Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EBAY 'BLOOD MONEY': Pregnant Covergirl Sharon Tate murdered, her 'personal items' FOR SALE ON EBAY

Episode Date: April 16, 2021

Sharon Tate's sister says the items being hawked online as belonging to the late actress are fake. Several items, including a ring, dress, and purse purported to have been owned or worn by Tate, are listed for sale on eBay. Debra Tate tells TMZ says it's all a scam.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Troy Slaten - Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC, Twitter @TroySlaten  Dr. Shari Schwartz, Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc Andy Kahan - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston,  Dr. Kendall Crowns – Deputy Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas (Austin) Alisa Stratman - Author: "Author of Restless Souls: The Sharon Tate Family's Account of Stardom, The Manson Murders, and a Crusade For Justice", Patti Tate's partner of 9 years. www.Alisastatman.net, Twitter: @AlisaStatman, Mark Klaas - Founder, Klass Kids Foundation www.klaaskids.org Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Charles Manson. Will he ever go away? You know, I'm pretty sure he was declared dead, but sadly his reign of evil goes on and his minions continue his work, tormenting his victims' families. I'm going to tell you how. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you heard the others come back and talking about the killings,

what was their attitude, their demeanor toward what they had done? I didn't hear about it from the girls until we were in the desert. But they were almost like bragging. That's how I remember them telling me. They were kind of like morbidly gleeful about it. In what way? What did they say? Just like, oh, and we did, you know, and we did this and we did that. Did what?

You know, at first, I think one of the girls told me that they, you know, they stabbed somebody and first, you know, and then it became, then it was fun. Morbidly gleeful. That is the way Manson's disciples responded to mass murder. His reign of evil now still being carried out by his minions how money online murderabilia again thank you for being with us with me an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again la criminal defense attorney troy slayton you can find him at t Slayton. He's with Slayton Lawyers, APC. Dr. Sherry Swartz, forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation at panthermitigation.com.

She's also an author of a set of books, most notably, The Psychology of Criminal Behavior. Boy, do we need her. Special guest joining me right now, long-time friend and colleague, if you don't know his name, I hope you never forget it, Andy Kahn. He is the Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston. You can find him at crimestoppers.org. And he coined the phrase that I've used many, many times, murderabilia. Dr. Kendall Crowns, now the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin. And when you listen to what Dr. Crowns has to say, whether you agree with him or not,

only 10% of medical examiners ever achieve the title of deputy chief medical examiner. My longtime friend, superhero, Mark Klass, the founder of Klass Kids Foundations. You can find him at klasskids.org. He has devoted his life to seeking justice after the murder of his girl, Polly. But first to Elisa Strachman, author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family account of stardom, the Manson murders, and a crusade for justice. This is Patty Tate's partner of nine years.

You can find her at ElisaStachman.net. Elisa, take a listen to this. Charles Manson items are his number one seller. Rambling prison letters, some written in code with his swastika signature, sell for $150 a page. There's even locks of hair from killers and sketches like this one from vampire cult killer rod ferrell that's me and ferrell ferrell who told people he was a 500 year old vampire was convicted of murdering a eustace couple in 1996 holler befriended ferrell and even visited him in prison but But behind his financial gain is loss. We miss you so much.

Raphael Zaldivar's 19-year-old son Alex was murdered last year, shot execution style in the head. Zaldivar feels Haller makes his money off the backs of innocent victims. It's very disgusting to see something like that. You know, he should go find himself a real job and sell other stuff online and to profit off of us. You were just hearing Matt Grant at WISH2. What is murderabilia? And right now it's rearing its ugly head because what we are learning is that for sale right now on eBay, who's doing this? Sharon Tate's family, a Manson victim, very distraught. Right now on eBay, who's doing this?

Sharon Tate's family, a Manson victim, very distraught. Jewelry, dresses, a ring for $180,000 asking price, all claiming to be worn by Sharon Tate. Her sister says, no way. Straight out to Alyssa Strotman author of restless souls why are people still tormenting the murder victims you know that's that's the biggest point of this nancy is that there were more than just the victims that were so brutally murdered in 1969 the family members and friends are victims as well and they are repeatedly year after year for over 50 years victimized by things like this you know i can't speak to the authenticity of these items but one thing really jumped out at me in the 180 000 item and it says we breathe from jay steven's car after the

mansion learner and the important thing to know about that one statement was that Jay Sebring's car was at the crime scene, which means it was evidence. Now, if this was taken from the car, it should have been returned to the family members, whether it be Sebring or Pate. But it should have been sent back to them. You know what? You're absolutely right, Alyssa Strotman. It sounds like vultures, like swooping in. If items were taken from the car at the crime scene, why weren't those items, A, turned into police, or B, given to the families? Straight out to you, Andy Kahn, Director of Victim Services and Advocacy.

Andy, take a listen to this. It's a business Eric Holler says makes him a killing. One critics say goes too far. Sickening. You know, I would personally like to buy all that stuff. And burn it. Postcard Charles Manson's son. Yes.

From postcards to paintings, Holler hawks murderabilia. Intimate items from notorious serial killers and rapists. While the Jacksonville entrepreneur won't say how much money he's made off his website, Serial Killers Inc. THE CELL PHONE. THE CELL PHONE IS A PIECE OF CELL PHONE. IT'S A PIECE OF CELL PHONE FOR SERIAL KILLERS AND RAPISTS. WHILE THE JACKSONVILLE ENTREPRENEUR WON'T SAY HOW MUCH MONEY HE'S MADE OFF HIS WEBSITE,

SERIAL KILLERS INC., MACABE MERCHANDISE FROM TED BUNDY AND JOHN WAYNE GAYCY HAVE SOLD FOR HUNDREDS, EVEN THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. A TED BUNDY CHRISTMAS CARD AND A BIBLE OWNED BY EILEEN WARNOS SOLD FOR THREE GRAND A PIECE. AND THIS CLOWN PAINTING BY GAYCY painting by Gacy, who was nicknamed the Killer Clown, is selling for $2,700. As far as profit, I make a huge profit, and I'm proud to say that.

It might sound cold, but I have no guilt for what I do. No. It does sound cold. Andy Khan, just then, usually I have outrage when it comes to murderabilia, but just then, I just felt stopped in my tracks at this guy's total lack of empathy for murder victims' families. Yeah, I've dealt with Eric Dean, whose real name is Eric Holler, who runs a site out of his home in Jacksonville, Florida, for years. There are seven dealers throughout the country that operate what we call murder-billia sites. I've been monitoring these sites for over 20 years. As you well know in your show that you

had on PNN when we used to do a lot of shows on murderabilia, eBay used to be the primary conduit. We had a two-year battle with eBay. eBay eventually relented and removed murderabilia, though obviously that's now in contesting right now with the Sharon Tate items. So the dealers basically kind of like exterminating cockroaches. When you remove them from one site, they simply set up shop on their own. So you have seven dealers that operate under the alias names like Murder Museum, True Crime Auction House, Murder Auction, Serial Killers, Inc., Death Merchant, and so on. It's probably one of the most insidious sick industries that I've ever watched on now for over 20-some-odd years. My pet phrase has always been no one should be able to rob, rape, and murder and then turn around and make a buck off of it.

I'm a firm believer in free enterprise and capitalism, but I think you've got to draw the line somewhere. And from a victim's perspective, and as someone who serves on the board of parents of murdered children and surviving family members of homicide, it's one of the most nauseating and disgusting feelings, as Mark Klaus will certainly attest to, to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones now has personalized items being hawked by third parties for pure profit. It's absolutely gutting and it's shameful that in our country we allow this to thrive. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the most recent incident of murder-abilia, where jewelry and even clothing of Charles Manson victim, the beautiful Sharon Tate, those items being hawked for a profit on eBay. Her family says they don't even belong to her. What is in the mind of people hawking murderabilia?

Things like serial killers' toenails, their hair, their skin scrapings, autopsy photos, crime scene photos. Just the morbid aspect of what is being done to make a dollar is truly stomach turning. Take a listen to this. I took the knife and I started stabbing and I turned into an animal almost. You know, I just completely let out on that woman's back. Stabbing, I didn't really have any idea in my mind, but it's a real feeling. It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's much tougher. I had to use both hands and all my strength behind it's a real feeling it's not even like cutting a piece of meat it's much

tougher i had to use both hands and all my strength behind it to get it in and so once i started the feeling was so weird that i just kept doing it she was dead within minutes and then i remember seeing her laying flat in front of her closet all bloody on her stomach and her head was covered so i didn't see her face i kind of wished i had it because i could have seen what i'd done more katie trying to get the knife into her throat and it wouldn't go i remember the man laying on the sofa gurgled that deep bloody gurgle and so then the house looked freaky and then katie and tex when i came out of the bathroom they were taking a shower and then after that we were hungry and so we went and we took some cheese and milk out of the bedroom, they were taking a shower. And then after that, we were hungry.

And so we went and we took some cheese and milk out of the refrigerator. You are listening to Manson disciple Leslie Van Houten describing, stabbing a human, how it felt. So ecstatic, truly reverberating with ecstasy that she kept tearing the knife down the victim's skin. Mark Klass, you know what? Sometimes I don't even know what to say. And I've been in court with many a pro and managed to come up with arguments right then and there. But when I hear that, that's Leslie Van Houten, Manson disciple, describing having milk and cheese out of the victim's refrigerator after she just tore a knife through their skin because she liked the way it felt.

It's just, do you ever get overwhelmed? Mark Glass? Well, I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm a little overwhelmed right now. You know, Nancy, the very first time I ever heard of memorabilia was when I was contacted by Andy Kahn back in 19-something, 1990-something. I had a lot of hair back then, Mark. No, you didn't but according to me I was

not alive then but uh you know he told me that my daughter's killer had things for sale on the internet and I literally lost it I became apoplectic I I became non-functional just realizing the fact that this heinous individual, this individual who didn't even deserve to be alive, was profiteering on Paulie's death. And what he was selling were drawings that he made, and they were remarkably unremarkable drawings. There was nothing to them. They didn't even seem to have a sense of the macabre about them their intrinsic value, not to any added-on value based on the crime that prompted them. So I understand where Sharon Tate's sister is coming from. I understand where her family is coming from. And it's beyond the pale that all of these years later, over 50 years later,

they're still suffering the effects of that crime because of these third-rate individuals on the internet that are selling fingernail clippings or fake jewelry or whatever it is. And it's something that should have been ended long ago. But for some reason, there is not the wherewithal to outlaw this kind of activity once and for all. I agree with Mark 100%. Why is this even allowed to happen? Why is this even allowed? Why is this a quote-unquote privilege to these

killers to be able to profit from their crime why did we let those laws go and that they can clean you on today and you know to nancy to what mark just said you know one of the descriptions in this it says this watch displays the love a mother had for her child as well as it's over a hundred years old clearly meant as an heirloom that Sharon would have passed down to her children how about her how about her parents if this is real what about her parents what about her sister what about her nieces and nephews this is the type of stuff that is being taken away from victims who all they have left are memories items and photos it is a disgrace that this is happening.

Am I hearing Dr. Sherry Schwartz or Elisa Strotman? That was Elisa Strotman. I agree with you, and I want to go back to Mark Klass and ask Mark, when you were first alerted by Andy Kahn, who's with us today, that Polly's attacker, her kidnapper, her murderer, Polly was just a little kidnapper, her murderer. Polly was just a little girl when he took her from a spend the night party. And murdered her.

And that smug face he had on in the courtroom at sentencing. And I remember, I remember Mark Klass. You tried to get to him. You tried to lunge at him. And you were held back. I wish to God you'd made it. This piece of crap was selling drawings. And they relate to Polly, your girl. No, they're not drawings of Polly. But the only reason anybody even knows his name is because he murdered Mark Klaas' girl, Polly.

And he is making money not only off drawings, but pictures of himself in shorts. I saw those online. i nearly gagged how is this guy able to do that when you first heard that from andy khan what went through your mind well i want to be clear about this nancy outside of the realization that he had actually done this to Paulie, which took me a little while to process. This was, I think, arguably the worst moment that I've had over the course of the last 20-odd years. And I'm not even quite sure why that is, because we faced this guy down in trial.

The events that you just recounted actually did happen. But when Andy told me about this guy profiteering, doing these things, and that he wasn't the only one, that it included fingernail clippings, I truly and really lost it. In fact, I believe that I was on the radio with you at one point talking to one of these vendors, and I had a complete and total on-air meltdown. It's – I don't know why this hit me more than other things hit me, but it was about as close to touching evil as I've ever been. It's blood money, plain and simple, Mark.

And the fact that you had no idea this was going on, and if we hadn't alerted you, this particular individual would be continuing to be allowed to do this. Going back to the Manson items on eBay, you know, eBay could take a stand very simply. And, you know, we forced them to, you know, years ago to take a stand on murder bill. eBay doesn't have to allow this. They can simply say the items are being contested. We're pulling them and we don't have to allow this to being sold. So, you know,

shame on eBay for even allowing that. You know, how did you get them to back off the first time, Andy? The first time it was a two year battle. I put them through the ringer through basically a national media campaign of exposing hundreds of serial killers, mass murderers, school shooters. They were having items, personalized items being showed on eBay. And then we we were I was approached by a producer from 2020 who wanted to do a segment. And Mark is on that segment as well with me. And at that time, we had just started crafting what we call notoriety for profit laws. Most people in this country still assume we have what's called Son of Sam laws, which restrict the convicted felon's

ability to profit. But most people are unaware of that the Son of Sam laws were ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court all the way back in 1991 in a case involving Simon & Schuster versus Henry Hill, who's better known as the main character in the movie Goodfellas. So Son of Sam laws were struck down because most of the language dealt with the issue of free speech. And as you well know, Nancy, most courts frown on any language refuting free speech. So what I started doing was crafting laws, not dealing with the free speech angle, but simply the issue of profiting. So in other words, talk all you want, scratch, sniff, paint, doodle, whatever. You just don't make money off of it. So at that time, we had

a bill filed in Texas. Mark actually had a bill that ended up being passed in California. So about two weeks before 2020 was scheduled to air their segment, eBay sent out a news release stating they will no longer allow the sale of Murderbilia out of respect for victims' families. The timing of their news release in a 2020 story was merely coincidental. So that's how it happened. Well, how the heck did it devolve into this? Because it's happening all over again. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, take a listen to our friend Matt Grant at WESH.

Richard was the first guy that I went into business with. He was the first guy that I wrote. He was the first guy that I heard back from. He wanted me to sell his artwork back in the 90s. Did he ever get asked for a cut of it, or did he ask for anything in return? I can't say that. These are letters from Charles Manson.

In reading his writing is practically impossible. There's a very small Manson signature right there. I think he had signed it somewhere very, very small. I think I can't see my life there. Players are playing in. I think there's a signature of Swastika right there.

I can't see because my eyes are so bad. I've got better Manson signatures. That's another letter of his. Yes, that's another letter. I'll show you a better Manson signature. And this this goes for one hundred and fifty dollars. So one page Charlie Manson letter. It's almost too much to take in. I want you to juxtapose

that to something I just played earlier. Hour Cut 2. Listen to what the Manson Disciple says happened as Manson's followers tore apart, literally tore apart their victims. And I took the knife and I started stabbing and I turned into an animal almost. You know, I just completely let out on that woman's back. Stabbing, I didn't really have any idea in my mind, but it's a real feeling. It's not even like cutting a piece of meat.

It's much tougher. I had to use both hands. Stop. Stop. Out to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, author of Psychology of Criminal Behavior at panthermitigation.com. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, as a former prosecutor, it was not my duty or burden to prove what is going on in the mind of a killer. But let me ask you, did you just hear Manson disciple Leslie Van Houten doing Manson's bidding, literally tearing apart the victim's skin? Help me. I have to tell you that listening to that, you know, and I had watched over the years their parole hearings because I was interested in the process and wanting to see, are they going to get out? I hadn't appreciated before really the utter lack of empathy.

It's very different seeing the person than just listening to them. And it almost sounds to me as she's talking about that, that there is sort of a sense of pride. Listen to the amount of detail that she goes into. And if there's not a sense of pride, there's certainly a glaring lack of empathy, right? She knows that this is being recorded. She's going on and on and on about these gory details i mean down to the detail of oh it was you know tougher than a piece of meat uh you know it's not what you would think and then we went and ate sandwiches um this is somebody who has no respect no reverence for for and then whatsoever of what has been done and i want to go to troy

slayton following up on what dr sherry schwartz just said forensic psychologist troy uh a there's a rhetorical question how do you represent people like that but i i know you're not going to give me a straight answer on that but b uh you're the la criminal defense attorney how do people still get away with profiting off murders like that including sharon tate's her sister is has been thrown into the abyss an emotional abyss by clothing purportedly belonging to her sister, Sharon Tate, pregnant at the time she was murdered, clothing now on sale on eBay and jewelry purporting to belong to her. How are they still getting away with it, Troy? Well, Nancy, several states have taken action, including Texas, California, New Jersey, Michigan, Utah,

banning the sale of the so-called murder Velia. And so the states have taken action. Several years ago, there was an attempt in Congress. Senators Conron and Klobuchar tried to pass a bill that would have banned this on a federal level. Unfortunately, that attempt failed. And you have to be very careful in crafting something like this because the ACLU is working hard to fight against any type of prior restraint. Okay, well, stop right there. The American Civil Liberties Union, they are to fight for your constitutional and God-given liberties to sell a serial killer's toenails and skin scrapings. They believe that no matter who you are, whether you're a crime victim or the perpetrator of horrific, heinous acts, that you have the same constitutional rights. And there are even some prisoners who will go so far as to melt M&Ms and use paintbrushes created by their own human hair to paint and sell their artwork out of the prison.

You know, Troy, it's always just such a pleasure talking to you. I didn't know that, but that's something for me to tuck away and never think about again. Dr. Kendall Crowns, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner in Travis County, Texas. That's Austin. What is she talking about when she is describing stabbing the victim in the back and then ripping ripping the knife down the victim's back and she said that it was difficult difficult what was she was she tearing through muscle? What was she doing? All right. So when you stab someone, it only takes about three pounds of pressure to get through the skin surface to get to the organs. So what it sounds like she's describing is she's probably tearing through the cartilage or the ribs that are along the back.

And that would actually make it difficult once you insert the knife to move it because of the bones or the ribs so it sounds like she's describing as pulling it through bone or having to basically hack her way through the bone to continue pulling. You know Nancy if I can just comment real quickly on that Van Houten. Is this Alisa? Yeah it's elisa sorry go ahead dear i released that tape about two years ago for one reason and one reason only that tape was done at the time that leslie van houghton was switching attorneys her first attorney was fired so this was the second half of the class so we're talking all the way back in 1969 1970. that was her description of the la piazza murder today she takes that same thing and she soft-soaked it.

Well, I was doing this. And everything sounds very benign about what she was doing. This is the reality of what these people do. And I think it speaks to why murderabilia is so readily kind of accepted in our society, unless you've been been victimized is because people forget how horrible and brutal these murders were and if people could be reminded of that more often maybe they wouldn't want to buy these items what she was speaking to were her own feelings back then that she says you know i didn't feel this and i didn't feel that and I just barely stabbed her after she was dead and you know this and that they asked the blood was still running out of the lobby on his body they ransacked the closet they took

clothing they took other items from the house itself which for all we know could end up on a murder obelisk site, you know, and now nobody remembers the brutality of this. And that's why that tape is so important. Let's go back and remember what happened on those two nights. I'm just thinking about what Sharon Tate's sister is going through right now. And I've often described Mark Klass to you and Andy Kahn when asked about the murder of my fiance Keith what I haven't really talked about as much is what happened in the courtroom when I was a witness I remember coming down off the witness stand it was two levels of

steps up way up by the judge and coming down I glanced over at the state's counsel table and saw evidence including the shirt Keith had been wearing that morning when he went to work was a denim shirt except now it was covered in dried blood and there were other items there that That's the one I remember. I can only imagine what Sharon Tate, pregnant when she was murdered, sister is going through. If someone, if I found out someone was trying to sell that shirt

or sell autopsy photos of Keith. It's just what Elisa Strotman, author of Author of Restless Souls, just said. It seemingly only matters to us crime victims, but I think any thinking or would not want this. I mean, Mark Klass, just say verbalizing what Sharon Tate's sister must be going through when she allows herself to think about it. It's got to be excruciating.

And you have gone through this, Mark Klass. Well, I have. And it's everything that was described, Nancy. Like I said, it was the worst possible moment outside of learning about Pauly's death itself. But in defense of, I don't want to say in defense of, but Sharon Tate's family became instrumental in creating victims' rights in the United States. They really barely existed. Her mother, Doris Tate, spent years after that crime in bed in almost a comatose state. But at some point, she decided that she needed to do something to memorialize her daughter as something more than just the Hollywood curiosity. And she started to pound the pavement in Sacramento and she created the Doris Hay Act.

She really became one of the very first victims advocates in the United States. And her actions spawned a great movement that for some period of time protected crime victims. Unfortunately, then the Internet came around and everything changed. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The evil of Charles Manson is still being carried out by his minions. Manson's the biggest wheeler and dealer. Yeah, he is. Just the devil's henchman. And it's amazing to me this is still happening.

You know what? Take a listen again. Let's get real. I don't want to even hear charlie manson's voice so let's listen to leslie van de hute and his chief disciple and our cut number three how are you going to start this revolution by killing by doing a murder that had no sense behind it we were all almost fascinated by the thought of killing people. It had to be done. And we were the only ones that saw that it had to be done.

Me and Katie and Sadie and Clem, we all went out that night. We went driving around, couldn't find any place, and I was tired, so we went to sleep. When I woke up, I heard Charlie talking to Sadie, and he said, they think it's a robbery. They're tied up. Just go on in I got

their wallet just make it quick and easy so we went in you know the woman she turned around and said what are you guys doing here thanks was real calm we're just gonna take your money we were supposed to go meet the woman and put a hood on her because all of a sudden she jumped up she got the lamp she and I put back. What's happening to Leo? And we kept, he's all right. And Katie tried to stop him and the knife ended. Describing the murders, wiping out multiple victims and then taking their stuff. And that evil is going on right now, Andy Khan, because the victim's items purportedly are still being sold on eBay.

He swore they weren't going to let this happen anymore, but they are. Andy, what are some of the items you have seen? I mentioned, I think it was Resendez Ramirez, Resendez Toenails. Yeah, he had foot scrapings that were being sold. I actually came up with a top ten list just because it was the items that I was seeing were just so. Please tell me. Probably the worst item that I've seen. I guess I'll describe it as bodily fluid from a Massachusetts school shooter that was placed on a magazine cover. A dealer actually went to where James Byrd Jr., an African-American

man who most people remember as the victim in the Jasper dragging death. A murderability dealer went to the site where he was dragged to death on a highway and scooped up rocks and pavement. Then he had the audacity to go to Byrd's grave site. He has pictures scooping up dirt and then posted them up for sale on Bird's grave site. That was about as revolting as it can get. I have, you know, I have items. And the reason I purchased a lot of items, mainly because most people don't believe this industry exists. So I thought, you know what, it'd be prudent for me to get items. So when I do lectures, when I speak to elected officials, I can actually show them that this industry is burgeoning and it's thriving.

I have a California Serial Killers fingernail clippings, pieces of clothing or shirts. Climbscene photos are really big and in vogue right now. And actually, Facebook allows a dealer to post crime scene photos up for sale. Manson was the biggest wheeler and dealer. He actually had CDs that he recorded from his prison cell, and he sent them to a company called White Devil Records, who actually on the market put out three Manson CDs to be sold. Cell dust from someone who was in there. You name it, anything that can be attached to a high-profile killer can and will be sold on the market.

You know, Nancy, I'm not sure if you've heard of the haunted museum that is in Las Vegas. And I bring this up because this guy has taken everything from serial killers to victims. Sharon Tate's wedding dress is in this place that he bought from an auction. Other items from Sharon Tate are in this place. Items that belong to Manson.

So this isn't just on the internet. This is like one of the biggest attractions in Las Vegas. It is basically a murder-abilia museum. just on the internet this is like one of the biggest attractions in las vegas it is this basically murder abelia museum on top of that the same man that owns that museum actually purchased the la bianca house for one reason and one reason only he planned to turn it into a murder abelia museum and the only reason he didn't do that is because he was turned down for zoning. So the house is back on the market. This isn't just, this is pandemic to the point.

Take a listen to Steve Burge in WLKY News, Louisville. You can even shop by category. Cannibals, gay killers, satanic killers, and school shooters. There are also other sites selling murderabilia, where you can buy serial killer trading cards, Dahmer calendar, rare footage of the Dahmer trial, and his TV appearances. Dahmer ate some of his 17 victims. We're on a record. This will be a subsequent parole consideration hearing for Charles Manson. Online, you can buy copies of Charles Manson parole hearings. Manson had his own family of killers.

Artwork of John Gacy sells for thousands of dollars. He was known as the killer clown. To Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, you can find her at panthermitigation.com. The killers themselves are the devil, but who are these people selling memorabilia? What's going on in their minds? These are individuals, Nancy, who on some level are con artists.

They may not be like the con artists that approach you on the street and try to scam you, but they use similar techniques to draw people in to buy these things. And they don't care about the impact. One of your guests earlier said that one of these sellers has absolutely no problem whatsoever with what he's doing. He doesn't feel guilty about it at all and he's making a killing on it. He's profiting on this. And so these are individuals to sell their wares or, you know, these items that they come up with. They use emotional appeals to draw people in. So, for example, one of the items that's on sale on eBay that supposedly belonged to Sharon Tate, the dress,

there's an emotional appeal in there where it's somebody saying, oh, the seller is saying, I'm 93 years old and this belonged to my late son. This was part of his collection. And I'm just trying to recoup costs, you know, and I don't really know very much about this industry. I'm not trying to get rich. Well, but of course you are, because why are you selling this? And even worse, why are you trying to profit on a family's trauma? You know, and so these are, these are really, it's very insidious, as one of your guests said earlier, because it's subtle. And because to the average person who looks at this, you know, they might do an eye roll and say, oh, well, maybe it's real, maybe it's not. And who would spend so much money on that

silly thing? But really, all you have to do is listen to Mark Klass say, you know, I had a meltdown when I found out my daughter's killer was selling these things. That's a trauma response. And really connect with this idea that when you are feeding into this and you're buying these items and you're perpetuating this type of a business, you're actually perpetuating the victim family's trauma. And the Tate family has been dealing with this for 52 years, Nancy. 52 years. And not just the Tate family, but others. Mark Klass, I want to end with you. This murderabilia is nothing more than a total and complete re-victimization of the families that are involved on the murder end of these transactions. Every time I see or hear about one of these things, it makes my blood boil. Andy knows about this.

I've talked to him many times about this. He's a true champion in trying to eliminate this horrible stuff. But unfortunately, it continues to exist. And as long as we continue, as we're doing now, to coddle these prisoners and have organizations like the ACLU stand up for their rights, I'm afraid that this is going to be perpetuated time and time again. And it's unfortunate for everybody involved. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.