Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Did OJ Simpson confess to butchering Nicole Brown Simpson & Ronald Goldman?

Episode Date: March 19, 2018

Anyone who still believes O.J. Simpson did not kill his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman might have their minds changed by a stunning interview the former NFL star gave in 2006. The remarkable video was forgotten until it was rediscovered in an office that was being cleaned at FOX Studios. Nancy Grace digs into Simpson's purportedly hypothetical scenario of what happened at Nicole's condo the night of June 12, 1994. Grace is joined by death scene investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, lawyer Ashley Wilcott, and Investigative reporter Art Harris. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Orenthal James Simpson, O.J. Simpson, Seems like we never hear the end of him. He allegedly, quote, confesses to murdering his wife. Is that a big surprise to everybody? Saying he stabbed her dead after Ron Goldman tried to fight him when he went to confront Nicole about her alleged sex life. Oh, it's easy to come up with ways to trash Nicole Brown now that she's cold and dead in the grave. But now a tidal wave of anger has been unleashed after all this time Simpson confesses and it is caught on tape. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Joining me, of course,

is Alan Duke. Alan, you're there in LA weighing in on this. Nancy, the story of how this apparent confession video was lost for a dozen years is crazy. I was invited to Fox Studios in Los Angeles to view the raw video, even as they were still working to turn it into the documentary that just aired. Work on the original documentary was abandoned in 2006. For what reason, I'm not sure, but I was told it was forgotten about, lost, found only in recent weeks when they were clearing out an office at Fox Television. When they put the tape in an old machine to see what it was, they were stunned, but quickly realized how valuable and significant it was. And it took them little time to hire

Soledad O'Brien to help turn it into the show that was aired this month by Fox Television. Let's just kick it off. Take a listen to O.J. Simpson in his own words. Six uninterrupted minutes. O.J. puts himself hypothetically at the scene of the crime. The chapter, chapter six, is called The Night in Question. And you write in the book, now picture this and keep in mind that this is hypothetical. Hypothetical. Why don't you tell me what might have happened on the night of June 12th, 1994 and let's just walk through the night. Well, first of all, this is very difficult for me to do this. It was very difficult for

me because it's hypothetical. I know and I accept the fact that people are going to feel whatever way they're going to feel. They're going to, whatever way they're going to feel. You know, they're going to, you know, whatever. Whatever they want to feel. In the book, the hypothetical is... Charlie. Charlie. This guy Charlie shows up, the guy who I'd recently become friends with,

and I don't know why he had been behind Nicole's house, but it told me you wouldn't believe what's going on over there. And I remember thinking, well, whatever's going on over there has got to stop, right? So we kind of hooked up together, and, you know, I'm kind of broad-stroking this. We go over, get into the Bronco and go over. Let's just go back and do the details. Where did you park? I'm not going to do the details. You park in the alley.

You park in the alley. Yeah. And you put on a wool cap and gloves. In hypothetical, I put on a cap and gloves. Right. And

you reached under the seat for? A knife. I always kept a knife in the car for the crazies and stuff because you can't travel with a gun. And I remember Charlie saying, you ain't bringing that. And I didn't, right? But I believe he took it. Charlie took the knife? Yeah.

In the book. Yeah. Yes. So the back gate, you go. In the book. Yeah. Yes. So the back gate, you go through the back gate. Yes. And it was open or broken or?

I don't recall. Okay. I go to the front and I'm looking to see what's going on. And I can see that it appears, Nicole had candles all the time. She really did to keep her overhead down, I think. And music was on. And while I was there, a guy shows up. So Ron Goldman comes in the back gate.

Yeah. A guy I really didn't recognize. I may have seen him around, but I really didn't recognize him to be anyone. And in the mood I was in I started having words with him he says to you I just came by to return a pair of glasses Judy left them at the restaurant yeah words to that effect yes and and I don't know if I bleed it I didn't believe it it was pretty much immaterial because you know I was more concerned about everything that was going on, you know, and was fed up with it, I guess.

You get into a fight. Nicole comes out. A verbal fight. Got a little loud, and by that time, Nicole had come out, and we started having words about who is this guy why is he here what's going on and she says this is my house get that the F out of here yes and which I didn't like because once again this is the same person and if you read the book you'll see some things that happened in the two weeks leading up to this that were very very irritating irritating, you know.

And I think Charlie had followed this guy in, wanted to make sure it was no problem, and he brought the knife. As things got heated, I just remember Nicole fell and hurt herself. And this guy kind of got into a karate thing, and I said, well, you think you can kick my ass? And I remember I grabbed a knife.

I do remember that portion, taking a knife from Charlie, and to be honest, after that, I don't remember, except I'm standing there, and there's all kind of stuff around, and, um... What kind of stuff? Butt and stuff. I hate to say this, but this is hard. I know we've got to back up again. That's okay.

I want to back up. This is hard. This is hard. I want to back up to... It's hard to try to make people think that I'm a... I know. I know. I know.

You wrote in the book, I had never seen so much blood in my life. Yes. Covered. You wrote in the book, I had never seen so much blood in my life. Yes. Covered, you're covered, the scene. Can you describe it? It's hard for me to describe it, I'm telling you. I don't think any two people could be murdered the way they were without everybody being covered in blood.

And, of course, I think we've all seen the grisly pictures after. So, yeah, I think everything was covered, would have been covered in blood. And of course, I think we've all seen the grisly pictures after. So, yeah, I think everything was covered, would have been covered in blood. And what goes through your mind at a time like that? I don't know. It's like, what happened? Right. You write about removing a glove before taking the knife from Charlie. You know, I had no conscious memory of doing that, but obviously I must have because they found a glove there.

And blacking out. Have you ever blacked out before? Not to my knowledge. No. No, of course. Of course, if something like this would take place in anybody's life, if it were to happen, I would imagine it's something that you would probably automatically have trouble wrapping your mind around it.

It was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. Staggering firsthand details about the crime scene, which he says are hypothetical. You wrote in the book, I had never seen so much blood in my life. Yes. It's hard for me to describe it, I'm telling you. I don't think any two people could be murdered the way they were without everybody being covered in blood. Then you see bloody footprints and you decide to take off. Yes. Actually, I believe Charlie kept saying, we got to get out of here.

And in the book, you described taking off your shoes, your pants and your shirt and dropping it in a bundle. Do you remember that? Yes. And do you remember what happened next? Because what are you going to do with it? Somebody's got to get rid of, as you may have called during the trial, wear the bloody clothes, so somebody had to get rid of the bloody clothes. And you had left your keys and wallet in your pants pocket, and you had to go back and get it?

You know, to be honest, I think I know that to be true yes yes. And Charlie is hysterical screaming Jesus Christ RJ Jesus Christ and you tell him to shut up. He's in a panic he was in a panic and I'm telling him to shut up let's get out of here. So you get back in the car you've taken clothes put the other bond and go back and and they parked the block away because I knew the limo would be there and came across the backyard through the two tennis courts and you know came through the house so you went through the neighbors neighbors yeah he had a tennis court then I had a tennis court and you go into the house and what

happens in the house I ran ran upstairs to take a shower. I actually ran upstairs and took some of my bags and came back downstairs and put them out front. Joining me right now, forensic expert in his field, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Also with me, a sitting judge, renowned victims advocate, Ashley Wilcott. Also with me, Emmy sitting judge, renowned victims advocate, Ashley Wilcott.

Also with me, Emmy Award-winning reporter, investigative journalist, Art Harris. Art Harris, you know Simpson. You have covered the story forever. You were there during the entire drama. You know, some things never change, do they, Art? Nancy, what shocks me, people would come up to me like they probably did you and ask, do you think he's guilty? Well, after covering him for 24 years and hearing this confession, which I would call it,

they can't ever ask that question again. This is O.J. recreating a lot of the things that we believed and reported from other sources. He is telling us how he did the crime crime hypothetically, but it doesn't come off that way because he shifts into the first person. And it is really, really disgusting to listen to a convicted killer who once upon a time was making money off, would have off this book and off the interview. Out to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, when you hear it laid out that way, it addresses every question that was raised at trial. Weigh in from your point of view. Yeah, what we have, Nancy, is that this hypothetical that he

puts forward actually kind of marries up with a lot of the things that we see presented vis-a-vis the crime scene reports at the time and his presence there. And that's the key to all of this connectivity between him and the violence that was exacted on these people. Let's keep in mind, Nancy, his revisiting past history here, his DNA doesn't just show up miraculously at the scene. It was physically there. It was physically adjacent to other evidence at that scene, and it's quite compelling. So, yeah, it just baffles my mind as a death investigator that we're literally sitting here listening to him kind of narrate this event in this odd, bizarre way that he does,

and kind of embroidered with this bizarre laughter that he insults every now and then. Yeah, you know, Ashley Wilcott, the laughter is so bizarre is a good way to describe it. But the way, I mean, you look at him in the face, Ashley, and you and I have had so many lying witnesses on the stand and watch them looks right at uh my old friend judith regan and says charlie told him all this and with a straight face with a straight face and what a crazy hypothetical this so-called charlie no last name says man if you did you do you know what's happening over there i mean from simpson's home you cannot see what's happening at bundy okay you can't see what's happening at nicole brown's home so this charlie person comes in and says hey you know what's happening over there

and they get in the car and go over and now we learn simpson keeps his knife under his seat. Ashley. If I were the sitting judge and if this hypothetical scenario slash confession were being said in front of me as his testimony, I would find him not credible, insincere. The laughter, all the things that you've described, Nancy, you know as well as I do, there's no sincerity. He is not credible. I do not believe's no sincerity. He is not credible. I do not believe and would not believe this is a hypothetical. I think it's a confession as to exactly what happened. Okay. I agree with you. With me, everybody, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan,

Ashley Wilcott, and Emmy Award-winning journalist Art Harris. Listen to O.J. Simpson. Seeing her and leaning over and kissing her, can you tell me that story? Well, no, it was tough. I just remember seeing her there. And I still had so many feelings of if you're angry with a person upon their death, you know, if you're angry with somebody about whatever's going on in your life, when they die, it's not like that anger disappears, right? And because of the 911 call when I'm yelling at her about what's going on, it was almost like I want to say, I told you, didn't I tell you? Didn't I say to you?

You know, whatever the hell was going on, you know what I mean? So you still got those kind of feelings in you and you still are trying to deal with I'm not going to be able to say this to this person I'm never going to be able to change this person's mind I'm never going to have an effect on this person again what did you say to her when you leaned over and kissed her I don't know if I said anything to be honest with you I'm told that I that some person said they're hurting me say I'm sorry I just recall Judy Brown pulling me over looking me in the eye and saying to me, O.J., did you have anything to do with this?

And I know I told her no. To Art Harris joining me, you know, Art, you know all the players so well. Even after her death, he's still angry. And what it boils down to is he's angry at the thought she may be with another man. That's right, Nancy. He looks in the window when he goes over. He sees candles, and he is claiming, oh, well, she's saving money on lights. But he knows she's in there for a romantic evening with Ron Goldman, and the guy shows up.

And he cannot contain himself and really picks a fight and then blames it on Ron Goldman. Well, he got into a karate stance, and he was challenging me, and I had a knife, so I basically had to kill him. I mean, he says he blacks out. But, Nancy, everything they found at the scene here matches up to the police investigation that the defense tried to debunk. Remember? No bloody footprints, no DNA.

I mean, everything is now confirmed by his hypothetical confession. He's got blood all over him. He's got bloody footprints there that match the Bruno Magli shoes the FBI proved he was wearing. And, I mean, it's unbelievable that this fills in the gaps of all the evidence that was supposedly faulty evidence, Nancy. And it's now confirmed the glove. He admits he dropped the glove at the scene. So that means Mark Furman was telling the truth. You know, the witness they put up to try to scapegoat the LAPD, suddenly O.J. Simpson has just shown the defense to be a complete charade. And, you know, as we suspected. You know, I look back on all that time,

Ashley Wilcott, that I co-hosted Cochran and Grace with Johnny Cochran, and God rest his soul. And so often until I kept getting the same answer I quit asking him I would say Cochran you know he did it you know he did it every time Ashley Johnny would say the same thing he'd hold up both his hands like I don't know and he'd say jury acquitted him that was always his answer it was well practiced because people were always coming up to him saying that. So that was his answer. And it was true. The jury did acquit him. But I got to tell you, Ashley, it is a kick in the stomach, a kick in the teeth to hear Simpson say this, because for me, having been a crime victim, to think about the Goldman and the Brown family having to hear this after all these years.

I mean, it's nothing they didn't know, but it's just so incendiary, Ashley. Well, and even if it's something you don't know, once you hear the actual person saying it in his own words, that changes it. You may think, you know, like we know he did it, but then to hear him describe all this in his own words, I think if I were the victim, I'd feel like, okay, he had a great defense team, but even so, how did he get acquitted? How could he not be convicted? The evidence was there. Now we hear his words proving the evidence. How in the world did this man not get convicted? That's how I would feel. Guys, thank you for calling in at 909-492-7463. Let's go to the calls.

Yeah, my question is about the O.J. Simpson hypothetical confession. I'm wanting to know if I know the double jeopardy rule and everything, that he could never be charged again um with their murders but i want to know if there's anything else um he could be charged with if he was to you know actually say he did it so that's kind of what i'm wanting to know if you know anybody could charge him with anything else if he confessed thanks Thanks for the question, Ashley. Sadly, even with an outright confession, he cannot be retried because of double jeopardy. That's right. He cannot. In some countries you can be, not in the United States. This is purely hypothetical.

Hypothetical. I just wonder why he had to resort to such a terrible way to assuage his hate or something similar to that. I still don't believe he did it. I believe Nicole was tied up with a lot of people that do this, sell drugs. And I believe that they're the ones that killed her. Let's go back to O.J. Simpson essentially confessing, occasionally throwing in, oh, yeah, this is hypothetical, but clearly he is confessing to the night he committed a double murder. Listen. What was the hardest thing for you at that time that people, you write in the book that you couldn't believe that people thought you were a murderer?

It was hard to believe that. It seemed so easy listening to TV that week that it was that easy for people to believe that I could kill two people. I thought that my whole life meant something. I thought the type of guy that I had lived my life, being a pretty upstanding guy. I mean, like everybody, I had my faults. Like most men in my position, sometimes temptations of the flesh is there, you know. But for the most part, I've always thought I was a straight shooter. In any event, that was hard for me to accept that it was so easy for people to believe that.

Okay, is he insane? I guess the answer would have to be yes at this point because Art Harris, you know Simpson's character. You have investigated him for so long. You know he's deeply involved in drugs, cheated, beat his wife. I mean, how many 911 calls were there where he beat Nicole Brown? I never will forget that photo of her up in the courtroom with her face all swollen up and black and blue because of him. Those 911 calls where he's beating the door down to try to get at her and beat her almost sounded inhuman. That's right, Nancy. So now he's saying he's a pretty good guy.

What? Yeah, I what? And Nancy, I mean, the LAPD's district office nearby was almost on speed dial for Nicole's number because he was he was so abusive and violent. And, of course, then blamed it on her. This was the poster child for domestic violence. And he really created an awareness that we now are sensitive to. But this was it was horrific to hear what she went through. And then now we have him blaming her again. I know he did a tremendous amount of drugs. She was trying to get him to cut down on the coke, according to people I interviewed.

And he has been the one to blame her for partying and now, of course, blames her for having to do what he did because he caught her with another man. He had just bought her a Ferrari. He had just paid for her cosmetic surgery. And he says in this interview, she was looking pretty good. Well, he went over that night to quote, as he said in the interview, to quote, get some. Well, he didn't. And suddenly she's lying there, Nancy, in a pool of blood, blood he's got all over him. And, of course, the trial discounts all that. You know, another thing, Ashley Wilcott, that I hate about this is that even in death, he's dragging her through the mud, claiming that he heard through the grapevine she was having group sex parties at the home. That's what he says. And I know Jackie just turned around and gave me a look,

but that's what he's saying, that that is what he went over there to stop. He is a classic abuser, and he's narcissistic, because he thinks, oh, it's everybody else's fault, and everybody else was at fault, and I didn't do anything wrong. I still don't think he thinks he did anything wrong even in killing these two individuals. Out to Joe Scott Morgan. Joe, I want you to hear this next sound. Listen to Simpson essentially confessing to a double murder.

And yes, he has walked free. Listen. So I had run into her, which they tried to say was stalking because her and some friends were at a opening of a restaurant. I was there with like 16 people. So I'm like, if I'm stalking you, I'm stalking you with my crew. You know, we're all there too, you know. And I saw her and I went over and spoke to her and her group.

Then I went out to with my group to a party. But on the way home, I'd say I'll see if she's home because if she's still up, I don't know how late she stayed out. Maybe I can get something in any event. As I approached her front door, she has a window right along the walkway there. I can hear something, and I can see movement, and when I look, I can obviously see she was involved in something. I didn't know who it was with or what. And I hit the door and left. When you knocked on the door? No, I just hit the door. I wanted them to be aware that somebody's around and maybe they'd move or something.

That's why I didn't even look. I just hit the door twice and left. Alan, what happened to Charlie? Because now he has dropped all pretense of a hypothetical. I guess he forgot about Charlie and you know I'm using air quotes, Alan. Charlie is a fictional name and allegedly hypothetical

situation. There's a lot of speculation on who Charlie is. Charlie could still be tried, right? I mean, if we could figure out who Charlie is. Alan, Alan, what are you saying? There is no Charlie. What do you even? I said he's a fictional person in a hypothetical scenario, but it's probably real what O.J. is saying.

It sounds so real. I believe there's a Charlie. I really believe. And who is it? I think that there could be another person who went by Nicole's house the night of the murders, saw something going on, went and told OJ and then went with him. I think he's actually telling the truth. OK, Ashley Wilcott, there is no evidence at all of a Charlie. I don't know if Alan Duke is listening to the same interview I am. but at this point in the interview, he's not even discussing Charlie anymore. He forgot about him because he doesn't exist, Ashley. He did forget about him. And not only that, even if you want to think, well, maybe there's a Charlie, he is not credible. He is not reliable. Listen to his testimony. The fact that that Nicole is dead and he's talking about, oh, I want to go get some.

Nothing he has said sounds at all remotely credible, including a Charlie he's now forgotten about. Well, another thing to you, Joe Scott Morgan, you have studied the autopsy over and over and over. Actually, autopsies. There's no evidence that there was a second perpetrator. No, no, there's not, Nancy. I think a lot of people, and if I could just interject this, I actually sat across the table at a luncheon many years ago across the table from Dr. Erwin Golden. And Dr. Golden is the person that actually did the autopsies on Nicole and Ron. And I remember looking at him and thinking about the things that he had seen in the autopsy

room, much like stuff that I'd seen over my years and whatnot, and thinking this man of science is sitting there and he knows he knows what he bore witness to in that autopsy room and just thinking that he he's in an upside down universe because no one was buying for whatever reason maybe it was because of late johnny cochran this hard evidence that that we had and at the end of the day, that's what this all comes blade was drug across the surface of the skin. It's not like they were poked or something like this. Nicole's throat was cut so deeply that it went down to her cervical spine, Nancy. And it's not just once or twice.

It's several times. Can I just put it in language that everybody will understand? She had her head chopped off. Her cervical spine is your neck. She was decapitated. There was a layer of skin holding her head on. The cut went so deep through her, with such ferocity,

it went all the way through her neck and left her head hanging by the skin in the back of her neck. Is that right, Joe Scott? Yeah, yeah, it is, Nancy. And these injuries can only be achieved in one of two ways. Either someone was on top of her, And these injuries can only be achieved in one of two ways.

Either someone was on top of her, slicing her, or they were behind her, her head held back probably at the forehead with a knife being drugged across the front of her throat all the way down. This isn't a one-off circumstance. He, you know, he's sitting there arrogantly saying, you know, and this is what really reached out and grabbed me about the whole interview. Ha ha, you know, well, anybody that would have been there, we'd all be covered with blood. Yeah, you know you were covered with blood. He was covered with the blood of both of these people.

Matter of fact, he was super saturated. He was saturated so much, we've never been able to find those clothes now, have we? And he divested himself of these clothing because it was so, he was so saturated. He knows what happened, Nancy. He knows what happened. Take a listen to Orenthal James Simpson in his own words. Doing that 9-1-1 tape that everybody hears me yelling, I'm saying, I don't want these girls around my kids. And that's the only thing that argument on that 9-1-1 tape was about. I went to her house

and read her about Riot Act. I did what any father would do. And yet, you know, people listen to that tape and they meet this horrible person. Whenever they hear that 9-1-1 tape, can you believe he's yelling at her about this? Well, when the cops came, it became apparent. She said, I was yelling to her about this and only this. That's the only reason I was there, reading her the riot act, is I don't want

these people around my kids. Well, I mean, the obvious thing, Ashley, is if he had wanted to say in his children's life, he wouldn't have beaten Nicole. Black and blue threatened to kill her on so many occasions. They finally broke up and she was living with the children. There's a reason she had custody, Ashley. And it's not because everybody thought he was a bad person. It's because he's violent. Right. And for him to say, oh, I did what every father, no, he said, I did what any father would do

is insulting to fathers because he absolutely did not do what most fathers would do. To go over there and attack her verbally and again, make sure she's the victim of domestic violence in front of those kids is not right. Here we go. O.J. Simpson. I want to talk about the first time you met Nicole Brown. Yes. Where was it? It was right on ordeal, a place called The Daisy. It's a little breakfast place. And I ran into a friend of mine. He said,

let's have breakfast. And when we walked in, this vision turned to me and said, where do you want to sit? And I remember thinking, what a gorgeous girl, but I can't deal with this. So it was three days later when I came back I went back into the days and was having lunch with the owner and she came back in and I said man I would really like to take this girl out and he called her over and introduces and you know said hey this is one of the good guys and you were together from then on well yeah well that I had to take her before went to party had to explain to her that I was married. But I wasn't married. You know, it sounded like a lie. But after we talked, I think she believed me.

And we're together ever since. You know what's weird about that, Art Harris? He talks like, I would ask you, where did you meet Carol, your wife? Well, it seems like he's kind of glossing over the fact that he murdered her. Oh, yeah, this is a justification. Well, you know, she was this beautiful waitress, this woman who I met. And, you know, I finally got to hook up with her and we lived happily ever after. I mean, this is someone who in the middle of confessing later that he sliced her to pieces is talking and laughing about the first time he met her as he's this little infatuated young guy.

But in fact, she is his possession, and it explains why he was so enraged that she would dare be with another man after, of course, he'd beaten her senseless for years. This is someone who feels justified in protecting all his possessions. And she was one of his possessions that he's furious left him. O.J. Simpson now describes the Bronco chase. I'm going to go back to the Bronco. And if you can just give me some of the details of what what you said to each other and some of the... Well going there wasn't a lot of conversation but basically it was just... You had a gun? Yeah but it was in the bag in the back at that point with the pictures and stuff. The police like to say it was with a passport. I always had my

passport there. They said I had ten thousand dollars. I think I had like three dollars and something that changed. As a matter of fact when I I was let out of jail, after my trial, and they were giving me all my things back, all the stuff that was in the Bronco that was mine back, I said, where's the $10,000? Where's my $10,000 that you guys claimed that I had? What are you thinking? You're in the car. I'm in the back of the, still in the back of the truck, and I can't believe what I'm seeing because every time we go by intersections it was like where did these people get the time to make these signs go OJ and stuff and what was strange is is is I had been I was being uh depicted as a fugitive on the radio but from the side of the roads it was more people cheering I feel like I could use a shrink right now because instead of focusing on the fact that

he is on a slow speed chase from police after his wife, his ex-wife has been murdered and his children no longer have a mother and he's suspect number one, he's talking about people holding up posters. That's what his mind remembers. Art Harris, I remember that. But what I remember is him getting away from police, holding himself hostage with a gun the whole time. And he did not travel with his passport all the time. He took it because he was trying to figure out where he was going to go, but he never made it. He's rewriting history again. Nancy, that's right. In fact, but he forgets to tell us he also had that disguise, you know, that he might be wearing if he were to make it to the

California-Mexico border where he was headed. And he doesn't talk about the long phone conversation he had with the LAPD homicide detective Tom Lange, who was trying to talk him out of, quote, killing himself. Well, you know, we thought he felt so guilty about what he had done that that's what was going on. But here he is making light of that whole thing. We see what is really going through his head is his fans. If he thinks people still love him, hey, that's what he wants to hear. And so this is real disconnect, Nancy, with what was going on at the time that we both watched. You know, Ashley Wolcott, it's just the same scenario. It doesn't really change.

The person goes on the run. They have a big wad of cash. They have a disguise. I'm glad you reminded me of that art because I'd forgotten that detail. Got a gun, money, passport, disguise. When a cop comes up behind me, I pull over because I don't want to make it worse. I also don't want to get shot. I don't want to get beat up. You do what the cop tells you to do. He was running from the cops. Bam. That's what was happening. Yep. And he almost sounded like he got off on it because he was like,

oh, I saw all these people cheering. It was great. And so keep in mind, though, we can't attribute rational thought to this man who has murdered two people. So he was running from the cop. Okay. Take a listen to this. I loved her to no end, you know, and always loved her. You know, I, I think what happened, it became reverse of what she said to me when she wanted a divorce. I loved her, but I didn't like her. I wasn't in love with her. That's what she had said to me to get a divorce. And I kind of figured that's where we were at at the time of her death. I loved her, but I wasn't in love with her, you know. And to some degree, I didn't really like her. But I didn't like, I thought she was losing herself. Did you feel lost?

In many ways. You know, it's almost like you were, Ron and Nicole were physically dead, and it's almost like they killed me. Who I was was attacked and murdered also in that short period of time. And once again, to this day, it bugs me that it seems that people wanted me to be guilty. That really, really bothers me. And even sometimes it's dead. I'm a little calcified to it all the day. My friends and family and I,

because of so many stories in the tabloids that are not true, we just live with it. I loved her to no end. And always loved her. And yes, O.J. Simpson's guilty. I knew that when it happened back in the 90s. What a joke.

There must have been other ways that he could have addressed his problem. And that resulted, as I said, to murder. Did you feel lost? In many ways. You know, it's almost like you were, Ron and Nicole were physically dead. And it's almost like they killed me. Who I was, was attacked and murdered also. Did I just hear that, Art Harris? They killed him. He feels like they killed me. Who I was was attacked and murdered also. Did I just hear that, Art Harris? They killed him. He feels like they killed him. That's right, Nancy.

This is unbelievable, but it explains why for so long he's able to distance himself in his mind from the horror that he did to these two people. He's a sociopath who can rationalize anything he does by compartmentalizing the murders. And, you know, as I write on my website, ArtHarris.com, that now he can no longer run, Nancy. Every time he looks in the mirror after we hear this confession, he's going to look in the mirror and see the killer staring back at him. But, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, you and I have handled so many murder cases.

I swear I don't think he understands. I don't think he looks in the mirror and sees a double killer. I think he looks in the mirror and sees a superstar. Yeah, I'd agree. I think that, you know, playing pop psychologist here, I think he's, you know, a narcissistic, you know, person that views himself as above all of this, you know, all of these tawdry details. They're not tawdry details. These are two people that he slaughtered. And, you know, what you were just discussing with Art, this idea that, you know, they killed him. What level of arrogance does that take? But you know, you see this repeated

over and over again, and that's what brings us back home, Nancy, is that O.J. Simpson is no different than anybody else we've ever investigated. It's just that he's got a higher profile and he's gotten away with it. You know, a lot of people don't have the advantages that he had. You know, they can't get million-dollar dream teams and the best forensic scientists in the world to come in and talk on their behalf. At the end of the day, he's a thug. That's what it comes down to. Take a listen to Simpson in his confession. When she

asked for the separation in 1992, you write in the book, I felt like I'd been kicked. It was shocking. It was absolutely shocking. Her and her mother had been to New York a few weeks before that. She had talked about how happy she was. She had gotten her body completely back. She was looking great. She was finally wearing all her fancy stuff well i realized no it was because she had a boyfriend i didn't know that's the time of course it hurts i didn't think it would happen and for two or three months i pursued her to no end uh until i saw her with another guy and at that point what are you going to do a girl's with another guy i mean you'd be an idiot you know he's still talking about her being with other people i mean art harris ashley wilcott joe sky morgan let me throw this to ashley how many beatings does it take until nicole finally

decided to divorce she didn't divorce him to date other people she divorced him because he wouldn't stop beating her and what's so sad in this case is that's a typical victim right once you become a victim of domestic violence it is very hard to walk away to know how to escape because of the cycle of domestic violence when you are a victim. So here she did things to protect herself, which can be very hard to do. She got a divorce. She walked away. She tried to get away from his abusive, abusive fist. And yet he comes after her and kills her. So it's really a tragic story. And Nancy, please don't make me listen to his laugh anymore it is so sadistic and throughout this entire interview does that laugh just not get right under your skin you just want

to reach out and strangle him you know i i felt that when he starts laughing and we're talking about a double murder um and and i guess it's over the years been airbrushed and edited and produced. But a murder scene, much less a double murder scene of this nature, it's really hard for me to describe having been to so many murder scenes. First of all, this is not a asphyxiation. This is a bloodletting in the front yard there was so much blood cops were sopping through it there were bloody footprints which of course matched up to his shoes everywhere the victim's bodies had been lying out there for a period of time. She had essentially been decapitated. It was awful.

It was a terrible, sticky, smelly, filthy murder scene with two young people dead. You know, I always believed Art Harris, and you know a lot more about this aspect than I do, that he was drugged out of his gourd that night. Well, Nancy, he had been doing probably cocaine and had been drinking, as he often did, and he felt he was in rage. This was such a rage killing. He could not have Nicole anymore, and so he probably snapped and did not want anyone else to have her either. She was his possession, as so many abusers feel about the women they beat and ultimately often kill. This is a man who does it and then justifies what he's done and goes home and takes a shower, as he says in part of this interview. And his friend, somebody gets rid of those bloody clothes we never see again. So this is someone who killed his wonderful wife and got away with it because he had and could afford the best lawyer's money can buy.

I mean, the thing that got me, Nancy, is the blood. There was so much of it. So how did DNA not work? Well, as I write in my blog, artharris.com, that's because they bored the jury to death with the probability of DNA. And they picked a jury that didn't have any math, high school math or science. They knocked out anyone who, you know, had any knowledge and could apply it

to this bloody crime scene. And that's how he got off. Listen to O.J. Simpson talking about the night Nicole and Ron were murdered. In the book, the hypothetical is... Charlie. Charlie. This guy Charlie shows up, the guy who I'd recently become friends with,

and I don't know why he had been by Nicole's house, but it told me you wouldn't believe what's going on over there. And I remember thinking, well, whatever's going on over there and uh and i remember thinking well whatever's going over there's got to stop right so we kind of hooked up together and uh you know i'm kind of broad stroking this we go over get into bronco and go over it let's just go back and do the details where Where did you park? I'm not going to do the details. You parked... In the hypothetical, in the alley. You parked in the alley. Yeah. And you put on

a wool cap and gloves. In the hypothetical, I put on a cap and gloves. Right. Yeah. And you reached under the seat for... A knife. I always kept a knife in the car for the crazies and stuff

because you can't travel with a gun. And I remember Charlie saying, you ain't bringing that, and I didn't, right? But I believe he took it. Charlie took the knife? Yeah, in the book. Yeah. Yes.

So the back gate, you go through the back gate. Yes. And it was gate, you go through the back gate. Yes. And it was open or broken or? I don't recall. Okay. I go to the front and I'm looking to see what's going on. And I can see that it appears, Nicole had candles all the time. She really did to keep her overhead down, I think.

And music was on. And while I was there, a guy shows up. So Ron Goldman comes in the back gate. Yeah. A guy I really didn't recognize. I may have seen him around, but I really didn't recognize him to be anyone. And in the mood I was in, I started having words with him. He says to you, I just came by to return a pair of glasses.

Judy left them at the restaurant. Yeah, words to that effect, yes. And he was all... I don't know if I believed it or didn't believe it. It was pretty much immaterial because, you know, I was more concerned about everything that was going on, you know, and was fed up with it i guess and uh you get into a fight nicole comes out verbal a verbal fight got a little loud and

by that time uh uh nicole had come out and we started having words about who is this guy why is he here what's going on and she says this is my house, get the F out of here. Yes, which I didn't like because, once again, this is the same person. And if you read the book, you'll see some things that happened in the two weeks leading up to this that were very, very irritating. And I think Charlie had followed this guy in, wanted to make sure it was no problem, and he brought the knife. As things got heated, I just remember Nicole fell and hurt herself.

And this guy kind of got into a karate thing, and I said, well, you think you can kick my ass? And I remember I grabbed a knife. I do remember that portion, taking a knife from Charlie and to be honest after that I don't remember except I'm standing there and there's all kind of stuff around and um what kind of stuff but and stuff around again we were flooded with calls about whether Simpson could be retried. Even in light of this confession, the answer is no under our jurisprudence system. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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