced in the trial of Officer Derek Chauvin, age 45, in the death of 46-year-old Mr. George Floyd. To Karen Smith, forensic expert, lecturer, University of Florida, host of Shattered Souls podcast, weigh in. What forensics are going to be brought into trial, Karen? Well, I think we've already heard from the doc about most of the forensics. And, you know, my job when I would go to a scene like this is to remain unbiased and objective. And it's really difficult when you have a case like this. But one thing I do want to point out, Nancy, as a retired cop, I can tell you that there is no standard

operating procedure. There's no training in existence that would allow an officer to keep his knee on an individual's neck for over eight minutes. We have a use of force matrix that's used when officers encounter an individual. And what I saw was passive resistance in that video. And that calls for nothing more than what term pain compliance. And that can be as simple as bending a wrist to get the handcuffs on a person. And after a few minutes, we saw that George Floyd was then thrown on the ground. He did not pose a threat. And Derek Chauvin has his hands in his pocket, which is something that officers are trained to never do. So that tells me that there was absolutely no threat from George Floyd,

and you couple that with the number of officers on the scene, and there's no reason to keep him prone on the ground like that, especially when you're right next to a patrol vehicle. Once you put your hands on a person as a police officer, that person is now in your care and control, and the responsibility lies with that officer to ensure that person's safety and well-being, and that was not done in this case. Question to you, Karen Smith. Why is it SOP and officers never to put hands in pockets?

Because that is an officer safety issue. The one thing that people can use to attack you is their hands. That's why we're trained. You watch their hands. You don't we're trained. You watch their hands. You don't watch their eyes. You watch their hands. That's why you put your hands on the steering wheel or on the doorframe so we can see them. Officers have to keep their hands free so that we can reach for a weapon if we need it, so that we can put our hands on that person if we need to. you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the trial has started in the case of Derek Chauvin, and you can see it live, not only at CrimeOnline.com where we're streaming it live, but also on Court TV.

Joining me right now is police psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, research consultant with the Blue Wall Institute, Dr. Jory Croson. Dr. Croson, thank you for being with us. Way in, please. Yeah, the first thing that really came to my mind when I watched the video and listened to it was Floyd's going through psychological distress. And there were no calming techniques, even once they got him under control. And especially if he's claustrophobic and he's got drugs in his system, the claustrophobia,

any kind of a fear or a phobia gets really blown out of proportion when you're under the influence of drugs. Putting him in the car, you could tell he's in a full-blown fight-or-flight survival mode. So, of course, that's going to accelerate his heart, his respiratory system, all of that. You know, they could have, like they said, when they had him down on the side, sitting on the road there, start calming his techniques, applying those, there was no way that I think he was going to willingly get in that car. And even if he did, I could almost guarantee you he'd be thrashing around, he'd be striking his head. You know, there was just, it went, like you say, degenerated from that point forward. Guys, at CrimeOnline.com, you can watch the Derek Chauvin trial live.

Right now, it all will be in the hands of 12 jurors. To Dr. Jory Croson, what do you think this jury is going through and what emotional impact is this going to have on them? We expect their opening statements, frankly, to last at least one full day, if not longer. jury is going through and what emotional impact is this going to have on them. We expect their opening statements, frankly, to last at least one full day, if not longer. They're going to be really under some serious stress, not only for the evidence that they're going to view, what they're going to hear, but also the ramifications that they're going to have to come up with and weigh and bring out in their verdict. And to you, Anjanette Levy, tell me how long. I've heard rumors of opening statements lasting one to two days.

Is that even possible? I mean, lawyers can talk. They can talk for a long time. So I don't know if I'm going to judge Cahill's been very flexible, but I, I don't know, that sounds like a really long time. I don't know if that's even necessary. You know, it's a case where you have the whole, you know, the whole incident on videotape and on several videotapes, or I guess I should say video files. So how you would need that long, I just don't know how anybody would need that long. I'm not sure either, but I do expect this, Jason Oceans. I

expect there have been motions in limine to keep certain evidence out and evidentiary hearings ahead of trial to get certain evidence in, which you have to do if you want that evidence to come in your opening statement. Otherwise, you'll have to wait for the witness to take the stand to get that evidence introduced. So I expect for these body cam videos to be played in opening statements, maybe by both sides. What do you think? It's entirely possible, Nancy. I think that's...

I know it's possible. I'm asking you what you think. I'm telling you, I think it might very well happen. It does not usually. Man, you ought to go to law school, man, because you can to the video and or any, you know, toxicology or other evidence that nuance some of that will be very significant. So I would not be surprised if both put in. Dr. Joy Carlson, I hear what Dr. Gallagher is saying about the heart ailment and the fentanyl. And I know the fentanyl was a lot in his system. But that visual, the visual of Chauvin, hands in his pockets, looking off the other way with his knee and Floyd's neck. I just can't get around that visual. That's going to be very powerful.

And even as a police officer, you know, like it's always, you don't put your hands in your pocket. That's such a nonchalant. The man is dying and he's got his hands in his pocket. It's like he's going to check the time. The man is dying under his knee. Yeah. Very hard to overcome. I don't know how you get around that. Guys, the George Floyd Derek Chauvin trial is happening now. You can see it live at Crimeonline.com. We will bring you updates throughout the day. Well, I can say this, whether the courthouse falls down around them, they must render a verdict that speaks truth.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.