Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Do you believe? Psychic detectives share their crime fighting tales

Episode Date: January 1, 2019

They can't testify in court about what their special talents reveal to them about crimes, but psychic detectives have remarkable stories to share -- if you choose to believe them. Nancy Grace explores their stories in this New Years Day Crime Stories show. Her guests in include psychic detectives Noreen Renier, Gale St. John, and Allison DuBois. Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan joins the discussion to add some healthy skepticism. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Do you know another parent or expecting parent? Are you wondering what can I give them as a gift? Don't give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun that's just going to end up in the garage. Give them something that matters. And what matters the most is protecting their child.

What do you love most in the world? Your children. What will you do to protect them? Anything. I sat down with the smartest people I know in the world on matters of child safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators. And what I learned is so important, powerful, and information so critical. I want you to have it. I want them to have it. Go to crimestopshere.com for a five-part series with action information that you can use to change your life and protect your child. Give that as a gift, not another onesie.

Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store or the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. But first, this Crime Online News Update. I'm Robin Walensky.

If you don't want a child, don't have them. And if you got them and you don't want them, give them up. Don't do it this way. That's wrong. Neighbors stunned to learn a father, a former Walmart Santa Claus, under arrest in Georgia after the bodies of his two children found buried in his backyard of his house. The kids never reported missing. This is against the good Lord's word.

Elwyn Crocker Sr., now 50 years old, arrested after sheriff's deputies go to his house in Guyton, Georgia, a suburb of Savannah, to conduct a welfare check on his 14-year-old daughter, Mary Crocker. After questioning Crocker, he apparently directs deputies to an area of his backyard where investigators find the bodies of Mary and her brother Elwin, who's been missing for two years. I've been doing this 41 years, and a while ago I almost broke down in tears. You're listening to longtime Effingham County Sheriff Jimmy McDuffie at a news conference just distraught over detectives finding the two bodies. It's that bad. I just, I cannot understand how you do children like this. Horrible. Now police getting a tip during a 911 call saying Mary Crocker hadn't been seen since October and the tipster telling the 911 operator she believes the girl

is dead. More now from ABC 13. A tip is what led investigators to this home on Rosebud Place. They were told 14-year-old Mary Crocker was missing and believed to be dead. She hadn't been seen since October. Investigators questioned everyone inside the home. Deputies say the family lied, saying Mary went to live with her mother. When deputies returned Thursday morning, they discovered Mary buried just feet away from her home, and her brother's body was found nearby. Elwin Crocker Jr. hadn't been seen since November 2016. Authorities

believe he was killed at that time, only discovered now, two years later after his death. He would have been 16. Neither of them were reported missing. Deputies have charged three in connection. The biological father, 49-year-old Elwyn Crocker, the stepmother, 33-year-old Candace Crocker, and the step-grandmother, 50-year-old Kim Wright. They say the three are being charged with concealing the death of another and cruelty to children in the first degree. Deputies say the child of the stepmother was found alive inside the home. He was taken to the hospital to be checked out. And a stunning story of two brazen burglars who make

themselves at home. They make a pot of coffee, do their laundry, and take a shower after breaking into a house in Canton, Ohio. They steal expensive stuff. Police say the couple hanging out in the house until the homeowner comes back, realizes what's going down, and calls a relative who has a gun. The two suspects, identified as Richard Napel, 38 years old, and Camry Cantwell, 20, who is reportedly homeless. After the two allegedly steal jewelry, a computer, credit cards, house and car keys, they load these items into their truck and then go back inside and do the laundry, take the shower and make coffee. The homeowner arrives, sees the truck in her driveway,

and she calls a relative who lives nearby, who arrives with the gun before police get there. The male suspect also has crystal meth on him when he's arrested. The two now charged with burglary, and he's also facing an aggravated drug possession charge. In other news, a crazy story out on Long Island where a couple is accused of punching a New York State trooper and then throwing soiled underwear during a DUI arrest.

Michael Nelson, 38 years old, pulled over on the Southern State Parkway. Cops see he's driving under the influence of alcohol. While he's being arrested, police say he headbutts the trooper several times and hits the officer. His wife, Alexandra, 29 years old, also arrested. While these two at the police station, the wife reportedly spits at the officers, throws her shoes and dirty underwear at them. She's charged with attempted assault, criminal possession of a controlled substance, and disorderly conduct. The husband charged with driving under the influence, assault, criminal possession of a controlled substance, resisting arrest and harassment. More now from WABC's Sandra Bookman. A bizarre story on Long Island. Police say

a couple head-butted a state trooper and even threw soiled underwear during a DUI arrest. State troopers say they pulled that couple over this morning on the Southern State Parkway. Police say Michael Nelson fought the state troopers who arrested him. And when they got to the police station, officers say his wife, Alexandra, spat at the troopers and threw her shoes and underwear. The couple faces a laundry list of charges. Keep up to date on justice and crime issues with Nancy's website, CrimeOnline.com. And follow Nancy on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram to know what she's talking about each day

on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, which is now on Sirius XM Channel 111 and heard on radio stations around the United States every day. And follow Nancy on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram to know what she's talking about each day on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, which is now on Sirius XM channel 111 and heard on radio stations around the United States every day. And if you miss her there, download the Crime Stories podcast, subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Google Play, and many other podcasting sites. If you have a tip for Nancy or want to leave a question she might answer in her show,

call Nancy's Crime Stories hotline at 1-909-49-CRIME. That's 909-492-7463. And Nancy answers the phone live on most weekday mornings. We will let you know through Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And now, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. live on most weekday mornings we will let you know through facebook instagram and twitter and now crime stories with nancy grace crime stories with nancy grace i never once introduced a psychic into court because A, it's not hard evidence. B, the defense would cross-examine those witnesses to H-E-double-L and back. So in my world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it. It doesn't exist in the world of hard evidence. And my job

was to put hard evidence in front of a jury to prove somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of their life or worse. But then everything changed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What do you think about psychics and specifically about psychic detectives? Because today we have an all-star lineup of some of the most well-known psychics in the world to talk about not just does another realm exist, but what they have done to help solve criminal cases. With me, Noreen Renner, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois, and of course, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert to weigh in on the, let's just say the world of here and now, and Alan Duke, Jackie Howard, we're all're all here and again thank you for being with us

i'll tell you joe scott morgan since you and i deal in harsh reality and cold hard facts before i get to our ladies joe scott come on if i tried to bring a psychic into court i would be laughed down the courthouse uh hallway right out the front door and i could be looking for a job um i don't know uh door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesperson i guess I don't know, door to door vacuum cleaner salesperson, I guess. I don't know what I would be doing with that law degree because there would be enough skeptics to ruin a verdict. And I could never risk that. Yeah. Yeah. Nancy, I'm a forensic scientist and I concur with with much of what you had said relative to being able to not just qualify but quantify those things that we see before us in the field and in the laboratory, that sort of thing. And it's very hard to get that in court.

Exactly. But I'll tell you what changed my mind. And I got drafted by the Larry King staff and to be not just a guest, but to be Larry's regular guest host for about five years. And I remember one time Larry had to go somewhere. We went live that night on psychic detectives. So I started preparing for the show. And listen to this, Joe Scott Morgan, Mr. Nonbeliever. I started reading about a Burbank woman who had never had a psychic vision in her life. And she allegedly has a psychic vision, and I'm putting that in quotas, that leads detectives to the body of a murder victim. Now, this is what went down. This woman, Etta Louise Smith,

out of the blue, says that she had a vision about a body out in the middle of like a canyon, a rural area. And I think, as I recall, that she saw white. She keeps having the vision and it's so overwhelming. She gets members of her family to go with her and they go driving around. Joe Scott, they find the body of a beautiful young nurse. It was two days after the nurse's very highly publicized disappearance. As I recall it, the nurse was coming home from work one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at a hospital. She's at a red light and a bunch of guys that she didn't know drove up beside her and they kidnapped her and ended up beating her and dumping her body in a rural area above Lakeview Terrace. About 45 minutes after she finds the body with her family members,

they call police and the police are there. Now, she is there with two of her children and a niece. And they find the body and they lead police to the location in Lopez Canyon, out in the middle of a canyon, Joe Scott. Well, the police get there. And guess what they do? They arrest her. After hours and hours of interrogation, they arrest Etta Smith.

Nancy, let's listen to what Etta Smith told Oprah Winfrey. Well, what really brought it about was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio. And the night before, a girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped. And you felt what? Well, what really brought it about was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio. And the night before, a girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped and was missing in our area and I said no I hadn't heard about it so that day at work the following day at work I listened to the radio and they said that they

had found the lady's vehicle on a dead end street and that they were making a house to house search for her and as soon as they said house to house, it was as if I heard someone speaking to me, said she's not in a house. And as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly where she was. It was like there was a picture in front of me. Whoa. I didn't know the name of the street,

but I knew the area. I knew how to get there. And I just knew. So what did you do? Call police? Well, this was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was at work. I'd get off work at 3.30, and I'm arguing with myself all the way home

because when I get to a certain intersection, I either turn right to go home or I can turn left and I'll be right in front of the police department. So I'm saying, I should stop, and I'm saying, no, I should go home. Well, when I got to that intersection, I said, let them think I'm nuts. I have to stop. And it's exactly what I did. I talked to a homicide investigator, told him exactly the area. I said I knew that it's on the right-hand side going up this canyon road

and that there was a dirt path going towards this person and with the hill behind her. He said they had not checked that area, but that they would. And I said, well, you know, I have a feeling I will also. Inside, I wanted to be wrong, but I also felt that if I didn't check, I'd never know the truth. I'd never know if they checked, or I'd never know for sure whether I was right or wrong. And I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I was really wrong. So you went there yourself or you went there with them? No.

I went by, I didn't go with them. I went home. I told my children why I was late coming home. And they wanted to go with me. I told them I was going. And I feel bad about that now because at the time I wasn't thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken the children out to look for someone. But as he was saying, when you get in an area...

Because how old were your children? Nine, ten. Yeah. I took two children with me plus a niece who was 21 at the time. Yeah. And you found the body. Ultimately, yeah. Yeah, you found the body.

And you were saying what Charles was saying, that what? When you get close, because I knew when we got in the canyon, I could feel, I could feel the terror. I could feel vibrations of something that wasn't normal. I felt scared myself. You know, I could feel it. Just like he sensed Jennifer. Yeah. You sensed her. You know, I could feel it. Just like he sensed Jennifer. You sensed her. You said you felt her. Absolutely.

That is amazing. That is amazing. Police later arrested you because? Well, they said I knew too much about it not to have been involved because I had described in detail where she was, up this canyon road, on the side, on the right side, with a dirt path going to her and a hill behind her. I said, I had to have been there to have known that. So long story short, Jo Scott, she didn't take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested after hours and hours of interrogation. She sued LAPD, and she got a huge settlement from LAPD.

Now, when I read this story, and I read several more like it, and I did the Larry King show that night and I was questioning the cops that were on the case, cops, Joe Scott, police officers. And they're like, we don't understand it, but it happened. And Joe Scott, we did several shows like that. And we would have three or four cases on each show. And I got the opportunity to talk to the psychics, which I had never done before, to question the police officers, some of the victims' families. And I walked away going, okay, this does not make sense in my head. But it happened. It's just like the telephone and the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I don't know how it happens, but I know that it does happen. I know when I flick the light switch, the light comes on.

I don't have to think about, wow, how did we harness electricity? How do we get it into the room without burning the house down? I don't think about that, but I know that it happens, Joe Scott, and this happened. For us in investigations, we're so pragmatic about everything, and we spend so much of our time trying to cut through what is fact and what is fiction. We are lied to a lot, I think, in our field, trying to get to the truth, And we're biased in that sense in that we assume many times that most of the people that we're talking to

are trying to deceive us in some way. Well, I hear what you're saying, and that may be true. And I'm not saying that's not true. Your point. What I'm saying is if I can't understand it, if it's not two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in front of a jury.

Bam. End of story. If I can't two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in front of a jury. Bam. End of story. If I can't prove it at a crime lab or I can't see it, hear it, taste it, touch it, or smell it, it's not in my world until I spoke to Etta. With me right now, three of the most well-known psychics literally in the world. Noreen Renner, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois. First to you, Alison Dubois, tell me how you became a psychic. When did you first have any psychic vision or experience? It started when I was really little. I mean, I was six years old and I went to the first funeral I ever attended and it was my great grandfather's. And I came home from his funeral, and my mom tucked me into bed,

and I looked at the foot of my bed, and he was standing there, and he actually looked like he had no lines on his face, and he looked happy, and he said, tell your mom I'm not in pain anymore and I'm still with her because he had died of intestinal cancer, a very painful death. So I got out of bed, and I told my mom, Grandpa's in my room, and he says to tell you he's in my room. And he says, to tell you, he's not in pain anymore. And he's still with you. And she told me to go back to bed. So it was the seventies. They didn't know what to do with kids like me at the time. So that

was my first experience. You know, I'm, I'm looking at a photo of you right now, Alison Dubois, and I already know you, but I'm just looking at you. And when people think of mediums or psychics, they think of some crackpot dressed in a, I guess, a gypsy outfit over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. Okay. That's, that's what they think of. It couldn't, if you guys look up these three ladies, Noreen, Gail, and Allison, and I don't mean this, it's an insult. They're normal. They're regular people like you and me that have had an event in their lives that took them down the road of psychic medium. So tell me when your next vision was or your next, I don't know if I call it a vision or experience, Allison. You know, I had experiences through my

whole childhood. I guess when I was a teenager, when you get really turned up because of the hormones and all, I moved my bed from against the south wall over to the east wall, and my friend Barbara, who was spending the night that night, was like, what did you do that for? And I said, you know, that voice that I've heard my whole life told me to move the bed. And I said, so I moved the bed because it had already saved my life once before when I was 11. And that night a truck drove through my bedroom wall. And if I hadn't moved the bed, Barbara and I would have been under the truck. So my friends always just chalked it

up to, well, that's just Allison, you know. So I thought everybody could do what I did. They just didn't talk about it, like wink, wink, nod, nod. But it wasn't until I was interning in homicide to be a prosecutor that I realized that other people didn't necessarily see or hear what I was interning in homicide to be a prosecutor that I realized that other people didn't necessarily see or hear what I was seeing and hearing. And that was news to me. Also with me in addition to Alison Dubois at alisondubois.com, Noreen Renier and Gail St. John. Noreen, if it's not too intrusive, again, ladies, thank you to all three of you being with us. Noreen, when was your first, I don't know what else to call it, but psychic experience? I was all grown up, and I was pretty much a skeptic.

I thought all psychics told clients they would marry a tall, dark, handsome man, and they stole chickens or something of the sort. So I was very surprised when I started meditating. I didn't believe in psychic phenomena, and I went almost immediately into a trance and gave a Winnebago Indian who was at the table with my girlfriend who was also skeptic, an ex-nun, information. Hold on. I've got two skeptics and one is an ex-nun. You know, that just reminds me. Let me tell you, Noreen, when I was a Fed, before I became a felony prosecutor,

I was prosecuting some people with the Federal Trade Commission in the Consumer Protection Antitrust Division. And it was a weight loss product, which I knew from examining and speaking to scientists had nothing in it at all, that would be a weight loss, it's something called GWAR, G-U-A-R. I've never had a chance to work that into a conversation since that time. But GWAR kind of expands in your stomach and makes you feel full for a minute. And then basically no, nothing to make you lose weight. Then I started sifting through all the letters of complaints. And I found one letter from a nun that swore she lost 40 pounds using whatever it was.

I don't even remember the name of it. And I took it into my boss's office. I was holding. I'm like, we're screwed because this nun says this worked and she used it for six months. And let me tell you something. You put this nun up on that witness stand, it's over. Okay, we got to rethink this whole thing.

You're telling me you're sitting there with an ex-nun and what happened? Well, she was a disbeliever and everything too. So after the episode, we got rid of Joanne and said, did you believe this stuff? I said, no, she must've done something to us. So we decided to meet that night. Her husband worked late. She was out of the convent now like 10 years and had been in the convent for about 10 years. And we started doing what the books were talking about. We would practice. So that's how it began. And then at work, I couldn't think. I just wanted to see if it worked. And I was in PR and advertising,

so I could bring clients to Hyatt Hotel and show them in case they wanted to rent a lecture hall or something. And I would rush them to lunch and say, look, I really don't believe in this, but I read if you hold a person's rings or watch and you put it to your forehead, you can. And so I'd be grabbing their watch or ring off to practice on people I didn't know, and it was working. And, of course, I got fired. I think not a very good psychic. I got three months later.

And so that's when I went full-time, dressed like a gypsy, and started in the nightclub. I was still trying to prove that this really was real. And then science got involved, Duke University university a lot of testing at ryan research and i i still love testing my mind of what it can do and i do still a lot of work and i'm working a lot now in south africa of all places okay i i'm just taking all of this in gail saint john also with me in addition to allison dubois and noreen reneir gail saint john you and i've spoken many many times although guys on level, I have not consulted with Gail St. John. I'm still clinging to the fact

that this may not exist, even though I know that it has actually happened. Gail St. John, I want to hear your first so-called, I don't know what else to call it unless you ladies can enlighten me, psychic experience? Well, I vividly remember I was about four years old. My mother was outside talking to the neighbor. We're talking about the 1960s, so you can kind of picture how that is. I'm two houses down playing with the other little girl. We're just having a great time. Like, you know, real little kids are doing and, and watching our moms talk. And I look up at her house and it was on fire. And I'm at an age where, you know, comprehension

isn't the greatest, but I, so I look down, I look up again and the house is on fire. Now at this point, I'm scared. I'm running home. As I'm running back, you know, just quickly, I glance again, the house is not on fire and I'm running up to my mom and I'm yelling, mom, mom, mom, mom. And she's trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute. And she shuffles me into the house. I think she said something to the neighbor. I think she got hurt. And we get into the house and she said, what, what, what are you hollering about fire? I said, I saw the to the neighbor. I think she got hurt. And we get into the house and she said, what, what, what are you hollering about fire? I said, I saw the house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house on fire. She said, it's not on fire.

And I insisted, I said, I saw it, but I know it's gone now. She said, you like, what exactly did you see? And I said, it was burning. There was smoke. I saw people there and then I said then it was all gone she said um she said you know you need to not say these things I'm like I mean I mean I can't say these things and my grandmother came out of the other room she goes we don't talk about this this has been in our family we don't you don't say these things I was so confused at that point I let it go three days later their house burned down. And then that left me with the strangest of feelings at such a young age of like, what if somebody would have,

and thank goodness, nobody got hurt in the fire. They all got out. But what if, what if somebody had gotten hurt and I would have been responsible because I knew I could have warned them. And I lived with a guilt for quite some time in trying to deal with disability and where's that line. Hi, Nancy Grace here. Have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work, a crush? 57% of Americans admit to keeping an eye on their own online reputation. 46% admit to using the internet to look up somebody from their past. But Google and Facebook, the tip of the iceberg when it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new website called Truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop on millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search through hundreds of millions of public

records in a matter of minutes. Truthfinder members can literally begin searching in seconds for sensitive data like criminal, traffic, arrest records. Before you bring someone new into your life and around the people you care for, your children, consider using Truthfinder. What you find may astound you. Go to truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy right away to start searching. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Truthfinder.com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are speaking with three renowned so-called psychic detectives, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois.

With me, death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan Duke, and Jackie Howard. I want to go to Noreen Renier. Noreen, do you recall a particular case that you worked on? This case dealt with a victim that is last name Sullivan that was ultimately discovered dead. It was a missing person case and an agent with the Montana Department of Justice, the DOJ, contacted you way back after watching you on television.

He was skeptical, he says. He met you, flew to Florida to meet you to see if you were the real deal. He says he gave you no information about the unsolved case and wanted to find out if you could possibly help find a Montana State Auditor, Walter Sullivan. Noreen, do you recall the Sullivan case out of Montana? Yes, I do. I got a phone call from them. They had Detective River Yubi

had seen me on television and wanted to know how I worked. And I told them that usually the police, because I worked all over the United States, would send me something off the victim that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a shoe or belt buckle or something. And they didn't want to send the evidence they had, so they flew out. And usually I do things over the phone, so I was surprised to see them with a camera, and they videotaped the session, and they would give me no feedback. Usually on the phone I just ask if it's a homicide or a missing person case. I don't ask for their name because the skeptics always say that we look it up

and we know everything about the person. So I never know the name of the victim until I start the case. So they told me the name of the victim, and I described him to make sure I was tuned in. I think I was holding something of the victims, did a bunch on him, and they were very bad at giving me feedback. And usually I just like to know if I'm in the right zone. Did he have the ball here, however I described him, but no feedback whatsoever. And then they gave me the projectile, the bullet that he had been shot with,

and then I got all sorts of new pictures. I saw three men, and I remember my head hurting terribly. I was outside of a blue building walking towards it when these men jumped me, and they started hitting me. And the one in the head hurt me the most. I described there was two Mexicans, and then the third man would just – I have an artist. I always work with an artist when we have homicide cases, so it helps the police with the elimination of suspects. So the artist was drawing the faces I was seeing. But I remember my head hurting so badly. Even after I came out of my trance, I was still hurting. After describing the three men, the two Mexicans and the other older man, they just started asking me questions. And then I would respond to the questions, how he was killed, why he was

killed. I saw a lot of numbers around the victim, and it turned out that he was into finance a great deal. I don't remember everything, but they were just very pleased with what I gave them. I forgot what else they wanted to know. Oh, I had to draw things for them. Oh, they wanted to know what the gun looked like, and I was trying to tell them that you had to use two hands on it. And they still couldn't understand. So I got a piece of paper and a pen and drew it. It turned out it was like a K-9. I still don't know guns, but I drew it just like it was. So they were very happy with all the evidence. Wow. I mean, I did a lot more, but I can't remember everything. And I don't feel that I ever solved crimes. I think that I'm like a, I'm a tool. And if they know how to use me right, and a lot of

police don't, if they know how to use me, and I try to write how best I work, I'm just a tool for them to get more evidence. And that's what they bring to court. Wow. Back to our skeptic, Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Okay, Joe Scott, did you hear that? Oh yeah, I heard it, Nancy. Heard it loud and clear. And for all I know, it could just be a random shot in the dark. So you're going to have to prove it to me. And I'm not buying it. I'm not. There's too much. There's too much at risk here. There's too much. Joe Scott, hold on.

You know what? That's what they said the first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll let you chew on that for a few moments. Alison Dubois, Gail St. John, Noreen Renier with us. Alison Dubois, you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk about Jackie Hartman. And remember, everybody, Allison Dubois actually worked at the Maricopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact, one of her tasks was organizing crime scene photos.

I want to talk to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman, a 19-year-old. What do you recall about that case, Allison Dubois? Well, I was taken to the last place she was seen, which was kind of like a gas station convenience store. And the first thing that I picked up was that she went willingly. So then the next piece of information that I wrote down was date rate gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks at this point. I said, you can hear helicopters overhead where her body is, so they're looking in the right area. I said, there's a small barbecue nearby where you have like a cookout. Her body was rolled down a hill outside the city limits. I said the cell phone tower would be how they find her, and then I let them know that they would find her body in two weeks,

which they did find her body in exactly two weeks. Allison Dubois is referring to the case of Jackie Hartman, a 19-year-old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in 2007. Within hours of the time Dubois said it would be found. Jackie Hartman's date on the night of her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl, Jackie Hartman, 19-year-old nursing student. Very interesting that she tells police that the victim, Jackie, went with her killer willingly, that it was a date rape, to find the victim through cell phone records,

specifically that she would be found in two weeks. She was found 13 days and 20-something hours, the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. It's, what do you have to say to your critics, Allison? You know, I, half of my friends are cops and county attorneys, prosecutors. So I'm critical of myself. So I know what information they need that can actually be helpful and what's just fluff, you know, that some psychics give and they get pulled into the emotional state of the victim. I try to go through the killer myself instead of the victim. But for people who don't believe, it's not, it really doesn't change my

life if they don't believe, you know, I mean. At the end of the day, we all die and everybody finds out that there's life after death and that what we're doing to help the police when they hit a wall, we're just a last resort. We don't want to be their first choice of weapon. It's a lot of work for us and it takes an emotional toll on us. I've never charged to work a case because I've been so blessed in life. It's just kind of how I've given back, but that's just personally how I've approached it. So, you know, as far as working cases, there was no monetary gain. And I guess one could say, well, you got a television show about you because of it and you did well.

And I would argue that, well, then you're just proving that I'm a psychic, because then I knew I was going to become rich off of working cases, you know, so they can't have it both ways. And usually skeptics like to argue it so that no matter what we say or what we do, it's never going to be enough evidence or, or impressive enough. And so for those people, I don't really I don't bother. With me, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Allison Dubois, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. My buddy Alan Duke joining me from LA and Jackie Howard here in the studio. Joe Scott Morgan, you're chomping at the bit. Weigh in, Joe Scott. Yeah, I got to tell you, you know, you mentioned fingerprints a moment ago. Somebody said, hey, you know, we can't use these. You're right,

you can't use them because it can't be quantified and it can't be proved. You have to be able to replicate this over and over and over using the same test. And that's how we validate things in forensic science and in science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor. Now, I want to speak with Gail St. John, who is a renowned psychic. And she was actually drawn to the spot where little Kelly Anthony's body was found months before the body was found and even has video to prove it. She came forward to say she was not surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive, that she had been in that area and drawn to that area months before. Gail St. John and her search team, the so-called The Body Hunters, went to Orlando to search for Kelly,

and on their very first day, out of nowhere, she leads them on a blind drive to this spot gail saint john can you even explain what's going on in your mind when you have this sort of experience you know i'm not sure that there's anything in a sense that you could say is is totally going on except for it's almost your sort of trance like semi-trance You're hearing, you're feeling things from the other side, as well as obviously if you're driving, you have to be very conscious and aware of your driving. But it's something I've always done is that blind drive. I get to an area and I go to where the person was last seen,

and then I pick up on what happened. How do I get to their body? And I just allow myself to drive where the feeling gets stronger. If you've ever played that hot and cold game when you were a kid. Yes. That's what it feels like. Really? I'm going left, left. Nope, nope, not losing the feeling, losing the feeling. Go the other direction. Yep, yep, it's getting stronger going this way. And you follow. Gail, what can you tell me about Stephen Hoff? Stephen Hoff was a person that they suspected he had left suicide and had left a note. They had had searchers out several times looking for him. He'd been missing around eight weeks at the time that our team was called out.

Now, this was a team case. So you have to tread lightly on this because you're going out as a canine handler called out by police. Sort of a conflict of interest with the two. They don't see the psychic and they don't know that I'm psychic. They don't have any information on this. They're calling us out to do a search. They don't even know if he's in this area. And it's a very large preserve area. And we get out there on that case. I run my canine. I got some information off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's a lot to running a canine. You just don't turn your dog loose and go, hey, yeah,

you got to understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave me some signs in an area that I was told to go over into. And I had two other backup handlers with me and he kind of told me a story in what he was doing but my feelings were overriding some of this now by this time the park is getting very busy with people walking on trails I'm thinking okay let's think about logics here I'm going to turn a canine loose we've got people walking in in this area over here and they're walking dogs it's going to turn a canine loose. We've got people walking in this area over here and they're walking dogs. It's going to be a problem. It's going to be a problem. So what finally happened?

I turned and looked at the two girls with me and they sort of kind of knew that I did some psychic stuff. But listen, we're all about canines right there. You know, that's the bottom line. So and I said, I'm going to put my dog up. They said, what? I said I said, I'm going to put my dog up. And he said, what? I said, yeah, I'm going to put my dog up. I want to walk around on foot over here.

Okay. So we put the canine up and went walking around. And I knew, you know, I said, I got to turn this on. This has got to happen. I got to, you know, nip this in the bud right now. We got to find this guy. I just turned it on. I said, I don't know what to, you know nip this in the bud right now we gotta find this guy I just turned it on I said I don't know what to you know I'm not even gonna say anything to my my backup handlers I just

turned it on went with my feelings began walking going in different places and they're running behind me going Gail what's going on what's going what are you doing what slow down I couldn't I couldn't slow down by that point it was so strong the pull I just went and kept walking um I can't hold back what happened I walked right up on his body walked right up on him wow okay guys Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois, Alison Dubois um could you tell me you told me your first experience, but what was your most powerful psychic experience? I heard a voice say, your dad's going to die at 67 of a massive heart attack. So I sent my dad to all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him.

And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for 50 years. He was in good shape. And he died at 67 of a massive heart attack. And I think that one was probably the most profound because it was my father. Wow, you're really hitting a nerve. I lost my dad and I just miss him so much. Noreen Renier, what was your most powerful psychic experience? Mine was, of course, my police work. For the first five years, all I did was homicide because I'm

really bad with left and right and I can get lost in a Kmart. So I never tried to find people. I just told everybody I'm homicide. Well, an FBI agent's wife that knew about my work contacted me and her brother was missing

in an airplane and at first I didn't want to do it I kept saying no I don't do that and then finally she brought me some stuff that he had touched a wallet and a coin thing and I did the case and I gave longitude and latitude

and the initials of the cities. And they found in the plane that it was in a plane, of course, and it hadn't exploded. And I remember visually seeing somebody carrying something and place it under a tree and then walking away. And then I opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him to be alive. I'm not doing this anymore. And when they found the airplane, they had this woman sitting under a tree like somebody had carried her there. And her brother had walked several yards away. But that was my most, because I had never been into missing people.

And it was a whole new, and I'm really good at it now. Wow. Gail St. John, you told me how you initially realized that you had this extrasensory perception. What was your most profound, your most powerful, I guess, psychic experience or vision? I really got to say it concerned my grandmother. She was living with us at the time. And two days prior to her passing, I was told about it. And it was a semi-dream state, but I was very conscious of what was going on. I think because at the time I was 14 years old, I really fought it and it was painful and I wanted to ignore it. And two days later, she passed away. And that's

very powerful and painful and so many things all at the same time. With me, renowned psychics, so-called psychic detectives, Noreen Renier, Gail St. John, Alison Dubois, and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank you for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess you and I will continue putting forth hard evidence, as we call it. But it's very hard to put on blinders and try to ignore the stories that have been factually corroborated from Alison Dubois, Gail St. John, and Noreen Renier. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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