Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Devil Mom stands by while 'boyfriend' rapes, murders, dismembers her own teen-girl daughter Grace Packer

Episode Date: April 3, 2019

Jacob Sullivan admitted that he raped, tortured, and murdered his girlfriend’s 14-year-old daughter, Grace Packer, in July 2016. When a Bucks County judge sentenced the Pennsylvania man to death after a jury recommendation, she told Sullivan "You have no soul!" Nancy Grace looks at the Grace Packer case with a panel including forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, North Carolina family and divorce lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensics expert Karen Smith, South Carolina medical examiner Dr. Michelle Dupre, and Crime Stories Reporter Robyn Walensky. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. girl. Prosecutors say Sullivan beat and raped Grace. It's unspeakable. Some sort of rape fantasy. The crimes she is accused of are sick. Kidnapped, raped, and murdered her adopted daughter, Grace Packer. She matters to us. She matters to the community. The hours and the days leading up to her murder were probably the most horrible and traumatic that any person should ever have had to experience. And then I only had three years with my daughter. I'm just so, so distraught. A 14-year-old little girl raped, murdered, and dismembered by mommy's boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

We want justice. Joining me, Ellen Killorn from CrimeOnline.com. Ellen, what happened to 14-year-old Grace? Nancy, Grace Packer was 14 years old when her own mother and her mother's boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan, brought her to a home that they had rented at Bucks County. She was in her pajamas when they took her there. Jacob Sullivan hit her in the face. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, right there, right there, right there. You know, I want to go to Kathleen Murphy. Guys with me, an all-star panel.

Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer. Karen Smith, forensics expert. Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigative Field Guide. Forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober. CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Robin Walensky, author of Beautiful Life, CSI Behind Casey Anthony Trial on Amazon, to Kathleen Murphy. Kathleen, Lucy insisted we go to Goodwill this weekend, and she got all these psychedelic colored pants. They just kind of hang

on her. They're like a jersey and she's sleeping in them. I washed them and dried them. She's sleeping in them. And when she and John David get out of their baths and they come in and they're little PJs. I've never seen anything more precious in my life. And they're so innocent, and they're so trusting and sweet. They come in in their PJs and their little bedroom shoes. And I'm just thinking of little Grace Packer. She's just three years, two and a half years older than the twins and her little PJs.

I can't. I just can't. I can't imagine. I can't think about it. But I'm livid that this woman was allowed to continue fostering this child in light of the previous allegations of her husband. And I'm livid that she was able to manipulate the system. And I'm livid at social service. But mostly, I'm livid at social service. There's just mostly I'm livid at the criminal. I'm beside. I want, I want him to get the death penalty, but the mother, her own mom, part of this, you know, EK, Ellen Kaloran, crimeonline.com investigative reporter. I I've gotten ahead of myself, but first of all,

I want to know what happened to 14 year old Grace. Nancy, what happened was absolutely horrific. At that home in July, Jacob Sullivan beat her and he and he raped her. And Sarah Packer, her own mother, stood by and watched and encouraged it. They gave her some over-the-counter sleeping pills. They tied her up. They bound her with zip ties. And they brought her up to an attic, and they stuffed her into a sweltering hot cedar closet. And then they left. And when they came back hours later, several hours later, possibly up to 12, Jacob Sullivan told detectives he expected her to be dead, but she wasn't. She was still alive. So again, with Sarah Packer, the girl's own mother, standing by, Jacob Sullivan

strangled the girl to death. And then they left her there. With the mom standing by, with the mom right there. I don't get it. To Dr. Daniel Bober, I need to shrink. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober joining me. So the mom stands by while her so-called boyfriend sex assaults, murders, then comes back. The child is still somehow alive.

And then he finishes the murder and dismembers her? I don't understand it. And apparently it was part of some fantasy. What fantasy, Dr. Bober? Let's just start with that. What fantasy? You know what, Nancy? I've been involved in child custody cases like this,

and it's incomprehensible. I mean, it goes against every maternal instinct. You know, you would lay down your life for your child. You would take a bullet for your child. And this is someone who basically participated in her rape and murder and did it so callously. It just goes against, you know, every sort of biological theory of evolution that you're supposed to protect your child. It's really heinous. I don't understand the mom standing by. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, people think they've dismembered a body. It never turns out that way. When you dismember a body, it's not like on TV or in the movies. I mean, there's really no way you can get rid of all that evidence. You're right, Nancy.

That's why I call it CFL. You can't get rid of all the evidence. And to dismember a body is much, much harder than you may think. You know what's so ironic to Kathleen Murphy? Grace's adoptive mom, Sarah Packer, actually once worked worked Northampton County. And not only that, child services knew abuse was happening in the home and they never took Grace out of the home. If you look at Grace Packer, she looks like any other teen girl, just happy, smiling. Nobody had any idea the way that she was being abused in the home. It's just, as a matter of fact, when she tried to escape,

she was strangled and dismembered and stored in cat litter. Help me out with that. This mother was clearly manipulating the coworkers, manipulating the co-workers manipulating the social workers manipulating the system her husband was arrested for abusing the older child they knew that something was going on in the house but they're only human and they're overworked. I just cannot comprehend it. They knew about abuse in the home and they did nothing. I don't care how many cases they had. This girl is dead and they had the opportunity to fix it and they did nothing. This little girl's life ended in hell. Hell.

And it's amazing to me. Karen Smith, with me, forensics expert. You go to a red light. You look around. There is a freak around you. Somebody evil. I don't know who they are. Because these people seemingly carried on normal lives.

And they had this sick fantasy going on. What did they possibly think to Karen Smith? How was cat litter going to what? Stop the body from decomposing? Stop the smell of decomposure? What, Karen? Well, it won't stop that. It won't stop the decomposition process.

It acts as a desiccant. It absorbs some of the decompositional fluids and it may stop some of that, but what it won't do is stop the odor. It won't stop the process. So while they had this, it just breaks my heart. They had this little girl's body in an attic, in a cardboard box filled with cat litter for four months. Four months before they decided to take her body out into a bathroom in the upstairs of this home and dismember it with a bow saw. And then they discarded her body into the woods where it was subsequently found. So, you know, I would defer to the medical examiner on what that would look like. I have kind of an idea that it would be a little bit mummified, but at this point, the forensic evidence inside that house would absolutely be overwhelming, Nancy.

Overwhelming. Joining me, Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, CSI Behind the Casey Anthony Trial on Amazon. Robin Walensky, let me ask you this. The murder of this little 14-year-old girl is especially depraved. All murders are a mortal sin. What can you tell us about mom, Sarah Packer, and her boyfriend, Jacob Sullivan? Well, they were saying that, you know, she was this out of control, 14-year-old, you know, that she had problems, that she was a pain in the whatever. But you know what? 14-year-olds are that way. You and I were once 14 years old. And maybe she was and maybe she wasn't.

Maybe she was just an adolescent with the same problems that every other adolescent girl or boy experiences. And they were saying that she was a problem kid. But why in the world are you making her at 14 part of your sex fantasy with a gag in her mouth and all the rest of it. Ellen Kaloran with me, Crime Online investigative reporter. Ellen, what could be a possible motive? Believe it or not, Nancy, Bucks County District Attorney Matthew Weintraub said that the motive for this was a rape and murder fantasy. Sarah Packer was sexually aroused by the violence that was committed to her daughter and by watching it and by refusing

to help her. Okay, you know what? That is just sick. The mother deserves a death penalty too. We're here because we just made an arrest in the Grace Packer homicide. Today we arrested and brought in for arraignment her mother,

Sarah Packer. As you know, about 12 hours ago, her co-defendant was arraigned and that was Jacob Sullivan. They've been charged with substantially the same charges with one exception. We believe and we will prove at trial that Sarah Packer was complicit in her daughter's murder and that she materially participated in the planning and in the aftermath of the murder. You know, he needs the death penalty badly implemented. Now, out of the blue, after a jury finally gives him the death penalty, they put a moratorium on it in Pennsylvania. So I guess in Pennsylvania, you can have a sick rape torture fantasy on a little girl, hack her body up, store it in cat litter. And there's no chance you'll ever get the death penalty in Pennsylvania.

That's a thought to just mull over. Take a listen to this. How could any mother do this to a child, to their child? I don't have an answer. A crime so twisted, seasoned prosecutors are left without words. Bucks County District Attorney Matt Weintraub announcing the arrest of 41-year-old Sarah Packer in the rape, murder and dismemberment of Packer's 14-year-old adoptive daughter, Grace. Packer reported the teen missing in July from their Abington Township home. Hunters found the child's body in October in rural Luzerne County. She was beaten, she was raped, she was sexually assaulted and then she was dumped like garbage up in the woods. Police say Packer and her boyfriend Jacob Sullivan planned Grace's murder in order to act out a sick rape and murder

fantasy then claimed she was missing to throw police off the trail. It worked. Prosecutors say the couple stored Grace's body in an upstairs attic before dumping it. Despite a search police never found the body. Authorities say detectives at that time still believe the child was missing. And poor Grace was stored in a cedar closet while covered with mothballs and kitty litter. To them, she was unfortunately a disposable child. Really shakes one's belief in the goodness of humanity. It really does. That's our friends at WTXF, Fox 29. Sabrina Correicos, I mean, I am sick that not only did moms live in murder this child, the mother, Sarah Packer, stood by and let her daughter be sex assaulted, gagged, drugged, and murdered as part of her own sick fantasy.

To Ellen Kaloran joining me from CrimeOnline.com, do you believe that one person was the mastermind and the other person went along, which we so often see, or no? You know, hold on now. I'm going to circle back to you. To Dr. Bober, forensic psychiatrist, what is that dynamic when one person is the mastermind and someone else goes along? Have you seen that in any other cases? You know what, Nancy? I've brought up this case before, but do you remember Carla Homolka and Paul Bernardo in Canada? When Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka, they used a sister as a sex slave in a rape fantasy, and she ended up dying, and her own sister participated in her rape and murder, and then she went on to participate in other crimes that are very similar. So in that particular case, I just think that Carla had

such core self-concept that she basically went along with anything the guy wanted. But in this case, it's very different because you're dealing with a mother, again, who you would think would have her first instinct would be to protect her child. And that's not what happened here. And to Kathleen Murphy in North Carolina, you see so much of this where the mom or the woman just stands by and does nothing when the child is getting abused. She should obviously be in court. She should obviously go to jail. She should obviously be punished. And I believe she should be punished equally.

This girl would be protected if she had taken steps to remove her from this god awful but i don't get it dr bober why does one person go along with the heinous acts of the mastermind why you know what nancy obviously the mother herself has some underlying mental health issues she's a weak person uh and she was you know more than complicit she was an active participant in it. So it's hard to say, but obviously we would need to know more about her background. You know, to Ellen Kaloran, let me ask you another question because they answered that. Packer and Sullivan are already decidedly guilty within the system. But aside from that, how did the system fail this little girl? And before you even start on, I want to tell you something. You know, the mother, Grace Packer, worked within the child system. And I think that's why child services did

not take the children away from her, even when they knew there was abuse. They were protecting one of their own. Nancy, I think that's very possible because I can't explain it any other way. Sarah and her ex-husband, David Packer, had fostered dozens of children and fostered Grace before they adopted her. David Packer was found guilty of sexual abuse. Grace Packer was believed to be one of his victims. This is going back to 2011, five years before she was killed. David's arrest and conviction was enough for Sarah Packer to finally lose her job in child services, but it wasn't enough to have the children removed from the home. I don't understand that. Wait, are you telling me that Grace was a victim of Jacob

Sullivan back in 2000? David Packer. Oh, that, okay. David Packer, Sarah Packer's first husband. Yes, it was a known thing that children were being abused in her home. It was enough to get her fired, but the children remained in the home. How long was her history of abusing children? I mean, she had been bringing in foster children for a really long time. For over a decade, maybe a decade and a half. And there was an accusation, no conviction, but there was an accusation of abuse against David Packer going back to 2006. It was 2011 that he was convicted and sent back to jail, sent to jail. But the accusations were years earlier. You know, that's something I don't understand. Robin Walensky,

joining me, Crime Online investigative reporter. It seems like the mother, Sarah Packer, she gets rid of David Packer, the first husband who was convicted of abusing little Grace. And then she just basically replaces him. He's a cog in the wheel with Jacob Sullivan and the abuse goes on. Yeah, she goes for the same thing twice. It's a pattern for her. And she's involved with these psycho men that are abusing children. And, you know, she reminds me of someone who's in a cult, who is so mesmerized by the leader that she's willing to drink the Kool-Aid of these men and whatever they tell her to do and whatever fantasy Nancy they present, she goes along with it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. ¶¶

Court documents state that on July 8th, the couple took Grace from Sarah Packer's home in Abington to a home in Quakertown. According to detectives, Sullivan says the couple attacked Grace, sexually assaulted her, and drugged her before he strangled her. They kept her body in the car. The Grace had gone missing to Abington police. Sullivan is quoted in the report saying during the investigation, the couple became scared of being caught. So they dismembered Grace's body with a bow saw and dumped her remains in Bear Creek Township. The remains were found in October.

Dental records proved the remains were Grace's. Now, I repeatedly asked Sarah coming in and out of court if she in fact did this. She kept her head down and said nothing. You are hearing ABC6 reporter Bob Brooks in one of the most heinous cases I have ever heard of. I want to go to Ellen Kaloran. Ellen, what were these two doing during the four months that she knew her daughter, having been sex assaulted brutally with a gag in her mouth, as mommy stood by and watched it happen, murdered. When the first murder attempt didn't work, they left her lying there in a sweltering attic, dying.

Come back in, he, Jacob Sullivan, finishes the murder by strangling her dead as the girl just you know at that point couldn't fight back anymore and Sarah Packer stood by and let it happen then they dismember her with a bow saw they put her body in cat litter and finally throw the body away. But what were they doing in the four months, all the months that they knew little Grace was sitting in a cardboard box? Nancy, it's almost hard to believe that anyone could do this, but those people kept that body, kept that little girl's body in a closet in an attic for months before police came knocking. And they went up there every single day.

They lived there with another woman who they were in a polyamorous relationship. Whoa, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop. Okay. Polyamorous relationship. Kathleen Murphy, you're the divorce lawyer. Could you just explain what that means? A polyamorous relationship in North Carolina is not legally recognized, but it's more than two people in a faux marriage. So it's two people plus one, plus two, plus three. You know what?

It sounds like a bunch of cats and dogs. Really. I mean, you can call it Ellen Killorn. I don't know what Kool-Aid you've been drinking. A polyamorous relationship. That means everybody's sleeping together. And I'm not judging. I couldn't care less what other people do in their own private time. But when you bring a child into

the scenario, that changes things. I don't care who sleeps with who, cats and dogs sleeping together, to take a phrase from Ghostbusters but Dr. Michelle Dupree joining me let's just bring it home what happened to this little girl's body Dr. Dupree Nancy what happened to this little girl's body in this amount of time is most likely it would start to mummify because of the way that it was held, which would make it very difficult for some things to occur. For example, some types of identification, you know, may be obliterated. But for the most part, it would simply start to mummify or dehydrate. Well, then how do you perform an autopsy on a mummified body?

It can be done. It's just that it's much tougher. And we can still, not in this case, but in cases if we needed to get fingerprints, we simply rehydrate the fingertips to actually be able to get fingerprints. Okay, stop right there. That's something new to me. What do you mean you rehydrate it rehydrate a body well we rehydrate the fingertips if we needed to get fingerprints we wouldn't rehydrate what does that mean rehydrate break it down it means that we put water um back into the tissue so for fingerprints how do you do that how do you? For fingerprints, we would take a syringe filled with water and simply inject it underneath the skin so that it plumps back up the tissue

so that we're able to then roll the fingerprints and get a sample. People ask me all the time, how do you sleep at night? I don't really know how I sleep at night. But now that I've heard that, I'd like for you to send me a detailed email about how you sleep at night, rehydrating a body by injecting water into the fingerprints, the fingertips, so you can get a print. Okay, I almost wish I hadn't even asked that. No offense to you, of course, Dr. Dupree.

Listen to this. This has been a arduous two and a half year journey that we've had to take always keeping grace in the forefront of our minds. And I remember way back when on that cold, cold night when we locked up Sullivan and his co-defendant who has yet to be judged, but we hope will be tomorrow, Sarah Packer, that I asked the question rhetorically, who would speak for Grace? And I pledged that we would. And not only have we, but the jury of Bucks County citizens has judged and has spoke for Grace loud and clear and gotten her justice on this criminal case. And candidly, I'm sure I'm anticipating what you're all going to ask me.

What do I think of the sentence? You got what you deserve, plain and simple. Death is the appropriate sentence for this man. Guys, I want to pause. When do you want to spot the burglar? When he's outside casing your home or when he's already inside? John had a blink camera it alerted him burglars trying to break in while he and his family are actually home or shannon her blink

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All in. $79.99. Thanks to Blink, home security just got easier. Go to BlinkProtect.com slash Nancy. BlinkProtect.com slash Nancy. security just got easier go to blink protect dot com slash nancy blink protect dot com slash nancy blink protect dot com slash nancy blink is an amazon company and it works with alexa poor grace was stored in a cedar closet while covered with mothballs and kitty litter, I believe, so that she would not rot. We have information that Sarah Packer was the one that reported Grace Packer missing so that she could throw the police and investigators off of the trail to try to dispel any kind of evidence of guilt on her part or that of her lover. I think that there was just a fixation in the minds of the co-defendants that

they wanted to see a certain result come about to satisfy some sick perverted fantasy of theirs and they made it a reality. They made it happen and that has nothing to do with who Grace Packer was. To them she was unfortunately a disposable child. And that's nowhere near acceptable. To Ellen Kaloran, what more can you tell me about what they were doing all this time? They were storing their daughter's body. Grace Packer, a little girl. Sarah Packer knew Grace was being stored upstairs dismembered in cat litter.

They were up and down every single day next to Grace's dead body, and they installed a sex swing right outside the door of the closet where Grace was buried in cat litter. Say, Ellen, you can't just drop something like that on my head and not explain it. What do you mean a sex swing? Well, I don't know exactly how these things work um but it was the prosecutors described it in court as a swing that they would

use as as part of their whatever it was that they were getting up to sexually and they would use it and it was just outside of the closet where grace was for a month okay Ellen Ellen I'd like to apologize right here and now because I knew uh you weren't going to give me a straight answer on what is a sex swing but I bet I know somebody that will Robin Walensky what is a sex swing wow coming to me for the answer on that one Nancy well it's a device that people use uh when they engage you know what I'll spare you i'll spare you because i've said everything there is to say i think i hope i have any way to a jury a sex swing also known as a sling it's a harness to allow sex between one partner suspended by the swing and another partner who moves freely. So I'm going to let you use your imagination on that.

So my point is, and I guess, you know, I don't know where to go with this, but I'm thinking about these two. And yes, that's kind of funny imagining these two putting in a sex swing, but hold on a moment. I'll think about Grace Packer and the complete and total malignant heart that not only Jacob Sullivan, 46, and his polyamorous lover

Sarah Packer, 44 had malignant heart that they could do this to a little girl dismember her store her body parts in cat litter in a cardboard box and then they turned the area around her dead body

into a sex dungeon. Sarah Packer had taken in 30 foster children. How come nobody ever suspected anything was happening? And then you get the first sex abuse case. Why, Ellen, were the children allowed to stay in the home it does appear that people did know there was something wrong so I can't explain why Grace was allowed to stay with Sarah Packer Grace had a guidance counselor who said that she had excellent grades and she was a very good student, but she knew that she was having trouble at home because Sarah Packer was constantly threatening to send her to a residential home. And then this girl that Sarah and Jacob described as a problem

child instead wrote them a sweet and kind letter saying, I understand if you don't want me to live here and I still love you guys. So people did know that there was something very, very wrong. And there were more than three months before anyone checked up on the home after they reported this girl missing, this girl who we know was abused in the past. Ellen Kalorna, what more can you tell me? I do think that it's just tragedy on top of tragedy that this body, this little girl's body, was sitting in the home for almost four months while they were carrying on their depraved lives. And it was only in October

that someone came knocking on the door to check on a missing persons report that was made in July. That's the only reason that they even decided to get rid of the body. They thought and they believed correctly for a long time that they were going to get away with this because they saw Grace Packer as a disposable person, and they thought everyone else would, too. Robin Walensky, somewhere in the mix, there's got to be a bio mom, the biological mother of Grace Packer. Didn't she care? Wasn't she watching out what was happening with Grace and this devil, Jacob Sullivan, and that horrible mother, Sarah Packer?

Where's she in the mix? Where's the bio dad in the mix? So Nancy, we don't really know anything about Grace's biological father, but we do know she was with her biological mother for the first three years of her life before her mom had to put her into foster care. The circumstances surrounding that, we really don't know.

But her biological mother, her name is Rose Hunsaker. Again, Rose Hunsaker, the biological mother. She did show up at the memorial service. She was really broken up, had to be escorted by family and friends, was visibly shaken, in tears, grieving for her daughter. Now, ABC6 reporter Chad Pradelli catching up with Rose at the service. Listen to this. Dozens of strangers filled the New Life Presbyterian Church this afternoon to say goodbye to Grace Packer. Packer's biological mother was among those on hand.

She was a lovable little girl, and then I only had three years with my daughter. The memorial service was the work of a handful of Abington women who felt compelled after learning of the horrific death of Grace. Prosecutors say Sullivan beat and raped Grace as Sarah Packer washed as part of some sort of rape fantasy. She was allegedly then poisoned and eventually strangled. It shows the community's grief. It's very crowded.

There's a lot of sad faces. She matters to us. She matters to the community. It's right to give her a dignified, honorable send-off. The state took Packer from her biological parents when she was just three. Sarah and David Packer adopted her, but David Packer would later be charged with sexual abuse of children. Sources say Grace was one of his victims. He served five

years behind bars. Sadly, relatives who last saw Grace when she was just three remember a happy little girl. The life she endured is agonizing. I don't see how anyone could hurt her. She was so cheerful. She lit up everybody's day. She was just a happy person to be around. Now, Nancy, it only took the jury 10 minutes to sentence Jacob Sullivan. Let's listen to WFMZ 69 news reporter Jamie Stover. After more than 10 hours of deliberation over the course of three days, it took the jury just 10 minutes this morning to decide it would be death for Jacob Sullivan. The jury, one juror actually was choked up when they had to affirm that this was a unanimous decision and the decision that all of them wanted. The judge asked them if they wanted to be a part of the actual sentencing being imposed. All of them showed up. In fact, they had

to get a bigger courtroom for all the people to be there to watch as Jacob Sullivan was given the death penalty. The judge walked in with a smile, actually, before she imposed that sentence. And she said that she had no problem giving this man the death penalty, explaining all the horrific things that he admitted to doing to 14-year-old Grace Packer. She ripped into him. She told him that he had no soul. She said that in all her years, she has never said that to a human being and said that she may not ever say that again except for one other person, Sarah Packer. And she told Jacob Sullivan that this was his first judgment day. There would be a second

judgment day. And she said that he would not be in the same place as 14-year-old Grace Packer. She said that Grace Packer had a smile that would charm anyone but him. She had lots of words for him and she went over the magnitude of this case. She went over all of the disturbing details and admitted that she as well had trouble sleeping at night going through and listening to all the horrific details of the rape, murder and dismemberment of 14-year-old Grace Packer. Sullivan was given the death penalty for the homicide of Grace Packer, the judge. It was up to her to decide what the punishment would be for all of those other charges, including kidnapping, the rape, and the list goes on. And she gave the max for every one of those charges and said that they will run consecutively. Now, this makes Jacob Sullivan the 143rd person to be on death row currently in Pennsylvania.

Because it is a death sentence, it will automatically be appealed. Today, we also spoke with the district attorney. After the sentence came down, he said that Sullivan got what he deserved. He said you couldn't write a script for a more horrific horror story. You know what? The death penalty is too good for them. You know what, Grace Packer, my sweet girl, rest in peace. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off.

Goodbye, friend.