Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Did pervs try to lure Little Leaguer at 7-Eleven for candy, then shoot boy dead? Who murdered little Chuckie Mauk?

Episode Date: March 9, 2020

Just after supper, Chuckie Mauk asks permission to ride his bike to the store to get candy. He never comes home. The 13-year-old boy is seen talking to someone in a white car and is then found shot in the head, still clutching the bubble gum he had bought. What happened to Chuckie Mauk?Joining Nancy Grace today: Cathy Miller- Chuckie's mom Jim Elliott - attorney with Butler Snow, legal counsel for various Georgia municipalities and other governmental entities. www.butlersnow.com Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, www.drbethanymarshall.com Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Director of Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Levi Page - Investigative reporter CrimeOnline  Tip Line 478-542-2080 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. You know, I never pushed the twins to be involved in any particular sport, but I can't tell you how proud I was when Lucy played volleyball and John David is a soccer star. I'm talking about Chucky Mock. Chucky Mock, a little boy, and I will forever remember him in his little league outfit. His mom, Kathy, so proud

of him, and she tells me she'll never forget the night she had her hands in the sink, washing dishes after supper. And he called out, Mom, can I go to the 7-Eleven and get some candy? She said, sure. He was never seen alive by her again. Who murdered this beautiful boy, Chucky Mock? I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What could be more innocent than a little boy asking mom to ride his bike about a block and a half to the 7-Eleven, the convenience

store, to get candy. You know, when I look around, not Lucy, but John David, my son's bed, all around his computer and basically everywhere he is in the car, I find candy wrappers. I do not give him that, but he gets his hands on it somehow. I guess the black market at school. I'm just thinking about this little boy, Chucky Mock. And when I think about Chucky Mock, I envision him in his Little League outfit, because that's one of the only pictures I have of him. And he has this big smile on his face and he's looking right at the camera. I think about my son at that age. And then I think about Chucky's mother, who is now a friend of mine. What happened to Chucky? And that one evening, everything changed. That one question,

hey mom, can I go get some candy? Everything changed in an instant. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all jim elliott lawyer butler snow legal counsel for georgia municipalities you can find in butlersnow.com professor forensics jacksonville state university author of blood beneath my feet on amazon joseph scott morgan psychoanalyst to the stars joining me out of beverly hills dr beth Bethany Marshall at drbethanymarshall.com. Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, my longtime colleague we met at a crime scene, Cheryl McCollum, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. But first, I'm going to go to my friend, Kathy Miller, Chucky's mom. Kathy, I'm so glad you're with us today. Hey, my friend. You know, Kathy, even when I hear your voice, I would

recognize it anywhere, but there are thousands of people that don't know you and don't know Chucky's story. Can I get you to start at the beginning when Chucky asked to go to a 7-Eleven? Okay. It was February 17th of 1986. And, you know, we had just had supper. I was just cleaning up the supper dishes. And he just came and asked me if he could go to the 7-Eleven because he would buy candy to sell at school the next day at break. He just thought he was making himself a little spending money. So, you know, in my hurry, I... You know, White, Kathy, I've got to tell you something.

There's been a development with John David. Lucy is not, let me see, an entrepreneur. But John David comes home and goes, Mom, I invested in a company. I'm like, really? Tell me. He goes, I invested a dollar, four quarters, and so-and-so's company is going to be big, Mom, because he told me I can make a million dollars in a year. I'm like, well, I hope that works.

Gosh, that sounds like Chuck. He had a savings account at a bank. I think it was like $10 at the bank. I told John David I also wanted to invest. So in the midst of kind of cleaning dishes and everything, I didn't look at him and I just said, okay, but hurry back. Okay, now wait a minute. What time of the day was it, Kathy? It was like 7.30.

7.30 at night? In the evening. Not yet dark. And it was still light out. And this little store is just like walking distance. It was just like right around the corner. Did he go on his bike as the crow flies? He went on his bike, yes.

Or did he go down the street and turn? Yeah, he went like just a few feet down the street. It's a huge little shopping center with a bowling alley. Yes. And a little grocery store. After we met, I've been there many times. A little southern shopping center. Not big.

Yeah, like a strip center. But small. Like, you know, just a few things in it. So he goes. It's daylight. And this was a neighborhood. Now let me ask you something. With me is Kathy Miller.

This is Chucky Mock's mom. Oh, gosh, I wish you could see that photo of Chucky in his Little League outfit. Okay, back to that evening. You had had dinner with the whole family. You said you didn't even look at him. I understand that's because you had your back turned to him in your hands in the dishwater. Yes. You know, you're doing a

million things and and you just but i always used to and i don't i always tried to look at him before he left really why you know why does that stick in your head that night i didn't but why does that stick in your head why would you always try to look at him i don't know i just had I don't know. I just had, I don't know. It was just something I always did. I like, you know, you watch all these crime stories and they'll say, well, what did he have on, you know, or, and they did ask me that, you know, what was he wearing? And, um, it was just something I did, but I just, in the midst of everything, you know, I just thought he'd be right back. I didn't do it. You know, joining me, you may know her well, Kathy, is the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

We met on a crime scene, I don't know how many years ago. Cheryl McCollum. You know, Cheryl, I was so, I only thought about it later, but I was so knocked out when a while back, it was Valentine's Day, actually, that you and I were at a crime event that you arranged to help a family with an unsolved case. And I said, where's Huck, which is your son? And you could tell me immediately where he was. And he is actually in college on lacrosse scholarship and traveling that night from his college to a lacrosse game somewhere out of state and you knew exactly where he was and I'm listening to Kathy and I have this thing I take the twins to school pick them up every day come hell or high

water and I watch them until they walk in until they have their hands on the door and they go in. I think subconsciously it's because of Kyron Horman. I'm not sure about that. But I watch to see them walk in once they get out of the car. Just like Kathy is saying, every time he left, just for whatever reason, she always looked at him except that night. That night. That night. And I tell you, Nancy, my youngest son, Greg, who is 42, I know where he is all the time. And when he walks out this door, I look at him.

Cheryl McCollum, jump in. Nancy, there is no doubt in my mind that you and I parent differently because of the Levi-Fradys, because of the Chuckies. We know. We know that there are devils walking this earth. So we protect our children differently than our mothers protected us, so to speak. Our mom said, hey, stay together on the bike or come home before it gets dark. Really? Mine never said that.

I don't do that. But we knew. This is funny. Funny, odd, I guess. We were out in the middle of nowhere, as you know, Kathy, in rural Bibb County. It was not even in the city of Macon. And when we would hear the chimes ringing in the church steeple, we would know it was 6 o'clock or way in the distance we'd hear somebody blowing the car horn and that would be a message wherever we were to

come home right then get home so let me ask you Kathy exactly that evening it was you Chucky his then little brother anybody else in the home? Yeah, my husband, Chucky's stepfather. Right, okay, so take a listen to what you told me. February 17th, 1986, the night he died. It was a Monday night, the night he died. Typical Monday night for us, the night he died. And that's kind of like when my world just fell apart. Chucky had wanted to go to the grocery store

right down the road, right around the corner from where we lived. It was over in a matter of moments to buy some candy for the next day. There was a group of kids here all the time. One of his friends came to our door and told us that Chucky, it looked like Chucky was hurt, but you never forget this place.

Gosh, he's fallen off his bike. He's hurt his leg or something. And he was just laying right here. And the closer I got, I knew it was so much more than that. I knew the light. And that's when we found him. And that's where it happened. Kathy, after he leaves, you're still washing the dishes what

happens next um a knock on the door how much later how much later about it was about eight like five after eight something like that so about 25 35 minutes 35 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so I knew it was getting a little late, but knowing Chucky, he probably stopped and picked a friend up and they all rode their bikes together. So I said, I, so she, anyway, she knocked on the door and said, I think Chucky is hurt. I can see him laying, you know, in the parking lot. And I thought, you know in the parking lot and I thought you know oh my gosh he's broke his leg he's hurt his arm so me my husband and and Greg you know we started going up there and then Pete started running and I started you had did you have the little brother with you yeah because I remember one time you described to me how you

were basically dragging him by the arm yeah and then pete grabbed him because i had him you know we were just walking up there you know because i thought i'd see chucky sitting there just saying oh mom it's nothing you know i just hurt my leg but um the closer we got i felt like i was in slow motion like i couldn't get there and um that's where we found him laying there and he was shot the back of the head crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. February 17th, 1986, the night he died. It was a Monday night, the night he died. Typical Monday night for us, the night he died.

And that's kind of like when my world just fell apart. Chucky had wanted to go to the grocery store right down the road, right around the corner from where we lived. It was over in a matter of moments to buy some candy for the next day. There was this group of kids here all the time. One of his friends came to our door and told us that Chucky, it looked like Chucky was hurt, but you never forget this place. Gosh, he's fallen off his bike, he's hurt his leg or something.

And he was just laying right here. And the closer I got, I knew it was so much more than that. I knew the light, and that's when we found him. And that's where it happened. This little boy with the big smile and his little league outfit, I'm looking at it right now, the cap on it. Who would want to hurt this little boy? With me, his mother, Kathy Miller.

Kathy, you left off where you felt like you were going in slow motion. When you saw, he wasn't sitting there saying, Mom, I hurt my leg. Yeah. What did you see? I could see him laying on his stomach, and I could see the blood, and he was so still, and I knew. I just knew it, and it just felt like I couldn't get to him fast enough. And then the police were there.

And then my husband came up and told me that it was Chucky. And I just didn't believe it. I just didn't believe it was him. I thought maybe somebody had borrowed his bike, you know, and they were just lying to me. But it was him. And when they rolled, they thought at first it was a hit and run. And when they rolled him over, the bullet came out the side of his face. So they didn't know it was a, he had been shot at close range. What of that haze stands out in your mind the most, Kathy? Like where they outline his body with the chalk, that stands out. And the crowd, just the crowd stands out. And everybody pulling me away, not to get close to Chucky,

just pulling me and trying to calm me down is, I guess, what stands in my mind. But I just knew I couldn't take my eyes off of him, you know. There's just so much going on, just so much. And it was just something no parent should see. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A., Dr. Bethany, I'm listening to Kathy Miller describe what she recalls. And I've asked her several times. And I do the same thing to witnesses because every time you hear it,

there's a tiny difference or maybe a fact or a tidbit you didn't hear the first time. But what's striking me right now, Dr. Bethany, is I remember when my fiance was murdered, what stuck out and what I remember. I remember walking across campus and after a statistics exam and stopping halfway at a pay phone in the student co-op to call the library where I, to tell them I was going to be late, because the test ran over, and they said, call Keith's sister, Judy. And I remember trying to call, and my hand was like a moth around a light.

That's the only way I can describe it. Tried to punch the buttons correctly. And I knew. I knew immediately that Keith was gone. It was over. It's interesting. I remember I told you this story once, Dr. Bethany. The first carjack murder case I ever tried that I ever took to a jury. It was a young guy who just walked out in his driveway to get something out of his car. And the perps came by, shot him dead just to get his car. A neighbor ran out and brought a pillow as the victim was dying in the driveway or already dead and put his head on the pillow. And that fact, not the horrible violence of the facts, it was the payphone, it was the pillow. For Kathy, it's a chalk outline. What does that mean, Dr. Bethany? Why do we do that? Well, I think we have something called

evocative memory where a memory... Oh, wait a minute. I've never heard this from you. Evocative memory. Okay, go ahead. Evocative memory where a sight, a smell, a sound, a feeling, an experience gets paired with the event. And then that pairing in our mind gets kind of seared into our memory. For instance, whenever you tell me about Keith, your fiance, you tell me a certain sequencing of events. You tell me you were taking a test, that you were slightly late. You had to go to a pay phone, that you had to call Keith's sister. I mean, you have paired a certain sequencing of events with that particular time of your life. And that is what we call evocative memory. I think another thing that happens that you're pointing out is that we human beings have to live with an

illusion of safety, meaning that how we go about our days is we feel safe. So when Chucky's mom said, sure, go to the store and get some candy, there was an illusion of safety. And that is a part of good mental health. But when you think of homicide stats, according to one stat, one in 133 people will be a victim of homicide. And whole households can be victimized, you know, not only with Chucky victimized, but the whole household by proxy was victimized. That is not a very safe, you know, situation. All of us can be victimized. So her illusion of safety was shattered in a minute. And that sears itself into one's memory.

Kathy, I know you can hear what Dr. Bethany is saying. So what did the witnesses say? You said there was a crowd gathered around yeah what happened i mean were you in even in any shape to say what happened no i i wasn't but um you know this crowd had gathered after chucky died so only two people saw him talking to someone in a white car but these two people two people were children and they were in a car driving on the road next to the parking lot and all they did was say well wait a minute i gotta tell you something about children kathy miller to j to Jim Elliott, trial lawyer with Butler Snow at butlersnow.com, longtime trial lawyer. Jim Elliott, you know, under a lot of jurisdictions law, children are

treated under the law as quote, their words, not mine, idiots or lunatics, their words, not mine, because it's assumed in many jurisdictions that children don't know right from wrong and can't tell the truth. I disagree. I have found children to be some of my very best witnesses ever because they don't always have the ability to lie like adults. So in my mind, you know, if you can unlock what they're saying, child witnesses are excellent. Well, they gave a composite sketch of the person they saw.

Did you hear that? And they sent to their dad, you know, there's Chuck. So they did see him, and he was just holding onto his bike, leaning, talking to someone. Jim Elliott, weigh in on child witnesses. Absolutely. I mean, they're not as jaded as we are as adults. They haven't been through situations where they have to make up something or I mean, absolutely.

I think the propensity for truth is much greater, frankly, in a child than it would be in many adults. So bottom line, Kathy, what did they say happened? They just said Chucky was talking and that was it.

Talking to? And then someone in a white, light colored car male a male and i i think it was two i've never been told that for sure but for some reason i think the detective that was first there said they said there was two people in the car. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Chucky's family lived right behind the bowling alley on Burns Drive. He'd ride his bike to a nearby convenience store all the time to buy candy. But one February night was different.

Sometime within those ensuing minutes, someone heard a loud pop. One witness that I've talked to actually described it as thinking it was a firecracker and kids playing. This is where Chucky's body was found. He lived in the neighborhood just beyond this fence post. Witnesses say they saw him talking to someone in a light colored car, but they don't know who. We had a lot of witnesses. A lot of people saw things. They see a vehicle speeding away. As they approach, within the next two minutes,

Chuckie's found deceased. You're hearing our friends at 41 NBC WMGT. That's Skylar Henry speaking with me. An all-star panel, Kathy Miller, Jim Elliott, Joseph Scott Morgan, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Cheryl McCollum, and Levi Page. To this day, his murder has not been solved. To Levi Page, investigative reporter, crimeonline.com, where you can find this and all other breaking crime and justice news. What do we know, Levi? Nancy, we know that there were witnesses that had witnessed certain elements of this murder. The little girl saw him fall off of his bike, alerted his mother. Another witness says that they heard a loud pop that they thought was a firecracker going off, but it was much more

sinister. It was not an accident on the bicycle. It was not a firecracker going off, but it was much more sinister. It was not an accident on the bicycle. It was not a firecracker going off. He was shot. And Nancy, this is what is so disturbing. He was shot in the back of the head. It went through the back of his head and left his nose. It severed his brain stem. And when he was found, he was found in a pool of blood and he was still gripping the bubble gum that he purchased at the store along with the receipt. So Kathy Miller, that tells me, this is Chucky's mom, and believe me, have not given up because I believe that this case may be solved. Kathy Miller, that tells me he made it into the 7-Eleven, that he was on his way home. Kathy, line 478-542-2080 478-542-2080 kathy miller what do you think happened i've always thought that either one or two white males tried to lure him into that car that that's always what I thought, because Chucky had no enemies.

I mean, he wasn't a bad kid. I mean, he was good, and everyone loved him. And I think someone wanted him in that car, and he wouldn't get in it. And I think they knew that he knew them. And Chucky probably said, you know, I'm going on a mimosa. I'm going to tell my mom or my dad. And they didn't want him to tell. And they shut him up.

Was his bike that he was riding facing back toward the 7-Eleven, or was he coming home? He was coming home, and it was like, yeah, he was coming home he was coming home and it was it was like yeah he was coming home but it was facing like sideways not not like because he was standing next to it so he turned to get on it and then you know he fell and then it just fell right next to him joining me professor forensics Jacksonville State University author of blood Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you know, years have passed. She's lived with this unsolved burden all this time.

This case can be reconstructed, Joseph Scott Morgan. Help me out. Yeah, absolutely. It can, Nancy, and this is why. These bits of information that are coming in to us are critical. What I'm really curious about is we have Chucky on the ground adjacent to his bicycle. We have this information about the car. I'm very curious, and what's a big tell here is the idea that there is a relationship, a physical relationship, and I mean like attitude,

in between Chucky and the shooter that could tell us a lot. Was he above or below Chucky when he shot? We want to know about the trajectory. Wait, wait, wait. He was in the car, as I recall. Isn't that right, Kathy? Yes, no. Right, right right he was in the car as i recall isn't that right kathy yes no right right he was sitting they said the way the bullet entered it didn't um it had to go the bullet had

to go up because it entered you know the back of his neck entered the back of his head came out through the nose area so that that means that we have an interaction. We can validate what they're saying about the interaction between Chucky and this individual in the car. The individual never got out of the car. So they fired literally from below to above. And this is key. Something had happened so that Chucky changed his physical attitude where he is moving away. And in that instantaneous moment. Can you just talk like regular people just for a moment when you say changed his physical attitude?

That's what I was trying to ask earlier, Joe Scott, because I think he was leaving the 7-Eleven going toward the street. He was confronted by one or two white males in his vehicle, I think, to get into his car. Did he turn around, Joe Scott, to go back to safety to the 7-Eleven? Did he move the angle of the bike? What are you saying? He changed his physical attitude. Well, when I say physical attitude,

what I mean is that he's literally turning his entire body and the bike so that as his mama is saying, he is trying to get back home. He's headed in that direction. He's not going to the store. Something has occurred where he wants to put distance between himself and the vehicle. He wants to go to the safety of home. And it was at that moment, Tom, that this person in the vehicle felt so comfortable in a public environment that they would fire around out of their vehicle and strike chucky uh at that moment time now we have a projectile we have the bullet itself according

to what i'm hearing that's key and what was the caliber do you know joe scott i do not know what the caliber is and i was really do you know kathy do you know the caliber found the bullet okay well if that is the case there could be fragments of the bullet that were left behind my my curiosity is piqued here because i want to know if those were recovered at autopsy one more big piece is that if this was a semi-automatic handgun and the individual stuck the weapon outside of the vehicle there is a high probability that it would have ejected out onto the ground. That is the spent casing. Now, if it's a revolver, it's not going to be there.

They would have taken that with them when they left with the weapon. Take a listen to our friends at 41 NBC, WMGT, Skyler Henry. The call first came in as a hit and run. It was soon determined that he was actually died as a result of a single gunshot wound. And I'll say single gunshot wound to the head. But who would shoot a 13-year-old boy? We don't expect our children to be shot and killed in Houston County in this manner. People during that time quit letting their kids ride their bikes.

They quit letting them go up the street on their bikes. Captain John Holland with the Houston County Sheriff's Office says he and investigators interviewed dozens of people trying to find that answer. They turned the neighborhood inside out. They canvassed the neighborhood. I think they set up road checks during that time just to find people that had seen things. And even to this day, we do get calls with people that either have some information or have an idea about who may have been involved. There is still no suspect. It's a tough conversation for Holland, especially when he talks to Chucky's mother. She still has some hope that one day she'll get some resolution.

But it's difficult. Take a listen to what Captain John Holland says. There are people in this community that were in this community at that time that know what happened to Chuckie Maltz and will have information that will lead to the resolution of this case. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into don't be a victim. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I am a brave mother, first and foremost. I am a brave parent, and I am a parent of a murdered child. And was he scared? I guess that's something that still, you know, was he scared that night? And, you know, I wasn't there. And was he scared? And did he know what was going to happen? The initial thought of myself and the police department was that it was a hit and run.

And when they turned Chucky over, they found that it was a gunshot to the head. People said, well, maybe it was just a stray bullet. Well no, not to hit him. Somebody knew what they were doing you know they they didn't want to hurt him. We walked from down there and came up here and then he was laying right there and that's where we found him. They like pushed me over to this fence, and I had to stand there, and then it was just out of control. It was just mayhem, and that's sort of like when I went away mentally, I guess. You are hearing the voice of Kathy Miller speaking to me. Kathy, the mom of Chucky Mock, gunned down in the parking lot at a 7-Eleven.

This little boy just going to get candy. When he was shot by either one or two white males from inside their car, he had the receipt and the candy in his hand and was heading home to mom. Kathy Miller, you have told me that people seemingly blame you, that somehow they're not the kind of person this happens to, but you are. Would you recount that story for me? Yeah. Yes. I worked at a doctor's office, and one of the patients had seen Chucky's picture and asked me,

you know, are you Chuck's mom? And I said, yes, I am. And, you know, she was just saying how awful it was how he was murdered. But she said, you know, when parents don't take care of their children God calls them home and I was just devastated because like down deep in my heart that was a fear like I should have been watching him I shouldn't have let him go you, this is all my fault. Well, she hit on that fear and I was hysterical, but she meant it if I'd just been watching him. God calls children home. What did you do when she said that? I just excused myself from my office and ran to my doctor and I was hysterical crying. I couldn't catch my breath because she said everything

that I believed for so long and made it all come back. Like I knew I was right. I knew it was my fault. I'm the one that should have said no. And I just believed it. Dr. Bethany Marshall, what is wrong with people? Why would anybody say that to Kathy? She's already lived through the death of her son,

the shock of seeing his body in a parking lot, bleeding from the head, being pulled back from the scene. He was only gone, you know, less than a few minutes. And then you have somebody approach her like that nancy it could be that the idea of a mother losing a son of murder of this being a crime of opportunity that this patient in this doctor's office perhaps she has her own children that this reality is so undigestible, so horrible that she took a flight into a very trite, shallow idea to bind her own anxiety about it. In other words, it's easier to call on a silly, stupid, superficial idea than to look a grieving mother in the eye and say, this must be devastating for you.

People do it all the time. They retreat. You know, they really do. And Cheryl McCollum, I know you're not a psychoanalyst like Dr. Bethany Marshall out there on Rodeo Drive, but you and I have dealt with so many violent crime victims. And I really think that people say these hurtful things like they said to Kathy because it makes them feel safer. Like, you know, Cheryl, I've been working and working and working on my new book, Don't Be a Victim. And people always say, oh, well, that wouldn't happen to me because I would never go jogging at night.

Well, I have. Or I would never park in a parking deck in a distant spot. Well, we all do it. Or I would never this or I would never that because it makes you feel like it won't happen to you and you can get through your day a heck of a lot better that way. I think it's absolutely a way to protect yourself. That's all it can be. I don't think that woman was being as evil as she came across. Well, I do. I think she's a hateful, hateful minion straight from hell. That's what I think.

But that's just me. You know, I mean, why does Kathy need more pain heaped on her? I do. I think she was protecting herself. But I tell you, looking at this case, Nancy, the things that stick out to me are the fact that Chucky was leaving. He was trying to get away. And the killer never even got out of his car.

This was close range. And to me, the base of the neck through the nose, that angle, that was a kill shot. This person did not aim at his back toward his lungs or his heart, the larger target. They picked the smaller target that was absolutely meant to kill him. On a little boy, a little boy with a bag of candy and a receipt riding his bike. I really believe, Cheryl, that the killer knew Chucky. I have no doubt in my mind because, hey, Jim Elliott, this is your backyard. Jim Elliott, veteran trial lawyer joining me from the area. you can find them at butlersnow.com. Jim Elliott. There's a very low crime rate in that area when Chucky was shot.

Very low crime rate. There was nothing at all wrong with letting him go the three blocks as the crow flies, if that much, to get some candy and daylight. It was a very common practice. It was a small town. I mean, the chances of some random violent act like this were incredibly small, especially at that time. You know what you're making me think of right now? The murders at Delphi of Liberty and Abigail up on that trestle bridge. That is a very small town. What I'm saying, Jim Elliott, the pool of suspects is very small.

It's got to be. Definitely very small. You know, Nancy, there's another interesting aspect of this matter, and Ms. Miller can confirm this. The incident happened right outside of the city limits, and so there was some confusion initially about which law enforcement agency had jurisdiction. Yeah. And, you know, unfortunately, a few, a very short delay like that can create problems that can never be resolved. Such as? Hey, I'm a JD. I'm not a mystic. What are you trying to tell me? I'm just saying, you know, who's going to take charge of the investigation? This is my case. No, this is my case. I mean, those kinds of things. But what do I care who's running the investigation? You said

it could hurt the investigation. How did that pause, that tiny delay, how did that hurt the investigation? I'm not saying it did hurt the investigation. I just think there's a chance that happened because again, people couldn't react as quickly. Maybe there could have been an opportunity to find that vehicle much more quickly. Ah, yes, exactly, the vehicle. Jim Elliott, what do we know about the vehicle, if anything? Some people say white, some people say light-colored. You know, unfortunately, not very much. Kathy Miller, wasn't there a little more?

Was it a four-door vehicle, American-made, light-colored? What more do we know? Did it have a land-down roof? What do we know aboutdoor vehicle, American-made, light-colored? What more do we know? Did it have a land-down roof? What do we know about the vehicle, if anything? That's it. Oh. It was just a light-colored car. And Mr. Elliott is right because on my side of the street was the county.

Across the street was the city. What, Houston Houston County Warner Robins in blue line yes and and there have been odds about like you know who's doing what and who's doing what but did that really delay the investigation do you think it did I don't think it did but you know I don't think it did, but, you know, I don't know. I don't think it did. Let me ask you this. I always knew there was. Of all the things to remember, why does that chalk outline stick in your head? I don't know, but it's just as clear just as clear as anything can you remember

the funeral or the memorial um I can remember parts of it because when I was going into the funeral home there was this voice that talked to me it was me but it you know it was just I was the only one that could hear it and it just said just remember that's not him he's in Mississippi with his grandparents so just go in and sit down and I it was it sounds crazy but this voice did talk to me. And it would tell me to do certain things. It doesn't sound crazy to me. Like, I know what.

I hate telling people that because they already look at me funny because I'm a parent of a murdered child. Like, I've already done something wrong, you know, because your child was murdered. What else do you recall about that voice? About what? The voice. The voice you heard in your head.

Oh, the voice that talks. Yeah. And then it told me that because I'd go to, after he died, I'd go to his junior high school and wait to pick him up from school. And the voice, after we had waited there forever and the school was all empty, the voice would say, oh, he probably already rode his bike home. He's already at home. So I would leave and go home. Kathy, after Chucky was shot, you would go to the school to pick him up? Uh-huh. Because I'd go first and pick up Greg, and then I'd go pick up Chuck.

I didn't know that. Yeah, just something I remembered. I kept on doing it until I just one day I just stopped would you share with everyone what you told me about the pictures what happened to all the pictures when you finally moved from that house that you had with Chucky? Right. Yeah, we moved quite soon afterwards. And we got a new house. I just because I'd have to pass that every day. Yeah. And I have his room. I just mentally I didn't think I could do it and so we bought a house and you know we're hanging things and hanging his pictures and you know just doing that and then all of his pictures fell

they all fell at the same time in one room? No, like it was in the living room, my bedroom, and the hallway. You were hanging pictures, and then all at once, all the pictures of Chucky crashed to the floor. I know, it sounds crazy. It doesn't sound crazy to me. Yeah, you'd be probably about the only one that understands that everybody else just looks at me.

I'll just put it out there, and I've taken a lot of heat for this in the media industry. I believe. I believe there is a life after death. And I pray to God that I meet Chucky there. With me is Kathy Miller, Chucky's mother. This is an ongoing investigation. The tip line is 478-542-2080.

It's been 34 years, Nancy. Can you believe that? No, I can't. I just, I mean, and you know, Nancy, sometimes I ask myself, you know, how, what, how long do I do this? I mean. I know how long until you can't, how long do I do this? I mean. I know how long until you can't do it anymore. I know I'll never quit. But it seems like sometimes you just want to run away from it, but there's nowhere to go.

You know, it's just, it's with me constantly. And, you know, you look at people and you think, I wonder, you know, does he kind of look like that person? And, you know, it's just in every bit of happiness, there's always that there that I think of. And then you think, you know, why, why are you laughing? You know, you had a child die. And I just don't know. They say time heals, but it might heal, but it, it doesn't take away the hurt. Our prayers go on for Chucky's mother, Kathy, and her family. There's still a chance at justice. 478-542-2080. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.