Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Do "Zoo Wars" end in Joe Exotic murder for hire? Plot thickens around 'Tiger King.'

Episode Date: April 2, 2020

The hit Netflix docuseries "Tiger King" showcases the zoo wars between two big cat sanctuaries with very different philosophies of operations.Joe Exotic, the Tiger King, is now in prison, convicted of murder for hire. His rival, Carole Baskin, is coming under scrutiny for the disappearance of her husband. The one thing most of those in the series can agree on, is they aren't happy with the outcome.Joining Nancy Grace today: Sheriff Chad Chronister - Sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida Dr Grey Stafford - Author of "ZOOmility: Keeper tales of training with positive reinforcement", host "Zoo Logic" podcast Jason Oshins - New York Defense Attorney Bruce Johnson - Owner ISP Investigations-Master Sgt Region One Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro Area (Ret) Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Michael Kaplan - New York Post Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace premieres March 9th only on Fox Nation. Who knew that the Grudge Fest runs so deeply in the world of zoos and animal sanctuaries in our own country? That it runs so deeply, it leads to hitmen, thousands of dollars exchanged in order to knock off, rub out, put the head in a jar of a famous animal rights activist who runs an animal sanctuary, is the jealousy, the greed, the envy, the hatred, the anger, so intense, they are willing to kill? We're talking about none other than the flamboyant Joe Exotic,

a.k.a. Passage, a.k.a. Shrevel. What is his real name? And why would he demand Carol Baskin's head, quote, in a jar? His words, not mine. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A day at the zoo. That's a specialty with me and my twins, my husband. Every time we go to a different city, we go to the zoo.

And it's awesome. I'll never forget the zoo at the Bronx. There are primates at the San Diego Zoo. It goes on and on and on. But I normally don't think of hitmen demanding somebody's head in a jar when I think of taking the children to the zoo. But all that has changed with the name Joe Exotic, not his real name. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Let's kick it off, Jackie. Roll that beautiful sound. A zookeeper went to prison for murder for hire. There are more captive tigers in the U.S. than there are in the wild throughout the world. They old people are nuts, man. They're all crazy. I'm sure y'all got a story to tell.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name's Joe Exotic and this is Sarge. He was like a mythical character living out in the middle of Oklahoma who owned 1,200 tigers and lions and bears and... Come here love me matt spoken good looking love to party and have fun i don't think we're done blowing up today i don't think you are they have a heart and a soul and a mind i've learned from them but carol baskin keeps saying i can't have these tigers if he ever had an enemy in his life it was carol baskin hey all you cool cats and kittens it's car Carol at Big Cat Rescue. Carol is the Mother Teresa of cats. We will end the private possession of these cats.

This is my way of living, and nobody's going to tell me any otherwise. Well, I don't know about that. What you're hearing right there is from Netflix, Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness. Yeah, that's a show on Netflix, Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness. Yeah, that's a show on Netflix, but I'm talking about the real world and how many dead bodies are gonna pile up before this thing is all sorted out.

Again, thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel to figure out how murder and mayhem finds its way into, as we call it, a zoo. With me, special guest, the Sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida, Sheriff Chad Chronister. Dr. Gray Stafford, Director of Conservation at Wildlife World Zoo. Formerly, now, author of Zoo-Mility, Keeper Tales of Training with Positive Reinforcement. Just so you know, we're talking about Tigers, Gray Stafford,

and we'll get to that positive reinforcement later. Renowned defense attorney Jason Ocean is joining me out of the New York jurisdiction. Bruce Johnson, ISP Investigations, Master Sergeant, Region 1 Crime Scene Commander, Chicago Metro retired. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst in Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. But right now, to the New York Post investigative reporter, Michael Kaplan. I want to start with you on who is Joe Exotic?

Who is that? Well, you know, he's this guy that owns, he owned a roadside zoo where you were able to go and pet, you know, lion cubs. And, you know, then he was doing this roadside magic show where he'd, you know, show up at shopping malls and do this sort of cut rate Siegfried and Roy deal. You know, he had two husbands at once. And he, you know, he was an interesting, colorful, weirdly charismatic guy. And he developed this vendetta against this woman named Carol Baskin and wanted to have

her murdered. And he hired one person to murder her. And that that did not work out. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You get in the cart before the horse michael caplan let me figure this out joe exotic is number one not his real name um correct what's his real name his real name is his his last name is um his last name is exactly thank you but he's got a much longer name than that uh that he does not roll off the tongue no it really doesn't and to cheryl mccollum joining me uh cold case

research institute cheryl what can you tell me about his zoo it's a private zoo, Nancy, where he has these tigers. He's got bears. He's got monkeys. He's got all these wonderful animals that people can come and see. But it's his private property. It's his private zoo. A private zoo. You know, to you, Dr. Grace Stafford, what's the name of your podcast?

It's called Zoologic. Thank you for asking. Right, Zoologic. And you were at Wildlife World Zoo. uh what's the name of your podcast it's called zoo logic thank you for asking right zoo logic and you were at wildlife world zoo as a matter of fact that's where i met you when i was out in arizona covering the jody areas trial for months on end and i got a good look at that was a wildlife world zoo was that a private zoo it privately, yes. It's a for-profit institution, but it is accredited by National Trade Association. Okay. TMI.

Is it a private zoo? Because I'm trying to understand, what's the difference between a private zoo and a public zoo? Well, very often it's just a matter of tax status. Zoos are held to the same standards. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. Because when I saw Wildlife World Zoo, it was, and I loved it, by the way, it was different from any zoo I had ever seen, such as the Atlanta Zoo or the Bronx Zoo or the San Diego Zoo.

It was very different in many, many ways. But let me get back to Joe Exotic. What does that mean, a private zoo? In my mind, as a former prosecutor, it immediately tells me there's not as much governmental regulation. That's actually not true, because if they're open to the public, they're subject to USDA inspections. These are random inspections. And so there's a minimum set of requirements under the Animal Welfare Act that all zoos, if they're open to the public, are held to. Okay, I'll do a little quick research here to you, Kaplan. Real name, Joe Exotic,

a.k.a. Joseph Allen Muldono Passage, a.k.a. Joseph Shrevel. And you know, to you, Jason Oceans, you're the defense attorney joining me. I like nothing better than to read an indictment in front of the jury and read all the aliases of the defendant. Because very rarely does anybody on the jury have more than one name. I mean, I have one name. I think you have one name. But when somebody starts adopting different names and going by them, you've got to wonder why, Jason Oceans. Well, he's a performer. He's, you know,

he's a character, you know, bigger than life. That's what you do. You change your name when you're part of Hollywood. Really? Yeah, of course. No one has their real name. Well, I never thought of being a zookeeper as being part of Hollywood, but okay, your interpretation, not mine.

Hey, Creed and Roy, I mean, that's the aura you're trying to create now. You mean that's not their real names? I mean, you don't want to be Joe Regular. Take a listen to our friends at KFOR. This is News 4 Reporter speaking. Joseph Maldonado Passage, better known as Oklahoma's Tiger Guy, Joe Exotic, indicted by a federal grand jury Wednesday on two counts of hiring someone to commit murder. The former owner of the Greater Wynnewood Animal Park,

a 2016 presidential hopeful, and most recently Oklahoma libertarian gubernatorial candidate... I ain't cutting my hair. I ain't changing the way I dress. ...arrested by U.S. Marshals in Florida Friday. Current park owners say Maldonado Passage was kicked off the property months back and hasn't owned the zoo for several years. But it was several years ago, beginning in February 2014, that according to court documents

Maldonado Passage began posting threats on Facebook and YouTube like this one. Never, ever, ever see me face to face ever, ever, ever again. Did you know that you were the subject of his possible plot? He's been threatening me for years, so there's no doubt in anybody's mind. He knows him, that he intended to kill me. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a guy called Joe Exotic. He named himself Joe Exotic, not his real name. Real name's Shrevel, and he's the subject of a brand-new Netflix hit called Tiger King, Murder, Mayhem, and Madness, but it's real.

It's not just a show, a program on Netflix. This is real. You were just hearing where Joe Exotic says, never, ever, ever, ever, ever. I don't know how many nevers, but bottom line, never should Carol Beskin see Joe Exotic. It sounds like nanny nanny boo boo on the playground. But the reality is, take a listen to part of the Netflix doc. Take a listen to this.

Joe brought it up several times. I know anybody can kill the lady. I just put it off as, you know, bullshit. I came into the office one day and he's like, I got this crossbow. You can use this on her nature trail, wherever she walks. You shoot her with this and nobody will ever see you.

I'm like, what the fuck? Okay, I can see me walking around Florida with a camouflage suit on. Okay, but a fucking crossbow? Give me a break. Alan Glover, he's an old-time employee of Jeff. Jeff knows him real well. Supposedly, since he has a teardrop tattoo, he's killed somebody before. Well, Joe came to me one day, just out of the blue.

He says, you think Alan could kill somebody? I said, is he capable of it? He said, of course, who's not? I said, I'll cut his head off for you if you want. And he was all into that. I said, would you like me to bring it back? No, no, get rid of it in the swamp. I'm like, okay.

Will do. Wow. Okay, so how did it suddenly go to Dr. Bethany Marshall from making threats? As I said, it sounds like nanny nanny boo boo on the playground. You better not ever, ever, never, never, never times 10 to infinity. As I say to the twins, infinity. See me face to face to actually speaking to someone about killing Carol Baskin with a crossbow. First of all, hold on. Let me lay the foundation. Michael Kaplan, who was Carol Baskin as it relates to Joe Exotic?

In a nutshell, in a nutshell. She owns a place called Big Cat Rescue, which is designed to as an animal refuge, you know, for for big cats, for lions and tigers and the like. And she is a big advocate against people who raise who have, you know, zoos where you can go and pet the cubs because she believes that it's animal abuse. And she went after Joe and he didn't like it. He know that's his whole business is based on being able to pet you know these cubs and that's why people go there and she went after him and to you Dr. Grace Stafford of Zoologic podcast Dr. Stafford what was it that he Joe Exotic was doing that drove Carol Baskin the fairy godmother to cats. So crazy.

Well, part of it was that he was raising cubs and using them for photo opportunities when they're very young, very small, and raising a lot of money that way. And she didn't appreciate the uncontrolled breeding and the use of those animals from a welfare standpoint. Well, you know, that's a lot of big words. I think what you're saying, let me just boil it down to regular people talk. He gets the baby tigers and takes them out to malls and basically wherever anybody will pay him for photo ops. And then the baby tigers, I'm calling the babies.

I'm sure you have a zoological name for them that's proper then get human germs that can make them ill and they're treated more like um have you ever seen dumbo let's really break it down have you ever seen dumbo great uh only when i was a kid okay well you need to refresh yourself with a new one um or you've heard stories, forget Walt Disney, stories where animals are kept in chains and mistreated. She's worried about the way the tigers are treated. She doesn't want them to be just a prop in a show. It's my understanding of her anger toward him. Am I right or wrong?

Tell me. What are my feelings? Well, I think she had a personal angst against him, but she has been anti-zoo for all of her public career. She actively works against modern zoos that do credible things, not just people like Joe Exotic. Okay, we're getting off on a tangent.

Let's get out of the weeds and back in the middle of the road. What was it about Joe Exotic she hated in a nutshell, Gray Stafford? Uncontrolled breeding and, from her point of view, exploiting animals for months. Got it. Thank you. You know what? Once you got your Ph.D., you really started talking a lot more.

But that's a whole other can of worms. So another issue happened to Michael Kaplan as it relates to Joe Exotic. Carol Baskin sued him for what? She discovered she was going after him, and he didn't like it, so he changed the name of his traveling show to be very similar to hers. I mean, her company is called Big Cat Rescue, and his show had the words Big Cat Rescue in it, and the phone number was very similar to hers, and she sued him for copyright infringement.

So she sues him. She's going after him for the way she perceives he treats the tigers, the cats, as you guys call them. And he doesn't like it. So to get back at her, he renames it. Your words, not mine, Michael Kaplan, New York Post. He renames his show Big Cat, and it makes her mad that she sues him for infringement on the name of her wildlife sanctuary. I think that's the way it all goes down. Take a listen to this from Netflix.

Joe put a picture of her property on Facebook, and it said, finally found where the bitch lives. What are you doing? You know, what are you stupid? I love the cute hat. Truth be told, it'd be better for the animal industry if Carol was dead.

Little hearts on the bottom. But it started to concern me enough when I realized Joe's become a complete liability. We're not done yet. We're still going to dig up Carol's ass. Before I'm done with this, I'm going to have the bitch's head in a jar. Joe probably thought I was loyal to him and I would never turn on him. I told Lauren, I said, you know what?

I'm calling James Gerritsen and I want to meet. So Jeff Lowe decided, hey, let's meet at Applebee's. Jeff Lowe claims Joe's doing all this illegal stuff he said i wanted to get rid of that so you want to get out of that headache and i said call carol baskin and tell her for half a million bucks i will hand her joe on a silver platter with all the crimes i know he's committed. Wow, we're hearing a lot. But the words that stuck out in my mind that really made me sit up straight, Sheriff Chad Chronister, the sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida,

and Carol Baskin's sanctuary there. Sheriff, the words, I want her head in a jar, doesn't that sound a lot like a terroristic threat to you, Sheriff? 100%. But I tell you, if you watch the documentary, everyone on there is eccentric and complicated. But the sad part is it's all real life. Now, I was just going to say that to you, Sheriff. With me, special guest Sheriff Chad Chronister, the elected sheriff there in Hillsborough County, Florida. Sheriff Chronister, again, thank there in Hillsborough County, Florida.

You know, Sheriff Chronister, again, thank you for being with us. I thought you were going to say everybody in this scenario is eccentric. Well, that may well be true. But calling for somebody's head in a jar goes beyond. It crosses the line of eccentricity to a terroristic threat. What exactly? We've been talking about this a lot lately, terroristic threats, as it relates to coronavirus hoaxes and scares.

Dr. – excuse me, Sheriff Chronister, when is something a terroristic threat as opposed to just bragging and boasting? Well, with any type of threat, the same threshold remains, and that's when you take an overt act to carry out that threat. That's when it becomes problematic. That's when it becomes criminal. When you threaten it verbally or an email, text, a phone call, and then you commit an overt act. It can be sending an email. It can be leaving a phone message. When you actually start to do something about the overt threat. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. I have investigated and prosecuted literally

thousands of felony cases. I have covered literally thousands of cases of missing people, adults and children, unsolved homicides, violent crimes. My question is, what can we do about it? I don't want to just sit back and report on it. I want to take action. And I know you must feel the same way. And here is the news. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com. This book is for everyone. It even includes how to stay safe while you travel, in hotels, if you're abroad. What do you do to make sure you come home safely to your family? Don't be a victim fighting back against America's crime wave. Available for pre-order now. CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now and know that portions of our proceeds

goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about, as he titles himself, Joe Exotic. Take a listen to our friends over at Netflix. I heard that Joe tried to hire someone to kill Carol. He's been trying to get somebody to kill Carol for years. All right?

When Jeff came along, everybody thought Jeff was this multimillionaire and had all this money and blah blah blah blah and whenever Jeff got around Joe got a big head and and and those two were trying to tear a whack why are you so convinced of that because I was the only one there you were actually there yeah the first time I met and discussed the whole murder for hire, we're sitting in that meeting. Joe's in his little office back there. Jeff was right here. And they were talking about the easiest way to kill Carol. Hey, all you cool cats and kittens, it's Carol from Big Cat Rescue.

There was a day where she was riding her bicycle down a bicycle path. And she's riding like the Wicked Witch of the West. And Joe says, look at this bitch. She rides this entire bike trail and there's nobody around. He says, that's where you got to hit her. That's where I got to get it. Somebody take a shot from the bushes and get her right there. Okay. Out to you, Cheryl McCollum. This is no longer just bragging. This is real. They're taking a look at her bike trail where she walks in bikes every day to pick out the location to murder her, all because of this lawsuit, which I might add, she won about a million-dollar verdict. So that is starting to sound real based on what Sheriff Chad Chronister just said.

That's an overt act. You're not just saying, I want her head in a jar. You're saying, let's pick out her bike path. This is where we can kill her. They are plotting. They are plotting. They are planning. They are mapping this thing out. Joe is definitely looking at, you know, on Google Earth.

He's visited the place. He's telling people what he wants done to her, where he wants it done to her. And they're talking about money. That's a straight up murder for hire. You're right. As you say, a straight up murder for hire because he's gone beyond just bra talking about money. That's a straight-up murder for hire. You're right. As you say, a straight-up murder for hire, because he's gone beyond just bragging about it. Listen to our friends at Netflix.

And then Jeff Lowe goes to Good Work and shows a bike path right by Big Cat Rescue and stuff. And he's like, oh, you get to sit right here and then shoot her while she's riding her bike. So Jeff Lowe knew more about the stomatics than anything. That was because I was the only one smart enough shoot her while she's riding a bike. So Jeff Lowe knew more about the schematics than anything. That was because I was the only one smart enough to bring up the picture on Google Earth and show it to Travis.

Travis says, I can shoot it from there, I can shoot it from there. And Joe's like, you're not shooting it because you're my husband and you'll go to jail forever. I was back in my business because none of that's on my computer. It's on Jeff Lowe. But Jeff Lowe said time to remove that all from his computer now.

Joe talked about killing this woman. If it wasn't a daily basis, it was definitely every week. Well, the bitch still lives another day and says, I'll find somebody. He just wasn't shy about it. You're hearing our friends at Netflix in their new program, Tiger King Murder, Mayhem and Madness. That's a program. This is real. So now to you joining us, Bruce Johnson.

Bruce, owner of ISP Investigations, former crime scene commander in Chicago. Bruce, now he's got the route, he's called for her head in a jar, and he's looked up the route for her murder on Google Earth, and it's passing it over to a would-be hitman. That makes out a bona fide terroristic threat, does it not, Bruce? Yes, it does. But as the sheriff mentioned earlier, there are many characters to this plot. And a lot of the stuff that Carol was doing was not 100 percent innocent either. Number one, she has a missing husband that wasn't fully investigated, according to the story. Jeff is a convicted felon. His partner that brought into the scene with the teardrop tattoo on his eye possibly indicating he's done a murder is his best, is Jeff's best friend. So you've got this circle of people that are all. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute, Bruce Johnson, Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of Cold Case Research Institute, trying to put this thing back together again. Who do you think Joe Exotic's going to hang around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? Of course, they're all eccentric, as you guys are saying it. That's certainly a euphemism, putting perfume on the pig. Nobody's in this with clean hands.

But the reality is we're talking about a murder plan, Cheryl. That is set apart from all of the other eccentricities. Would you not agree? I agree. And as my former prosecutor used to say, swans don't swim in a sewer. If you are looking for somebody to do something for you, like a murder for hire,

you're clearly going to go to the guy that you think can pull it off, which used to be in a gang or used to be in prison. That's who you're going to go to the guy that you think can pull it off, which used to be in a gang or used to be in prison, that's who you're going to go to. You know, I forgot I used to say that to juries until you reminded me swans don't swim in a sewer. Well put, Cheryl McCollum. So take a listen to this as the murder for hire plot thickens. All I knew is Joe had already picked Alan Glover for the hit. So I told the FBI Glover was going to actually do it. Nobody at the park knew about the undercover stuff, not even Jeff Lowe. I was sitting at my desk when the phone rang and it was FBI. They felt there was an effort by Joe to kill Carol.

So when I'm told, well, there's a credible threat now, I'm like, there's been a credible threat all of this time. You just caught on to it in the last few days. We were aware that this was a possibility. It's just that call seriously elevated this. We reached out to Ms. Baskin in, I want to say, November 2017. And this was at the point where we'd heard some recorded phone calls and conversations between Mr. Gerritsen and Mr. Maldonado Passage, indicating that there was, in fact, a plot coming together. If Mr. Glover was leaving to commit this murder, Mr. Gerritsen would have knowledge of that. Straight out to New York Post investigative reporter Michael Kaplan. Michael, how much money are we talking about? How much did Joe Exotic,

a.k.a. Shreveld, a.k.a. Passage, offer to pay? How much did he actually pay for the hit on Carole Baskin, the godmother of cats? It was $3,000 down payment. I think more to come after the job was done. So this guy took the $3,000. That's not that much, Kaplan. $3,000? I can offer you for $3,000? Don't do it. I mean, you know, you can max out your credit cards and get that much.

Okay, I won't. So he actually, though, paid over several thousand dollars. How much did he actually hand over for the hit? My understanding is it was three grand. That's what he gave. I don't know what the total sum was going to be, honestly. So that was kind of like a down payment. Do you remember the phrase layaway? You'd give, let's just pretend, Sears Roebuck, you know, $15 for your sweater. So by Christmas time, you could pay the whole thing off uh so he put up down $3,000 on the hit with the rest guaranteed after the murder is that the way it

worked Michael Kaplan I understand it I've never done it before but that's my understanding well I think you get the basic nuts and bolts of the whole thing you know one thing that Carol Baskin who we call today and doesn't want to speak, and I'll tell you why later, Sheriff Chad Chronister joining me, special guest out of, he's the elected sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida, when she said, hey, this has been happening for years, but you guys just caught on to it. Well, had she ever made a formal complaint to police about him and death threats? She did not. We didn't have, we weren't working anything here on the local level. Now, because it was made over state lines, it's my understanding that the feds were involved with it, but we were never notified of it here

locally. I mean, Sheriff Chronister, I appreciate her fear that this has been, threats have been going on for years, but to then suddenly uh state hey you guys just caught onto it well you know what if you want the cops to know something that's why we have 9-1-1 we are talking go ahead sheriff absolutely 100 no different than any other areas as a local law force agency if we believe someone's life is in immediate fear or danger we're going to go there we'll assign someone to that person 24 hours a day. We're not going to let any harm come to anybody. And to go back to your question about how much, he was supposed to pay him $5,000. He could only come up with three. Well, I guess he better get right back to the mall with all

those baby tiger cubs. Guys, this guy did not make it a secret. He publicly called for Carol Baskin, the victim in this case, head in a jar. Well, that was not lost on a jury. Take a listen to our friends at News 9 Oklahoma City, Sylvia Corkill. We told you that it could take some time in order for the jury to come back with its verdict, seeing that there were 19 counts. After just three short hours, nearly four hours, the jury came back finding Joseph Maldonado Passage guilty on all 19 counts. However, after just three short hours, nearly four hours, the jury came back finding Joseph Maldonado Passage guilty on all 19 counts. Two of those largest ones were the alleged use of interstate commerce for murder for hire. They found him guilty on those two charges. Remember,

one of them, he was found guilty of paying an individual $3,000 in order to commit that murder, a former employee. And he was also accused of trying to pay an undercover FBI agent money as well. Though that money never exchanged hands, the jury did find him guilty of those charges. As far as the rest of those charges are concerned, something the defense called paper crime, seeing that many of them were what he considered to be citations. The jury also found him guilty on all of those charges, all of them surrounding animal crimes, the transport of these animals. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace we are talking about the now conviction of the so-called tiger king uh moldano passage shreve a lot of different names but remember not just the hit on carol

baskin that he forked over thousands to get a rival murdered. He hated her in a longtime grudge match, but also for killing tigers, for killing his tigers allegedly to make room for more profitable animals. Nine counts of that as well. But, you know, you'd think that his conviction would be the end of the story, but it's not. The Fat Lady Hasn't Sung Yet. Take a listen to our friends at Netflix. What a story.

It's so wild it must not be true. That's the first thing people think. Oh, come on. That can't be true. It's 20 years ago. Cold case 20-year-old murders don't get solved. Well, it all starts, you know, Carol Baskin. Carol Baskin, who was Carol Lewis at the time, was married to Don Lewis.

I did see Don Lewis about maybe a month or so before he disappeared. And he did mention to me that he felt his life was in danger. There is so many strange twists in that story. You would have to write books, volumes of the stuff that went wrong there, the lies that are there. All the circumstantial evidence, somebody did something to Don. There's a lot of stories about Carol having some finger in it, but nobody can prove it. In the last hours, the investigation into the disappearance of Carol Baskin's husband has been reopened. Why? And let me state at the get-go,

she has not been named a suspect or a person of interest in her husband's disappearance. First of all, you just heard about, quote, circumstantial evidence. Take a listen one more time to our friends at Netflix. Jack Don Lewis was last seen on August the 18th. He was reported missing on the 19th by his wife at about 1.30 in the afternoon. The detectives walked the property and drove the property. Now you talk about 40 acres. Apparently there was nothing there that

suggested that they should pursue that area any further. There were aerial searches done, but found nothing. Then after three or four days, we found his van abandoned at an airport. With the keys still in it, his briefcase in it, but no Don Lewis. It didn't make sense. Like, with what he said to me, if you was truly wanting to disappear and nobody know where you was at, would you leave your van where you got in a plane to take off? You wouldn't want nobody to know you was in the plane because that's now

a clue. You think it was planted. I think someone else drove the van there. I don't know if it was planted there. Straight out to New York Post investigative reporter Michael Kaplan, who is Don, and when did he go missing? He is the first husband of Carol Baskin, and he went missing in, I believe it was 1997. And he was, you know, she claims that he had, you know, apparently he had tried to get a restraining order on her. She claims he had Alzheimer's. They were, you know, not doing great as a couple, apparently. And he was supposed to go on a trip to Central America or South America.

And his car was found at the airport. And he basically disappeared into thin air. He was never heard from again. And he was apparently quite wealthy. Trying to take in everything that you are telling me. It's like drinking from a fire hydrant. Michael Caffey joining me, investigative reporter, New York Post, my number one favorite newspaper in the world.

Michael, interesting, that last thing you said, he was very, very wealthy. You know, it seems to me Sheriff Chad Chronister, a special guest joining me, the elected sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida, where Carol Baskin's animal sanctuary was housed. Sheriff, it seems to me the first thing you try to do is pull up surveillance video from the parking deck at the airport and check airplane manifest do you know i don't know if you were sheriff at that time but was that done at the time or was it believed he just took off so there's no reason to investigate and i wasn't sheriff at the time i've been here 28 years uh as a deputy but even back then we did check that we checked all passenger manifests.

Nothing showed up for some reason. And I don't completely understand why he had two passports. Neither one of them were flagged as he left the country as well. So even raising even greater suspicion. Wait a minute. You said two passports. Were they in the same name or did he have an alias? He had an alias.

So it was under two different names. Is it with all these people having aliases? Okay, so he has two passports that you know of, but the fact that he's got two, one with a real name, one with an alias, was it an alias or was it another derivation of his name? Like, I guess I could be Nancy Grace or Nancy Lynch or Nancy Grace Lynch. I mean, was it a derivation of his real name or was it really a fake name on that second passport, Sheriff? Yeah, the easier, the changing up. Don Lewis, Donald is his middle name. So one was Jack, one was Don Lewis, going by two different names.

Is Jack part of his real name? It is. It's his real first name. Gotcha. He went by, his middle name's donald he went by don okay and no suggestion that there was a third passport or was there i mean you know when you don't know a horse cheryl mccollum you know the rest of that look at the track record he's already got two passports one first name one using second name as primary name but still airport

surveillance should so show something. What do you make of it, Cheryl McCollum? What do we have to go on? Well, again, Nancy, this is a private airport, so it's a smaller airport. It's not like he pulled into Hartfield. This case Whoa, wait. You mean

with chartered planes? Correct. And no regular carriers like Delta or Southwest or JetBlue? Nothing like that? Correct. Didn't need a ticket. Michael Kaplan, you didn't tell me that. Hello?

I mean, you can hop on a private plane with your library card for Pete's sake. That's true. That's true. Spanky, spanky, Michael Kaplan. But wait a minute. Here's another facet to the whole private plane. There are so many less people. They would know who came through their IFB that day.

I mean, they're like little offices. You park your car here, you go into a little office, and the plane's right there. They would know if they were shown a photo, wouldn't they, Sheriff? Sheriff Chronister, if that person under whatever name had shown up with a library card or a fake passport, wouldn't they, Sheriff? You're 100% correct. No one recognized them.

You have to remember, too, we're back in 1997. There was no surveillance video. We weren't that high tech. There was no GPS. There was no cell phone. So there was no technological advancements that would have helped us today. But again, checking even private planes have to declare, especially going out of the country, who's on that passenger manifest. There was there was none, no planes that he chartered or anyone else chartered that had his name under either of those two names, I should say, leaving the country during that time period, his disappearance.

Sheriff Chronister, is it true that the disappearance of Carol Baskin's then-husband has been reopened as an investigation? Well, it's always been open. Let me just clarify that. A cold case is always open. But when you run into a dead end, the last thing we did was back in 2011, and I know I'm going to get off base, was when we asked her to come in and take a polygraph, and she declined. a dead end. The last thing we did was back in 2011. And I know I'm going to get off base. It was when we asked her to come in and take a polygraph and she declined. And the year before we took DNA samples from all Don Lewis's children in case that body was ever recovered, it would be in a database and we would be able to track it back that way. To Cheryl McCollum, what's the theory? And again, Carol Baskin is not a POI, person of interest, or suspect.

What's the theory? What's the scuttlebutt out there? From the show, the scuttlebutt is Carol killed him and fed him to a tiger for insurance so that he wouldn't take the restraining order out against her and he wouldn't leave her because he was wealthy. But again, what the sheriff is going to have to do is start from ground zero. If there's a way to pull the 911 tape, if there's a way to look at her statements now versus the statements that she made on the show, did she

put up flyers? Did she look for him? Did she call the first wife and beg for help? Did she call the daughters and say, I cannot find your dad? When did he go missing versus when did she report him? He's got to build this whole case from ground zero. Well, here's the deal, Cheryl McCollum, the love of money, the root of all evil. On the other hand, this theory that she killed him and fed him to tigers that sounds like um my last book murder in the courthouse where i don't want to give it away but i will tell you this somebody got hot dog stuff down their pants and pushed into the pool at gator world so uh into the water now you'll have to read it to find out the rest but this sounds like some fantastical plot somebody made up you know what there's got to be more than just rumors innuendo gossip and scuttlebutt and again she is not a suspect she is

not a person of interest but i would like to know what happened to that husband nancy grace crime story signing off goodbye friend this is an iheart podcast Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.