Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DESPERATE SEARCH FOR BABY AFTER YOUNG MOM REBECCA, 22, FOUND DEAD IN WOODS, INFANT CUT FROM STOMACH

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Feeling contractions at 38 weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes to the hospital on November 2, even though her due date is not until November 18. An exam reveals she is not in labor, and Rebecca goes to pick up her biological mother to run errands. Rebecca has $2,000 cash she receives as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby.  Rebecca Park's fiancé, Richard Lee Falor, is trying to get in touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying to text messages. Knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother, Falor calls Cortney Bartholomew, who says Rebecca got into a black-colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight and left. Falor reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford County Sheriff's office. Searches organized for the 22-year-old mom-to-be, who is 38 weeks pregnant, are done with a sense of urgency. Michigan State Police find Rebecca's phone alongside the road near her mother's house. On a trail directly behind the home of Rebecca's mother, Cortney Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca Park. Investigators are not releasing information about the condition of the body or if a newborn baby has been found. Joining Nancy Grace: Randolph Rice - Former Prosecutor and Current Criminal Defense & Civil Attorney at Rice Law, website: ricelawmd.com, IG, FB, X: @ricelawmd Dr. Shari Schwartz - X: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"  Dan Murphy - Former NYPD Detective-Sergeant, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Former Chief Security Officer, US Bancorp, Co-Host of "Gold Shields" Podcast, Author: “Workplace Safety: Establishing an Effective Violence Prevention Program” Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Instagram @JoScottForensic Allan Lengel - Editor of Deadline Detroit -(an online daily publication), Former Washington Post reporter Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The desperate search goes on for a baby. After a young mom to be, Rebecca, just 22 years old, is found dead in a heavily wooded area. Her infant cut from her stomach. What ghouls. would do this. Can you say death penalty? Because I can. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime

stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Rebecca Park, a 22-year-old mother from Wexford County is eagerly anticipating the arrival of her third child. She is a devoted mom of two young boys. But as her due date approaches, Rebecca misses the birth of her baby and vanishes. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to me. A 22-year-old mom to be just days away from giving birth disappears. Her body found in a heavily wooded area. At first, all we knew was the baby wasn't there. Now we know the baby has been cut from her stomach, leaving the mom to die, bleed out in the woods. Where's the baby? Straight out to Professor Forensics Death Investigator Joseph Scott Morgan joining us. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

the author of Blood Beneath My Feet and Star of a Hit podcast, Body Baggs with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is not the first time we have seen this scenario. And you and I both remember the first time it came to the forefront of national headlines, and it was in the Scott Peterson case when one of the theories that defense attorney Martin Gehr goes floated out there, I believe he first put it out there on the Larry King show to just see, test the waters and it bombed was that someone had taken Lacey, had cut the baby out of her stomach, Connor, baby boy Connor, and that the whole thing was about getting the baby and possibly selling the baby. And we were all like, no, that would never happen. That's too far-fetched.

Well, Joe Scott, it's not too far-fetched. So can a baby live when it's, I think, Rebecca only had a few days before she was set to deliver. Could the baby live if it's cut out of the mom's stomach? Sure. You're talking about a mother that's at a, the baby is at a 30, allegedly at a 38-week gestational age. That's well beyond survivability, you know, when you begin to think about this. It's certainly possible. It's plausible that this could happen.

I got to tell you, Nancy, out of all the cases that we've covered in recent memory, This is one of the most horrific when you begin to think about what she endured. So, yes, with a child like this, I have no other way to put it. You can have ghouls, as you put it out there, that would want to go and harvest a baby in order to sell it on the market. And that can, that is plausible, I think, and I think that that's something that needs to be explored in this case. Just Scott, you could not be more correct. Sadly, the case recovering tonight of Rebecca, set to give birth in just days found dead, baby cut out of stomach is not the first time the scenario has played out. I don't know if you recall Michelle Wilkins, I remember, listen.

Cotter sentenced Dinell Lane to 100 years in prison for faking her own pregnancy, then luring Michelle Wilkins into her home and cutting Wilkins almost full-term baby out of her womb. I've never seen a case as vicious, as cruel, as deliberate, and as awful as this case. Because of Colorado laws, the majority of charges in this case were related to Wilkins' injuries, not the harm inflicted on the unborn child. That from C-H-H-CV-J on TikTok, a perfect capsulation. But in this case, Michelle Wilkins, actually lived long enough to call 9. 111. Listen. 911.

Address of the emergency. Okay, what tell me what happened? She cut me. Who cut you? downstairs. I don't know. Okay, hold on. Hang on.

Hold on. Please. I'm down stairs. Okay, who cut you? This is a girl. I responded to. To Dave Mac, joining me Crime Stories. Investigative reporter, Dave Mack.

I understand in that case, Michelle Wilkins had gone online to a baby chat group. How did she meet her killers, Dave Mack? The killer actually lured her with maternity clothes. Come on by. I'll hook you up. You know, one of those things that happens in those chat rooms is they're women who are going through the same thing at the same time, and they quickly bond. And that's how she lured her over and invited her into the house up until the moment she's attacked.

She thinks she's there to pick up some maternity clothes. To Randolph Rice joining us, a former prosecutor, criminal defense attorney, and civil lawyer at Rice Law. What do you do? How do you defend ghouls like this? Now, in this case, the mom lived and all the other cases we are covering tonight, the mom died and in many of them, the baby died. my first question nancy is is was this a natural birth that somehow went wrong and maybe maybe rebecca park is trying to cut the baby out herself that may be a defense okay what did you just say it's possible in this situation as a defense attorney that they may argue that this was somehow a natural birth that rebecca park may have potentially tried to cut the baby out herself Randolph Rice, okay, don't ruin your currently stellar reputation, okay, because to believe

what you just said would mean that Rebecca Park goes out in a heavily wooded area and chooses the dirt on the ground to perform a self-induced Cessarian section. Is that what you're claiming would be a great defense? I'm open to all defenses right now, Nancy, because I just don't know enough information. And this is the thing that the defense attorney has to explore. They're going to have to figure out, was this natural? Was this intentional? Or is this caused by somebody else? And we don't know who that somebody else may be because that person may not be around or the victim, rather, can't speak and tell us who did this if that's the case. Yes, because she's dead. To Alan Langell joining us, Alan, thank you for being with us tonight.

He's the editor at Deadline Detroit. It's an online daily formerly with the Washington Post. Alan, again, thank you for being with us in response to what Randolph Rice said. And please don't hold it against him because very often defense attorneys are between a rock and a hard spot. Okay, their client is charged with murdering the mom. The mom is lying out in a wooded area, densely wooded area, with her stomach cut open. What else can he argue? Tonight, they're looking for the baby if it survived. Could you describe? Could you describe? for Randolph Rice, the location where, oh, my stars, you just had to hit me with that, there's a sonogram. There is Rebecca sonogram for the baby boy, for her little baby boy. She had already picked out the name Richie. Baby Richie, the name was discovered by friends of Rebecca's, Richard Scott Lee was to be his full name. Is he still alive? So, you know, Alan

Langel, if you could explain to Randolph Rice, the location where Rebecca's body was found sliced open, I doubt very seriously that she chose a heavily wooded area to give birth, Cesarean to top it all off. She was found in the Manistee National Forest up in northern Michigan, which is a beautiful area. People go there during the summer months for canoeing, camping, fishing. I mean, it's a beautiful place. It's a rural area. And people from all around the state and from Illinois and Ohio come up there.

and in the winter they're skiing up that way. It's a beautiful forest. I mean, but I mean, the fact is just to punch a little hole into that defense is that if the abortion or if the birth went wrong, why would you leave the body and, you know, abandon the body there? There's no, you would call for help. You would call for emergency, you know, EMS or whatever. Who? Who would call for help

and emergency? Are you talking about the pregnant mother? Wait, hold on. No, no. I'm saying the people if they were... I asked you to describe the location. Sure. Where Rebecca died, where she bled out. Right. Right. I don't even believe I'm having this discussion, but I guess I have to.

Under Randolph-Rice's theory that she voluntarily naturally gave birth or planned to give birth out in this federal forest. Okay, you're talking about how beautiful it is. Could you tell me you were talking about camping and fishing and swimming?

What's the temperature out there right now tonight, Alan Langell? Tonight, it's probably, I mean, up north there, it's probably in the low teens. I mean, right now it's very cold in all of Michigan. And in northern Michigan,

it's usually colder. So it's pretty, pretty frigid weather there. Alan, it's 16 degrees at night where she was found. I mean, what, you know what? Let me go to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, the only other woman joining me tonight on the panel. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, Forensic Psychologists, specializing in cases just like this. She's at Panther Mitigation.com.

She's a prolific author, but one of them, and my favorite, is where law and psychology intersect. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what woman in her right mind would go out in 16 degree temperature and give birth in the dirt, in the forest, alone, then realize she needs a C-section and cut the baby out? This is insane. It is insane. And only if she was actively psychotic, would she even entertain anything like that? But I haven't heard any reports that she suffered from any sort of mental illness like that. Again, we don't have a lot of information, but that's highly, highly unlikely. You know, we were talking earlier with Dave Mack, Joe Scott Morgan, about how one victim had been lured in one of those online chat rooms about giving birth.

And that is where her killers met her. But very often the killer is someone known by the victim. Joscott, I don't know if you recall another similar victim, Marlon Ochoa Lopez, listen. These two killed a pregnant teen and cut the baby out of her womb and took it for themselves. Marlon Ochoa Lopez was part of a Facebook group for pregnant mothers, and they were all kind of like a support group with each other. She became friends with this lady right here. The name is Clarissa Figueroa. They became friends.

They came over for tea one day, so Ochoa Lopez went over to Figueroa's for tea, and that was the last time everyone heard from her. Desiree Figueroa is her daughter on the right, and she helped murder this pregnant teen and cut the baby out of her womb. That is from Herringer Singh on TikTok. Joe Scott, I want you to hear the rest of the facts to Dave Mack. These two invite the pregnant mom over for tea, and she ends up dead. What happened in that scenario? In this particular case, the pretense was they were offering her free baby clothes. And, you know, for many new mothers, that's a big priority.

You've got to have clothing for the children. It does get expensive. And so Marlene was excited at the opportunity to get some free clothing. That's how they got her in there. Back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, knowing what you now know, I want to talk to you about what exactly happened in the case in chief. Tonight, the search is ongoing for her little baby, Richie, if he survived. and I would think that his body would have been found by now

if he had died in the process. Because you explained to me how this happened. How would an amateur Cesarian section take place? And we have reason to believe that Rebecca was alive when the baby, baby Richie, was torn from her uterus. Yeah, hey, that was a really beautiful area in Michigan there. I've actually been there fishing before. One of the most lovely areas in the United States,

but I've got to tell you something, Nancy. You know what I didn't see? A labor and delivery room. I didn't see an area that is prepped in order to facilitate a cesarean. So what are you going to do this with? Well, in order to do this, I doubt that they're going to show up with retractors. They're not going to have scalples.

They're probably not going to have surgical scissors, these sorts of things. So they're going to use tools at hand. hand that they have. We're talking about things like knives that you bring in from home, any kind of other cutting instrument that might be available. And they're going to leave her out there. They're going to take her at that spot perhaps and extricate this baby from her womb. Now, they probably know enough that they're going to have to keep her alive so that the child is going to be viable. And that is a very, very tough passage to go through. Because if you do have medical training to facilitate this, you're not only going to have a dead mom, you're going

to have a dead baby on your hand. If the purpose of this is to take this child and sell it on the market, there's going to be evidence that's left behind also. To go back to this idea that this may have been some kind of natural birth, we all know for those of us that are not in the medical field, that I've been present for the birth of all of my precious children. We do know that if it's a vaginal delivery. You've also got to push out the placenta. You're going to be looking for an umbilical cord, those sorts of things. So you can kind of go back and examine the scene from that perspective to see what is left behind. It's not just what is taken. It's what's left behind. And the trauma, Nancy, that she sustained out there on that filthy, filthy ground in that beautiful

forested area is something that we cannot even begin to calculate. And joining me right now is Dan Murphy, former NYP. Detective Sergeant. He was on the Joint Terrorism Task Force, former Chief Security Officer of U.S. Bancorp, and he is the co-host star of Gold Shields podcast. He's also an author. Dan, you and I, Joe Scott, many people on the panel tonight have cast iron stomachs. We have to, after what we've seen on crime scenes. But I want to brace you for what you're about to hear regarding the victim and the case in chief. There are two victims.

There's Rebecca about to give birth 22 years old and there's her baby, baby Richie. We don't know where he is tonight. Okay, I want you to hear what one of the witnesses says

that has seen the body and brace yourself. I'm going to walk up to him and yes, the animals have ate at her cheeks Her face is all there. The animals... Because it's so cold. And her stomach, there's a baby...

And there's stomach scutted. So the baby's not there? I don't think so. I don't think so. I got this close. I mean, it's her... Her stuff's coming. It's, yeah.

Oh, okay, okay. From Jack's S on TikTok. Dan Murphy. Other than this beautiful girl, she's 22, Dan. About to give birth, just... days away from giving birth.

Out there, in the woods, her stomach gutted open, and these witnesses are describing how there has been, as Joe Scott likes to say, animal activity on her body to top it all off. Animals have gotten to her out in the wilderness that all of our guests are describing He's a beautiful, idealic federal forest. I can't see it that way

after what I know happened to Rebecca there. But the way this girl was brutalized, the one thing I'm learning of note to the brutality that was inflicted on this pregnant mom and B, number one, number two, the baby's gone.

The baby was not there. Somebody took the baby. Dan Murphy, have you ever seen anything like it, including all your years at NYPD? This would have to be up there with the most horrific scenes I've ever seen, if not worse. Having not seen images, but hearing the descriptions is enough. This is the stuff that makes even veteran detectives want to have a drink or five on the way home afterwards because this is so, you want to wash it out of your brain. It's so horrible. This is what, reminds you that human beings are capable of unbelievable, unfathomable acts of violence

against each other. This is one that would stick with whoever was at that scene for the rest of their lives. Dan Murphy, you mentioned this is the kind of case that makes you want to have one or five drinks after work. I remember being so upset, distraught when I would leave the courthouse. Of course, I couldn't let a jury see. I would have to pull my car over. I would go to the parking deck, load up all my stuff. I didn't dare leave at the courtroom, load everything up, get in the car, drive away from the building, away from the parking lot. So no one connected to the case. Then I would pull over and stop the car and just feel sick or cry or just try to just sit there and process what had happened. And that's

how I feel about what happened to Rebecca in this case. And the baby is still missing, Dan. This is, I can totally relate to what you talked about it as your experience. And I know a lot of people can relate to it too. If you have children, if you are a parent, if you care about the sanctity of life, this is shocking to the core, absolutely shocking to the core. And even just reading about this story can give someone experience such as myself chills it's a it's a cold hard reminder of just how brutal people can be to each other and this is this is a depth not reached often in terms of that cruelty i'm going to walk up to him and yes the animals have ate at her cheeks her face is all there the animals it's so cold and her stomach there's and there's

There's not a baby in there. So the baby's not there? I don't think so. I don't think. I got this close. I mean, it's her stuff's coming. It's, yeah. Oh, okay, okay.

From Jack's S on TikTok. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Days before she is expected to give birth, Rebecca is last seen stepping into a dark colored vehicle outside her body. biological mother's home. Questions arise about who is behind the wheel and where they take her. Number one, where is baby Richie? And number two, who did this? What ghoul, what depraved ghoul would take a young mom to be just days away from giving birth out into the wilderness and cut her stomach open. Even saying the words are shocking and believe me, I'm not

numb after all the cases I've investigated, prosecuted, and covered. I'm not numb. But when you look at a case like this, Joe Scott, I'm sure you agree with me, you have to hold it together. You've got to keep it together to get through the probative. In other words, they mean something facts and prove your case. In this case, holding it together until you find the baby. Then you can go home and fall apart. Or as Dan Murphy said, go have one or five drinks. Yeah, I agree with Dan, you have to, from my perspective, you have to follow the science and stay with it. Because if you look around you and you look at what's before you relative to the humanity that indwells that space, it'll drive you to utter madness. But the key here is going to be the science, Nancy.

I think you have to be relying upon that to understand what happened to her. First off, I want to understand what are the kinds of injuries might she have had on her body other than, say, for instance, this horrible incision that she's going to have over her lower abdomen. I want to know if she was tortured in any way. I want to know if she was compelled in any way to wind up in this location. Was she beaten? Was she cut? Was she stabbed?

Was she shot? Was she bludgeoned in any way? I want to try to understand that. And therein is going to rest some of the answers. Nancy, even in the state that she's in, and if memory serves me correctly, We're talking potentially several weeks down the road since she was last seen alive. Did you know even as badly as she may have been decomposed, we will still be able to figure out these wound tracks relative to the hemorrhage that indwells these sites. Because if there is hemorrhage, that's going to give us an indication that she sustained anti-mortem injuries.

And plus, in the throes of having the baby removed, that's called a perimortem injury, there will still be hemorrhage. there and that will tell the tale. I mean, just got Morgan to remove a baby in this manner. Of course, when a proper cesarean is done in the hospital, the cut is, I don't know, four inches, maybe. It's horizontal, way, way low down

on your stomach. I imagine amateurs would do a vertical cut from, say, the bra line down to the pubic hair. Just cut the back, because the stomach open. So if, and I'm guessing, hypothesizing that is the way they did it, if they did make the vertical cut, I'm describing, wouldn't that, wouldn't that sever an artery? I mean, how long would she have been able to live? There's multiple vessels that would be severed.

And not to mention, if you go with this idea that it could have been a vertical incusion, now you're talking about getting into the bowel, okay? just think about that because with cesarean one of the reasons it's done more in a southerly direction anatomically is you avoid that all right and trust me our medical professionals have been doing this for years and years and years and years they understand the nature of the anatomy involved here that's not something that would be done in a clinical environment so if you're at a very rudimentary level a barbaric level that's what you're going to be looking at you're going to talk about a a multitude of vessels in there. You're going to be talking about damaging the bowel, which also has its own blood supply. So, yeah, she would bleed out in this environment. That's really no surprise here. And I think that when all is revealed,

you're going to begin to understand the horror that she endured during this event. And there's really not going to be any words to try to describe it, I think, if and when the scene makes it to trial, If it makes it to trial, you're going to see something presented to a jury or to a judge that is going to shock them to their core. Listen. We just had them take us to whatever the video that they wanted to show us.

And the son or the young boy or the 20-year-old did not want the dad to go up and asked if I could go up and see if it was a mask or if it was really somebody. and it was Rebecca. November 25th, on a trail directly behind the home of Biomombe Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca. Investigators, not releasing the condition of the body or if a newborn has been found. Rebecca was expected to give birth days before her body was located. That from Up North Live.

Let's start at the beginning. Tonight, the search is on for Rebecca's baby boy, Richie. We now know cut out of her stomach. How did this whole thing start? Who is Rebecca? Listen. Child Protective Services called to save Rebecca from her biological mother, Courtney Bartholomew, placed with foster mother Stephanie Park. When parental rights are terminated, Stephanie adopts Rebecca.

Rebecca flourishes in the park home and enjoys grandparents and extended family. Stephanie Park knows Rebecca's her mother is dangerous and tries to protect Rebecca from reconnecting with her. Like many adopted children, Rebecca is curious about her biological mother. And the two, reconnect. So to renowned psychologist, forensic psychologist, Dr. Sherry Swartz, Dr. Sherry, Rebecca, came from an abusive home. But very early on, CPS did the right thing, and removed her, put her in a foster home, and the foster mom adopted her and kept her, gave her a forever home. even though she was extremely happy growing up, she became curious about who's my biomom?

What is that? I don't know that I understand it, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, because Rebecca had everything. She had a loving family, grandparents, cousins, all the love a baby could have, but she had a curiosity about her bio-mom who couldn't give a fig about her, got abused her and then gave her up but yet she was curious to find that bio mom

we all want to know where we came from nancy this is one of the fundamental biological drives to know our roots our ancestry and in a case where a child is given up pretty much at any age or the parent abandoned them disappears it that drive is a bit stronger. The kids want to know, you know, who is this person and why did they give me up? It's natural to think Rebecca maybe thought it had something to do with her. So you want to talk to that person if they're around and find out why. You know, Randolph Rice is joining us, former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney and civil lawyer who founded Rice law. I know that your firm has been involved with adoptions. It seems to happen all the time.

that the child wants to go back and find the bio parents and i think randolph that dr sherry hit it on the head they somehow think my mom gave me up because i feel in the blank i was a bad baby uh she didn't want me they somehow blame themselves have you ever noticed that and there is just an inherent desire to find that bio mom yeah typically the adoptions we handle the kids are very young but certainly as they get older there is that curiosity that they want to find out who their parents are, who their backstory is, where that come from, maybe who are my grandparents? And this is so important because it fulfills that void that they're trying to fill in life, of trying to get that the answers as to who am I?

You know, I find it interesting to you, Dan Murphy, that the adoptive mom has a premonition. She says, your bio mom is trouble. Don't reconnect. Don't do it. it, but yet Rebecca was hell-bent. She wanted to find the biomomom. Have you ever have cases? I have, where witnesses have had some sort of a, I don't know, an emotional or mental warning, a premonition, so to speak. And it's poo-poohed. Nobody pays any attention to it. Nancy, countless times I've dealt with victims of crime who've survived, and I've seen cases of people haven't, where their intuition or their intuition for another person's protection, has kicked in and the radar's been going off and they've ignored it.

And many times I've had victims of crime tell me, you know, from hospital beds, I had a feeling about that guy. I don't know why I let him in the door. I don't know why I did this. I don't know why I did that. But our intuition exists for one reason and that's to protect us. Now, in a case like this, a mother's intuition, even an adopted mother's intuition, is strong. She knows the history and she relayed that to her.

you have to let people find their own way, but this is a case that is not unusual to that extent. People feel that. Parents feel it strongly for those they love. And we can see things sometimes that people themselves can't see. Feeling contractions at 38 weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes to the hospital November 2nd, even though her due date is not until November 18th. An exam reveals she's mothered to run some errands. Rebecca has $2,000 cash she receives as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby. Her cell phone is discovered abandoned along a desolate two-track road. 21 days after her disappearance, the unthinkable happens.

Rebecca's lifeless body is found in the remote depths of Manistee National Forest. Dave Matt, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, there you go. That shoots Randolph Rice's theory that she had a natural birth, shoots it to hell and back, because who's going to go through all that, and their cell phone is not with them. You know, Dave Mack, we've seen that over and over again. I guess you recall Alex Murdoch, right? The high profile lawyer now convicted of murdering his wife, Maggie, and son, Paul.

Remember, Maggie's phone was found not far away from her body was found, and it was proven through his, Alex Murdoch's nav system. Remember that? He was driving away from the murder scene, slow down, let down, let down the passenger side window threw out Maggie's cell phone, let the window up and scratched off. That

was probative where her cell phone was found. Let's see another one. Kelsey Barreth, remember her? Killed by Fianci, with the help of his mistress, the rodeo queen. Her cell phone pined hundreds of miles away where the two

had tried to make it look like she just left town, leaving behind her little girl to fend for herself. So where the cell phone is found, Dave Matt, can sometimes be critical. But needless to say, in this case, Rebecca did not

have her cell phone. It was abandoned, correct? It was. And it was abandoned not far from where her bio mom's house is. And here's the part that really bothers me, Nancy, because the phone was found on the

first day they began the real search for her. And yet her body is found 150 yards from where her phone was, but we don't find it for three weeks. It's in an area that's been searched. I mean, think about it. If you're conducting a search, you find her phone, you're going to look all around. us to Alan Langell joining us, the editor at Deadline Detroit, an online daily. Alan, I wonder if where her body was found is a secondary or even tertiary crime scene. In other words, was she killed somewhere else, then dumped there? Because that's a lot of time to pass without her body being found.

That close to her phone? Although, I will say, having worked on the Chandra Levy case when I was at the Washington Post, her body was found at Rock Creek Park. It wasn't until a year later a guy was taking a walk through the woods with his dog where the body was discovered. I think it's, for some reason, in the forest, it's not hard to, you know, have a body hidden for that long. But, and particularly in the cold where I don't know enough about it to say, but canines

going through the woods or stuff like that, I don't know if it's harder when it's cold out when the scent isn't, the aroma isn't, isn't out there. But I, who knows? It's, it's hard, it's hard to say. I mean, that's a good question, Alan Langel. When were canines brought out? Right. That, yeah, that is a good question. I mean, you would think that's that standard procedure. I usually there's a search team, a lot of times it's part of the community, part of the police, but I, I can tell you, in the Chandra Levy case, they sent out dozens and dozens of, police officers and cadets looking for the body and they did not find it. Could it have been moved? It's very possible. And I think that was one of the thoughts maybe with Chandra Levy that

maybe she was killed somewhere else and then her body was dumped there. I guess we don't know at this point. I mean, it's interesting the theories by police, they seem to have some pretty specific theories as to what happened in the scenario. So it makes me think somebody's cooperating, somebody, whether it's the actual people involved or somebody else who's been cooperating in this. We don't know when canines were brought out to the scene, but they did not hit on Rebecca's body,

which is leading to a lot of speculation. She was killed in one place, the dog searched, and then her body was dumped. Then we begin hearing stories about Rebecca, heavily pregnant. Getting into a black vehicle with tinted windows at midnight. Now, remember, the last time she was seen, she's with her bio-mom running errands, and she's got $2,000 with her. It's a family gift to prepare for the baby.

Now, listen to this. Rebecca's fiancé, Richard Lee Follore, is trying to get in touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying to text. Knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother, Thelor calls him Bartholomew, who says, Rebecca got into a black-colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight and left. Fulor reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford County Sheriff's Office. Dave Mack, I'm understanding that the fiancé got that information from Rebecca's biomomomom

who was the last one known to be with her. Exactly. He knew that Rebecca had been with her biomom shopping earlier that day when he couldn't get her. He called Bartholomew who told him the story about the getting in a car, a dark vehicle. But isn't it true, Dave Mack, the Biomom, has an alibi of sorts. Listen, she gave me my meds at about 8.40. I don't remember a lot, as I just said, but she was there when I went to bed and she was also there when I woke up that the next day. I know that she never goes out on a belt when I'm sleeping just because she doesn't like to drive at night. Wait a minute. Randolph Rice, that's no alibi.

The son of the biomomom says he took meds at 840 and didn't see his mom again until the next morning. That's no alibi for the night Rebecca died. You're exactly right, Nancy. It's no alibi, but at least establishes somewhere around an 840 that she's accountable and sometime the next morning she's accountable. The question is going to become, where was she between 8.40 p.m. and that next morning. Out of the blue, a surprise twist. Listen to Joanna Carey, the Wexford County prosecutor. This is a case of premeditated torture and murder. These two individuals created a plan, conducted research.

Ms. Bartholomew brought Rebecca to their home. They forced her into another vehicle and took her into the woods, where they stabbed her, forced her to lie on the ground while they cut her baby out, and ultimately caused her death. There's been a lot of speculation about potential motive. Of course, the state never has to prove motive in a case like this or any case. But to Dave Matt, crime stories investigative reporter, apparently prosecutors are speculating about a motive. What is it?

It is that the Bartholomews, Bradley, that they had failed at conceiving a child, that she had had multiple miscarriages and that she still wanted to have a baby. We're talking about Courtney Bartholomew. here and that they had not been able to do that. You know, you really can't make that up. But believe it or not, there have been other cases similar to this with the same motive. And I'm referring specifically to the case of Bobby J. Stinnett. The woman behind me is one of the most hated people in Missouri. This is Lisa Montgomery. And in 2021, she was actually the first woman to be executed by the U.S. government in nearly 70 years because she did something horrifically depraved. In 2004, Lisa drove to Missouri to meet Bobby Joe Stinnett,

who was 38 weeks pregnant at the time. That is from Ray Review on TikTok, and she's right. Lisa Montgomery cut the baby out of the victim, Bobby Joe Stennett, who was eight months pregnant, took the baby, and the baby lived. The baby girl is now a teenager living with her father. Alan Langell, joining us from Deadline, Detroit, Alan, these two are under arrest right now. Do you believe that there are any other parties involved in the murder of Rebecca? And you have reason to believe that the baby is no longer alive. Explain. Well, I think the Attorney General Dana Nessal here in Michigan has put out a press release she's working with the county prosecutor and she's put out press release saying that not only the mother is dead but the baby is dead they seem to have a scenario of what happened what transpired which tells me somebody is cooperating and helping laying out because there's no I doubt there's any video there in the national force there somebody has sort of laid out a scenario where they're able to the press charges

and say what happened. So does somebody else know about it? There's a very good possibility that somebody else has been cooperating to sort of lay out this scenario. You know, it's amazing to me that other people could stand by knowing this happened

or was going to happen and did nothing to Joseph Scott Morgan. The baby, baby Ritchie has not been found. Ellie thinks the baby is dead Is there any way Now we saw in the Montgomery case the baby did live Is there a way the baby lived Yeah there's a possibility the baby lived

We just don't know how long But here's the thing Nancy I think that all we have to do is go back to what The state prosecutor is saying here Because they're kind of definitively saying That this Neither two And we know the mom, all right, is deceased,

but both of them are not alive. So where is she coming up with that information? I'm wondering if there was a witness to this event or if somebody had actually that was involved in this had stated it to somebody else, maybe in their immediate circle, maybe somebody within the family, you know, because they're banging on about,

well, we tried and we haven't had a baby. And you know, this is something we really wanted. Well, if they're banging on about that, maybe they're saying, well, we tried again. Oh, yeah, we tried to butcher my biological daughter and extract the baby from her. And so that didn't work either. Did they make that statement to somebody? The question is, the question is, is where is this child? And also, how long, if any, anytime did this child survive outside of the womb?

And what's the status of the baby right now? If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of Rebecca or anything about her missing baby, please call Wexford Sheriffs 231-779-9216. The investigation is ongoing. And now we remember an American hero, Corporal James Chapman, Johnston, PD, South Carolina, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife and four children

to be raised without their father. American hero corporal James Chapman. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. Guaranteed human.