Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Did teen kill mom over a bad grade? PLUS: Thousand Oaks shooter's bizarre criticism of response to other US massacres

Episode Date: November 9, 2018

A Florida teen allegedly strangled his mother and buried her under a church fire pit over a poor report card grade. Nancy Grace looks at the case against 15-year-old Gregory Ramos, charged in the murder of mother Gail Cleavenger. Nancy's experts include forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, North Carolina lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, Atlanta lawyer Penny Douglas-Furr, and reporter Nicole Partin. Nancy also updates the investigation into what led to the Thousand Oaks bar massacre. The former marine who killed a dozen people, including a sheriff's deputy, posted a Facebook message before he opened fire on the crowd at Borderline Bar and Grill in which he appears critical of responses to previous mass shootings in the U.S.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This morning we were pulled out here to 35 Alicante in reference to a 15-year-old that had come home from school. His front door was kicked in or his side door was kicked in. The house was ransacked. His mother's car was in the driveway. And the engine was running. And hence the investigation began. And as the investigation began, it became quite apparent that this was not an act of random violence that in fact the 15 year old probably had killed his mother

sometime last night and after some Great detective work and great police work We were able to charge or access air in the process of charging her 15 year old son Was strangling her to death sometime after midnight into Friday morning. He then took the body to a nearby church where he buried it underneath of a fire pit. Came back to the house, staged a burglary, got some of his friends to get involved to get the electronics and a gun that was stolen. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Did a schoolboy strangle

his architect mom dead and then bury her body under a church fire pit, begging his friends to make it all look like a burglary, and it's all over a bad grade at school. I can hardly take it in. I'm going to tell you, it's making me rethink every time I pick the twins up at school and go, hey, how'd you do on your social studies test? Yay, if you make an A. Is that too much stress? Have I lost my mind?

It's not her fault. The kid made a D, and she fussed at him and he murdered her. You know what? Let me get the facts first. To Nicole Parton, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, who we were just hearing is the Volusia County Sheriff, Mike Chitwood, describing the investigation into the death of a lovely young mom, Gail Clevenger. Nicole, intimately familiar with the facts. Start at the beginning, Nicole. What happened? They get a 911 call from 15-year-old

Gregory. He later says he deserves a Grammy for that 911 call. He says he came home from school. His mother is missing. The home has been ransacked. There are items that are missing. The front door is kicked in. Her car is running in the driveway. And he says she's not there and he doesn't know what's happened. I can hardly take it in. Nicole Parton joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Nicole, how did it all start? Tell me about what police find when they get there.

Nancy, Sheriff Chitwood calling this one of the saddest, most disturbing cases of his career. And you're right, it all starts over a bad grade. Approximately 11 p.m. at night, Gail and her 15-year-old son get into a discussion about this bad grade. He storms off into his bedroom, typical 15-year-old behavior, I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he comes out of the bedroom, goes into his bedroom, typical 15-year-old behavior, I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he comes out of the bedroom, goes into his mother's bedroom where she's sleeping, wakes her up, and begins to strangle her. Joining me is Nicole Parton, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, renowned family lawyer out of North Carolina, Kathleen Murphy,

Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and boy, do we need a shrink. Also with me, Penny Douglas-Furr, trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and also joining me, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of a new book, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Okay, I want to figure out the scene. We don't know what happened. Joe Scott Morgan, explain to me what we are looking at crime evidence-wise. What are the CSI looking for? Well, I think the biggest watchword here, Nancy, is consistency.

What is it that is being seen observably by the law enforcement officers upon arrival? We've got evidence that, according to what is being said, that a door has been kicked in, that the area throughout the house has been ransacked. That gives us the initial impression, at least, that there may be a property crime gone wrong. And one of the more interesting things is that her vehicle was found, a van, outside of the home. And according to this young man, the vehicle was found running. So this all initially, at least, gives the police an idea that maybe this is a break-in gone bad. After speaking to neighbors there in DeBerry, Florida, they say that Gail Clevenger, deeply religious, very well educated, an architect mom, and was extremely supportive of her son, extremely supportive of him. And it's hard for me to take in that a child, he's still a minor, would kill his own mother. To Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, patricide or the killing of a parent is very, very rare, especially

matricide killing of the mother. Why is that so rare, Dr. Bober? Well, Nancy, I mean, it has to do with the attachment that, you know, a child has with their mother. It's just a very rare event. But remember something, you know, this is a 15-year-old kid, and a lot of times when 15-year-olds do things, they're very impulsive. But the fact that he waited, there was a delay, and then he strangled her, and then he staged the scene to make it look like a burglary, I mean, that comes from a very different place. This was not an impulsive act. This was very cold, and it was very calculated. Take a listen to Melusia County Sheriff Mike Chitwood answering questions. Rage. Rage. Apparently there was a dispute about marks with his mother.

And an argument occurred at around 11 o'clock or so at around 1230. He went into her room and woke her up and began strangling strangled her until he killed her and then he had to do something with the body so he put the body in the back of his mother's car drove to daytona and holly hill area where he was going to dispose of the body thought better of it came back home got a shovel got everything he needed drove 1.5 miles down the road to church, dug a hole in it, deposited his mother in it, covered it up, made the crime scene look like a burglary had occurred, and then went to school, left school early,

which is where his story began to fall apart, and then got home and made his, in his own words, a Grammy-winning phone call to 911 to talk about this horrible incident that did not really occur. To Penny Douglas-Furr, joining me, Atlanta defense lawyer. Penny Douglas-Furr, if you have to handle this case for the defense, what are you going to say? He's just really a misunderstood boy? Nancy, there are obviously going to say? He's just really a misunderstood boy. Nancy, there are obviously some psychological issues there. I would first have him examined because kids don't get bad

grades because they want to get bad grades. And I don't know what the mother said to him, but whatever it was, it pushed him over the edge. We need to know what else happened, what led up to this, did he have bad grades before this, and what were they doing to try and fix it? It sounds like his mother's well-educated, and if her child is getting bad grades, she would get somebody to work with him and somebody to help him. So I'm trying to find out. I would first try to find out where all of this came from and how long this had been happening. Of course, Penny Douglas-Furr, the consummate defense attorney, says,

I'd like to find out what the mom said that made him do this. You know what? More victim-blaming, Kathleen. But I get it, Penny. That's what you do for a living. Not judging. Not bitter. a living. Not judging, not bitter, excuse me, not judging to Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer. You have a very different take on this kid. I absolutely have a different take on this child. I have a take on the status of this child's relationship with both of his parents. I have an opinion that this child

was manipulating his mother throughout his life. The father was away on a business trip. He got back tonight. So, you know, there's a lot of heartache in that family. You know, not only do you have a son who kills her mother, but you have a father who was away, and he comes back, he lands, and the next thing he knows, the police are taking him to the police district to talk about your wife is missing. Oh, my stars. Can you imagine? You get back in town, your house is ransacked, and your wife, your spouse, is missing.

We're talking about a lovely young mother, Gil Clevenger, an educated woman who was very supportive of her son, Greg, age 15. Oh, my stars. Oh, my stars. And to get that news. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now, Penny Douglas Furr, Atlanta veteran defense attorney, says, oh, well, clearly the boy, the little boy has a

psychological problem. And I wonder what the mom said, what Gail Cleavager said to make him do this. All right. I can't say I expected anything different, but Kathleen, not judging, not judging Penny. Joining me right now, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer. Let's just say she's not as sympathetic to Gregory as Penny Douglas-Ferrer is. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned? I've learned that this child was manipulating, in my opinion, his mother all of his life because he has the ability to man up to her. There was not a father figure in this child's life. And this child has a presence online that is also somewhat disturbing.

So if his mother's concerned about a D on his report card and approaches him about it, she should really be concerned, what is he doing on 4chan? What is he doing with the alt-right thought process? And that's not even addressed, I believe. I'm looking at photos right now of the two of them together, Greg, 15, and his mom, Gailail clevenger and here they are uh she's apparently taking karate with him is that what that is he's got they both have on there it looks like karate or maybe taekwondo the patch on greg's arm says assistant. I'm looking at all these photos of the mom and the son together. There's a shot of River City Church, one and a half miles away from the home, where her body was found buried in a fire pit behind it with her foot protruding.

Very important. I'm looking at the bookend photo of the son. Gail Clevenger tried to fight back as she was being strangled. There's scratch marks across the son's face, under his right eye and around his nose in the mugshot. I'm looking at them all right now. Let me ask you, Nicole Parton, what did the friends have to do with this? Did he enlist them to try to make it look like a burglary? He did. Two high school friends, he calls them up after he's killed her and says, look, I need some help. They come over, they assist him with getting rid of the body. They assist him with taking items out of the house to make it look like a burglary.

And it's kind of odd to note, after they bury her, they stop at the Circle K and grab a soda, then head back to the house to stage the crime scene together. Okay, whoa, whoa. Nicole Parton, please say that one more time. What did you say about the Circle K? After they get rid of the body, bury the body at the fire pit at the church, the boys stop at Circle K to grab a soda. They have a soda, I don't know, maybe a snack too. They head back to the house and then stage the crime scene. Okay, Dr. Daniel Mober, forensic psychiatrist, renowned forensic psychiatrist, as a matter of fact. Penny Douglas Furr, bleeding heart defense lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Okay, she wins all of her cases, number one.

Now I know why she really believes it. Dr. Daniel Bober, for just about 30 seconds, I was trying to focus on what Penny Douglas-Furr was saying. Now that I know this guy, this kid, stops at the circle k and kicks back for a slurpee after he buries his mother's body yeah no uh-uh he is not insane he does not have psychological problem he's just mean and enlists the help of two other sociopaths to help him stage the scene and make it look like a burglary uh you know, he may have problems, but they're more of the personality variety. They're more of the antisocial variety.

He's clearly a kid who has very little empathy and cannot have any remorse for other human beings. Are you saying he's a sociopath or a psychopath, and what's the difference? Well, they both are variations of the same thing, which means that people have antisocial traits. They lie, they manipulate, they're conning, they don't have empathy for others, and they sort of have this Machiavellian way of leading their lives where they do whatever they need to do and they don't care who they have to step on in the process. You know, I'm looking at the two co-defendants, not co-defendants in the actual

murder of his mom, Gail Clevenger, but staging the scene and disposing of the body. Joseph Scott Morgan, this is crazy. Your son is about this age. I'm looking at the two co-defendants. They just look like normal teen kids. You'd never imagine they could do something like this. I'm looking at him, Greg, the son, the teen boy, and all the happy shots that the mom has posted. There's the mom. There's the boy's father. There is the, I guess it's the stepdad.

I'm not sure. She had just called the boy's father to tell him their son had made a D. D as in Delta at school. And according to police, he was then motivated by rage to kill his mother. Here he is, Gregory Ramos, with the grandma, loving on the grandma. And here is the mom, Gail, in one of her professional sites. Now, interesting, she was absent from work the morning that she was down. Looking at their home, nice big yard with trees all around it. The van, her van was left running outside. My question to

you, Joe Scott, your son is this age. I bet all of his friends look like they would never dream of doing anything like this, just like these kids do. Yeah, I'm just thinking, you know, who he would call up in the event that he needed this kind of help and who he would be aligning himself with that without argument, without any compunction whatsoever, that they would just, you know, agree to go and, yeah, yeah, sure, we'll go bury mom, your mom with you, you know, the lady that's probably, you know, I don't know, fix some sandwiches, you know, had them over, maybe they had sleepovers when they were younger, you know, all those sorts of things. How does this kid have these kinds of associates

that would enter into this kind of confederacy with him to do this? It absolutely blows my mind. And, of course, it's, you know, as with all these kinds of things, the police, via forensics as well as questioning these individuals, are going to be able to figure this out. These people are not rocket scientists. You know, to Nicole Parton, CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter where you can find this and all other crime and justice news. I'm looking at her postings, Gail Clevenger's postings. Here she is with her husband, Danny Clevenger. She's not a single mom. The bio dad is still out there in the boy's life.

And the stepdad, here they are at the beach. And they're hugging each other with the beach in the background. And she's put like the shiny stars, you know, superimpose them all around them like they're in love. I'm looking at their home. It's got a great yard for him to play with. Here he is with his grandma. Here she is with the boy's dad and him at some event. My point is, Nicole, everything she posed and everything we can find of them, they look so happy. They do. And even the neighbors, they're saying they moved into that community about five years ago.

The neighbors were saying they were very kind, they were sweet, they never heard arguments, nothing out of the way. The neighbors calling them a very loving family. Take a listen to Volusia County Sheriff Mike Chitwood, what he tells us. There's a lot of crime scenes, a lot of different work going on. There was a lot of great detective work, there was a lot of great police work, and I think from the very beginning when detectives got on the scene and looked at the physical evidence and listened to the stories even listening to 9-1-1 call things

just didn't add up just didn't end up people just don't walk into a burglary and you know and the story didn't end up the woman never made it to work this morning. So work knew she was missing. So there was no way she could have driven the young man to school. Window treatments is one of those terms for something necessary but boring. Your blinds. You don't even think about them unless you move or they break. Well, when they're right, everything in your home looks better. But when they're wrong, everything in your home looks tacky. But let's be honest, taking the time and the effort to pick out and buy blinds sounds expensive, boring, and then think of installing them yourself. Who wants to do that? But blinds.com makes it really easy for you. Not sure what you want or even where to start? With blinds.com you get a free online design

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Blinds.com promo code Nancy. Rules and restrictions do apply. Chilling details as a teenage son is charged in the murder of his own mother, accused of weaving a twisted plot to cover it up. Police say it started Thursday night with a fight between the teen and his mother, 46-year-old Gail Clevenger, over his grades. In particular, a D that he received in a certain subject. A very loud and boisterous and contentious argument ensued. His stepfather out of town when the boy allegedly waited until midnight to choke Clevenger to death, later enlisting the help of two friends to move her body into a van and bury it in a fire pit at a nearby church.

You're hearing our friend Ariel Reshef at ABC News reporting on this. Is it true a teen boy strangled his mom, goes outside, comes back in to find she's not dead, then continue to choke her for the next 30 minutes i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us nicole parton crime online.com investigative reporter is that fact true that he goes outside comes back in see she's not dead and continues to choke her another 30 minutes if that's true there's no way he can argue crime of passion, you know, boiling blood or anger. He did it for 30 minutes. That's correct, Nancy. His story is that he thought she was dead after strangling her for some time. He went outside to get the wheelbarrow.

He comes back in to find that she's actually still alive. So he continues to strangle her again for some 30 minutes until he's certain that she's dead. Well, Penny Douglas, there goes your voluntary manslaughter plea right down the crapper. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But Nancy, think about it. If you're a parent and you find out that your child is a sociopath, what would you do? Most parents would be so traumatized. If I found that out, I'd put him into treatment immediately to try to save his life. But I don't have any evidence that Gail knew her son had any issues. And I don't know that he's a sociopath. To Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer, before I start slinging around psychiatric words, especially while Dr. Daniel Bober's listening to me do it and

mangle his studies. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned about this kid? Nancy, this child was fundamentally unmonitored his whole life and unchallenged. And if you look into his Facebook page, you'll see a Keck emblem behind his profile picture. And looking up Kekistan, it was an imaginary world that was created on 4chan. Now, if my 15-year-old was on 4chan and my 15-year-old was in an alt-right type of environment where hate language is spewed, I think I would know about it. So what I'm led to believe is that this child pretty much did what he wanted to do when he wanted to do it and got in deep. So bottom line, what you're telling me is in addition to Republicans and Democrats, there is a Kekistan with its very own flag. Now, Kekistan is mostly a joke, sort of.

It grew on the Internet on 4chan's political message board. And that is a real, let me just say, haven for Internet trolls. Correct. It has the most taboo comments possible there and it has morphed into a location online where fringe groups join in and it really came out a kick k-e-k really came out of the world of warcraft's chat system that's where it came from. And then it kind of wormed its way into our vernacular online as a replacement for laugh out loud, LOL, Kik. So what do you know about Kik, Kathleen Murphy? Why it's so disturbing this boy was part of Kik?

I think the whole Kikistan movement has been, if you will, adopted by the alt-right conservative movement. And in fact, the Southern Poverty Law Center has it on a hate watch monitoring, I guess you could say, list. And it's concerning to me that this is what this 15-year-old was reading, looking at, examining, and identifying with. Yet yesterday with my 12-year-old son, he made plums and apples with all of his friends. And I think when a parent comes in to parenthood and they're doing it all by themselves for so many years, and she doesn't have the support of a male in the home with the son, it's very difficult. It is very difficult. Doesn't her husband live with them? That is the stepfather. And I think they were recently married within the last few years.

The father of this child is not in the picture. He lives in another state. Okay, I want to go into this Kik, K-E-K, with Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I'm learning that Kik that Greg Ramos was involved with was actually an ancient Egyptian god. Okay, god with a little g. And was often depicted with the head of a frog. I don't know that I want my son or my daughter embroiled in ancient Egyptian demagogues.

But it is mostly an innocent cartoon character. But it was then turned into a hate symbol. So tell me what you know about this and why it's so telling. This boy was part of that. I don't know a lot about it specifically, but I can tell you what I do know, which is as a child psychiatrist, I see parents bringing their kids into my office all the time. And a lot of these kids will have online personas that their parents are not even aware of. So, you know, you can try to be a good parent. You can try to keep track of your kid. But there is a whole nother world in cyberspace that they are on. You really have to

work hard. Even law enforcement sometimes can't even find online personas that people have. So as a parent, it's very challenging to really be on top of all the details, to know what kids are doing when they go to school and whose smartphones they're using and whose computers they're on when they're not at your home. But I tell parents this all the time. It's very important to keep that computer in a common area, not when they're in their room with the door closed, because they're in another world and they shouldn't be there. Well, let me tell you this. John David, my beloved, my perfect little boy, used as his handle, Angry 3G, i.e., Angry Third Grader. That's actually cute.

I said, John David, why are you so angry? He goes, I'm angry, Mom. I'm angry. I'm like, why are you angry? He said, because some days we don't get the full 30 minutes on the playground, Mom. That's why he's angry. I cannot tell you how relieved I was to find out why he was angry. So I'm always sneaking up on them to find out what they're doing online. Every time I sneak up on my daughter, she's either

looking at yet another cat video, which is disturbing in its own own right but some kind of facial something you make at home to put on your face she just turned 11 okay but in our culture she's always like already like putting all these beauty lotions that she makes out of all sorts of things out of the fridge onto her face let me just say and she would kill me if if you know the instant tan lotion so she read online you could mix cocoa powder with lotion she mixed it with a vino and rubbed it all over herself okay to get an instant tan i told her how absolutely gorgeous she looked of course uh okay i'm digressing what i'm talking about is this kid going online on his Facebook, all sorts of hate-inspired motifs.

What does it mean? I'm not sure, but I know this. Cops say he murdered his mother very calmly, very calculatedly. Listen. Rage. Rage. Apparently there was a dispute about marks with his mother. And an argument occurred at around 11 o'clock or so at around 1230.

He went into her room and woke her up and began strangling her until he killed her. And then he had to do something with the body. So he put the body in the back of his mother's car, drove to Daytona and Holly Hill area where he was going to dispose of the body, thought better of it. Came back home, got a shovel, got everything he needed, drove 1.5 miles down the road to church, dug a hole in it, deposited his mother in it, covered it up. Made the crime scene look like a burglary had occurred. And then went to school, left school early, which is where the story began to fall apart, and then got home and made his own words, a Grammy-winning phone call to 911 to talk about this horrible incident that did not really occur. neighbors tell me the deeply religious woman was extremely supportive of her 15 year old son Gregory Ramos who's now accused of strangling her in their Alicante home and enlisting two of his friends Dylan Sigleric and Brian Porras to help cover it up. Gail was a sweetheart she was very very kind person.

Lynn Hackett tells me the family moved to this to bury neighborhood five years ago she says they all got along well with the family and she would drive Ramos and her son to University High School Ramos was also a member of the Orange City Police Explorers Program. He was always polite to me and they always thanked me and say you know thank you for the ride home. Neighbors tell me Clevenger was involved in martial arts and she also worked as an architect at a firm in Orlando. She started there just three weeks ago. The company tells me she was a hard worker and spoke highly of her son and stepchildren. They tell me they are heartbroken by this loss. Neighbors cannot understand it either. You're hearing from our friend Greg Wormer at WFTV TV Channel 9 and speaking to Gil Clevenger's neighbors. And we learned that this boy,

Greg Ramos, who now is charged in the murder of his mother, was a police explorer in the Explorer Group. You know, Dr. Daniel Bober, it sounds like this kid, if Kathleen Murphy had not gone online and found his Facebook and all the implications of that, he seems like an outwardly great kid. And it says a lot to me that the mother was upset that he made a D, which means she cares. Well, you know, I don't really think this is about him getting a D. Obviously, there are much deeper problems, but it just shows how, you know, people can sort of compartmentalize their lives and be living this completely other life and others aren't aware of it. Is it true, Nicole Parton, that the sheriff says that the boy was, quote, proud of his work? What do you know, Nicole? That's right. As part of his confession,

Gregory says he was very proud of his work, telling the sheriff that he thought he deserved a Grammy for his 911 call. He also stated that when he made the 911 call, he used what he had learned in criminal justice classes to give, quote, the flavor of truth to his lies. Penny Douglas Furr, veteran defense attorney. What do you do with that? That he used what he learned in his criminal justice classes to, quote, give a flavor of truth to his lies. That's a typical thing of sociopaths. I hate to say that, but that's typical of what they do. They'll take a little bit of truth and twist it. And that's the sad thing. I've litigated against sociopaths. It is a nightmare. And if you know the child's sociopath, he needs to be in treatment immediately. I don't know what signs this mother missed,

but this child should have been in treatment long ago. Oh, you're back on the mom. You're back on the mom. The signs the mother missed. You know what, Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert. Explain how this attack went down. I don't think the mom missed anything. This kid is super intelligent. Yeah, he's apparently waited until the wee hours. Maybe she's gone to bed. Remember, we heard that she had contacted the stepfather after she had confronted this kid. He's stewing over this thing, sitting around thinking about it, waits till she goes to bed. Now, one of the articles that I read, Nancy, stated that he not just strangled her, he throttled her. And if the listeners will

essentially take their hands and put their thumbs together, lying flat, and form kind of a U with your hands. That gives you an idea of what the formation of his hands would look like, the attitude they would be in as he wrapped them around this mother's neck and then began to squeeze. I find it interesting that they talked about how long this took. They said it took up to 30 minutes. A lot of this is dependent upon hand pressure how much hand pressure he can exert over her throat there will be a struggle at the scene you noted uh quite accurately a few months ago he's got marks on his face when they exhumed her body out of this fire pit they're going to do at the morgue they will do do nail scrapings on her. And you'll be able to find probably his skin beneath her fingernails

and probably much of his DNA on her if it hasn't been completely disrupted. Very, very troubling. Very troubling. You know, we keep throwing around the term sociopath. Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. Sociopath does not mean insanity. We do know police say he had no remorse, that he is super intelligent, and not only that, that he was, quote, proud of his work. What does that mean, and what is a sociopath? That is correct, Nancy. Sociopath does not equal the insanity defense. Sociopaths don't know the difference, don't not necessarily know the difference between right and wrong, even though that was a double negative. The point is that

you could be a sociopath, you can plan, you can organize, you can attempt to conceal, you can lie, you can manipulate. And so just because you're a sociopath doesn't absolve you of responsibility. And in fact, it makes you quite adept at committing crime and trying to conceal it. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, will he be charged as an adult? I believe he will be charged as an adult, as he rightly should be charged as an adult. This is an intentional throttle, as Joe said, murder of his mother planned with forethought. Well, we also know, to Joe Scott Morgan, speaking of forensics, that the mom was first attacked in her own bed after midnight. So clearly he waited for her to be asleep. This teen boy

spent over half an hour throttling his mom dead with his bare hands as she fought for her life. This was all over a D as in Delta grade. And it unfolded in court where this boy was denied bail and remains in custody. There are the seven deadlies, the DFA's designated felonies for which a minor will be quote bound over to adult felony court. Murder is one of them, along with rape, aggravated sodomy, armed robbery, arson. Let's see, what are the other two? Any lawyer on the panel can tell me the other two. But long story short, Penny Douglas-Furr, he's going to be bound over. He will be tried as an adult. I can guarantee you that.

Absolutely, Nancy. The only thing that being 15 will help him with is he will not get the death penalty, which he could get in Florida for this type of crime. But I do not think they'll give the death penalty to a 15-year-old. Well, they can't under the Supreme Court ruling about four or five years ago. No one under the age of 18 in our country can be sentenced to the death penalty. But explain the bind over process, Penny. How will it be determined if he'll be treated as an adult? Well, as you just said, it's one of the seven deadly sins. So that will definitely send him over and it's murder. And not only is it murder, but he went back and found her alive and then killed her again. So he thought about it and went back and did it again.

So absolutely, he's dangerous. He will be moved over to adult court to be tried as an adult for murder, and he will most likely get life in prison. I thought of the seven deadlies. They are ag assault, arson, aggravated battery, which means you lose a limb or a body part or your eye your arm during an egg assault robbery armed robbery um kidnap murder do i did i get seven jackie okay i got all seven those are the typical designated felonies for which a child or a teen will be bound over and treated as an adult.

Police in this case say that Gregory Logan Ramos is one of the top three sociopaths they have ever encountered. They are assuming the worst for my son. So they went in there, they all got out, but he didn't come out. Did they say where he was when they last saw him? He went to the bar to get the drinks for everybody, and that's when they heard the shots ringing out and all panic. Have you gone to the hospital? We did call the hospital. They're going through their crazy triage right now, so they don't have any names or anybody that they don't want to talk yet.

I haven't been over there. That's my next step is to go there yet. What did they tell you here? They just take your information and tell you to wait. How is that as a dad? Like I said, I'm pretty emotional. Tell me about Cody. What was Cody's personality?

Awesome. We're a very Christian-raised family, and he's a very good kid. He's very good in school. He's very sports-oriented. He was going into the Army, so we're going to have to wait and see. And with the situation, do you want to answer that? Please answer it. No, that's just my mom. Okay. I'm like, if do you want to answer that? Please answer it. No, that's just my mom and dad. Okay. I'm like, if you get word, I want you to get it.

Yeah, me too. So he's going into the Army. Yeah. And you talk about these mass shootings that we've been seeing. Did you ever talk to him about things like this? Yeah, that's why I'm very curious right now on, you know, raising him the way we've raised him. Why hasn't he picked up a cell phone,

anybody's cell phone, and called home? So I don't understand where we're at at this point. I'm actually, yeah, I'm very, very in shock. At this hour, we now know the list of victims that were massacred in the borderline shooting. You were just hearing Jason Kaufman, who we heard those heartbroken words yesterday. He was desperately searching for his son, Cody, who had been inside the borderline bar. Now we know that Cody is one of the casualties. From co-eds to law enforcement to military, 12 gunned down. As we look for answers today to Alan Duke joining me from LA, what do we know about the shooter? We have his last Facebook post and it is like none other than any we've ever seen from someone who commits a massacre and what did he mean by this I think it's going to take a psychologist to tell us he says quote

I hope people call me insane and then he posted laughing emojis wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony yeah I'm insane but the only thing you people do after these shootings is, quote, hopes and prayers or, quote, keep your keep you in my thoughts every time and wonder why these keep happening. That's what Ian David Long wrote just before killing 12 people. You know what? That just turns my stomach over to hear the shooter's last Facebook post. We now know who was massacred in the Borderline Bar shooting. First of all, Cody Kaufman. You were just hearing his father, Jason, wondering, was he alive? Was he dead? His friends came out, but they couldn't find Cody. The distraught dad rushed to the bar after hearing news of the shooting,

and calls to his son's cell phone were not answered. Jason had been using a tracking app on his son's phone, and it indicated the cell phone was still on. Of course, Sergeant Ron Helus, Ventura County Sheriff's Sergeant. Ron Helus leaves behind a son and a wife. He was one of the first on the scene at the shooting. He raced in to save others. The last thing he said to his wife,

Hun, I gotta go. I love you. I gotta go on a call. Elena Housley, the niece of actress Tamara Marie Housley, and her husband Adam also died. Her suite mate at Pepperdine earlier posted photos on Twitter saying that she was missing. Her Apple Watch and phone appeared to still show her location is in the bar. She was there with friends. All of them were accounted for. Justin Meek, ID'd as one of the victims by his family. he was a 23-year-old recent grad of California Lutheran University, and he worked there and organized the college night.

He is believed to have heroically saved lives as the shooting unfolded, according to the university president, Chris Kimball. Sean Adler, 48, was a bouncer at Borderline Bar and Grill. He was a wrestling coach who had just opened a coffee shop, his dream, in a local area. Noel Sparks, a 21-year-old student at Moore Park, was also confirmed dead. This United Methodist Church in Westlake Village, she was a member there, posting condolences. Friends breaking down in tears as they desperately searched for her after the shooting. Blake Dingman, just 21, identified by his girlfriend as the victim. My sweet Blake, my heart is hurting more than words can say, she writes.

Telemachus Orfanos, Borderline employee, confirmed dead. An Eagle Scout who served in the Navy. He survived Route 91 Harvest Festival shooting in Las Vegas where 58 died. And now he's dead. Christina Kelly Morissette was a cashier at Borderline. She died in the shooting. She went to Simi Valley High School and she's absolutely beautiful with a big smile and cowboy boots just like mine. Danielle Manrique, 33, a Marine vet, spent his whole life helping veterans readjust to civilian life and just got a position with Team RWB.

We're looking at so many of the victims and so many hearts are broken. To Alan Duke, joining us from LA. Alan, it's almost incomprehensible that some of these victims had survived the shooting at the Mandalay. That is one of the, I'm not even going to say irony, that doesn't do it justice. These were country music fans and they were there at the Route 91 festival, which in Las Vegas, where so many people were injured and killed. And for them to be in this shooting, what kind of odds are that? Well, unfortunately, the odds apparently are pretty good that you're going to be involved in some kind of a shooting. It's crazy. Joining me, Wendy Patchett, California prosecutor. When you look at this guy's last post, it's almost as if he knew what was going to unfold after.

You know, Nancy, it is, and it's almost as if, and I find this very interesting, he set himself up for a mental defense that he never had the opportunity to avail himself of because apparently he committed suicide. It's almost as if he was using his scenario as a warning to others that unless you give mental health victims the treatment they need, if they can overcome the stigma and admit they have a problem, we're going to see even more of these. But the sinister nature of it, Nancy, that is just chilling and would have been in front of a jury were this man to have survived. Well, he may have mocked it and he may have made light of it,

but nothing is stronger than the power of prayer. And that is what we are doing today for the victims and their families, 12 dead at the borderline bar. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.