Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Devilish road rager tails mom and sons, GUNS THEM DOWN at dentist office

Episode Date: December 26, 2019

A Colorado man is facing murder charges after he chases a mom and her sons during a road rage incident. According to police, the suspect then shoots the family down at a dental office parking lot. The gruesome incident left a teen boy dead, and his mother and younger brother in critical condition.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Wendy Patrick: California prosecutor  James Shelnutt : Retired 27-year metro Atlanta Detective, Swat Officer Dr. Daniel Bober: Psychologist  Dr. Tim Gallagher Medical Examiner for State of Florida  Dave Mack: Investigative Reporter at CrimeOnline Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. It's just overwhelming. A little boy sees a road rage killer open fire, shooting his mommy and his siblings. I find it really hard to believe that a mother, Megan Bigelow, 41 years old, with all of her children in the car, is going to be weaving in and out in traffic having a road rage confrontation. What happened? What happened in the parking lot of the local dentist? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When I came out the back door to see what was going on, I witnessed a gentleman that had been shot multiple times up against the building right here.

He was very concerned about his daughter's whereabouts. He had been shot multiple times. He did say there was a lady just right in front of this building here that had been shot in the head. It looked like she was probably face down on the concrete. He was trying to tell the police to go check her. I called him. I said, come here, come here, come here. And he said, I want to go over there. My mom just got shot. Oh, my stars. A little boy witness says a road rage killer opens fire on the boy's family, killing his 13 year old brother, shooting his mom and sibling? Good gravy!

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You were just hearing from our friends at 9 News in Denver. With me, an all-star panel to break it apart and put it back together again. Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Stephen Lampley, detective and author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Dr. Debbie Jaffe Ellis, psychologist, adjunct professor, Columbia University.

Karen Smith joining me from the Florida jurisdiction, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. But right now to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Road rage ends in a shooting death. Tell me what happened. Nancy, a headline here actually explains what happened. You've got a mom and her three boys going to an afternoon dental appointment. You've got traffic on the road and Mrs. Bigelow is trying to move to her right to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle that's trying to pass. She apparently cuts off Jeremy Webster, a 23-year-old man, and he then follows her, terrorizing this family as they go down the road, enough that witnesses saw them going back and forth on the road. Mrs. Bigelow. Okay, wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. What I'm saying is I think she was being defensive in trying to avoid this 23-year-old that is terrorizing her going down the road. She was getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle when apparently, you know, she did maybe cut this guy off, but she wasn't the aggressor here. She's got her three boys in the car. They're 13, 12, and 7. They're headed to a dentist appointment. This guy getting behind her is the aggressor and is doing enough jockeying down the road. Lord in heaven.

You know, Ashley Wilcott, my husband, for Pete's sake, and I can't say I haven't ever done it myself, but when people cut him off or they won't go at a red light, he will sit on the horn. And he's, you know, I love David, but he's a big lug. And I'm always afraid he'll get out of the car and just, like, kick their car or something. Like, David, look around you. You don't know these people. A good 40% of them are on parole or probation. Trust me on that.

You don't know who's got a gun in their car. Just suck it up. That means he can't yell at people. He can't make faces at them, gestulate them tailgate them sit on the horn it means i cannot shoot a bird at anybody that cuts me off it just you can't do that not anymore it just not anymore and i find it really hard i mean have you ever sat in a red light and just peeked around and thought wow is that a convicted fel? Do they have a gun in the car? Only because of what we do for a living, right? I do now. So I have to say my 16 year old that, you know, he is now driving. And that's one of the things I've had to teach him. Not only the

extreme flipping someone off, but I tell him, be careful. Don't look next to you and let your facial expression indicate that you're annoyed or angry because it can take almost nothing to trigger people. And a lot of people nationwide own guns, keep guns in their car. It is not worth the risk because regrettably, someone who is going to commit road rage does not care if your children are in the car or not no they don't care we are talking about a 23 year old guy jeremy webster who apparently pulls his gun and starts shooting in the suburbs steve lampley, where we left off with Dave Mack was the mom was going in and out of traffic trying to get away from this guy. Yeah, I mean, the mother, we got a mother and three sons, three children in the car. She doesn't want to stop and then give this person an

opportunity to do something to her family. So she's doing, in my opinion, the best thing she could do is try to get away from him. Back to Dave, Matt. Dave, how long does Jeremy Webster follow the mom, Megan Bigelow, and her children? Nancy, this actually went about two and a half to three miles on the road while they were headed to this dental appointment. Now, Mrs. Bigelow, actually, she kept her head about her, okay? She actually continued on the road. She didn't stop and confront the guy. She continued on her path to get to this dental office parking lot where there were plenty of witnesses. And so as they pulled in, if you can imagine, Jeremy Webster was right on her tail following her into the parking

lot. Megan Bigelow heroically was able to put her car in a position in that parking lot where she was able to take a picture of the man's license plate. Okay, wait a minute. To do that, that would require her getting out and getting a picture from either the front or the back of the car. I bet that infuriated him, Dave Mack. It did because it's actually from that moment, it led to an argument. Now, Mrs. Bigelow has three young sons with her, 13, 12, and seven. Okay. Now she's mama bear. She's protecting her boys. She actually confronts Jeremy Webster there in the parking lot. And as you said, probably did get infuriated when she took a picture of his license plate. That's when he started arguing with her. Now she had the presence

of mind to take the picture of the license plate, but what happened next wait i'm just learning something i'm learning that the little boy the 12 year old boy that's the age of my children john david and lucy tells police mommy took a photo of the driver's plate she's talking about the car tag on her phone before they got out of the car and that means she she's not out walking around Jeremy Webster's car taking pictures of it. She did that before she got out of the car. Let me understand something. This is in a dentist office parking lot.

Is that correct? The Comfort Dental parking lot? Yes. And there were several other businesses in this little shopping strip mall where the dental office was. But here's the part and what happened, Nancy, when Mrs. Bigelow pulls her vehicle into that parking lot, Jeremy Webster pulled directly behind her and stopped in the middle of the parking lot, blocking her in where she can't go anywhere else. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I had just dropped her off. We just live right down the street on 79th. There was a gentleman that was there.

He had a gunshot wound to his arm. The gentleman was holding it, making sure he wasn't bleeding out. He had a gunshot wound to his chest. As a parent, you couldn't, you know, imagine what your mind goes through. In today's world, you never know where it's going to happen whenever somebody loses a trigger anymore. You are hearing a witness at the road rage shooting. That was James Cisneros. What happened? What happened in the parking lot of the local dentist? I just took the twins to the orthodontist and I let them go in first and I parked and

followed. It's unbelievable that now four people have been shot and a little boy is dead. Joining me, Ashley Wilcott, Steve Lampley, Dr. Debbie Jaffe Ellis, Karen Smith, and Dave Mack. To Dr. Debbie Jaffe Ellis, psychologist, adjunct professor, Columbia University. Dr. Debbie, what exactly is road rage, psychologically speaking? Psychologically, you could almost say it's an altered state of consciousness. The part of the person's brain who's experiencing the rage is very primal. And the person's ability at that time to reason or to restrain themselves is non-active. And so there's a wild beast here.

And one of the best things that a person can do who might be around them is to make the best choice they can. And by the way, at that time, they might be in a somewhat altered state of panic and fear. Nonetheless, the goal, not to provoke, not to provoke. The rage does not come from the car incident. It's a result of pent-up stuff, and we don't know from how many years back. And it's also a result, possibly,

if it's a young person carrying out these acts, of a brain that's not fully developed, where that part of the brain that has the ability to think things through and to restrain themselves from taking unhealthy actions isn't fully formed. So I'm not trying to justify in any way a person's actions if their brain isn't fully formed. I'm just trying to give you some facts. Probably in addition to all of the above is an attitude and a way of thinking that fuels the fire, thinking that no one should have power over me, or I can't stand it when people drive in front of me. These demanding, out of perspective, irrational demands fuel any

neurological component and any pent-up stuff that is flooding through. To Karen Smith, forensics expert joining me out of Florida, the founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen, how do you go about proving exactly what happened? The forensics. And here's what they've got. This Jeremy person used a Glock. A Glock is a semi-automatic handgun. It automatically ejects casings every time the trigger is pulled. So, you know, you're looking at somebody who not only made the decision to get a gun, then they pointed it and they pulled the trigger. That is three separate incidents that he chose to do, and he fired the gun repeatedly at numerous people.

So the placings of the casings somewhat tell you the pattern that he walked or moved while he was firing it. The casings that are left behind at the scene can be linked to the handgun that he used if they found that in his car or on his person. And they can also tell from the gunshot wounds and the positions of the people left behind to die, where they were, what position they were in, how close the gun was, or how far away it was. So the forensics are going to tell a story. It may not be the exact story, but with the witness statements and everything left behind at that crime scene, there's going to be a really good chance that everything will come to bearing court. How does a mom and two of her three boys and an innocent bystander get shot simply going to the dentist? Take a listen to this. Megan Bigelow told detectives several months after that shooting when she was finally interviewed by them

that she was trying to get over into the right lane because there was an emergency vehicle coming up right behind her. She was trying to get over. That's when she allegedly cut off Jeremy Webster. The two exchanged words through their driver's side windows and then he followed her to a parking lot. The two got out of the car, argued some more, and that's when he allegedly opened fire. The Bigelow family was sitting in the courtroom as all of this was being described. Four months after a deadly road rage incident in Westminster, a judge is now trying to determine whether there's enough evidence for the case to move to trial. On one side of the courtroom, a grieving Von Bigelow senior., his wife Megan and their sons

Von Jr. and Asa were shot that fateful day, along with one other man. 13-year-old Von Jr. did not survive. On the other side of the courtroom, Jeremy Webster, the man police say pulled the trigger. Responding officers and Westminster detectives described what unfolded that day. One of the first officers on the scene explained the chaos of June 14th, going into graphic detail about the injuries suffered by each of the four victims. You're hearing our friends at ABC Denver 7. That was Megan Lopez. Listen to this. Vaughn Sr. silently sobbed as officers described seven-year-old Asa's injuries. The officer thought Asa was dead when he first approached him, curled up in a fetal position not far from his mother and brother. Vaughn Sr. broke down once more when a witness statement described the death of his older son. The witness calling Vaughn Jr.'s death a quote

execution, saying Webster stood over the boy as he was kneeling on the ground and shot him. We also learned about what happened immediately after that shooting. According to police, Jeremy Webster got back in his car, drove to Home Depot to buy a saw, and went back to remodeling a house before driving home. He was caught several hours later in Castle Rock. Meanwhile, the defense brought up Webster's mental history, saying he's been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And this afternoon, all of us were kicked out of the courtroom today. It was sealed

as the judge went ahead and watched the entire interrogation video for Jeremy Webster. It's more than three hours long and in it, Jeremy Webster allegedly confesses to that shooting. Now, I just found out a couple of minutes ago that this court has gone into recess. The judge is going to finish watching that video and that's when we could find out whether or not there's enough evidence for this to actually move to trial. Good grief if they've got a confession and eyewitnesses I don't know what more they would need to take this case to trial. Ashley Wolcott, I'm just imagining the mom she's trying to usher the boys toward the dentist to get inside, to get them safe, when this guy comes out and starts shooting.

She did have words with Jeremy Webster. I don't think it even took her saying anything to him to push him over the edge. I think he was a loaded gun, a fire waiting to explode. What do you make of it? I would agree with you. And I think here's the problem. Anytime you have someone who's that volatile, it really doesn't matter at that point, in my opinion, what you say or do. They are going to do what they are going to do. They've already engaged in their rage, which is going to cause them to do something like shoot, like he did in this case.

Having said that, I'm still going to say this. It is not her fault. It is not her fault. I do not believe she could have prevented this, but it is important for people to keep in mind, again, do everything you can not to engage because people are crazy out there. crime stories with nancy grace the alleged gunman told detectives that he feels like someone's always out to get him and that is why he was carrying guns the day of the shooting yeah and the suspect said that in a three-hour interrogation after his

arrest a judge here in adams county watched that interrogation video in private today in it jeremy webster tells detectives the shooting felt like a dream and he said he felt like he was watching someone else attack the bigelow family. In the shooting, 13-year-old Vaughn Jr. was shot and killed. His mom and youngest brother were also shot. The mother, Megan Bigelow, says she swerved trying to avoid an emergency vehicle, accidentally cutting off the suspect in traffic. Then, according to witnesses, the suspect was shot in the back of the car and was shot in the back of the car in the traffic. Then, according to witnesses, the

suspect followed her into the parking lot of a dentist's office, and after a brief argument, he opened fire on the family and another bystander. Witnesses say Jeremy Webster saw the 13 year old kneeling and walked over and shot him

again in quote execution style. Today, the defense tried to argue that Webster was impaired mentally at the time of the shooting and was perhaps not fit to stand trial. The judge disagreed and set the arraignment date for the week after Thanksgiving. Well, that means this is going to trial. You are hearing our friends at Denver 7. That was Lance Hernandez. An arraignment is when you are formally read the charges against you and advised of many of your rights under the Constitution. That's what an arraignment is, when the actual charges brought by a preliminary hearing

judge or a grand jury is read out loud in court and you are thereby formally on notice of what the charges are we see the defense already lining up that he was bipolar didn't know what he was doing if he didn't know how what he was doing dave mack how can you explain and tell me if i'm right or wrong that after he shoots the little boy dead and shoots the other witnesses the the mother, the brother, and an innocent guy standing in the parking lot trying to take his daughter to the dentist. He goes to Home Depot, whips out cash or a credit card, buys a saw, and heads to work. He goes to work like any other day. So how can he be insane and not know right from wrong? Interesting that from the very beginning of this interaction between Mr. Webster and the police, he was playing the mentally deficient card or however you want to refer to it, saying that he had just changed medication that day.

I wondered the same thing. This is a guy that seemed to be perfectly prepared to shoot somebody willy nilly and then go on about his daily life. It makes absolutely no sense at all what Jeremy Webster is claiming as what was going on in his mind before this took place. You know, I learned a long time ago, and it took years for it to sink in, after my fiancée was murdered just before our wedding, that you start your day like every other day. Everything seems perfectly fine. I remember walking out of a statistics exam on my way to work at the library and thinking about how bright and sunny and

beautiful the day was. So glad to get the test behind me. And that's when I found out that out of the blue Keith had been murdered who would think on your way to the dentist office your 13 year old son is going to be murdered execution style in the parking area at the dentist office to Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis, joining us, psychologist, he is claiming it all felt like a dream. But then he went to Home Depot and made a purchase and went straight to work. Yeah, you know, people, whether they have bipolar condition or not. And by the way, I feel compelled to say, let's not give a stigmatized account of the bipolar condition. There are countless people suffering from bipolar disorder that don't go out and murder people. So putting that diagnosis aside, it sounds like he was very much paranoid. A few minutes ago, one of the reporters that you were presenting the words of said that he felt people were out to get him. And then earlier

when you had disclosed that when the mother took the photo, that seemed to really set him off. So, you know, people without bipolar can be paranoid as well, and they can disassociate. So, you know, all of us, whether we have mental issues or not, are able to compartmentalize. So he may have been literally blinded by rage to do the acts. Again, I'm not necessarily blaming his bipolar condition at all. And then somehow dissociates and goes to Home Depot, a deeply troubled soul. I don't believe anyone is commenting

on the condition of bipolar. Many of us have very close relatives with bipolar and bipolar disorder and function absolutely normally in society. It's something you can deal with and that typically, not always, but typically can be controlled with medication. I don't even know if this guy has bipolar. That's just what he said. Now, what his lawyer said, I don't know if that's true or not. But what I do know, which is the point I was making, is that he is by far from insane. In fact, he leaves a scene of a mass shooting where he kills a 13-year-old boy execution style, goes to Home Depot, makes a purchase, gets in his vehicle, his Toyota Corolla, and heads to his job site at a construction site and works all day.

So clearly, he knew what he was doing. There's a difference, I believe, Nancy, between knowing what you're doing and choosing to act in evil ways. Well, yes, that's what the law is. The law is that insanity under the old McNaughton rule, which is in our common law that we brought over from Great Britain,

is that if you knew right from wrong at the time of the incident, you are not legally insane. I want to go back to him going to Home Depot, Dave Mack. You know, Dave Mack, I always say that NASA could take some tips from Home Depot, Lowe's, and Target because they have the most awesome video surveillance. I'm sure he's captured on video surveillance making that purchase. I'm assuming that he has. I haven't seen anything indicating that, but we know he purchased a saw,

so I'm going to go out there and say they got him pictured, you know, in that Home Depot buying the saw. You know, the fact that he just goes to work as if nothing is wrong. Stephen Lampley, I assume there's going to be video from the dentist office parking lot as well as Home Depot. And there will be witnesses at his workplace where he went that will describe him working that day perfectly normally. Well, that's the way it seems, Nancy. And what bothers me about this, and again, I was not there. I was not there when he confessed and waved his Miranda. But what's sticking out to me is that it seems like, in my opinion, that he was just throwing out there that, hey, my meds were changed. And it gives me the impression that maybe he used that as an excuse to do these crimes.

I don't know. But that stands out to me. But yeah, doing that and going about your daily routine, that's very troubling. crime stories with nancy grace poor babies you know um nobody deserves that children nobody deserves that our Our society has become so outrageous, you know, that you just don't know who you're living by, who you're talking to. You've got to know. It's sad that nobody could see what was going on in his head, or maybe he doesn't have anybody. Maybe somebody, you know, he didn't have anybody. Do you recognize that he's got problems? You're hearing a neighbor, that's Connie, who lived next to Jeremy Webster.

Apparently, no one knew that there was anything wrong, that there was any mental defect or instability or issue whatsoever and expressed surprise that the shooting suspect, Jeremy Webster, lived right there in her apartment complex. But take a listen to this. I was talking to you a little bit earlier about that witness I talked with. She said that she saw one of the young kids out here running toward the street. She stopped him trying to make sure that he was going to be safe and took him into a nearby dental office, Comfort Dental. I spoke with one of the co-owners of that place just a few minutes ago and he explained what staff there told him. At the time we knew he was related to the victims at the time. And the story that I heard was that he was

incredibly brave and courageous and certainly helped the police officers get to the bottom of what had gone on. Everybody's still distraught in that office today, but they are open and you can see flowers, a number of well-wishers leaving some flowers on the bushes underneath this sign here. This is the parking lot where that incident happened yesterday. Again, four people shot. One of those children died. We are told that the mom and her other child are still in critical condition and that the other victim, a man, an adult male, is expected to be okay. Again, road rage behind this shooting yesterday. Our friends at CBS4 Denver, that was Brian Mass speaking. Did you hear him state, Steve Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door,

that he made contact with another guy that must be the victim, John Gill, that he shot. John Gill was taking his daughter to the dentist. He shot him down because the guy looked at him. So this was not like they were saying a while ago. This is not necessarily tied to the incident of being cut off. It's possibly tied to pent-up anger or something that happened previously along with his paranoia, in my opinion. Well, I don't know about that. I think it's a mixture because actually we hear that the mom megan bigelow was dodging an emergency uh transport vehicle

i guess an ambulance and she accidentally cut the guy off she cut jeremy webster off and he began following her so she wasn't picked out at random, she and her family. He followed her weaving through traffic all the way to the dentist's office and pulled in behind her. It seems as if he blocked her in so she didn't have anywhere to go. I'm not sure about that, but got right behind her. So that is what triggered it because he picked her car after she cut him off by accident and followed her for some period of time on the highway until she pulls in at the dentist office. That is what triggered it. Yeah, I completely agree. But think

about road rage in general. And I've seen it happen on the interstates way too often. And that is somebody accidentally cut someone off, swerves over into the other lane, and that triggers the person next to them who then literally will chase them. I've seen it on the interstate, chasing them down. So I think that's exactly what happened. He didn't care the reason. He didn't care what was going on around him. He perceived it as she's going to run into me. It's her fault. He then instigated in a second and chased her down. Isn't it true, Dave Mack, Jackie is here in the studio is telling me that he got out, had a verbal confrontation with Megan Bigelow, the mom of

three, then went back into his car and got his Glock, his gun. Is that right? That's my understanding, Nancy. Whoa, that's what we call in the law premeditation. Ashley, explain. Here I am. So premeditation, Nancy, you know, and you've said this often, and it's so true. Premeditation can happen in a second. It can happen 10 days before an event. It is when a person thinks about it, premeditates, and decides they're going to do it. They think about it. The second, I would would submit this man started chasing her car down. He didn't know anything about her, didn't know anything about who was

in the car. He was angry she came over. He chased her down. That to me is the premeditation in this case. Well, the judge trying to determine if there's enough evidence to bind the case over for trial, well, it ends in an indictment, which means he is going to go to trial. Take a listen to our friends at KDVR. This is Shaw Turner. His name is Jeremy Webster. He's 23 years old and apparently lives in Colorado Springs. We don't know what he was doing up here in the Westminster area yesterday. He's being held for investigation of first degree murder

after deliberation, first degree homicide with extreme indifference, first degree assault and three counts of criminal attempt. Now, that road rage incident that you were talking about happened right in this area yesterday. We talked with an talk about the shooting that happened in the area. We're going to talk about what happened right in this area yesterday. We talked with an individual who said she was driving by heard some gunshots. We know that the suspect

apparently fired multiple times hitting four individuals, an adult male who was in one of the vehicles nearby, an adult female and two of her at least three children who were here on scene. Now, Webster himself then took off driving in a black Toyota Corolla. He was apprehended along I-25 near Castle Rock yesterday, apparently taken into custody without incident. He has now entered a not guilty plea and is awaiting trial. But even though the case is moving forward through legal channels, take a listen to the

district attorney. Nothing is going to please them. Nothing we do, nothing that's going to happen in the system. You know, the only thing that can happen is we can go back in time and none of this would ever happen. That's obviously impossible. And he's right. What this mother must be going through having her children shot one one boy murdered execution style in the parking lot at the dentist all over a road rage incident i i'm sure she's blaming herself in some way even though this is not her fault. There's the aspect of survivor's guilt, which could plague the other brothers and the mother for the rest of their life while they are short. Listen, Jeremy Webster faces 11 charges and could face the death penalty. Investigators say Webster followed 41-year--OLD MEGAN BIGELOW INTO A PARKING LOT IN WESTMINSTER LAST WEEK.

THEY REPORTEDLY ARGUED. THEN WEBSTER'S ACCUSED OF SHOOTING THE MOM, HER 13-YEAR-OLD SON VAUGHN, AND 7-YEAR-OLD ASA. A MAN IN A NEARBY CAR WAS SHOT AS WELL. VAUGHN WAS KILLED. AND NOW WE'RE HEARING FOR THE FIRST TIME FROM THE VICTIMS OF THAT SHOOTING. THEY'VE RELEASED A STATEMENT AND A FAMILY PICTURE. IT SAYS, QUOTE, THE BIGELOWS WILL NEED SOME HELP MOVING FORWARD. victims of that shooting. They've released a statement and a family picture. It says, quote, the Bigelows will need some help moving forward. They ask that you consider donating blood in memorial of Von Bigelow Jr. Seven-year-old Asa has a tracheotomy, so he can't speak, but they say he's more alert this morning. Oh, my stars. I can hardly take in what that family is going through. You're hearing Denver Sevens, Megan Lopez to Ashley Wilcott.

I don't know how you could ever deal with being there in the parking lot when your child's executed. Neither can I, and I agree with you. As a mother, you're going to blame yourself. You're going to go over it again and again and again and again in your mind to say, what could I have done? What should I have done? Here's the bottom line. At some point, as horrible as it is, you have to forgive yourself and be able to say it happened.

There's nothing I could have done to change the outcome. And I now have to be here to continue to love and support my children. And I can't even imagine what it might take to get through that as a mother. It's horrible. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.