Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - DID GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY LIE?

Episode Date: January 8, 2024

June 16, 2008: the last day 2-year-old Caylee Anthony is seen alive. One month later, her grandmother Cindy Anthony franticly calls 911 to report her granddaughter is missing. Casey Anthony claims that a babysitter kidnapped her daughter. By October, when nothing Casey tells police turns out to be true, she is arrested and charged with Caylee's death, even though Caylee is still missing. On December 11, Caylee's remains are found in a garbage bag, dumped in a wooded area near the Anthony home. Eight days later, Caylee's death is ruled a homicide. Prosecutors announce they will seek the death penalty against her. At Casey Anthony's trial, her lawyer first made claims that George Anthony was molesting his daughter and that he staged Caylee's death to look like a drowning to cover up that he may have been abusing his granddaughter as well.  Those claims, made again after Casey Anthony is acquitted of the death, have haunted the Anthonys for years.  Now, George and Cindy Anthony agree to take a lie detector test in front of cameras for the A&E network special "Casey Anthony's Parents: The Lie Detector Test." What happened when he is asked if he had anything to do with Caylee's death? Joining Nancy Grace Today: Tony Harris - Award-winning Journalist, Host of A&E’s “Casey Anthony’s Parents: The Lie Detector Test;" Catch-up Viewing: “Casey Anthony’s Parents: The Lie Detector Test” is available on demand and to stream on the A&E App and across major television providers’ VOD platforms, IG: @TonyHarrismm John W. Dill - Personal Injury Lawyer, Winter Park, Florida; Author: "The Method: Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials;" Twitter/IG @JohnWDillESQ; Represented Zenaida Gonzalez in Defamation Suit against Casey Anthony Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in the new show, “Paris in Love” on Peacock George Olivo - Former FBI Special Agent; Administered the polygraph test for “Casey Anthony’s Parents: The Lie Detector Test” on A&E oe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Alexis Tereszcuk  - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories; Twitter: @swimmie2009  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why won't this woman go away? Taught mom Casey Anthony. Her parents have been through hell, hell, all because of her. And in the most recent incarnation of their living hell, George and Cindy Anthony take polygraphs. Polygraphs.

So if you had any doubt about what they testified to at trial, this should define for you the truth. Were they telling the truth or not? So their hell is still ongoing. They did this voluntarily. They were not court ordered to. They did it as part of a pretty incredible A&E special called Casey Anthony's parents, the lie detector test.

But can you imagine this much after? I mean, I really don't like talking about my fiance's murder. And I hate it when other people bring it up without me being prepared for it. Can you imagine the excruciating pain they went through taking this polygraph all about Kelly's murder. And remember, Kelly, little Kelly, was like a daughter to them because their real daughter, top mom Casey Anthony, had relinquished all responsibility of taking care of her own child. They are the ones that fed her. They are the ones that paid for all of her expenses, bought her clothes, made her meals, took care of her.

Not her mother, not Tot Mom, Casey Anthony. It was George and Cindy. Can you imagine what they have been through looking for Kelly, hoping against hope that she was still alive somehow, somewhere, some way, and then finding out not only is this beautiful little girl dead, she's been murdered and she has been in a trash bag in a swamp not far from their home. They would drive by her body every day. How do they still drive by that spot? But they do. I've been there and you have to drive by it when you leave their neighborhood. And now this. And don't you know, top mom Casey Anthony is sucking like a tick every ounce of press and media that she can gain from this. I'm Nancy Grace. This

is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. In case you've been living under a rock in a cave on the other side of the country, you must have heard this before. Listen. What's your emergency? I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff said, I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she's been missing. Okay, what is the address that you're calling from? 4937 Hope Spring Drive. We're talking about a three-year-old little girl.

4937 what? Hope Spring. H-O-P-E-S-P-R-I-N-G. July, Orlando. My daughter finally admitted that the baby's in the store. I need to find her. You know what? To Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Alexis, when little Kaylee first went missing, you and I covered this story together. I immediately went to Florida and began my own investigation

and pretty quickly determined that George and Cindy Anthony had nothing to do with the disappearance of Kelly. I knew it in my heart and my mind and my soul at the beginning. Do you remember us discussing that off camera? The first time we ever spoke about it, you told me that you believed George and Cindy Anthony. You believed that they had nothing to do with it. You thought that they were completely innocent and you 100% blamed Casey and only Casey. You said her parents had nothing to do with it. And I, I was not sold on that. I did not 100% believe it, but you never wavered in that. You know, just then when I was hearing Cindy Anthony on that 911 call, she sounds like she's hyperventilating. And just in that moment,

it got me so upset. I could feel my hands shaking. I was just trying to drink a cup of hot tea. And I remember John W. Deal with me, high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction, Florida, author of The Method, Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials. John, thank you for being with us. I remember the first time my hand shook in front of a jury. And for anyone that can see, this is what happened. I had my questions, as I always did, in my hand for the witness and I rolled them up and I pointed at something and I looked at the end of the paper and the paper was shaking. I immediately put it down. I never did that again. So even now, John Deal,

when you hear Cindy, can't you tell she's telling the truth? I don't need A&E to do a lie detector test to tell me she's telling the truth, but I have A&E with me, so I'd like to reiterate, it was an awesome special. So, John Deal, don't you get a feeling or you believe somebody or you don't believe them and you don't know why? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, with Cindy here and there, honestly, with George, when we took his depo that day, I spoke to him just briefly and you could tell he was wrecked by not by guilt but by grief and it's just a feeling you get so I've always I've always had that feeling that he had nothing to do with this at all Nancy I remember the first time I met

them in the green room at CNN hold on you're hearing Dr. Bethany Marshall she is a uh renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills jump in Dr. Bethany what, she is a renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills. Jump in, Dr. Bethany. What were you saying? I remember meeting George and Cynthia Anthony in the green room at CNN. And it was a particularly difficult period for them because they were really being skewered in the press and on all the shows. They had come to appear on the Larry King show. And I was a little afraid to walk into the green room where they were because they were under assault.

And I was worried about what I had even said about them on various shows. And they were lovely, gracious, kind, impact-centered people, the kind of people you want to have dinner with and share time with. Even while they were going through such a difficult time, they asked me about myself, and I'll never forget that. You know what's interesting? I'm going to share a story. Well, it's not a story. It's true. I spent a lot of time in Florida investigating this case,

and I spent a lot of time off-camera interviewing the bail bondsman that first dealt with top mom Casey Anthony. And I remember she was arrested on a minor charge to start with, like neglect of a child or something along, failure to report a child missing. And she bonded out. And there were a lot of restrictions on her bond. And she had a bail bondsman with her. She got home to the house. This is while Kelly was, quote, still missing, air quotey, air quotey. She walked in the house and the bail bondsman told me, two of them, a female bail bondsman and a male bail bondsman that heard this.

The first thing she said, she walked in. She didn't say, hey, have you set up a headquarters to find Kelly? What do you know about Kelly? What's being done to find Kelly? This is what I think happened. The first thing she said was, Hey, what's for supper, mom? Are you kidding me?

No. Two witnesses told me that. And this is what I was leading up to. Later on, when George would try to ask questions about Kelly, Cindy would go, don't push her. Don't push her. She's upset. Finally, George Anthony rushed top mom, Casey Anthony in the home, grabbed her by the throat, pushed her up against the wall and was saying, where is Kelly? Where is Kelly? Where is Kelly? That is not the behavior of a man who had anything to do with the death of Kelly. But wait, wait, wait. You judge. We're about to go into the lie detector test performed by George Olivo, who is with us.

And we're going to hear from Tony Harris, the award winning journalist. Can we have a real conversation about this? Can we have a real conversation about this? I love and I have loved your reporting on this and the way that you have sort of staked, put that stake on the ground on behalf of George and Cindy. But let's be honest about it. You know, there were a number of people in this country that to this day and this, the results of this polygraph

exam won't change any minds. I almost guarantee you 100% on that. But the reality is that there were reasons, there were reasons suggested why you should not have faith in George. And that was planted by who? That was, and you guys have got to, the attorneys on this panel have got to talk to me about this. It was planted by Jose Baez. The doubt that was raised about George Anthony was planted by Jose Baez. But there were reasons to have questions about Cindy, too. Cindy Anthony loved her, spent four days with her. It was in some ways traumatizing for me. But Cindy Anthony is

pure, 100% pit bull. And she dug in to find the information. You know this, Nancy. She dug in to find this information with one hand extended to everyone on the outside world that was trying to breach that wall that she had put up. She was going to do her own investigation. She was going to find out what happened to her granddaughter, come hell or high water. She extended the other arm and said, stay away. And that's why she was challenging the press and the people who were on her lawn. She wanted to find this out for herself. And she is an absolute pit bull. And you can see it in our interview. I spent four days with her. I think her determination, her single mindedness, her focus on

this is why we are where we are. And if Casey had not made these allegations against George, the one thing she knew that would trigger her mother, we would not have been in her home for four days recording a special. There you go. You are hearing Tony Harris, award-winning journalist and the host of the A&E special, Casey Anthony's Parents, the Lie Detector Test. And, oh, by the way, if you missed it the other night, it's streaming on the A&E app right now. It's also on Aetv.com. Now, first of all, Tony Harris, and you can cut his mic right now, said, let's have a real discussion. I resent that because every discussion I have

is real. And there is not a single person on this panel that I would ever accuse of subterfuge. They're all straight shooters, everybody. Well, there is Joe Scott Morgan, but we'll hear from him in just a moment. Long story short, this is a real discussion, but you're absolutely right. Even regardless of my initial thoughts, which I still maintain are correct

regarding George and Cindy, a lot of people actually think George Anthony molested top mom, Casey Anthony, and that he's the one that disposed of Kelly's body. You're right. There are a lot of people that really believe that. And you cannot tell me somebody on the jury doesn't believe it after Baez threw it out there that George Anthony had molested topmom. I don't believe that, but why else would they have acquitted Totmom Casey Anthony, which it's like a bone in my throat when I have to say that. But that said, let's hear them. Take a listen to more of Cindy in that 911 call. Do you believe her?

Because I do. How long has she been missing for? I have not seen her since the 7th of June. What is her date of birth? 8, 9, 2000. Oh, God, she's three. She's 2005. 2005. So it's Karen, isn't it? Karen, is that right? I mean, I understand. Can you just, can you calm down for me for just a minute? And I

need to know what's going on. Okay? I'm going to try and stop. I'm rude, so I want him to know. Joe Scott Morgan, I love ribbing him when his microphone is cut, of course, is an incredible professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's host of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. And he is not only a colleague, but he and his wife, Kim, are friends of mine. Joe Scott, you know, I'm about to go to the polygraph expert, Georgia Levo. But Joe Scott, you and I have been on so many crime scenes. We've interviewed so many witnesses, so many defendants. Do you get a gut sense at the get-go when you believe or disbelieve somebody?

And I think it's born of millions of years of evolution. There's so much I can't explain. Do you ever do that, Joe Scott? After all the people you've interviewed, you get an immediate sense of who's telling the truth. Oh, most definitely. And still to this day, you know, even though I'm no longer in the field working as an investigator, you know, people I come in contact with day to day, it is something that's quite primal, isn't it? We do get those feelings within our gut. And, you know,

look, I'm a science guy. You know that, Nancy. So I'm not real big on gut feelings. However, there is a sense when you inhabit a space with an individual and you're chatting with them, that you can pick up on these little nuances in their conversation, body movements, those sorts of things. And the consistency or lack thereof of a narrative that they're trying to put forward. And so in this case, I think you see this over and over that image that you painted just a moment ago about this grandpa wrapping his hand around her throat and pushing her to the wall. I'm a grandpa, too. I'd want to know where those grandbabies are.

And I don't know whether you're prone to violence, you don't support violence, or whatever the case might be when you're talking about a child and you're trying to elicit that information as a fellow family member. I don't know. Sometimes actions do speak truth. All that said, I think your answer was yes. Did you? Okay, yeah, Jackie agrees that all that meant yes, he does come up with an idea.

You can go and cut my mic now if you wish. Guys, I'm going to cut through, but we heard Cindy Anthony. I also don't know if I like Tony Harris's depiction of her as a, what did he say, a pit bull? Pit bull. don't know if I like Tony Harris's depiction of her as a rock what do you say a pit bull I don't know that I would compare her to any type of a dog because I found her to be lovely and loving and articulate and I think the country met her and George in the worst moments of their lives remember when they would come out and scream at the reporters to get the hay off their lawn well I think I would too. Their baby was missing. They had to suspect that top mom killed her or got rid of her.

It was the worst time of their life. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm totally willing to defend that description. I just look, we, we, she, she knew me from my, my history channel show. And, and, and so we hit it off immediately. But there is something, there is a switch in Cindy that flips when you dig into the details of this story. I guess so. The worst thing that ever happened to her, and you want to talk about it? It's called being a grandmother. Absolutely.

So, guys, we're going to actually play George Olivo polygraphing them. George is with us right now. Tony Harris created the Casey Anthony Parents, the Lie Detector Test Program, which was amazing, by the way. Now, but I want you to hear the stark contrast, the dichotomy between that day when Cindy Anthony calls 911. Now she drags top mom Casey Anthony. You know what? I wouldn't be on the phone calling 911. I would be at the police station three inches up their tailpipe to find my baby. But I want you to hear in our code 129, Jackie, I want you to hear top mom Casey Anthony. Listen.

Okay, so is that a vehicle stolen too? No, this is my vehicle. What vehicle was stolen? It's a 98 Pontiac Sunfire. Okay, I have deputies on the way to you right now for that. But now your three-year-old daughter is missing. Kaylee Anthony. Yes.

White female. Yes, white female. Three years old, 8, 9, 2005 is her date of birth? Yes. And you last saw her a month ago? 31 days. From 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name?

Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid. Okay. Can you give me the name of the nanny again?

Spell it out for me. Zenaida. Z-E-N. A-I-D-A. Last name? Fernandez. Fernandez. Hyphen Gonzalez.

I think the officers are here. The officers are here? The officers are there? Yes. Okay, hold on a second. Don't hang up with me yet. I need to... Okay.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, so has a vehicle stolen too? No, this is my vehicle. What vehicle was stolen? It's a 98 Pontiac Sunfire. stories with Nancy Grace. Yes, like female. Three years old, 8, 9, 2005 is her date of birth? Yes. And you last saw her a month ago? 31 days. From 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name?

Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid. Okay.

Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me? Zenaida. Z-E-N-A-I-B-A. Last name? Fernandez. Fernandez? Hyphen Gonzalez.

I think the officers are here. The officers are here? The officers are there? Yes. Okay, hold on a second. Don't hang up on me yet. I need to... Okay. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, John Deal, personal injury lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction.

All of that was a lie. And did you hear how calm Tot Mom is? She's so calm. She's more worried about her Pontiac Sunbird or Firebird or whatever her car is. 98, Pontiac Sunfire. Then she seemed more concerned about that than about her daughter everything she just said about zenaida fernandez gonzalez is a lie there was no such person in her life she had never had a babysitter ever that was a lie that she had made kept up in front of her

parents for two years so what was her explanation at trial as to why she made up the lie? Well, she never explained that. I mean, obviously, she just basically abandoned that. You know, in the depositions, she never explained what it was. But unfortunately, the thing about Casey, she would lie with such detail thrown in, like that example, Zoraida Fernandez-Gonzalez, whose name she apparently got from a ledger in an apartment complex where she was visiting. And that detail would throw the investigators down another rabbit hole. And it's quite possible and probable that she'd been telling those same detailed lies to her mom for years, and her mom being a mom wanted to believe her.

So that was part of the reason why it's obvious to us, hey, clearly she's the one who took Kaylee, but at the time, obviously the investigators and her parents were trying to give her the benefit of the doubt to find out what's really happened. And I remember when they would visit her at the jail, she would curse them out, scream at them whenever they would ask about where's Kaylee.

You know, let's get right to it. George Olivo is a former FBI special agent who gave the polygraph test for this A&E special Casey Anthony's parents, the lie detector test. And again, it was incredible. And I'm going to watch it again because I like to pick up on nuances of how people behave. And I want to support my initial theory that George and Cindy Anthony were telling the truth that they were not involved in any way. Although I do believe Cindy lied on the stand for her daughter, taught mom Casey Anthony, when she said she did the computer searches for chloroform and she meant to put chlorophyll.

Cindy is way too smart to misspell chloroform. She was willing to take the fall for her daughter. That's the kind of mother she is. There's no doubt in my mind she was telling the truth about Kelly, and I want you to hear now George Olivo, who is with us now, senior polygraph examiner, and he is polygraphing George Anthony. Listen to our cut 117. Did you knowingly conceal Kaylee's whereabouts? No. I mean, I didn't know where she was at. Correct. That's all I'm asking. So the question again, did you knowingly conceal Kaylee's whereabouts? No. OK, so you're struggling with that one a little bit.

Tell me why. Means because I was so close to her house. Yeah. That she was found. Right. But think about the times you went out looking for her. Yes. Did you know where she was that whole time?

No. Are you sure? I didn't know where she was at. Okay. That's all I'm asking. I do not know. That's all I'm asking you. Okay, George. Kind of pull it together. I just was visualizing the woods at the mall. I'm sorry. The what? The woods where she was found. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Alexis Tereszczuk is joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, you and I have seen those woods over and over and over. It's kind of a cross between swampy water, and it looks like woods,

but when you walk down into it, it's just swamp. It's like marshy. And people have thrown out old tires and trash, and that's where Tot Mom threw her daughter, because you described the area alexis teres chuck yes but i also want to say with george that he didn't know where she was casey's car stunk like death do you remember that's exactly what sydney said it's sorry cindy said it smelled like someone died in here little kaylee was not tossed like killed in the house and tossed in the woods all in one second.

Casey was driving around with her dead daughter's body in the car for so long that the rot of the body permeated the entire trunk of the car. So she was not there right away. This is a, like a Florida swamp is really the best way to do it. Kind of, you know, it has trees. It's not like a forest like you would imagine up in the mountains, but it has, you would think, oh, you could walk through it, but it's kind of a marshy bottom with the water kind of hidden under leaves. And anything could be back there. It could be trash. Florida, there could be alligators.

It's just sort of an abandoned area. But near their house, right near their house. Joe Scott Morgan joining us, host of Body Bag with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, how long would Kaylee's body have been in that car before the decomposition of the little girl's body began to smell so horribly? Just a couple of days. It doesn't take too much. Remember, the body was, according to what Dr. G had said and from what we saw at the scene or what was revealed that they found at the scene, she was kind of cocooned in a blanket as well as a plastic bag. And not to mention, let's just talk about the car, which I know is the target here.

Riding around in the Florida heat, heat speeds up the process of decomposition. Within two days, you would be able to smell a foul odor, particularly in that environment. So it prompts it. It accelerates the process very quickly. So just in that short period of time, and the fact that she could have been that numb to it, that she would just have ridden around with this child's body in the back of this car is kind of striking to me. George Olivo joining me, former FBI special agent who administered the polygraph test for the A&E special Casey Anthony's parents, the lie detector test. George Olivo, it's a real honor to speak with you. Thank you. An FBI special agent who is a senior polygrapher. Tell me how the whole thing went down, because I know George

nearly broke down in the middle of the polygraph. Yeah, he was very nervous, and that was to be expected. Just about everybody who comes in for a polygraph exam is pretty nervous initially. Most people struggle with that initially. They get in their own way and they overthink things. Much has been made about George struggling with the idea of Caylee's whereabouts. We had to clarify that. We had to work on that with him. He was trying to reconcile what he knew then versus what he knows now. The classic example of getting in your own way, something that most people do. George is no different than anybody else. But eventually he did pull it together.

He was able to focus and answer yes or no to all the questions. Here is more of expert polygrapher George Olivo polygraphing top mom Casey Anthony's father, George. Listen. Okay, you're going to have to compartmentalize right now. As you sit here right now, did you conceal her whereabouts? Did I conceal her whereabouts? I do not know where she was at.

Okay, so why are you struggling with that? Oh, man. What do you make of that, George Olivo? Why was he struggling? Well, again, I think he was trying to reconcile what he knew then versus what he knows now. It's a classic example, again, of getting in your own way. And most people do struggle initially to get out of their own way. We tend to overthink things and George was no different, but eventually he did pull it together and he was able to focus and answer yes or no to the questions.

Tony Harris is joining us, the host of this A&E special. Tony, do you think he was struggling because he's being forced to remember his granddaughter was murdered, rotted in the back of his daughter's car in a trash bag and then was thrown out in a swamp? Do you think that may have gotten him upset? I'm upset just saying it. Yeah, I mean, look, we've discussed it. I mean, this is, and you just said it just a couple of moments ago, this was them reliving the worst moments of their lives together as a family, as individuals, as a couple, right?

And so now George, who was, I just think, magnificent. I can't speak highly enough of the job he did. And now George is penning down on the critical questions, right? I'm asking them in my interview. You know, you can lie to a journalist. We know that that's almost a sport these days. But to sit down with George, with all of his experience, and be asked to answer the most pointed questions, you know, about this case is obviously dredging up all kinds of memories for him. And they're all painful, that he was able to pull it together at all with wires all over him and picking up all of his physiology.

You know, I first of all, I just think George did an amazing job. And for George Anthony to come through that and to produce the result that he produced and for George Olivo to then say, okay, let me double check this. Let me triple check this because it's that important. I just think it was just a remarkable examination and a remarkable exercise. And credit to George Anthony for being willing to do the thing that we know Casey couldn't, wouldn't do. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us, psychoanalyst in Beverly Hills.

Dr. Bethany, you've seen so many cases, but it just strikes me how Totmom, even now, is willing to let her father, father and mother who loved her so, so much, and I think still do, suffer this way and actually blame them somehow. You know she watched this. Of course she did. And Nancy, you know, she has the same disregard disregard for her father who she accused of molesting her, her brother whom she accused of molesting her, her mother who she threw under the bus, the same disregard for them as she had for her own daughter.

And the idea that George hesitated when asked where little Kaylee was, if he knew where she was, I understand that completely from a psychological perspective. He felt responsible for what happened to Kaylee. When you have a daughter who's that disturbed, who kills your granddaughter, I know she was acquitted, but in his mind, his daughter killed his granddaughter, secreted her in a swamp behind the house. And he's raised this daughter and seen every bizarre, disturbed behavior that he cannot control. He cannot remediate. He cannot change. And he's asked if he knew where his granddaughter was. Of course,

he's going to feel responsible. This is his daughter who did that to the granddaughter. So I think in his mind, it wasn't so much like where she was, but that he should have known where she was and he should have stopped this. Let's take a listen to more of George Olivo examining top mom Casey Anthony's father, George Anthony. Listen. So Casey has claimed that when she was young, you came in the room and molested her. So there's two parts to this test. They're like two sides of a coin. Both sides are equally important.

So the first side answers the question, did you do it? The other part answers the question, do you fit the profile of a person that would do that? Well, the pre-test interview is where we discuss all the issues, tell them everything they need to know. Wanna try and keep that foot movement to a minimum. Try not to move your feet when you answer. Don't try to convince me with your answer. That's not necessary.

Just a soft-spoken yes or no. You have to make that decision during the pre-test. Is this person suitable for testing? Are they lucid? Are they able to sit through this test and focus and pay attention? You called yourself a 10 on the personal honesty scale, and you didn't lie about that, right? You didn't lie about that, right?

Yes. I mean, I didn't lie about that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got me worried there for a minute. You know, when you have to ask, I can't even imagine doing this to my father, making these horrible claims about him as a way to save my own skin. Very, very disturbing.

George Olivo, you say that George and Cindy Anthony passed their lie detector test. Isn't it true you do three different independent evaluations? Yes, I did for this exam. Usually it's two. You get a secondary, what we call a quality assurance, someone to review your work independently without meeting the people, without being there in the room. They just look at the data and they either concur or, you know, there's a discussion. But I did three, three different independent validations for this test. And the three independent evaluations were

what? Well, of course, my own. I did my own evaluation where we put numbers on the diagnostic features. We're not throwing horseshoes here. We're actually using objective scoring scale. So I did my own evaluation. I determined that they did pass their exams. There's no deception indicated. And then the computer itself, the polygraph program, has an algorithm that evaluates charts and comes up with its own decision, just completely automated its software. It said that they passed the exam.

And then another individual that looked at everything, he also concurred. Guys, you decide for yourself. Listen to George. During a legitimate exam, there are no surprises. We actually go over every single question so they know exactly what they're going to be asked because if they're not comfortable

or they don't really understand what I'm getting at, then we're not going to have accurate results. You've been married to Cindy now for how long? 42 years. Congratulations. You've had an opportunity to run a con with Cindy an epic year. Even an emotional affair, right? I haven't. Okay. All right. Have you always been a 10 on the sexual integrity scale? No. Yes. Yes. Yes. No. I guess when you're separated, it doesn't count.

I don't know. So what does that mean, Tony Harris? Did he have an affair with somebody when they were separated? Is that what they're getting at? Yeah, you know this case inside and out. And there were a couple of points in their relationship where it was pretty rocky and they weren't living together. And there were issues in the marriage with financial issues and relationship issues and faithfulness issues. And then we get to the trial and there's this whole thing about George having an affair and that whole discussion. So, yeah.

So when Cindy hears that question and she's answering it for George, it's a pretty stunning television moment. So wait a minute. So they're in there together and she jumps in. Well, we're watching it in another room. Yeah. Cindy and I are watching George's exam in another room and she can hear everything. So when George Olivo asked this question, Cindy has a view of the answer, let's say. Yeah. And so she offers it up.

And as it turns out, that was exactly what happened. And George was telling the truth because they were separated at that time, to my understanding. We've been talking a lot about George Anthony, but what about Cindy Anthony? Take a listen to renowned polygrapher George Olivo questioning Cindy Anthony. Do you believe your daughter knows what happened? Yes, I believe 100% and I kept hoping upon hope that she would confess. And that's the only reason I've put myself through all of her drama and everything. Absolutely correct. Since June 16, 2008, Kaylee has been my number one priority

as far as what happened to her and getting her back. I lost Casey and my granddaughter that day, but Kaylee was always the priority. Kaylee's always been the priority. That's been my focus and goal the whole time is to find out the truth and to sit here and listen to her keep making different stories as it fits.

I'm having a hard time. I'm having a heart attack. I'm having a panic attack. I'm sorry. I take my anxiety pills. I'm sorry. No, that's fine. Take a deep breath, please. I'll take one with you.

We're going to get through this. I'm starting to lose it. I'm starting to faint. I'm starting to pass out. I don't know what... Rachel, we'll go down to the floor of the set. We're going to go with you. Okay. You want to go to the hospital? I need to breathe.

I can't breathe. Joe Scott Morgan joining us, death investigator. What is a panic attack? The individual starts to uptake less oxygen. Okay. So they're shallow breathing at that point in time. And for an individual that experiences this, one of the kind of consequences of this is that they think many times that they're actually having a heart attack. They'll have palpitations in their heart, rapid heartbeat, rapid pulse, and they'll become lightheaded.

And again, that goes back and they'll become lightheaded. And again, that goes back to the lack of oxygenation. It's hard to remain focused, particularly in an instance like this, because you can imagine this is rather high pressure. And then you couple all of that with all of the family nuances that are involved in this, and it can be trouble. To Tony Harris, the journalist who hosted this A&E special, what happened when Cindy had a panic attack? She took the question that was being asked and she was responding to a particularly stunning allegation in Casey's special. And she just, as was described a moment ago, the breathing became shallow. She was clutching at her chest a bit. And she just said, look, I just need to take a moment here because I need to take my anxiety medicine.

And that's the part maybe you heard in it. But she said, I need to take my anxiety medicine. She goes into the bedroom. George follows her. But there were a couple of moments of that. There were at least three moments when the weight of everything that was going on was clearly impacting her. She got really upset when she didn't think that George answered a question that I posed, that he didn't answer it properly or correctly or in as strong a fashion as he should have.

And she kind of lost it on George at that moment. There was a moment in the taping of this where I just said, look, we just need a bit of a break in Georgia. I need to take you aside. Because there was a pressure to this whole interview. We were together for four days and there was pressure building. Well, of course, they have been pilloried by millions of people as liars, as killers, as child molesters ever since Kelly went missing. And this is their chance to take a polygraph on video and prove that they're telling the truth. I mean, Alexis Tereschuk joining me from Crime Stories as investigative reporter. Alexis, you and I were there. I think we were up in the balcony watching the trial. Cindy would turn as white as a sheet up on the stand. I thought she

was going to pass out when she was testifying at trial. Because she was lying. She lied for Casey. Even though her granddaughter had been murdered by her daughter, and she knew it. She knew this in her heart. She knew she didn't do it. She knew George didn't do it. She knew George didn't sexually abuse Casey, wasn't the father of little Kaylee. She still got on the stand and lied about her

internet searches, trying to take the blame for the things when Casey was the one that was trying to figure out through the internet how to kill her daughter. Let's take a listen to what else Cindy Anthony says regarding what happened to Kaylee. Listen. But I'm sensing some tension after yesterday's polygraph. Sure. And it can change our life. They can change our life. This is serious. Okay. Well, you both ready to hear her allegations?

I want to go on as long as George feels comfortable. What did you mean by that, Tony? Are you ready to hear her allegations? What did you mean by that? So our setup was we were sitting in their home, in their living room, and they had not watched. What they said to me is that they had not watched Casey's documentary. And so they were going to watch her accusations in real time for the first time. They had heard from friends, from press accounts, what Casey was alleging.

But they were going to hear this from their daughter for the first time. And when they heard this, needless to say, it was pretty horrendous for them. Both George and Cindy had physical reactions to what they were hearing. Wait, what do you mean by that? They had physical reactions to hearing their daughter lie about them. Oh, well, this is, again, these are the moments leading up to a couple of breaks. I mean, real sort of emotional breaks for Cindy where she jumps up off the couch. Right. And and there are stares and side eyes and everything else that seem to speak volumes in those moments. There's an accusation and George is trying to respond to it. And Cindy's reacting to his response. So there was a lot of body language. The thing I love about George's exam is that it is gathering all of the physiology.

It is fingers moving. It is eyes batting, it is feet tapping, it is picking up all of that. And as I'm watching the exam, I'm saying, wow, this is the same stuff I was seeing as I was sitting across from them as they were responding to all of this, all of this nonverbal information. Hey, Tony, I was recently asked to take part in a special TV program about top mom, Casey Anthony. And I asked about exactly what they wanted me to do. I could not ask, ask my own questions. I could not control the editing. It was not A&E, by the way. They could cut out her responses. If they didn't like it, they could cut my questions. Bottom line, it wouldn't be true. What was going to be presented, I don't think, was going to be the full truth. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And I couldn't guarantee that.

So I would have nothing to do with it at all. Let me ask you this, Tony Harris. In any way have these lie detector tests on George and Cindy Anthony been manipulated in any way for the viewer? I will tell you what I know to be true from the bottom, the top, the bottom of my heart. I sat there in the room adjacent to where the exams were going on. There was no manipulation. There was these questions. They were very specific about the questions. George had two exams. Cindy had one exam. The questions were very specific, very pointed. And in in our review of it for the broadcast, George Olivo says, here are the questions.

Not only does he repeat the question in front of George and Cindy and me before he gives the results, we cut to him asking those very same questions in the actual exam. Okay. Now that's the kind of transparency we brought to this. I have no idea what kind of transparency, what took place in Casey's version of the story, but I can vouch for what we did. A hundred, 10%. I don't either, Tony. I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot pole. You know, I didn't spend my whole life fighting for victims' rights and trying cases and taking the attacks of other people. smeared by taking part in a quote special where the program is manipulated to show only what some producer wants you to see john w deal joining me high profile lawyer out of winter park florida this jurisdiction you can find them at john w deal.com you know top mom never took a lie detector that's true that was made public by the uh anyway never offered never took a lie detector. That's true. That was made public, anyway.

Never offered to take a lie detector. Never. Gee, I wonder why. You got Georgia Cindy stepping up and hitting a home run. But Top Mom Casey Anthony would never dare. She wouldn't get close to a lie detector. She would never get close to cross-examination either. Obviously, never sat for her deposition, took the Fifth Amendment, even though she'd already been acquitted.

So, you know, a lot of people would like to ask her some questions. And especially now, if you think about it, Kaylee would be 18, 18, almost 19, about the same age that Casey was when she had her. So that just shows you that it's a whole lifetime essentially now with little Kaylee, all of this going on and the damage just continues and continues from Casey Anthony. And remember when we found out that OJ Simpson took a lie detector, hey, Sidney, can you look up his death score? I think it was like a negative 42. And of course, they would never present that in front of a jury.

And typically, lie detectors are not allowed in a criminal case unless both parties stipulate to the admission of the lie detector before the test is taken. But that jury never knew Simpson had totally flunked. I mean, worse than a zero. It was like a negative. Just tell me, Sidney. Negative 24. Not just a zero, but a negative 24.

That's how badly he flunked it. So, I mean, has anybody on this panel ever heard that top mom Casey Anthony even took a polygraph, much less passed a polygraph? No. No. Nope.graph. No. No. Nope. Ever. No way.

So to you, George Olivo, did they pass? Absolutely they did. How much did they pass? Did they make a 70 or did they make a 90 or do you just say pass, fail? Well, the numbers don't really mean much unless you understand the scoring scale. And I'm not sure you just mentioned something about OJ Simpson. There's different formats in legitimate polygraph. And I guess for me, the selfish thing I'd want to put out there is for people to know that there's clearly a difference between legitimate polygraph and movie and TV polygraph. You know, you have to understand the difference between a real apple and a plastic apple.

Basically, it understand the difference between a real apple and a plastic apple uh basically it's the difference and so there's different scoring scales and there's different formats for testing you have to you know a good examiner has okay stop you're making my head spin did they pass it or not absolutely they did pass it both of them both of them passed it would you go so far to say they passed it with flying colors yes uh not that i would want to put you know a a a value on you know truth or not truth in terms of a little bit of truth or a lot of truth they pass they're telling the truth are you sure you're not also a lawyer because that was a yes no question well did they pass with flying colors yes no well yes yes it would be a yes okay then yes they did they passed with flying colors

and top mom won't even get in the same room with the polygrapher you know and again this is no offense to you tony harris because i really not only enjoyed seeing cindy and george again yeah but i'm glad they took the test i'm glad they took the test because so many people have doubted them. Of course, those people are still probably going to be naysayers, even though they have a legitimate polygraph test that George and Cindy passed. But I'm telling you, day one, they were the ones that were looking for Kelly. They're the ones that called 911. They are the ones that took the 911. They are the ones that

took the stand. They are the ones that took care of the baby. They did not hurt Kelly. But I'm really proud to talk to you, Tony Harris, and to you, George Olivo, because you have given scientific proof to what my heart told me on day one. But in the end, no justice for Kelly. And that is like eating a dirt sandwich. Thank you to A&E for what you have done for us. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. us. Goodbye, friend.