Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DEVIL'S DEN 'KILLER' SUSPECT 'TICKLING LITTLE GIRLS,' RPT

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Parents of Andrew McGann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas say the 28-year-old suspect was a "sick pervert" and his "behavior was unusual." There were girls McGann would "tickle" at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mound, Texas. McGann would invite special girls to have lunch in his classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. One student says McGann told her "he wished she could be his girlfriend." Parents reported McGann's behavior to Lewisville ISD and Donald Elementary staff. but "everything got swept under the rug." Parents complaints led to McGann being placed on administrative leave before his resignation letter. Parent Lindsay Polyak suggests if McGann had been terminated instead of beingt able o resign, the termination would have been on his record and might have raised some red flags for other teaching jobs. However, since he was allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two other school districts and was getting ready to start the new school year in Arkansas. McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year. Former student Shaelynn Brown says the black backpack shown in a picture was the same bag McGann had while he taught at Sand Springs. McGann began teaching in the 2022-2023 school year at Donald Elementary School in the Lewisville, Texas, Independent School District. The next school year, 23-24, he taught at Spring Creek Elementary with the Broken Arrow Public Schools, and then for the last school year, fall 24 to spring 25, he taught 5th grade at Spring Creek Elementary in the Sand Springs school district. For the upcoming school year, he moved schools again, this time to Arkansas, where he was preparing to begin his school year. Joining Nancy Grace today: Danikka Harrell - Friend of Cristen and Clinton Mircha King - Attorney, and City Attorney for Altheimer, Arkansas; Instagram: @mirchac.king   Dr. Janie Lacy - Licensed Psychotherapist and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Author of "How To Heal From A Toxic Relationship: A Guide To Reclaiming Your Mental Health and Happiness," and Host of “The Resilient Professional” Podcast on YouTube; Instagram & Facebook: @JanieLacy Tom Green -  Former Chief Deputy at Washoe County Sheriff’s Office; Homicide Detective & Cold Case Squad Burglary/Fraud Detective (high-tech surveillance & covert surveillance.); Current Private Investigator and Owner: Nevada Investigative Services LLC, Dr. Kendall Crowns -  Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast --- launching on April 7th, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hi, I'm Master Model Builder Noel at LEGO Land Discovery Center Toronto, inviting you to build the best summer ever. Jump into a world of fun, creativity, and playful learning at the ultimate indoor LEGO playground. Explore Miniland created from over a million bricks. Join me in a creative workshop class. Ride Kingdom quests, enjoy a 4D movie, discover eye-catching build and play zones, and much more at Legoland Discovery Center. Get your tickets online now at legolanddiscoverycenter.com slash Toronto.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The Devil's Den killer suspect can't stop tickling little girls. According to Disturbed Parents at schools where he once worked tonight, where you're learning he was bounced from school to school to school because of inappropriate behavior with little girls, but no one ever fired him. That's how he ended up at the murder scene. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Devil's Den killer snared.

You have to look out for a white male suspect wearing black clothes. Suspect is going to be a white male. A white male teacher. Wearing black gloves, sunglasses, dark colored pants. Sunglasses, dark colored pants and a dark colored tank top I don't care what any defense attorney wants to tell you and we have

video of him in the last hours in court with his brand new defense attorney this guy was not insane when he allegedly stabbed a mom and dad dead on a family hiking trail as they tried to protect their two little girls from what? And here he is and here is where it all started.

I met four circuit first responders, state trooper police, assault, possible stabbing, Devil's Den State Park. Washington County received a call from the visitor center. Two children are there. They advised that their parents were assaulted. One was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing. We advise this just occurred at Devil's Den. Units still in route to attack the male and a female on Devil's Den hiking trail. And then took off on a small black sports car with tape over the plate.

And we suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing the suspect stab one of them. Little did these ladies know they were inches away from an alleged double killer. Let's take a look at the video. Notice that this guy, in front of God and everybody, just parks in the very front parking spot with the vehicle everyone's looking for, which later was determined full of evidence, including blood from the victims.

He saunters up the front steps. He's not even a little bit concerned. Again, this is from Lupita's Beauty Salon walking in. Notice how he keeps his face down. We've heard that from the ladies in the salon. They have repeatedly stated that. And as we discussed last week, he is in to get all that hair cut off the back of his head. Gee, I wonder why did it have anything to do with the fact that he was pictured from behind with his hair coming

out from under his baseball cap. This is the photo we're talking about. Now let's go back to the Lupita Salon video. As he is in the salon, law enforcement swarms the place. Oh, here he is, Santorini. And that reminds me, check out those shoes. Are those the shoes he wore during the double murder? In a moment, I'm gonna circle back to Tom Green, former Washoe County Sheriff's Office, about potential evidence off the bottom of those shoes.

Is there blood on them? Is there soil from the scene? You can never have enough evidence. And now I'm hearing in my ear, we have the video of the arrests. Let's see L.E. as they come in. There they are plain clothes all armed. The ladies scattering as they should. He still has his salon cape on and you see his hair is getting buzzed up the back. So he won't look anything like he did on that photo. And there he goes with no resistance. Again that is from surveillance video from Lupita's salon.

Yeah, you better run lady. She did the right thing. There you see undercover armed three of them and more out in the parking lot arresting the alleged devil's den double killer Andrew James McGann and what we have learned about him. We'll circle back to the video and what we're learning from it a lot. But straight out joining us at the scene, Nanette Sosa. She has been coming Devil's Den Park, formerly KNWA in Arkansas.

Nanette, thank you for being with us. What have you learned? For today, everybody here at the salon is still nervous. They cannot believe what's happened. And they too are trying to put together the pieces of why was their salon picked. A white guy walks into a mostly Hispanic hair salon. He's not a regular customer. This salon's been here for decades.

Family home, they know their clientele. And here he just comes in, does not even make eye contact, does not wanna sign in. They're worried already and they didn't even know about him. Hey, Sydney Suner joining me in addition to Nanette Sosa. Nanette joining us from the scene. Sydney Sundry, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Sydney, I've learned that he tried for two days to get a haircut to go to a salon, but he wouldn't sign in. He wouldn't give his name, so he could never get in. Finally, he gets to lapitas and they take walk-ins.

That's how it happened and it makes me wonder why he was so obsessed with getting his hair done. Guys, I haven't even gotten to what we have learned from previous school districts where this guy was bounced from place to place to place, tickling little girls uncontrollably, having them at private lunches, a lot. I want to get back to Sydney somewhere in the next So Sydney for two days this guy tried to get a haircut

That's what he's thinking about after stabbing a mom and dad dead Well, I think it's very clearly an attempt to change his appearance. He knew that Cops were zeroing in on his image and he needed to change his hair, maybe his clothing, maybe something about his face. He had cuts on his hands for goodness sake. It was very clear that if anybody took more than two glances at him in public, they might question whether or not that everyone is looking for. So clearly he was just trying to change his appearance. That's why he was so desperate for this haircut.

I think that's an answer. And it's so, so joining us formally KNWA in Arkansas net, he was trying desperately to change his appearance and you know, what is really scary if anything had gone sideways, he would have killed those ladies. If they had said, hey, you look like the devil's den guy, I guarantee you there would have been violence at Lupita's salon. Absolutely, and you don't know what weapons you have.

We knew about the stabbing, not to say he doesn't have other weapons, but coming in, not making eye contact. Everybody is friendly at this salon, you might I talked with, everything was going well. And then this man skulks in, looking down, doesn't wanna sign in and needs a haircut. And he only lives about seven miles from this salon. So whether he had scouted the area, looked around,

he sat in his car for a few minutes once he did pull into this front parking lot, right behind me. So it was thought out. He had some thoughts about that haircut. You know what's really interesting? I want to throw this to Tom Green joining us. Former chief deputy, Washoe County Sheriff's Office, homicide detective, and so much more. Now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services. Tom, thanks for being with us. You know what? Have you noticed that so many killers, well, perps in general, violent perps that I've

come in contact with anyway, they pick out those that are weaker or less cunning than them. For instance, and I'm about to get into it, but I've got to show you in a moment the court video that we have obtained of him in his first appearance. But Tom Green, before I get to that, they pick out targets weaker or less cunning than them. Think about all the little girls he was teaching in third, fourth, fifth grade, tickling them uncontrollably. He can't stop. Then picking out an unarmed mom and dad on a hiking trail when he has a knife. And there have been reports that it's similar to a Brian Coburger knife. We don't know that yet, but we're trying to

find that out. He picks on an unarmed mom and dad. Then he goes into Lupita's hair salon where there are just a couple ladies in there at that time of the day. One of them has on bedroom shoes. You know that you'd walk around inside on? A lot of people take off their regular shoes and they walk around in socks or slip-ons inside. My point is ladies, defenseless ladies, that's who he encounters. Somebody that is unarmed, somebody that cannot defend themselves, someone that is unaware, unsuspecting,

he is a hyena. He is a wolf, Tom Green, looking for the weakest prey. Well, I don't disagree. And we know that wolves and other predators look for what they think they can take. They don't look for things they think they can't take. And this very well could be that situation.

I mean, the way he was dressed in that photo doesn't look like you're out for a hike in 85 degree weather with 85% humidity. Guys, we have obtained the court video. Under our constitution, everyone being held behind bars, particularly with no bail, has a right within 72 hours to go in front of a judge and magistrate and be told what they're charged with. Let's take a look at this guy, the alleged Devil's Den double killer in court. And you are Andrew James Wigginham.

Yes. You're in front of me today, sir, for your first appearance at a considerable amount of future. You're in front of me today, sir, for your first appearance at a There's been a finding made that probable causes for this to detain you that was made by a judge previously. Let's take a look at that from the beginning. Let's roll that one more time. We've transcribed it for you so you can make out every word stated in court. Please roll it. You are Andrew James McGann.

Yes. You're in front of me today, sir, for your first appearance at a Arkansas World Cup and roll procedure. One of you got two charges in front of you. You have a Washington County Circuit Court moan. The bond is set at no bond right now with your next court appearance for August 25th this year at 7.45 a.m. That's going to be your right of way to the Act of Intention Center.

There's been a finding made that probable causes this to detain that was made by a judge previously. I saw our friends at Fox 4 Dallas and I noticed on the camera straight out to Tom Green joining us, former chief deputy Washoe County, that there were, from what I could tell, nine guards positioned around the courtroom. This guy, McGann, was very close to the judge. Very close to the judge. Most of the guards that I could see were armed, and I imagine they all were.

Some in uniform, some in plain clothes. So nobody knows what this guy's going to do. Yeah, well, you know, courthouse security is imperative, especially that, you know, clearly it's a small courtroom. He's charged with serious offenses. There's a lot of public interest. You don't know what family members are out there that didn't want to, you know, potentially lash out towards him, understandably.

So, yeah, courtroom security is going to be significant through this entire. Every court appearance he has is going to be met with a heavy presence of court security, both inside and outside. I'm not really worried, Tom, about family members attacking him. I'm worried about him attacking someone in the courtroom. Did you see how close he was to the judge? Absolutely. And as you know, if we, you know, if this ends up in a jury trial situation, he has to have

the perception of being out of custody, meaning no restraints, at least in this, he's gonna have restraints. This is what we know. He will have his formal arraignment within days. What is that? That means he will either have a preliminary hearing, which I doubt. That is when the state calls enough witnesses to show probable cause, to have him bound over or sent to the correct court, which would be superior court where felonies are tried. Or there will be a secret grand jury. What is a grand jury?

Those are voters from this jurisdiction that will likely hear just one witness, typically the lead detective in the case, who will summarize the evidence against the defendant. This is not a guilt phase, guilt or innocence phase. This is asking a grand jury simply, is there enough evidence in your mind to take this case to trial? They will more likely than not render a true bill of indictment and the case will then be assigned to a trial judge. At that point this guy, the alleged Devil's Den double killer, will go to

that courtroom, there he is, with his new haircut covering his face, he will go to that courtroom and be arraigned where he will be formally read his capital murder charges. Alleged double killer. Took off in a small black sports car with tape over the plate. And we suspect the suspect to have injuries. He took off in a small black sports car with tape over. Oh dear Lord in heaven, there he is.

And it looks just like the composite sketch. In the last hours we have obtained what is called the intake surveillance of the alleged Devil's Den killer. Let's take a look at that now. Here we see him, this is an aerial view. I'm just curious, are these the same shoes he wore at the double murders? Please hold on to those

shoes for Pete's sake. You are taking a look at video surveillance inside the jail where he is having as we call it intake. Tom Green explain what is intake. Well intake is going to be the process that they're going to, they're going to take his mugshot, they're going to take some fingerprints, but before all that occurs, they are going to make sure he doesn't have any weapons on him or any items of evidence that are obvious. Now in cases such as this, it would be common for the detectives, I know we would have, to take every item of clothing, underwear, socks, all of it, and book that into evidence and have that forensically examined.

But yeah, that is the process of intake is to make sure he doesn't have any weapons on him, to completely search him and get those identifiers from him. They're gonna ask him biological information, and where do you live, where are your parents next to you, and these kinds of things. Notice that every single person around him is armed, and they better be.

Now we're tasked with finding out what led to his arrest and what clues, if any, are left behind. But first, I want to go straight back out to Nanette Sosa joining us there at Lupita's salon, who graciously has allowed us to use all of their surveillance video. Nanette, what have you learned there at the salon? I have learned that this salon is so busy. For example, 13 hairstylists are on hand over the weekends. It's busy.

I was just clearing out that particular night where he entered. However, this place is busy. They are scared. All of them are scared, knowing that he was in this shop. Whether they were here is busy. They are scared. All of them are scared knowing that he was in this shop. Whether they were here or not, they are scared. You know another interesting thing and I want to go out to our guest Dr. Janie Lacey. And guys this video is from our friends at Lupita's Beauty Salon, psychotherapist and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions.

Dr. Janey, thank you for being with us. Many people, including myself, are struck by his demeanor. He seems so calm. Of course, it's one thing when you're uncontrollably tickling little girls on the playground and you can't seem to stop yourself, or you're having private lunches with the little girls without their parents knowing about it, or you're attacking two unarmed parents on a family hiking trail. That's an entirely different scenario than being in court surrounded by nine armed guards. But his demeanor, even in

Lupita's salon, he's looking down, he seems very quiet and self-contained. How do you reconcile the two? The demon that appeared at Devil's Den Hiking Trail and this guy. Well, the way that we reconcile that, Nancy, is that they learn to compartmentalize and they learn to operate in little boxes. So when we see him in this clip, there's not eye contact and there's probably very little communication so that he doesn't have to connect with the person who he's actually discussing talking to. So they

stay disassociated, they stay not connected and they don't less necessarily because you're looking at eye contact and you're engaging in you know conversation, you're connecting with the person. So this would tell me that he's learned to compartmentalize. He does not connect and that he keeps himself very guarded so that people can't necessarily read him or so he thinks. How was this guy apprehended? Listen, the Brink children and another witness on the trail helped create a sketch of the suspect. Other visitors to the park were able to provide photos to investigators helping with the description of the vehicle, a visitors to the park were able to provide photos to investigators helping with a description of the vehicle, a black sporty sedan. Up to 10 videos from

homes and businesses along routes in and out of the park providing a good description of the vehicle. With that vehicle information that became critical in identifying our suspect. So with the photos or the tips that came in with the composite in the photo, as the Colonel said, we received over 500 tips. As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it became clear that it was a Kia Stinger,

and we used that information to vet various owners, and our suspect was identified. This was our friends at KOTV, Sydney Summer joining us, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. Sydney, we are now hearing reports that the little girls, the two little daughters, seven and nine, didn't run all the way down the trail as we were first told. That they were afraid and found all alone crying on the trail and someone brought them down. This is after mom tells them to keep running and circles back to try and defend her husband from the killer. What do we know? Well as you said we know that the girls were found on the trail and someone took them

into the visitor center. And at this point, it's still somewhat unclear if the person that grabbed the girls and took them to the visitor center knew that their parents were attacked or simply thought that these little girls were separated from their parents and needed help finding them. So in the visitor center is when these girls were eventually put on the phone directly with the 911 operator and the full story started to come to fruition and police officers and EMTs were staged at the scene. The arrogance of this guy leaving his car parked right in front of Lupita's salon

when we're doing a manhunt trying to find this guy based on what they learned from witnesses at the scene a search warrant was executed. Listen we executed a search warrant at his residence there were articles found there that are consistent with being involved in this particular crime. McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year. Former student Shailen Brown says the black backpack shown in a picture was the same bag McGann had while he taught at Sand Springs. Hi, I'm Master Model Builder Noel at Legoland Discovery Center Toronto,

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your tickets online now at legolanddiscoverycenter.com slash toronto. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. We're waiting on the return from that search warrant. What is a return? When a search warrant is executed, everything that is taken from the home is written down on a return. That's where our friends say KOTV. What was on that return? Waiting to find out, but we do know the backpack was identified by children at a previous school. There's not only the car,

but I want to point out what was found in the car itself. There's the backpack that was identified by previous students. Nanette Sosa joining us there at Lupita Salon and Barber Shop. Nanette, what was, what do we know that was found in the car? Authorities here did find blood, traces of blood within the car. That is due to probable cause that was released. Other than that, as far as he was concerned, when he was sitting in that barber chair, his hands had cut slices on them as well. So they saw that and asked them to get up from the chair and they placed handcuffs on him and he was in the middle of the haircut when they still had the barber tape on

when they handcuffed him but it was definitely blood that was found on the inside of the car the Kia which was parked here in the front of Lupita's beauty salon. Arkansas State Police interview a witness who saw someone with blood on his face get into a black sedan and drive onto State Highway 170. A second witness says the car is a Kia Stinger. This became extremely important as investigators put out a sketch of the suspect and type of vehicle and asked the public for help. Law enforcement received multiple videos from homes and businesses showing the Black Stinger.

This man is obviously twisted. He gave her a bad feeling. He put off a bad vibe. Something is wrong with him. Hikers on that trail that came in contact with McGann, the alleged Devil's Den double killer, said he gave a bad vibe for many different reasons and in our business, you don't discount that. You don't discount a hunch. And they were right. They were the only ones that got a bad vibe off this guy. Why did he bounce from school to school to school to school before he landed here

at Devil's Den? Well, listen, parents of McGann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas say the 28 year old suspect was a sick pervert and his behavior was unusual. There were girls McGann would tickle at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mountain, Texas. McGann would invite special girls to have lunch in his classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. Parents report McGann's behavior to Louisville ISD and Donald Elementary staff but everything got swept under the rug. I really don't even know what to say about that quote swept under the rug and this is according to parents of students and it wasn't just that school he went from that school to another to another. I wonder who was the special girl that got to have lunch,

a private lunch in his classroom, while the others ate in the cafeteria. And I'd like to know what was said at those private lunches. I know straight out of Sydney Summer, joining us from Crime Stories, that he told one little girl, I wish you could be my girlfriend. Oh, honey, fur would fly if

somebody, a male teacher, told that to one of my children. I wish you could be my girlfriend or boyfriend. What happened, Sydney Sumner? And why was he never reprimanded? He just went from school to school to school. Did nobody have the backbone to file an actual complaint? Were they that afraid they'd get sued? It's very unclear why this elementary school teacher who apparently never met expectations and had this history of inappropriate behavior with female students was allowed to just move on from this job and start somewhere else. students was allowed to just move on from this job and start somewhere else. Parents were apparently very upset that

McGann was able to resign and just move to a new school district and didn't face any kind of consequences for his actions. Now that school district said they didn't find any evidence that he really was acting inappropriately with female students, but he did not meet their expectations and was allowed to resign instead of being fired. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Sydney, I'm not going to kill the messenger, but I find it highly inappropriate to uncontrollably like he can't stop himself from tickling little girls, according to reports. Joining me, Dr. Janie Lacey, what is nismophilia?

Well, nismophilia is basically a tickling fetish, Nancy. So most of the time people are using it, especially predators, because there is some type of sexual pleasure that they'll get from the actual tickling or being tickling. And there's usually a power dynamic that occurs. And what we'll see, Nancy, with predators, it becomes almost socially acceptable because

tickling appears harmless to most observers and this desensitization process gradually normalizes the contact. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, you got to start at the beginning. Nesmophilia is a sex

fetish where you like to tickle people whether they want to be tickled or not. To where the victim is, they're not laughing, they're crying, they don't like it, but you keep doing it and you can't stop yourself. Could you, it's a power dynamic, could you start that over again? Could you? It's a power dynamic. Could you start that over again? It was, you got me drinking from the fire hydrant, Dr. Janie. Too much information at once. Just slow it down for me. I'm just a trial lawyer. Go ahead. So when we consider nesulflemia, it's also considered a tickling fetish. And what we'll see Nancy with the tickling fetish is that there's pleasure that's derived

from tickling or being tickled. And we'll see that there's usually like a dominant submission dynamics, a power dynamic at play. So when it comes to our suspect and the power dynamic of him being a teacher and him tickling his students, we'll see it happen with predators because tickling usually appears harmless to observers, right? It becomes socially acceptable touch. And what we'll also see is this desensitization process that occurs, Nancy, because what happens is they gradually normalize inappropriate

physical contact. And they also can build trust. They're using playful interactions to gain a child comfort. And what we'll also see is a lot of testing of boundaries happen. They're assessing the child's vulnerability and also the adult supervision around. So predators will also will look at this isolation indicators, what we call it, where they'll determine if adults will actually intervene. So when we see a lot of these warning signs that have been reported, he had excessive physical contact with the children

and he was targeting specific genders, the young girls, and he created these special relationships with these students and the boundary violations in professional settings that was reported that some of the parents recognized as actually a grooming behavior. You know what this is telling me to Tom Green, a former chief deputy at Washoe County Sheriffs,

you're hearing what Dr. Janie Lacey is saying. And to me, this is giving credence to the theory that McGann tried to grab one of the little girls or both, ages seven and nine, typically one, to either molest them or something else, like the tickling, to feed his own sexual fetish. And the parents stopped him. That's absolutely a rational theory.

And we can't forget, Nancy, that the nine-year-old, the same age as the children that's going to be in the class he was about to start teaching in what? A week? Ten days out? What if she was going to be a student in his class? Okay, wait, wait, wait. Tom, Tom, that's important. Whoa, whoa, that's important.

I want to follow up with that. Dr. Janie Lacey, that's important because perps, especially molesters, typically have an age and a sex and a type. Here's an example, not exactly on point, but look at Ted Bundy. If you look at his victims, so many of them look the same for a long period of time until he got completely out of control and would just basically attack anybody that he could get close to. But at the beginning he would pick out one woman after the next as I recall seeing their pictures side-by-side all thin white females, dark hair, similar facially, hair parted down the middle as I'm just

recalling them off the top of my head. That was his preferred victim, whether consciously or subconsciously. And Tom Green pointed out the girls that age are the same girls as these victims, particularly the nine-year-old. Well, he said it, Nancy, that he targeted his preference and he showed excessive favoritism towards this particular age range and also he had access to them because this was the age range of which he was teaching. So it's by no accident in my opinion that he particularly targeted this this family that had these these young girls because they were part of his target that we have now have described by a lot

of different people through his history. Hi I'm Master Model Builder Noel at Legoland Discovery Center Toronto, inviting you to build the best summer ever. Jump into a world of fun, creativity, and playful learning at the ultimate indoor LEGO playground. Explore many land created from over a million bricks. Join me in a creative workshop class. Ride Kingdom quests, enjoy a 4D movie, discover eye-catching build and play zones, and much more at Legoland Discovery Center.

Get your tickets online now at legolanddiscoverycenter.com slash Toronto. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now is a very special guest. It's Danica Harrell. She is a longtime friend of the murdered mom and dad, stabbed dead on a public hiking trail for families trying to protect their daughters. Miss Harrell, thank you for being with us. Thank you.

When did you learn that your friends had passed away or killed? About midnight between Saturday and Sunday. How did you find out the news? Someone sent me a news article and I actually thought it was a hoax, so I started researching it. Now you've known them for a long time. Yes, since 2016. What was your reaction when you discovered they hadn't just passed on, that they had actually been stabbed dead?

It was very hard to learn that information. Could you tell us, Ms. Harrell, about the two of them? We keep hearing that they were murdered trying to protect their daughters, that the mom helped her two little girls get away from the killer. And then after they were safe, in her mind, she went back to help fight the killer off her husband. And in so doing, she herself was murdered trying to defend him. Does that sound like her?

100%, they were all about their family. Tell us what you can about them because they have turned into props for the killer. We just hear they were stabbed. What can you tell us about them? How did you meet? Describe them for us. I actually met them. They joined my co-ed volleyball league and she would bring her daughters with volleyball and it turns out we had, you know, two daughters that were the same age. So then that in turn led to us hanging out outside of volleyball and she was just as sweet as could be. I ran into some issues with childcare and she offered to take my daughter overnight while I worked out of town. Didn't even bat an eyelash and she had to keep her over Christmas one year and she went

as far as to make sure that my daughter had the same matching pajamas as her kids. So you became very close. We did. She lived, she's probably about half a mile from my house and I'd go on walks and we'd stop at her house and we'd just sit down and visit and she'd make some coffee or tea and our daughters would play outside. Any kind of a sexual perversion or sex fetish does not rise to insanity. And noting how he was dressed, how he obscured his tag license number, how he screeched out of there at a high rate of speed, all of that indicates pre-planning and guilty conscience upon flight. So even if he has a sex fetish with tickling little girls, that doesn't ride to insanity, does it?

He did have some knowledge about what he was doing and that what he was doing was actually wrong. So when you get to an insanity defense, that's something that his lawyers are going to have to really, really flesh out to the jury for the jury to buy that type of defense. But as you stated, him fleeing, getting the haircut, all of those things go to show his state of mind and that he knew whatever that he had done or whatever happened was wrong. It was unlawful. This guy bounced between four districts in three states. Listen. Parents complaints lead to him placed on administrative leave

before his resignation letter. Parent Lindsay Poliak suggest if McGann had been terminated instead of allowing him to resign, the termination would have been on his record and might have raised some red flags for other teaching jobs. But since he was him to resign, the termination would have been on his record and might have raised some red flags for other teaching jobs. But since he was allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two other school districts and was getting ready to start the new school year in Arkansas. Joining us now is Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County,

that's Fort Worth, and star of a brand new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue, esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. We know that he, the alleged killer, the suspect, McGann, was spotted by witnesses with blood on his face. We know blood was found in the car. We have been told the victims were stabbed. What can you tell us about COD cause of death?

We know the mom went back to try to protect Clint, the husband. What would you expect to find on the victims' bodies? There'd probably be multiple stab wounds on varying locations. Usually with stab wounds, there isn't just one. It's usually several, usually greater than 10. There'll probably be defense wounds, injuries on the hands or the forearms as the individual is trying to stop being stabbed and is grabbing at the knife, things of that nature. Probably the majority of the wounds will be in the neck,

chest and back area on each victim. When you say defensive wounds, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, can defensive wounds not only be on the palms of the hands, between the fingers, trying to ward off the perp from stabbing, but also on the exterior of the arms, when they hold their arms up like this, even on their back and on their legs when victims curl up in a fetal position, maybe even here on their upper arm as they try to protect their face or their internal

organs. Where else would you expect to find defensive wounds on the victims? That would be the majority of them is on my hands, forearms, even the backs of the arms. And occasionally when they are down, they'll be kicking or trying to block with their legs and feet so you'll see them on the legs. But usually defensive wounds are on the extremities, most likely hands and arms. Dr. Crowns, how long would they have lived, depending on the nature of the wounds themselves? How long would they have lived knowing that they were dying?

Dr. McCracken It depends on where the stab wounds are. If they're in the chest and they hit the heart or the aorta, the major blood vessel from the heart, they'll bleed out in a matter of minutes. If they're hitting the arms, extremities, the abdomen, it's gonna take a little longer. So, we're looking at, you know, a couple of minutes to several minutes, even 10 to 15 minutes, depending on what stabbed and how long the assault occurred. Dr. Kendall Crowns, we know based on what we've learned from law enforcement that they believe they've got a DNA match. Now, we understand they made the match from the hair taken from Lupita's salon floor to something found at the scene. Is it possible that the suspect got a wound himself from his

own knife at the scene? Yes, it's very possible that when someone's stabbing an individual, the knife can become slippery. And if it doesn't have like a cross guard on it, the handle slip past the knife as it becomes slippery and then get cut. And then they'll reposition and then continue stabbing. But it is very possible that they got injuries from their own knife during the stabbing. We know that according to at least one witness, the perp had blood on his face. We also know that he had cuts to his hand. Regarding the cuts to his hand, how would those cuts in any way aid an identification

and or a DNA match. The cuts from his hand would of course bleed and the blood itself would get on the individual's bodies that he killed. It would also get on the scene so that blood could then be used for a DNA analysis matching it back to him. I'm wondering if you could tell us, Ms. Harrell, about the dynamic between her and her husband. They seemed very happily married. They were. They were supportive of each other.

Kristin, the stay-at-home mom, and Clinton worked when she decided to attempt to go through the nursing program. And it's a two-year program, so it's very difficult. Like you're away for two years just because of how much time you have to put into it. And Clinton told her to jump in with both feet. Like, there's no reason we can't get through this. And exactly what Kristen did.

With Clinton's support, she was able to become a nurse. And then that just allowed them to do so much more with their kids. They started traveling more and it was just, it was, they built this beautiful life together. You know, a lot of people are looking for a connection between the suspect, as he is called, the devil's den killer, and them. I don't think they knew each other. I think that this was just a chance meeting on that trail. Do you have any reason to believe they knew this guy? I don't. I agree with you. It was completely random. I mean they were in Arkansas for what a month. If you look at this salon video we're showing you right

now from Lupito's. Notice he keeps keeping his hands when he's walking around in his pockets so the cuts are not visible. Only taking them out to explain how he wants his hair buzzed off. Leave it long in the front to cover his face but buzz up the back so it can't be traced back or compared to that rear shot of him in the forest. Dr. Kendall-Crowns and many people have argued that the hair on the floor of Lupita's salon cannot be matched DNA-wise to DNA at the same because there may not be nucleus in the hair. They're not from the root. That is completely discounting mitochondrial DNA found in everyone's hair.

Explain what is mitochondrial DNA, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, and how can mitochondrial DNA found in everyone's hair. Explain what is mitochondrial DNA, Dr. Kendall Crowns, and how can mitochondrial DNA give us a DNA match to blood on the scene? So mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is found in all cells. Myocondria are these little organelles within the cell itself, and they carry DNA matches that can be matched back to you. It's actually passed down from your mom. So it's DNA that you get from your mom. Now that being said, it's present in your hair, it's present in your cells, so it can be used to make a match back to the individual that they recover tissue from at the scene.

You know, in this day and age, I'm surprised the world doesn't know about mitochondrial DNA. But when you think of the nucleus at the end of the hair, it's the root. In the root, you have the mom and the dad DNA giving you a DNA match, right? You've got both the mom and the dad's DNA in that nucleus. But with mitochondrial DNA, that's not necessary. Mitochondrial DNA matches can give you matches statistically, such as one in four million, four trillion even. You don't need the nucleus of the hair. I want to be very clear about that. That's correct. Your information is accurate. Dr.

Kendall-Crowns, what wounds do you expect to find on the defendant and what traces do you believe he left in his own car and at his apartment? I would expect to see wounds on the hands from if his knife slipped and he cut his hands. Also there would be injuries if the individuals that were murdered scratched at his arms or tried to scratch his face, you would see abrasion type injuries on his hands or face as well. But probably you would see incised wounds or cuts on the palms of the hands mainly. Dr. Crowns, I want to be clear on another issue as well to avoid claims of contamination.

When a victim's body is taken from the scene, their hands are wrapped. They're covered usually in a paper bag, not plastic, and at the wrist it is contained with typically a rubber band. So over their hands a paper bag with a rubber band. Okay? To preserve any DNA, as you pointed out, under their nails or blood on their hands. Okay. Why is that done? How do you retrieve the DNA from under the nails? Because I imagine this guy was covered in scratch marks not just on his hands, but in other places, even though he had on a long sleeve, like his face or his neck, how is that preserved and why a paper bag versus a plastic bag? Okay, so let's start with the paper bags. We use paper bags because plastic bags create moisture.

Moisture can create bacteria or mold production, which then can create false DNA problems. So paper is breathable so you use that. You cover the hands with paper because that protects the DNA from the scene so it gets to the autopsy unblemished by anything that could happen during transport. As far as obtaining the DNA, we'll do a couple of things. Swabs with sterile saline on it or a sterile solution on it that's then rubbed underneath the fingernails to get the bits and pieces out. We'll use a sterile wood scraper to scrape the fingernails as well. We'll do saline swabs on the hands, the knuckles, the palms, and then we'll take the fingernails and clip them off and use those and turn them into the crime lab. If the individual is decomposed

enough, you can actually remove the entire fingernail from the hand and turn that into the crime lab for DNA analysis. I'm gonna look out for a white male suspect wearing black clothes. Suspect is gonna be a white male. A white male teacher. Wearing white gloves, sunglasses, dark colored pants. Sunglasses, dark colored pants. And a dark colored tank top. I'm confident that we have the right defendant in this case. And the public need not worry going forward. McGahn is facing two capital murder charges

and the prosecutor says he will be seeking the death penalty. That from our friends at Action Five News. Will this go to trial? Will they seek the death penalty or will it fizz out like Coburger did? A mother and a father dead on a hiking trail defending their children. We wait as justice unfolds,

and we will be in court for that arraignment. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.