Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Desperate search for Wichita 5-year-old boy Lucas

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

Emily Glass tells police she awoke from a nap and realized her 5-year-old stepson was missing from their Wichita, Kansas, home, but the 26-year-old woman waited hours before calling 911 for help. Nancy Grace takes up the case of missing Lucas Hernandez in this episode. She is joined by California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carole Lieberman, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter Chuck Roberts. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. A new lead has investigators going through Chisholm Creek Park in northeast Wichita, several miles north of his home where he was last seen. He was supposed to be sitting in his room. Conrad took a shower and when she checked on him, he was no longer there. His coat and shoes are still on scene and he's never wandered off before. Hernandez was last seen around 3 p.m. on Saturday. He was reported missing three hours later. Wichita police searched the area around his home, even going door to door searching homes. Currently, Wichita Police Department detectives continue to speak with family and follow up with any leads. We're in shock. He's a sweet little boy

and we're just concerned for his safety. We don't know where he is. We want him home safely. Please help us. A little boy just five years old. Can you remember your children when they were just five years old? I can. A little boy just five is missing. He disappeared from his home. While his stepmother was taking a nap. Lucas, age five, reported missing. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want you to take a listen to Lucas's birthday celebration. Happy birthday, dear Lucas. Happy birthday to you. Blow out your candle. Good job bud. You're five years old. Tomorrow. But from that happy moment we land here now today. What can we do to solve the mystery of missing five-year-old Lucas. Lucas goes to play, says a stepmother, as she took a

nap. The hunt for the missing five-year-old has turned desperate. Lucas reported missing from his home in Wichita, Kansas by his 26-year-old stepmother. The stepmother says she last saw the sweet little boy around 3 p.m. She took a shower and fell asleep. She wakes up three hours later. Lucas gone. The back door open. Lucas lived with his dad and the stepmother in the dad's home. He's enrolled at Beach Elementary School.

I'm looking at the home right now. It looks to be a two or three bedroom home, neatly kept there on a corner. Police quickly jump into action using canines to search the home, the surrounding neighborhood, a nearby park. But every clue has left the police empty-handed please don't let this case go cold imagine if they weren't safely tucked into bed right now if they were not at soccer or gymnastics or cheer, or cheerleading, or piano. What if your child was missing right now? How insane would you be? What, would you just run up and down the street screaming like an animal?

Help me, where is my child? What would you do? Help me, help them. First to you, Chuckberts crime stories investigative reporter first let's start at the beginning that's where every investigation starts we've got to establish a timeline and the circumstances surrounding lucas's disappearance start well at the 26 year old stepmom and she refers to herself by the way as a live-in girlfriend, not the stepmom. But she's home alone.

Her father is away on business. He's a 33-year-old contractor. And she last sees Lucas, a 5-year-old child, a real sweet little kid with a speech impediment, in his room around 3 o'clock Saturday afternoon. She goes to take a shower and lays down, and when she wakes up, no Lucas. She waits maybe two or three hours and calls police, and they have had a search in three area parks ever since with canines and mounted horses and even drones, but there's no sign of him. And she tells police that he's never wandered off before. Hold on, she waited three hours? During the three hours, I assume the stepmom was looking for the little boy.

And, of course, that's the first thing you do. You look. You look. You look through the house. Then you go, hey, is he playing? You look under the beds. You look behind all the doors. Then you go outside. Did he go outside? You look in the house. Then you go, hey, is he playing? You look under the beds. You look behind all the doors. Then you go outside.

Did he go outside? You look in the cars. You look in the trunk. Did he somehow get in the trunk? You look around the swing set. Then he's not there. Maybe you look back in the house again. Is he playing a trick?

Then you start looking further and further out, out through the neighborhood. You go to the playground. Where else could he be? Three hours later, she calls police. Now, what was the last thing you were saying chuck roberts well she told tells police that the little boy has never wandered off before and that his coat and shoes are still in the house so apparently he's barefoot his shoes are still in the house. So she's frantic. And it's new. And shoes in the house. It's apparently cold outside. Do we know the temp there?

I mean, how cold was it that it struck her that his coat was in the home? But you can't count on a five-year-old child to put on their coat because you know how much I had to struggle and argue with Lucy, my little girl, to put on a coat or a sweater. It was a knock down, drag out. Once or twice I would say, okay, fine, go out without a coat. And then the whole time I felt horrible. This only happened twice. And then I told Lucy that somebody was going to report me to DFACS, Department of Family and Children's Services, if she went out without a coat again. And as a matter of fact, just so you know, Chuck, that night I called the house phone from my cell phone, and I answered and pretended it was defects calling about her being spotted out at Target without a coat can I tell you she's never done it again in

fact she's now gotten obsessively attached to a fleece and she stuffed the pockets full of like ten things a chapstick she wears the fleece everywhere but I'm getting off topic. Jackie, what was the temperature quickly? Oh, my stars. Right now it's 29 degrees. So now I get it. Oh, and snowing. No wonder she thought she realized, of course. I mean, to Joseph Scott Morgan, it's 29 degrees right now. It's snowing there. So of course she noticed that the coat wasn't there. What would happen if he's out wandering around without a coat in that temperature? You know, Nancy, at those temperatures, 29 degrees Fahrenheit with snow, as we're looking at right

now, we're talking about hypothermia where it's unsustainable. That's why this is so critical. And what I mean by unsustainable is it would not take very long for a tiny little child like this to succumb to the elements. If there's snow on the ground in particular, and I don't know what the status in Wichita has been for the past several days, that adds another layer to this. He's barefooted. We're talking about things not just hypmia, but also frostbite. So it is critical that they find this child as soon as possible. I'm just hoping that someone has wrapped him up. He's in a safe, secure place at this point. Well, I've got so many questions and I don't want to put the car before the horse.

Let me, in my assumptions, let me get the rest of the facts as we know them now. With me, Chuck Roberts, crime stories investigative reporter. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Dr. Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist and veteran trial lawyer. Wendy Patrick joining us out of California. I want to get back to the facts and then we can try to joining us out of California. I want to get back to the facts, and then we can try to make some kind of analysis, take a listen to what police say when they realize 5-year-old Lucas is gone.

It is with a heavy heart I'm here with you today. Still missing is 5-year-old Lucas Fernandez. Lucas was last seen wearing black sweats, white socks, and a gray shirt with a bear on it. Our thoughts and prayers remain with Lucas and Lucas' family as we are diligently investigating the situation. On Friday, February 17th at approximately 6.15, officers were dispatched to a lost juvenile call at a residence in the 600 block of South Edgemoor. When they arrived, they made contact with a 26-year-old female who is the stepmother

of Lucas. She reported to officers that she last saw Lucas in his bedroom at approximately 3 p.m. prior to her showering and falling asleep. Officers and K-9 units have diligently checked the home and the neighborhood with no luck of locating Lucas at this time. Currently, Wichita Police Department detectives continue to speak with family and follow up with any leads regarding this unfortunate situation. Additionally, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sent in resources as well as their Child

Abduction Rapid Deployment Team, their CARD Team, known as the CARD Team, to assist us with this investigation. Also, the Emergency Operations Command Center has been activated. So we are asking the community which has any information regarding this case to please call tips in to 316-383-4661. And there will be individuals at our Emergency Operation Command Center to answer those tips. Photographs of Lucas are posted on the WPD Facebook and

Twitter pages. I know many of the community have shown willingness to come and take part in a search party and we do appreciate the willingness of the citizens to come and help us in this investigation. However, at this point we're asking citizens to share the information on their social media pages and call the tip line with any information. We do currently have investigators and officers that are continuing to search the area for Lucas. Police reaching out to the community and across the airwaves to us and now to you that tip line three one six three eight three four six six one three one six three eight three four six six one

as the minutes tick the outcome gets worse we know when a child is taken after the first 72 hours, they're most likely have been killed. We don't know that. We do not know that about Lucas and hope goes on. I'm curious as to why an Amber alert was not issued immediately, but police respond by saying they don't have any evidence that he was kidnapped. Okay Joe Scott, Carol Lieberman, Wendy Patrick, Chuck Roberts back to you Chuck. So police start a search. Tell me about the search. Where have they searched Chuck Roberts? They've searched three city parks. One is a huge park not far from an apartment complex where the couple lived as recently as last spring. And then they fanned out to other parks and they used horse patrols and canines and foot patrols. They have asked that there be not any organized civilian searches. They only want tips on the

phone. They don't want people out wandering around and perhaps, you know, destroying, I guess, important evidence evidence but no signs so far it's been several days and as you say as you say the weather is clearly deteriorating then uh as of course it does in every investigation the finger pointing starts and as it should when you're looking for answers nothing and nobody is beyond suspicion or reproach in a case when a child is missing and their life is on the line. Lucas goes missing from his family home in the 800 block South Edgemore, Wichita, Kansas. As you know, in that area, there are great swaths of rural terrain. Lucas last seen 3 p.m. in his own bedroom.

He's only five. He's only five. And I can remember at five, my children being snaggletoothed and beautiful and just watching them fall asleep at night and swearing to my Holy Father that they look like angels. He's four feet tall, 60 pounds with brown hair and brown eyes. Weigh in, Joe Scott.

Nancy, I've got to tell you, for me as an investigator, one of the things that I would want to do is the first thing I'm going to start with is his home. I'm going to rip that thing to pieces. And as horrible as this sounds, I would have to begin to explore this area that they lived in relative to any kind of predators that might live in this area. And the police are going to have their finger on the pulse of this. And I'm going to get some answers from these individuals, no matter what it takes. Because right now, this is not necessarily an evidentiary search. This is a life-saving search at this point. I'm going to use every resource, like Chuck was talking about just a moment ago

at my disposal, and I have no doubt that the Wichita police are. And we're going to expand this search out and just drag a net, as you will, through this area to try to overturn anything or flip over any rocks that we can to find any piece of evidence that's going to lead to Lucas's discovery. Back to you, Chuck Roberts. I just don't know how anyone could harm a little boy like this. I'm looking at his flyer now. He's last seen wearing a gray shirt with a bear on it, black sweats, and white socks.

To Chuck Roberts, Joe Scott Morgan just brought up the theory, as he should, of potential registered sex offenders in that area. You know, there are maps that tell you the number of registered sex offenders in an area. It's very easy to do. You simply put in your zip code. Do we know the number of registered sex offenders in that area? I'm looking at it right now, the info that you sent me. It's 1,171, Chuck.

Is that the number that you got? 1,171 registered sex offenders in Wichita. Is that the number you got, Chuck? It is, and the ratio of residents to sex offenders in the city is 333 to 1. 1171 sex offenders in Wichita. I'm just trying to take that number in very quickly. Attention, as it always does to Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor, attention always turns to the family, the last person with the child. All right. The father's out of town. He travels for business. So the attention turns to the stepmother who's in the home.

That's not unusual, Wendy. No, it's not. I'll tell you what is a bit unusual here, though, Nancy, as I've been listening to the reporting, is the fact that there was a two to three hour delay between the time she noticed the little boy missing and the time she alerted authorities. And you've mentioned the places that you would look. You'd look under the bed and the car and all of the rooms. But if this is a little boy who doesn't make a practice of wandering off, particularly not in that type of temperature outside, it does make it more suspicious. Nancy, you would have waited two to three minutes, as I think would have some of the other some of your listeners. Two to three hours is something that's going to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb because we live in a day and age where no one

disappears without a trace. There's forensic evidence. There's eyewitness evidence. There's something to indicate foul play. So and it's unfair sometimes that that this scrutiny focuses on the immediate family first. But if there's no signs of forced entry, we're going to have to let that play out before we turn our attention to who else may have lived in the area who could have done it. Well, statistically, and you know this as well, Joseph Scott Morgan, that when people are killed, when people go missing, when people are harmed, it's typically by someone they know. That's simple statistics. Statistics are not allowed in court but that's a rule of thumb cops go by so naturally they start within the family

now here's something I agree with every single thing Wendy Patrick just said and I want to tell a story Joe Scott that you've heard a million times okay so what Wendy said was you would have called 9-1-1 I would have called 9-1-1 immediately as I'm searching outdoors as I'm searching under the beds after my first look around the house in the yard yes I will call 9-1-1 as I'm doing all that because now think about it guys there's a six hour lead if somebody has that child she slept for three hours and she waited two to three hours to call 9-1-1 that's six hours at the least what about the shower at that end you might be looking at seven hours this woman entrusted with that child

the father leaves the child with the stepmom all right seven hours yeah i'm mad yeah my voice is raised seven hours go by and you don't know where the child is here's the story remember it like it was yesterday I got shamed at the community swimming pool by some mom who made her own organic suntan lotion for her children so I go to babies or with the children. I'm alone with them. And the shelves there go really from the floor all the way practically to the ceiling, it feels like. So I'm looking through the suntan lotion. I can't find anything like that. I'm certainly not going to make my own. And I'm bent down. And I'm actually, I think I was down on my knees, like on the very bottom shelf.

The twins were playing right behind me. I dig through everything, intent to do the right thing. Finally, I don't find it. I stand up. I look again. I turn around, and there's Lucy. No John David. They were just to the point they could really walk, and it started to run.

I flipped out. I had practiced carrying them both under my arms like footballs. I picked Lucy up and started running, screaming at the top of my lungs to put the place in lockdown, lock the doors. My son, my child, my baby was gone, screaming, crying. It was like a blur. I ran in my haste and my insanity, ran past him. He was all the way at the end of like three aisles down on the floor looking at something. And then, you you know I started running back and forth looking both ways down the aisles until I saw him I remember that moment now the investigation into the disappearance of Lucas has taken a sudden and abrupt and nefarious turn. I want to very briefly thank my sponsors

who are making our investigation into the disappearance of little Lucas possible. It is LegalZoom. And LegalZoom, I really can't thank you enough for being our partner here on Sirius XM 132. LegalZoom's National Small Business Month could not come at a better time because 2018 presents incredible opportunities because there are new tax laws, including the biggest changes for business owners in the last 30 years. What does it mean to you? LegalZoom helps you understand that. LegalZoom, not a law firm.

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LegalZoom.com, helping business owners across the country and being our sponsor, I'm proud to say here on SiriusXM 132. LegalZoom. Thank you. I want you to hear now the turn, the search for Lucas is taken. Let's just start with Lucas's great aunt. It's nuts. And because I was a CPS investigator myself, you know, I just feel helpless. She was sent photos of Lucas last year and saw multiple bruises on his face and neck. So she says she called protective services. All these stories feel helpless. She was se last year and saw multiple and neck. So she says she services. All these stori for months about him poss

only got more concerned a son came to new Mexico fo she and another relative that the child was hurt. was filed in that state a and had a forensic interv all that kind of stuff. And since I guess the police didn't think there was enough evidence, when I first found out he was missing, I was suspicious and then worried.

To renowned forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carol Lieberman. This is just adding insult to injury. It's just making my heart break. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan saved me a few moments ago when I broke down in tears about this four foot 60 pound little boy with the big brown eyes and the snaggled smile, missing. And now I hear this from the great aunt, Carol Lieberman. Why didn't anybody act? Yes, that's a good question. DCFS has a tendency to leave kids in homes where they are going to continue to be abused and to take kids from homes where they shouldn't have been taken. And that's my experience.

But, you know, the fact that this great aunt saw bruises and reported him and so on, the answer to this, to his being missing, I think is to be found in that home, not necessarily someone who abducted him. And I think the stepmother who wants to be called a live-in girlfriend is the first stop for suspicion. Because, you know, look at that. She wants to be called a live-in girlfriend. She wants to, you know, take herself away from the idea of being a mother, a stepmother. You know, that in itself makes one think, well, did she not want this child to be in the house?

Did she just want to be alone with the father? To Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, you take a woman in her early 20s and put her in the role of stepmother. She steadfastly, as Dr. Carol Lieberman aptly, correctly points out, wants to be referred to as the living girlfriend that that signals to me as well I hadn't thought about it till Carol said it a lot just that and I'm not a stepmother I'm the living girlfriend well right there it to me that's a clue everything is a clue Wendy every tidbit every word every the shoes, the coat, the bruises, the this, it all gives me a picture.

It gives me an answer to some degree. You stick a young girl in her early 20s as a stepmother, it sounds like, did she not want to be the stepmother? I don't know. But she's rejecting even the title of stepmother. And who would leave the child unattended for seven hours? You can't do that with a child. Yeah, you know, Dr. Lieberman brought up an excellent point. The fact that this young mother-to-be, if she ever got married, would be the stepmother,

but now she just wants to be called the live-in girlfriend. This is huge. If you don't take on the responsibilities, the enormous, awesome responsibilities of being a step-parent, you really wouldn't be investing the kind of care you should. The first thing I thought of was, did somebody come over? Did somebody come over and take the child so quickly that there wasn't even the time to find the shoes? And did this live-in girlfriend know about it? That is an excellent piece of evidence that you know would come up if this case ever went to trial in terms of not only the type of care and supervision that was going on in that home, but whether or not there was any friend that stopped by, another man that stopped by. We could speculate.

We don't have any evidence right now to back up any of those theories but you're right to say that those clues start they were right in the home as to who came and went and that's an excellent point is you got to look at the dynamics between how was this mother approaching her task of even watching that child we know the mother the biological mother had last visited about two months ago. I don't know if she lives out of state or what her position is, but I know she saw him a couple of months ago, and this is what the mother, which makes it all the more heartbreaking.

You know, the parents are split. She lives somewhere else, and now she finds out her baby's missing, and she hasn't been able to see him for two months. And you think about all that time you've lost. She says, quote, find my son. He's terrified of water, so the fact the search has moved to a park that's surrounded by water terrifies me Lucas is a sweet sweet boy please find my son the FBI has deployed his child action rapid deployment team to help in the search which top he deactivated its emergency operation command center quote by the dad,

Lucas is the sweetest, kindest, smartest, most gentle little boy. He loves school. He loves fishing, riding his bicycle, playing with his siblings. It makes me so proud to say I'm his father, and we love him so much. He's a wonderful, helpful big brother. He's never been the type to run off without asking permission. He must be terrified being away from his family with no way of finding us.

We are pleading. Can you imagine what the parents are going through, the mother and the father. Take a listen to the most recent presser from the police. We'd like to provide you an update on the missing child case of old five-year-old Lucas Fernandez. This case is now considered a criminal investigation. Investigators have arrested a 26-year-old female on two counts of child endangerment. Charges are related to new information gathered during this investigation. Officers and investigators have been working on this case nonstop since 615 Saturday evening. We have collected information through countless interviews,

follow ups on leads, and examining evidence. This evidence, I'm sorry, this incident has touched many in our community. I know that there are many more questions as a result of this. However, this continues to be a criminal investigation and we cannot go into further details. The search for Lucas is ongoing and we are still asking the public for assistance. We continue to provide every resource that we have available to find Lucas. This is our priority. If you have any information on his whereabouts, please call this tip line. My number is 316-383-4661. As a result of this investigation, too, we would also like to thank those other agencies that have been assisting us over the past few days.

Those are the FBI, KBI, the District Attorney's Office, and the County Sheriff's Office. So I'll let that at this point. The 26-year-old, is that the stepmother? That is the stepmother. Emily Glass. It is 26 year old female. The endangering the child. Would that be endangering Lucas? That there are two separate children? Two separate counts, correct. Would one of the two be Lucas? One of those children is Lucas, yes. Do we know where the other child is? It is involving one of her child.

Is that her daughter? I would go into that. Do you consider at this point that his disappearance is likely going to be a homicide? At this point in time, we hope not. We hope that we are able to find Lucas and that he is alive and well. Where are you guys searching now? This investigation will continue on as far as specific locations. There's various locations that we'll look at. I won't name any specific locations. Can you elaborate on the nature of endangering the child?

Like was it leaving the child alone or the nature of it? I won't get into the investigation charges. When was she arrested? She was arrested about 7. Do you have one more question? What information, I guess when did you guys get that information that turned this into a criminal investigation? This has been a result of, as I mentioned, we started at 615 on this 3 days ago, four days ago. And so as a result of all the interviews and throughout the investigation and stuff and talking with people, evidence that was collected and things,

that's when we turned it into a different investigation as well. Have you guys been able to verify her account of what happened in terms of her being the last person to see him? Again, that's all part of the investigation. I don't want to get into details of it, okay? And so I won't discuss that part of it. It is possible there could be more charges. There is possibility of more charges, correct.

Lucas's stepmother, the Kansas boy missing, has been arrested on two counts of child endangerment, according to Wichita PD. Child endangerment, in other words, leaving the child unsupervised. Emily Glass, in her 20s, was arrested as police continue their search for Lucas, who she says was last seen in his own bedroom. Police say the charges faced by glass are related to information they gathered during their investigation which simply means not watching your child and they get lost. A hundred police officers searched the home, the neighborhood, and a 216-area Chisholm Creek Park. They have uncovered nothing to suggest Lucas was abducted.

As you know, Lucas's great-aunt, Sally Rasmussen, tells ABC she reported possible child abuse to Kansas Protective Services in May after seeing Lucas with apparently marks on his arms and cheeks. Why wasn't he protected? You know, that's a question. Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor of forensics you have testified in so many cases where children have been molested or abused do you know in all the cases I ever prosecuted where the perp was a family member relative or relative I've never once seen the spouse side with the child never why why is

that I mean I haven't shot target practice since I had to be licensed as a district attorney assistant district attorney but you know I would be sorely tempted sorely tempted if anybody anybody including relatives spouse who ever hurt my children I don't I don't understand I mean how can there be bruises all over the child, defects is called, and nobody in the family acts? Yeah, I'm amazed by it, Nancy. The idea that no one acts upon this information, they're obviously witnessing these things.

I think that it goes to this idea that you've brought this total stranger into your little family. And if you admit anything here, you're admitting that you brought the devil himself into this environment for your own purposes, whatever it is. I've never been, based upon what I've seen working, you know, with a coroner in New Orleans and the medical examiner in Atlanta over all these years and all these cases I've looked at, I've never been a big fan of the so-called boyfriend and or girlfriend living in the house in the family milieu. I think that it's a dangerous concoction because it goes a lot to what you guys were saying.

She did not want to be referred to, in this particular case, as a step-mommy. This whole live-in-girlfriend idea is just absolutely absurd. And now my thoughts go to Lucas, Nancy, this poor little child who has a disability already. He's got trouble with his speaking, this sort of thing. He's heavily dependent.

His biological mommy is not around. She hasn't seen him, Nancy, in two months, man. And here he is. The back door is open. It's freezing cold outside. There's snow on the ground. And this child has no one, no one that is fighting for him. And I hope that, you know, anything that we can do to push this out there and just push this idea that he's out there alone.

I hope that I do, in my heart of hearts, hope that he is recovered. But I've got to tell you, Nancy, based upon cases I've seen like this, it's just, yeah, it's sickening. It's absolutely sickening and heartbreaking. So many of us want children to love. Do we not? We want children that we can take care of. And just to see these broken and battered little children like this just makes me ill. Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories investigative reporter.

The little boy spoke to the aunt and described being dragged, according to the aunt, being dragged across the floor by the stepmother. Is that true? That is true. That's what she said that he told her and that his stepmom was awful mean to me was his exact words. And there have been at least two reports to Child Protective Services in the Kansas area. Obviously, they opened their file, but it's privileged information and nothing can be released from that state agency to shed light on you know what happened actually happened but they also provided pictures

of the bruises on his buttocks and his arm and you can see them plainly they don't look very old actually and they look fairly recent if they knew Wendy Patrick California prosecutor if defects knew if the aunt knew, what the father didn't know? Yeah, that's a question, Nancy, that comes up in these cases. You know, I like what Joseph Scott Morgan said about, boy, that is the worst case scenario when you just have a live-in girlfriend caring for someone else's child who's not only just five, but five with developmental challenges. Now, let's add to all of that, Nancy, what you just asked, when there's also evidence of bruising and potential abuse. It's one of those cases where the reports were made. Thank God we're not looking in retrospect and saying, why didn't anybody report it?

But does that reporting then led credence to the charges that have been filed about, well, now we're going to think that this is probably something that was the fault of the live-in girlfriend as opposed to outside forces? I got to tell you, that door being open in those conditions, that is going to be a huge clue one way or another. Did he wander off looking for his mother because the girlfriend was being, quote, to me in her own word in his own words again or is it a more nefarious explanation and if the latter why aren't there any forensic signs of anybody else being there that is what makes the biggest mystery out of this case is so far the total lack of forensic clues well chuck roberts there were two incidents. First, the aunt sees bruising on the child's arm and cheek in a photo. And she reports it. Then the father brings the child to visit in New Mexico, and she sees it again.

That's two times. Chuck, do I have this bass backwards, or is this correct? No, that's right. There were two separate charges. The most recent filed last spring. And don't forget that the biological mother and Emily Glass, the stepmother, got into a fist fight last December, and police were called to Beach Elementary. Oh, my stars, that's the boys' school.

Yes, exactly. So they get into a fist fight at the school. Now, I can't say that I would not be above a fist fight if it came to my children. Okay, I'm just like that. Okay, just enough crazy to punch you right in the mouth if you mess with my child. Okay, now let's get back to the fist fight. Not judging. What happened?

Do we know what happened? I know it's at a school, and it's between the girlfriend and the mother, the bio mom. Do we know any more? Well, apparently the bio mom, whose name is Jamie Orr, went to school to check on Lucas and found out that he had not been picked up as he was supposed to. And finally, belatedly, the stepmom, Emily Glass, does show show up and they get into an argument and blows are exchanged and police are called but no charges were ever filed. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Hold on.

Jackie's in here mouthing something to me. Hold on. I missed what, what did you, okay. So the mom goes to the school, Jackie, just turn around in your swivel chair. Let me hear this. I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. Something about the stepmom. Okay, so the mother, the bio mom, comes to Beach Elementary to check on the child.

Okay, what happened? Well, she notices that the stepmother, Emily Glass, has not picked up Lucas and was supposed to. And the boy is just there uh doesn't know what happened uh and finally uh the stepmom shows up and the two the biological mother and excuse me the stepmom get into blows and police are called but eventually no charges are filed hold on chuck roberts the brawl the fist fight the hair fight that goes down at beach elementary between the bio mom and the girlfriend. That's not all we know about the self-proclaimed live-in girlfriend. Hold on a moment.

Happy birthday, dear Lucas. Happy birthday to you. Go out your candle. Good job, bud. You're five years old. Tomorrow. your candle good job but you're five years old tomorrow just so you know that is the biological mother singing happy birthday to little lucas on his last birthday um back to chuck roberts you were telling about the hair fight as i call it when two women get in a fight pulling each other's hair and scratching and all that.

This was an outright fist fight. They were not playing over the stepmom not picking the child up on time. You know, Joe Scott, I keep going back to you because you know my children. They expect me to be the first one in line at pickup. That's what they think is normal. I like to get over there early if I can, and then I let the windows up and I work in the car, and then they come out.

Well, if I'm not first, if I'm 10 minutes into the pickup, which can last an hour and a half for all those cars come ten minutes into it they get the car just look at me accusingly and my sister-in-law Jan married my brother Mac they she would go pick up her look Sam at a certain time every day from Mama Mullins. Okay, Mama Mullins took care of the children while Jan, my sister-in-law's school teacher. Well, Jan would always be first. Well, one day she was last. No, no, I don't even think she was last.

There were a couple little boys left. Anyway, she wasn't first. Sam, he was like four, would not speak to her the entire way home was you know a long drive and when she look at him he'd look out the window he wouldn't say anything he just look out the window they take it very seriously if it doesn't go you know let me throw this to you, Dr. Carol. Dr. Carol Lieberman with me, forensic psychiatrist, author of a brand-new book, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh, my.

Yes, that's it. Lions and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh, my. On Amazon. Dr. Carol, they get in a routine, and if that routine is thrown off, that messes horribly with a child's head if they get off their routine why is that well it's the routine but also it's because in those seconds or minutes or you know however long it is that they're waiting they get

really scared that maybe mommy or daddy isn't going to be picking me up today maybe something happened to them they feel abandoned and so when they get angry you know they react by getting angry it really has to do with their fear I mean you know also of course they want to think that they're the most important thing in every parent's life but it really has to do with a reaction to the fear that they felt in the time that they were standing there scared you know another issue is even an abusive parent or step parent or living girlfriend, even abusive, they still think they love the parent because that's that person, because that's all that they know. It's like an animal being mistreated, but they still respond when the master calls.

It's just it's a bizarre scenario, but children don't know any better. You know, what Jackie is waving her arms at, Chuck Roberts, she apparently didn't like my stories, my personal stories. She, for some reason, wants me to get back on track. Chuck Roberts, Crime Stories investigative reporter, you were going to tell me about another incident. Was it regarding the girlfriend, excuse me, the live- yes the 26 year old arrested in late 2014 misdemeanor brawling and fighting that charge was dismissed but then the couple Jonathan

Hernandez and Ellen glass the the custodial caregivers of Lucas, get into a fight in April 2016 at the Wichita apartment they shared, and they were both arrested. She allegedly held a wooden axe handle. There was blood on the handle. But the officers couldn't determine who the primary aggressor was, so they dropped the charge against him but they did hold her to account for it and she was arrested and charged again just got Wendy Patrick to you Wendy Patrick California prosecutor veteran prosecutor I know defense

attorneys will go berserk but when you don't know a horse look at his track record that's already two incidents documented by police well now i guess let's say uh three because there's the the incident with the father there's the incident that she had a previous arrest then there's the incident with the bio mom to just add to the humiliation of the child at the school for Pete's sake. That's three, three incidents. And the child has popped up with two incidents of bruising that we know of. And defects, of course, did nothing. I don't know why we pay those people.

But Wendy Patrick, that's a track record right there. Yeah, Nancy, the tricky thing with a track record like that is the prior instances of abuse have a far more likely chance of coming into evidence than the prior arrests of the suspected perpetrator. You and I have both just fought tooth and nail to make admissible prior bad acts, whether it's an arrest, whether it's a conviction. Judges often bend over backwards, even to sanitize what a suspect has done in the past in order to make sure the jurors only judge the case in light of the facts that have to do with the current incident. So the key here will be to make those prior incidents relevant to the charges that are being brought. It's an uphill battle battle it's one we always hope that we can fight and win but it's not a given that the jurors will hear anything close to what the court of public opinion is going to learn about this case i haven't even gotten that far in my head wendy

patrick i'm still hoping against hope that there's a chance lucas can be brought home alive. That's what I'm hoping. I'm worried. I'm afraid because of the weather. The weather is horrible. Even right now, it's 29 degrees and snowing there. So bottom line, unless he's with someone, Joe Scott Morgan, he's perishing in the elements. We were talking about the pattern that had developed over the past and how things are inadmissible. Right now, what I'm worried about is this child, this baby, because he is a baby.

He's five years old, Nancy. And if you want to talk about patterns, we have a pattern involving this child of neglect. He's been struck. He's been witnessed to violence. And for me as an investigator and even bigger, you know, as a daddy, it's terrifying to me because I want to know where Lucas is. I want to know, I'm holding out hope and sending up prayers that he is in fact intact out there somewhere, still among the living. But if worst case scenario, I want to know going forward that I have investigative information that's going to give me an indication that I have how much violence has been involved and is an individual capable in his immediate

circle of doing homicidal violence? Are they capable of disposing of remains, that sort of thing? Because that's going to give me a pattern that I can go to as a medical legal death investigator and try to determine his whereabouts. What are the possibilities that we're talking about? All the courtroom, lawyer fighting back and forth and continuing on in court and all that, that can be solved at a later date. Right now, the focus is on Lucas. We have to find him, and we have to find him now. Please help us. All of you truckers out there there all of you on the road

please look for this boy please help us bring him home i feel sick in my stomach my My head says statistically and evidentiary wise, Lucas is gone from this world. But my heart says maybe there is a chance. 4 661 316 383 4 6 6 1 Where

is Lucas? Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off. Goodbye friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.