Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Did evil boyfriend slit teen's throat before throwing her down mine shaft?

Episode Date: March 25, 2019

A Utah woman testifies that she watched her boyfriend Jerrod Baum murder two teens and then toss their bodies down a mine shaft. Nancy Grace looks at the bloody case with South Carolina medical examiner Dr. Michelle Dupre, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Atlanta juvenile judge and lawyer Ashley Willcott, and Crime Stories reporter Robyn Walensky. Grace and Walensky then look at the case of two Head Start teachers who allegedly ordered pre-school students to strip naked and stand in a closet as punishment. Dr. William Morrone, psychologist Caryn Stark, and North Carolina lawyer Kathleen Murphy join the discussion. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Lewis and Addison were kneeling and Riley was standing facing Bob with his hands tied behind his back. Riley asked if he could kiss his girlfriend and then Breezy said no and she started crying. You're hearing our friends at ABC4. That is Marcus Ortiz. What we know now is a Utah man, 41, accused of fatally stabbing two teams and dumping their bodies in a mine, admitting he made one of them watch as the other suffered. Listen. Then she says Baum appeared to be attacking Powell as they were standing next to each other. I heard Riley say

I'm dying and he was gurgling and that's when I realized that he wasn't hitting Riley he was stabbing Riley. It was the most horrible sound I've ever heard. Then it was Otteson's turn as Baum walked behind her but she remained tied up. And it seemed like he had his arms around her, but I'm not sure. And he said, it's okay, darling, and he went to her, and then I felt warmth on my leg. Okay, and what did you perceive at that point? It was her blood. Lewis says she saw Baum toss Powell's body into the mine.

Otteson was next, but her life was spared. He's got this huge grin on his face like he's enjoying himself. And he did later, he laughed about it. He said that was like lambs to the slaughter. They didn't even fight. Lewis says she felt threatened that she too would be murdered by bomb if she told police. But later on, she felt guilt and wanted closure for the families. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. To Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial. Robin, what happened? Well, this is beyond belief, actually. This guy, Gerard Baum, the 41 year old, they say that he's a Nazi. He has this large swastika that is visible on his check. When you look at him, Nancy, straight on, kind of in the nape of your neck where you would wear a necklace. He's got a tattoo of a swastika and then he's got a smaller one on his face.

And isn't this what the Nazis did in Nazi Germany, shooting Jews and some Christians and just throwing them into their graves? That's what it's reminiscent of to me, and that's what went down here with these two teens, 17 and 18 years old. And there was a report that the girl, the 17 year old, may have even been pregnant and still killed her and throws her into the mine, too, all in front of his girlfriend. Who did nothing. Talking about suspect Jared Baum, the victim's Braylon Otteson, just 17, and her teen boyfriend, Riley Powell, to Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, how would we know if Morgan was in fact pregnant at the time of her murder? Yes, Nancy. Well, as you know, we would do an autopsy because of the nature of death.

And in doing that autopsy, we do a complete autopsy. So we would investigate whether or not she was actually pregnant and make that determination and include that finding in the autopsy report. Well, what we know now is that two teens dead. And did you say, Robin Winskey, that their bodies were thrown down a mine? Yes. If you can believe this, he pushed, after he killed both of them, allegedly, he pushed both of them down a mine, and they were found 100 feet down. This is in Utah, where there are many mines, deep mines like this.

They were missing for 90 days. I don't understand, too. Ashley Wolcott joining me, juvenile judge, lawyer. You can find her at AshleyWolcott.com. How the girlfriend managed to stay quiet and not say anything. You know, that's what's astounding to me. This one just, two teens, I can't even imagine how, A, even if she fears her life why wouldn't she try to get involved before he actually kills them instead of fearing her life and going along with it b once she realizes i'm

not going to be killed how do you sit quiet on that it doesn't make sense to me it happens more frequently with horrific crimes than i'd like to believe, it doesn't make sense. But on the other hand, Nancy, thank gosh she came forward so we know what happened. To Robin Walensky, what do we know about a potential motive in the case? Yeah, that's the interesting part. When you hear something this horrendous, you know, what set him off? Well, the investigation shows, Nancy, that the girlfriend, Morgan Lewis, apparently had these two over the house and they were allegedly just smoking some weed, smoking some pot. And he was apparently a very controlling personality and didn't want her smoking pot or not smoking pot with these two, didn't want her talking to other men. So Riley, who's 18, and then you had Breezy, who's 17, and he doesn't want them in the house, doesn't want them smoking pot. But does that

mean you go and kill them? Well, what about asking them to leave? What about that possibility? Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, ashleywilcott.com. What about it? Why not just say, hey guys, you got to go home? Well, that's attributing rational thought to someone. And that's exactly what should have happened. And that's what happens probably 99 percent of the time. But then you have someone like this who's going to engage in this level of criminal activity. He's got a screw loose. My word, nobody else's. But he should never, ever see the light of day again. Right now, this is all unfolding in a preliminary hearing in court. Take a listen to what the family members are learning in court for the very first time. This is the first time Breezy and Riley's family heard Lewis recount those moments.

The details behind what happened to Riley, I know that was a hard pill to swallow. And what happened to Riley, it just looks to me like he was in some sort of fit of rage or whatever. And then when she said he was smiling and like he enjoyed it. At this point, they say this isn't about closure and the death of the two teens. They just hope for justice. We know that him being tried and hopefully the death penalty coming, that it's not going to be, it's not ever going to give us that peace that we're looking for, but at least it gives validation that we're going to fight, and we're going to fight for the kids.

And that's all we can do at this point is fight in their honor. Baum faces eight charges in the deaths of Brazy and Riley, including aggravated murder and aggravated kidnapping. You're hearing our friend with FOX 13 Utah reporter Lauren Steinbrecher. It's terrible, terrible to hear this playing out in a court of law. Now for me, Ashley, I would never have wanted, if I were the defense, a preliminary hearing because all of this gets out into the public and juries hear about it. They'll later be put on the actual jury. But if you do a preliminary hearing, you remember the one in O.J. Simpson about jumping over the fence

and doing the search of the home, you, the defense, get a chance to cross-examine the state's witness before there's ever a jury trial because the state bears the burden at a preliminary hearing. A preliminary is just really, is there enough evidence for this to go forward to a felony jury? That's right, Nancy. So the whole reason as a defense attorney,

I've never been a defense attorney, but I'm very close with many who are. I've done lots of trial coverage, is exactly what you said. If as defense, you want a quote unquote, free look at the evidence to see exactly what they're going to present in the preliminary and have an opportunity across, just like you said, that's exactly why the defense is going to do it. I

believe they did it in this case because they want to force the prosecution to show their hand. The biggest witness of the afternoon was Morgan Lewis, and this is the first time that the public was hearing directly from her what happened that night that Breezy and Riley died. As the prosecution laid out their evidence against Jared Baum, they called up family members, detectives in the case, and a medical examiner who explained the pair died of blunt force trauma and stab wounds including right across the neck. Then Baum's girlfriend explained what unfolded after midnight on December 30th 2017. Jared told me to get in the car and I felt I was scared and I listened to

him. Morgan Lewis, formerly Morgan Henderson, testified for three hours. She said Baum came home to find Riley and Breezy had visited Lewis which made him mad. I knew that something bad was happening. I didn't, it just didn't feel, it wasn't a normal situation. Lewis explained Baum drove them to a mine near Eureka. Breezy and Riley tied up with duct tape over their mouths. She said Baum started to hit Riley near the open mine. I heard Riley say, I'm dying. And he was gurgling. And that's when I realized that he wasn't hitting Riley. He was stabbing Riley. He knelt down behind Breezy and he took her in his arms. And he said, it said it's okay darling and he looked like he was

rocking her. Lewis says at that moment Baum killed Breezy then threw both bodies in the mine. I almost feel sick. I remember this feeling from court when I would be trying cases or investigating cases, the level of cruelty, of depravity is just overwhelming to me sometimes. And I remember that often in the trial, when the jury would want a break, I would, of course, never ask for a break. But if the jury took a break, I would go into the ladies' bathroom far away from the courtroom. I'd even go to a different floor. I'd go in the furthest stall and just cry. And I remember during jury trials, I couldn't eat a thing ever.

I would be so upset to my stomach. These details are so upsetting. We are in the middle of a preliminary hearing regarding suspect Jared, J-E-R-R-O-D, Baum, B as in brother, A-U-M. And the victims are teens. They're just a couple of years older than my children that are my world. And to hear them slaughtered like this and Baum laughs about how they, quote, didn't even fight back like lambs to the slaughter. I mean, Dr. Bethany Marshall, now we're hearing he's got a tattoo, the swastika on his chest and another one on his face. I'm just overwhelmed, Bethany.

And Nancy, one detail is that he cradled the teenage girl and called her sweetheart as he was slitting her throat. It reminds me of what we read about sociopathy in the literature, that there is a superficial, charming exterior that hides a cold, calculated interior. And I think what may have happened here is that Baum is one of these men who just wanted to kill. He probably had been thinking about it for a long, long time.

He fits the profile of somebody who wants to do what we call a thrill kill, meaning just the thrill of slitting somebody's throat is something that excites him and captivates him. And he comes home and these two teenagers are hanging out with his girlfriend, smoking pot. And there it was. There was this opportunity. Nancy, they could have been coming in and out of his house for a long, long time while he plotted and planned. I don't think of this as simply that he was jealous that they were hanging out with his girlfriend. I think he was thinking about this for a long time, and finally he had his chance. You know, to Robin Walensky, who is covering the case with me, Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst

out of California, Karen Smith, forensics expert, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer at AshleyWilcott.com, and Robin Walensky, Crime Online reporter to Karen Smith, forensics expert. Throwing the bodies down a mine. Now, my question to you would be, how do you get forensics off a body that has been down a mine? Now, this is in Utah, so I don't know that there was water in the bottom of the mine at all. I assume that it was dry. I don't know. And you know what?

My mind has been spinning with that question. You know, my job description includes flying in helicopters, sure, going out in boats, sure, we do that too. But, you know, spelunking down a mine shaft was not in my, sure. Going out in boats, sure. We do that too. But spelunking down a mine shaft was not in my job description. And I really don't know where I would begin with something like this. How do you take photographs? How do you collect evidence when you're in a harness? I have no idea. Apparently, according to the reports, they were about 100 feet down on a ledge. I don't know what that means. I don't know what it looked like. And our job as forensic investigators is to collect everything in its most pristine manner possible, especially for the medical examiner to do their findings. I don't know how I would do something

like that, Nancy. That's crazy. Yeah, and if you don't know, I don't know who would know. And Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I guess they sent CSI, crime scene investigators, down with harnesses to get the bodies, the decomposing bodies, and bring them up. After Bob's girlfriend, Morgan Lewis, finally comes clean and tells cops what happened, how do you go about putting all those bones back together, Dr. Dupree, and trying to get physical evidence? And keep in mind that this guy, Jared Baum, said that, quote, he felt bad because he never had to kill an innocent before. I want you to percolate on that, Bethany Marshall. He never had to kill an innocent before. Number one, suggesting there were other people he had to kill that were not innocents. And his compulsion that he had to do it.

Why? Because they were over to his home uninvited. Back to you, Dr. Dupree. While Dr. Bethany Marshall percolates on that question, Dr. Dupree, how do you put all those bones back together again? Actually, Nancy, as a medical examiner, we do go to the scene of the crime. We would be the ones in the harness going down that ravine or going down in that well to collect the evidence and collect the body. It is difficult. I have to paddle down the sides of cliffs and mountains and things like that to retrieve bodies before.

And, yes, we take a clean bag, we take a clean sheet, and we try to collect as much evidence that is surrounding the body as possible to get it back up to a place where we can then examine it and collect the evidence. As far as putting the bones back together, we simply laid them out on the table and you'd be surprised. It's not that difficult, especially when you have a body that has been tossed over a cliff and not dismembered, so to speak. Well, Dr. Dupree, not difficult for you, difficult for me to even think about it. Dr. Dupree, I was thinking back on Kelly Anthony and how they were searching for all of her bones. And they worked around the clock, under a tent, under bright lights at night.

There are 200, how many bones are in the body? 206. And you certainly rattle that off the tip of your tongue. I'm just thinking about how detectives found out about this. Apparently, Robin Walensky, they found a Facebook conversation between Riley and Henderson. And that led them to be suspicious. You know, what it boils down to, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, is that Lewis, Morgan Lewis, the girlfriend of this Nazi freak, got pulled over speeding and just like spilled her guts. That's how they found everything out.

Nancy, she sat on this for a long time. She did not go to the police, apparently became despondent, suicidal. She was in her car with an axe, I think, a knife, rope. Apparently, she was going to go to the desert, take mushrooms and kill herself. I don't know if I believe that story or she was simply speeding, but she was pulled over and then she, yeah, she spilled her guts, told the police that she was tired of listening, that the families kept searching for these teenagers unsuccessfully. You know, Nancy, I think Gerald Baum, Jared Baum is just a serial killer in the making.

I think you talked about that. He said that they were innocent. We talked about like sheep to the slaughter. What kind of pattern do we see with serial killers? Often they pick young couples, lovers. There's usually a sadistic, heinous quality to the crime. We know about sociopathy and serial killers that they commit acts of cruelty to enhance their sexual arousal. It's a part of the sexual offending pattern. And I think we can dress the story up as, oh, he came home, he was jealous, he found other people in his house. It happened. We have a serial killer who was lying in wait,

and these two quote-unquote innocents were in his house, and they were just the low-hanging fruit. And thank God he's at trial now, because I think he's one of those people who could be quite prolific, and there could have been other victims if he wasn't stopped. Well, this already qualifies as mass murder. More than one body equals mass murder. To Robin Walensky, Baum's defense team is going to reportedly challenge the girlfriend, Morgan Lewis's, testimony claiming she's not credible.

Do you believe her testimony will hold up? I mean, you got to think about it. My grandmother would say, you lay down with a dog, you wake up with a flea. Birds of a feather flock together. So why should i believe anything she says i agree with grandma and i do believe she's credible i watched her entire testimony i believe everything she says including one statement that he said that after he uh kicked riley the boy's body, into the shaft, he said, Goodbye, Riley, you piece of S.H. I mean, you can't make that up.

No, you really can't. And the fact that she says, the details, that's what I look for, Ashley Wilcott, when I'm trying a case and I'm trying to determine credibility, is is their story rich in detail? For her to say they were kneeling down on their knees and he said, it'll be okay, darling, and slit her throat. That's not the stuff you just make up. No, it's not. And she added additional details. For instance, she said after that happened, she felt something warm. She looked down, it was the blood. She details

the entire specific conversations between the boyfriend and the girlfriend before the boyfriend was killed. So I agree with you. Those are signs of credibility. Now, the next piece that the prosecution has is, I promise you, she's made more than one statement. I promise she's been interviewed more than once. And I know as well as you do that, that's another measure of credibility. Does the story remain the same or does it change? And if it remains the same, no reason in my mind to doubt what she's saying. And you know what? You pull up beside this guy at a red light. He looks like everybody else except for, of course, the swastika tattooed on his face. Jared Baum, this is step one. Preliminary hearing. God willing, you will rot in hell. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Police in East St. Louis are investigating a preschool where children were allegedly told to strip naked and stand in a closet. She didn't learn this anywhere. This is what she tried and felt like it would calm the children down by doing this, but it's obviously it's a no teaching manual anywhere. It's inappropriate and actually against the law to do this. The police chief says they moved swiftly once they heard of those allegations. Within a couple of hours, the teacher and her assistant were removed from the classroom of 20 kids. It's believed four of those children were victims of the punishment and were told to strip naked and stand in a closet for up to five to ten minutes as punishment. The chief does not believe the children were physically or sexually harmed.

Okay, if you say so. Forcing little children preschoolers to strip naked and stand in a dark closet as punishment? And that was to, quote, calm the children down? I wonder how that preschool teacher would feel if we stripped her down naked and forced her to stand in a dark closet. You think it would calm her down? Because it would not calm me down. It would make me crazy angry. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I guarantee you this much. I guarantee you the parents of those preschoolers had no idea that that was the punishment. I can guarantee you that. A teacher forcing a four-year-old preschooler to strip naked and stand in a dark closet is punishment. And not only did she do that, another teacher stood by and watched and did nothing. With me, an all-star panel, Dr. William Maroney, renowned medical examiner, author of American Narcan on Amazon. Psychologist, Karen Stark at karenstark.com, joining us from Manhattan. With me, Robin Walensky, joining me, crimeonline.com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the CSI, behind the Casey Anthony trial.

And Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer. Kathleen Murphy, before I get into the facts, what do you make of this? You're the family lawyer. You ever heard this from one of your cases, that children are forced to strip naked and stand in a dark closet? Never. And Nancy, you have the best listeners in the world, the best. We need to find out who we should call to make sure, A, these teachers are named and B, they're prosecuted. Yeah. To Robin Walensky, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life. Robin Walensky, how come the teachers aren't being named? I don't get it. That's a great question. And I don't know the answer. Normally in cases like this, we hear the names and we can find out the names. But in this

case, Nancy, they are not releasing the names of this 26 year old teacher. She'd worked at the school for three years. And then the other lady is 41. The one who knew about it looked on and did nothing. And I have to tell you, I agree with you. This was done allegedly to keep the kids calm and this was their punishment for trouble. It doesn't keep a kid calm. This creates anxiety. I guess so. Think about it. Robin, do you want to get stripped down and forced to go stand in a closet with a bunch of other people? Because I don't. Absolutely not. That would absolutely have the opposite effect on me. I would imagine that these children, Nancy, were far from calm when they came out of the closet. This is the kind of thing that creates terrible dreams and night terrors and something you never get over for the rest of your life.

To Dr. William Maroney, medical examiner, author of American Narcan, Dr. Maroney, not only are you an MD, a doctor, but you're also a dad. I can't imagine anything that would be make your heart race more than running a 100-yard dash is forcing a child to take off all their clothes and stand in a dark closet with other naked children. I mean, I bet their pulses were racing. I think the important thing about safety here is children can fall down. You lock them in a dark closet, they can get hurt. You take off their clothes, they can get hurt. That's the physical damage. But your previous guest just said damaged for life. These are adverse childhood events that lead you to distrust people.

It can lead you into drug addiction. It can lead you into separation anxiety. There is so much trauma from this little event that somebody would say, oh, well, you know, we were just trying to calm them down. This doesn't calm people down. This damages their spirits for life. And it's unhealthy. It's terribly unhealthy. And I'm going to shriek, but I know that much.

And Karen Stark, talk about lifelong damage. Karen Stark, joining us out of Manhattan, psychologist. You can find her at karenstark.com. Karen, as much as we try to tell children, oh, your body is healthy. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Sure, you're great. You're beautiful. You're perfect. And then as punishment, you make them take their clothes off. That's punishment to be naked. That's not good. It's awful, Nancy. There's something that's very sadomasochistic about what they did. This was more about the people in charge

getting off in some way. I hate to say this, but it's true on this punishment than it was about calming the children down. For the children, this is something that will absolutely stay with them because they do know about their bodies and they know that their bodies should be clothed. And so they deal with shame and humiliation and something they can't possibly understand. Can you even imagine how mad I would be? I would chew a nail in half if somebody did this to John David and Lucy. You would. You're not kidding. Take a listen to our friend at NBC2. This is Sarah Maki there in East St. Louis. This is a letter that administrators sent to parents late last week outlining a complaint here at the SIU Edwardsville Head Start

housed inside the Jackie Joyner-Kersee Center. Investigators say that four students were subjected to inappropriate discipline, forced to take off their clothes and stand alone inside a closet. That's my baby. Michelle Mitchell leaves the Jackie Joyner-Kersee Center her two sons by her side, as they always are. I can't do a daycare ever again.

Mitchell says she's had problems with daycare centers in the past, so she stays home now to take care of her kids. It's not worth it to me. I want my kids to grow up and have a full life without anything like this traumatizing them. SIU Edwardsville Police Chief Kevin Schmalz says his department started to investigate staff when a student told their parents about the discipline. They have now identified four victims and one young witness, but it is possible there will be more kids involved. I want to emphasize how brave these little kids have been coming forward and talking to us about these incidents. People always look at me like I'm overreacting. I'm overprotective with my kids. I don't care what they say no more.

I don't, and don't make a difference because look at all the stuff that happened in the news today. Because this case involves so many kids, the chief says that they're going to partner with child interview experts when they sit down and talk with the kids next month. And at that time, there could be criminal charges in this case. Southern Illinois University

at Edwardsville is in charge of several Head Start centers across the area, including one right here at the Jackie Joyner Kersey Center. It's believed this is where the incidents happened last week. Now, the chief of the SIUE police, Kevin Schmoll, told me they moved swiftly once they heard of the allegations. Within a couple of hours, the teacher and her assistant were removed from the classroom of 20 kids. It's believed four of the children are victims of the unusual punishment. There could be other victims, though. The investigation is far from over. The chief does believe there are no other suspects at this time. The teacher is a 26-year-old woman. Her assistant is a 41-year-old female. Neither is new to the program. The chief does not believe the children were physically or sexually harmed. He said the teacher admitted

to the punishment. He credits a young boy for coming forward and revealing what was going on. Very hard, especially as your teacher. You know, you have a lot of high trust for her and everything and to especially go up against your teacher and say something about what was going on, but it was the right thing for that little boy to do he's very brave by coming forward and telling his mother what happened now SIUE did send a letter to parents of the kids involved in this program and they said the safety and well-being of the children is their top concern they say no under no circumstances does the program condone or tolerate inappropriate treatment towards children, families, or staff.

You're hearing our friends at Fox 2 St. Louis. That was reporter Rocky Madden talking. So one little boy comes forward and the whole thing cracks wide open. This is the Jackie Joyner-Kersee Head Start program. Now, for those of you that don't know, Head Start is a program here within the U.S. in the Department of Health and Human Services that gives early childhood education at very young ages. It gives health and nutrition. It feeds the children. And this is for low-income children and their families, trying to give them a, quote, head start to foster family relationships,

help the children's physical and emotional well-being, develop a strong cognitive skill set to help them get into preschool and elementary school, learning things they may not have the opportunity to learn at home. This is for low-income families. So we know that these children are coming from homes where they don't have much, where they're trying to give them a leg up to get them on equal footing with other children they'll be in school with later on. And this is what happens to these children who are already at a disadvantage in life. They get treated like this. I'm so mad. I could chew a nail in half. Robin Walensky, not only that, I understand that these horrible people are put on leave with pay. I mean, how outrageous is this? You know, they call it the Head Start program. Nancy, this is a false start, an absolute false start for these children that

they will never get over. And you know what I want to know? I want to know what happened to the other 16 kids. There's a total of 20 in the class, four that they know how to strip and be in the closet. And what about the other 16? And I'd like to see, you know, if they would install a camera in this classroom. What else has gone on? I mean, who thought of this? Who comes up with such a horrendous, you know, tell the kids, quiet down now, put some nice calming music on and go sit in the timeout corner with your clothes on, not in the closet naked. To strip and humiliate you,

to Kathleen Murphy. I wonder about the other children too, but I've never heard of anything like this before, making the children strip naked and go stand in a dark closet to calm them down? It is criminal, and it is so mentally sick of these teachers, who may even be parents. Let's see what kind of parents they really are at home, too. Nancy, if that happened to one of my children or one of the little lads in my neighborhood, I would be up in arms, and your listeners need to be up in arms. Well, I mean, think about it, Kathleen. Why would we treat this with child victims differently than we would adults?

What if somebody got you, made you strip naked as humiliation, probably in front of the whole class, and walked naked into the closet? And being in a dark closet is, quote, punishment. They they'd be prosecuted you're darn right they would be so why is this different because they're child victims and as far as these two head start teachers a not having their names public they're still getting paid listen to our friend at at CBS4, Gilma Ivalos. An investigation underway after police say preschoolers were forced to strip naked and stand in a closet as part of punishment for misbehaving. Children would misbehave in the class.

This teacher would have them disrobe and make them stand inside of a closet for about five or ten minutes. This allegedly happened in St. Louis at a Head Start program operated by Southern Illinois University Edwardsville at the Jackie Joyner Kersey Center. Police say four students ages four and five were disciplined in this way and that this had been going on since early February but was just reported to them last week. The 26-year-old allegedly behind this incident has been teaching at the school for three years. A second teacher, a 41-year-old who has been with the program for five years, was put on paid administrative leave for allegedly witnessing the punishment and not reporting it. That's right. That is right. Two preschool teachers on paid administrative leave at a Head Start program located in Southern Illinois University.

A 26-year-old teacher punishing the students by making them strip down and stand naked in a dark closet. She had been working there for three years. A 41-year-old instructor given paid leave for witnessing it and doing nothing about it. Then time passes. Nobody said a word until one of the little boys told mommy. Why are they keeping these teachers' names a secret? We don't know. And a 26-year-old going on 27 and a 41-year-old teacher? I bet Jackie Joyner-Kersee has no idea that the head start named in her honor is doing something like this.

These children just four and five years old. A parent complained after hearing the story from her son, leading police to get involved. Is it true, Robin Walensky, there was a lag time? Nobody would find out about it until the little boy told his mom. Well, that's right, Nancy. Here we are, you know, in March already, past St. Patrick's Day, and this had allegedly been going on since the beginning of February. And I bet when they get to the rest of the interviews, they have not.

These parents, that is first taking place, some of these interviews scheduled for the month of April. when they sit down in the proper psychological setting with the medical professionals, you're going to hear more unseemly details that have gone on in that classroom. So to you, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina trial lawyer, what charges do you believe can be brought against these teachers criminally? Misdemeanor child abuse, unfortunately. It could be felony child abuse if there's a pattern of this behavior or repeated incidents of this behavior. I'd love to see some felony child abuse. It's mental abuse, it's physical abuse, and it should be addressed appropriately by the prosecutor. And Jackie Joyner-Kersee should be outraged that a center in her name is part of this. Take a listen to our friend Russell Kinsall at KMOV.

Two preschool teachers are on paid administrative leave. They are teachers with the Head Start program operated by Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, SIUE, and it is housed here at the Jackie Joyner-Kersee Center in East St. Louis. And I would be outraged. I would be appalled and completely upset. People are expressing outrage when they find out a Head Start teacher that should have been helping students learn is accused of humiliating them. Instead of protecting children, she's accused of child abuse. Children would misbehave in the class.

This teacher would have them disrobe and make them stand inside of a closet for about five or ten minutes. Police say four students, ages four and five, in the Head Start program at the Jackie Joyner Kersey Center were disciplined this way. As a mother myself, I can't believe they would let something like this go on. Police believe this had been going on since early February, but only learned about it last week. We felt that is very inappropriate and possibly there is some criminal actions, charges that could come as a result of this. Something that needs to be done to the teachers they should be disciplined as far as what's going on. The teacher accused of disciplining students by forcing them to take their clothes off is 26 years old and has been teaching at the preschool

three years. A 41 year old teacher who's been there five years was also put on paid administrative leave for allegedly witnessing the children being humiliated but never reporting it. You send your kids off to school or places thinking they're safe and they're actually not. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.