Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EERIE LEAKED JAIL VIDEO OF KOHBERGER WITH BRIGHT RED HANDS., "AMERICAN PSYCHO" SHIRTLESS SELFIES

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

A new Bryan Kohberger video circulating online sparks concerns of a possible prison leak, or an AI creation. The apparent jailhouse video, shot from above, shows Kohberger in a medical cell,  hands  bright red,  places items on a shelf  then staring intensely at it.  None of the facilities where Kohberger has been housed has claimed the video came from inside their wards. A statement from IDOC: "We are aware of the videos circulating online and are investigating the matter.  While we cannot yet confirm the veracity of the videos, if verified, they are a clear violation of IDOC policy and the parties responsible will be held accountable, up to and including termination." Prosecutors have long said there was no sexual component to the Kohberger murders, but never-before-seen-evidence should multiple shirtless selfies on Kohberger's phone.  Investigators also found  Kohberger's sickening internet searches of attacking and raping girls in their sleep.   Heather and Jared Barnhart of Cellebrite, experts in digital evidence,  were going to testify at trial that Kohberger used search terms for pornography "passed out" "sleeping" "forced raped" "drugged" and voyeur". Jared Barnhart says "all of his terms were consistently around non-consensual sex acts." His sleeping rape fetishes raise questions about his plans for the night of the murder.  Kohberger is currently serving four consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole at Idaho Maximum Security Institution for the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students – Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle. Joining Nancy Grace today: Josh Kolsrud - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices, kolsrudlawoffices.com, Facebook and YouTube @KohlsrudLawOffices Caryn Stark -  Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice   Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective,   Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough   Heather Barnhart-  Lead Digitial Forensic Investigator in the Bryan Kohberger case, SANS Institute Fellow (SysAdmin, Audit, Network, and Security) & Senior Director of Forensic Research, Cellebrite [SELL-uh-bright], Co-Author of "Practical Mobile Forensics," now in it's 4th edition, www.sans.org and www.cellebrite.com and her blog: smarterforensics.com,     Dr. Priya Banerjee- Board Certified Forensic Pathologist and Anatomic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting  Annie Elise - Creater and CEO of "10 to Life" a deep dive series analyzing true crime cases, Host of the podcast "SERIALously," website: annieelise.com Dave Mack - 'Crime Stories' Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This technology is already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Erie leaked jail videos of Brian Coburger with bright red hands, red, compared to the rest of his arm, bright red hands as American psycho-type shirtless selfies emerge on his phone. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you for being with us. I think he was an insult. Don't ever try to convince yourself. He mattered just because someone finally said your name out loud. In cells hate women because they can't get them because they got the girl, not him. If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep, in the middle of the night, like a pedophile. Kaylee would have kicked your f***ing ass. Thank you.

Incredibly seethingly envious and jealous. Those last words were from Kelly Gonzalez's sister speaking at sentencing. You know, drop the mic, girl. You are awesome. But to tonight's stunning reveal. These American psychotype shirtless selfies and so much more emerging on Brian Coburger's phone This, as we learn, when he leaves the murder scene, and believe it or not, there are still

people fighting online saying he's innocent and he was framed. By who himself? He pled guilty. It's emerging now that as he's leaving, this horrific crime scene, who does he call? Mommy! That's freaky. But first, I've got to get to this leaked cell video. Joining me in All Star Pound to make sense of what we're learning.

let's look at it everybody let's look at the video together and straight out to annie elise joining us creator CEO of 10 to life any thank you for being with us let's look at the oh look at the hands we're looking at it right now i don't know if you can see it on your monitor and here he is obsessive obsessively cleaning the cracks and the the the little line that goes around the bottom of your shoe what he got it muddy behind bars no But he's re-cleaning and re-cleaning his shoes. And looking around awkwardly looks very much. You know, this is telling me something else.

It's telling me that the way he looked in sentencing and the way he looked in court is how he really looks. Kind of a blank dead stare. Okay. First of all, I want to analyze everything I can glean from this leaked. video and who leaked it is anybody's guess you know jails are falling over themselves to say it's not ours it's not ours hey it's somebody's straight out to any at least any what do you observe in the video i think it's so interesting because of course everybody is glued to this trying to analyze it because it's really the first movements we have seen it for three years of him and he

we know he we've heard that he has oCD so he's carefully cleaning the shoe but i think what strikes everybody as odd is when he's done cleaning it, he puts that tissue up on top of the cage and he just stares there. Very still, very intently looking above the monitor that's in that cage and almost looks as though he's just thinking or evaluating it and it's really eerie. I'm taking a look at him now. Now, what was your comment regarding how he would look up at the shelf? Yeah, when he puts it up, you can see a little bit. If you look at his eyes, he's looking direct. directly above whatever is inside that cage, whether it's a TV screen, some sort of maybe perhaps a tablet.

I don't think it's the tablet, though I don't think he has access to that. And he's almost staring right above it just looking at it. I don't know if it's because he's angry at not throwing it away because he doesn't want to contaminate the cell. I don't know why he wouldn't throw it away. There's a trash can right there. But it just seems very bizarre that he would use it to clean so intently. Annie Elise.

Oh, Annie Elise. Whoa, whoa, hold on. Annie, he couldn't put trash in the trash can. It would make the trash can dirty. No, I know. You're right. You're right. You remember?

Hold on. I ought to throw something at you. Hold on just a moment. But I'm going to go very quickly to Chris McDonough joining me. He's worked over 300 homicide cases. I found him on YouTube, on his show, The Interview Room, former homicide detective. Remember when he was arrested at his parents' place near the Poconos? Remember that?

And he was. Annie, you've got to remember this. And he was wearing plastic gloves at like 3 o'clock in the morning, like a surgeon, and wearing box or shorts or shorts. And he was taking trash and putting in plastic bags before the plastic bags would be put into the trash, and then putting that trash in the neighbor's trash bin. So, like, this guy is not going to just throw something in the trash can. especially something that might be dirty, where he had reclaimed his shoes behind bars.

Nancy, if we take a look at this video, there's a couple of things that are pretty obvious here. Number one is it's got to be a medical facility in terms of a cell within inside of the jail or wherever this is from. Because there are two windows on the wall. There's one on the door, if you'll notice, and then there's one on the wall. And then inside of the trash can, there's a plastic bag. And on the wall, there's a cord hanging down. And then, of course, it's a medical bed, and then there's railings around the toilet. That means one of two things.

A, he's in observation, or B, they've signed off that he's not a threat to himself because that bag and that cord would not be in that room. Absolutely. Plus, did you see the bedspread? I don't know if you said that. I didn't hear you say the bedspread. It doesn't look like a uniform bedspread that you would see in a cell also in a regular cell. I mean, you remember the disarray in Jeffrey Epstein's cell, which is totally, totally

not SOP. Here, there's too much stuff in a room if he was on suicide watch. Exactly. And that bed is a medical bed. You can see it. I mean, even at the top, it's got the railing on it still. So I take your observation here and whoever took this. What is he doing with styrofoam cups in his room? Wait a minute. why what is he getting hot cocoa see those styrofoam cups up there on the shelf what he's not supposed to have that in his room where is this place no of course well this video is yet to be verified by authorities and the jails are falling all over themselves saying hey we didn't leak it somebody leaked it okay why is he having hot cocoa behind bars

why does he have styrofoam cups in there well that tells us he said two meals because he comes with a drink and so he's he's saving those cups for something, and the staff is letting them have it, to your point. So, yeah, this is a medical situation, I think, before they put him into isolation. Does somebody bring you hot chocolate in bed? Because nobody brings me hot chocolate in bed. Why is he getting his, how can he, how is he allowed to keep all that in his room? It's totally, completely against the ordinance behind bars.

I don't care. But the thing is he could do something with all of those items like it's claimed Epstein did. He allegedly hung himself. Okay, that's BS. But that said, that's why inmates are not allowed to have all the accoutreement with them behind bars. So is he getting his food in that room? He never leaves to even eat? Yeah, I mean, and that's why there are three levels of observation, right?

You've got the two windows, one on the door, one on the wall. and, of course, the video observation. You've got eyes on this guy at all times. And maybe this is part of the where docs are looking at him going, okay, he's not doing that, doing that. And that, you know, that's out of my pay grade, right? But at the same time, maybe this is part of what are we, where are we going to put this guy and how off is he just yet?

Well, another issue is some of the shoes look like they may have shoe laces. That's totally disallowed. You put two shoe laces together, and suddenly you've got the means you can strangle yourself or somebody else. McDonough? Yeah. Yeah, no, you're 100% right, Nancy. And that's why we got to take a 50-50 looking at this thing and saying, okay, could this be AI generated and or if it is belonging to the facility? Those are very legitimate questions that you just, or statements that you just made.

He shouldn't have those delicious. I would not have imagined he would be in a cell of this nature. You know, joining me right now, Karen Stark, forensic psychologist, renowned TV, radio trauma expert and consultant at Karenstart.com. Karen, what are you making of what we are seeing? So, Nancy, what we see is somebody who's very, very anxious and think about who he is. He's a person who needs to be isolated. He doesn't have contacts in his phone, only 18.

he keeps himself to except for his family dependency he's on his own and what i'm looking at is somebody who's very anxious we know about the staring we know about the fact that he has that look in his eyes and he's a killer and a monster but here he is just looking ahead looking at his shoes very obsessive compulsive and i feel like he's extremely anxious because he's being observed. And he's not used to anything like that. He keeps to himself. Also, the red, the fact that his hands are red, it's as though, you know, he's calling out, I'm in distress. I don't know what that red is if he cut himself and he was bleeding, but he's having a really difficult time. Karen, being the air thing. Karen, how do red hands say, how in the world do having really red

hands equal crying out, I'm in distress. I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't understand what you just said. But to me, it just, it doesn't make any sense. It's very spooky. Like, why are his hands red? And he knows he's being observed. Well, I think I've got a pretty good idea because he washes them obsessively, as we have discussed in previous programs. He washes his hands to the point. His hands are absolutely cracking open and red. That, that, That's why his hands are red. Okay, so again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but as a psychoanalyst, what does that tell you? Well, that tells me he's obsessive compulsive.

That's what he does. Just the way you see him cleaning his shoes, Nancy, that's exactly what he's doing with his hands. He's doing it over and over again. And that's how he copes with his anxiety. He gets fixated on things. And this is such a great example of somebody. who's fixating on a shoe and then staring at that shelf

whatever is there. And if in fact that's why his hands are red, he just washes them, as you said, over and over and over. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.

On America's crime lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

To Annie Elise joining us, what's the word on where this video came from. Is it like in the Sean Combs, Cassie Ventura Beatdown video, where someone is videoing a screen? Because I don't understand when you pull that out of the video. You can see that storage shelf.

Yes, you can also see at the very start of the video, the corner of what looks to be a computer monitor. So I believe that it's somebody who works inside this facility who maybe wanted to show off to their friends or family, and say, look who's in our facility, who I'm watching, and they're videoing the actual monitor of the recording inside the cell, and then they share it with one person. That, of course, gets shared, ends up all over the internet and goes viral. See those droplets of blood right there? Do you know what that means? He was standing there

with a knife in his hand. That is arterial spray where Ethan's throat was cut, and every heartbeat created that pattern of blood. The brutality here that has been exacted on these kids is unimaginable. It's unbelievable. In the newly emerged jailhouse video leaked by investigation pending, the video is infuriating victims' rights advocates who think about the brutality and how these four beautiful young students were murdered. And now he has what?

A penthouse suite at the jail? He's got a huge bed by jailhouse standards as opposed to a bunk. He has, look at this, plenty of walking around room, shelves, multiple pairs of shoes. He's doing fine. The elite video has yet to be verified by authorities, but now his selfies, his freesties, his freaking. American psychotype selfies are emerging. Listen. Besides the chilling selfie he took, giving the

thumbs up hours after murdering four university students, Coburger's cell phone is filled with creepy selfies posing shirtless and flexing his muscles. Had Coburger gone to trial, experts from Celebrite would have testified about Coburger's phone and how he attempted to hide his movements by powering off his phone with 100% battery driving to and from the crime scene and how his Cell phone use would have taken down his alibi, claiming he was driving around in the dark looking at stars. Celebrite expert Heather Barnhart says, if you're stargazing and taking pictures of the sky, your phone needs to be on. And joining us right now, a very special guest, Heather Barnhart, lead digital forensic investigator in the Brian Coburger case. Sands Institute Fellow, that system, administrative, audit, network, and security, senior director of forensic.

research, Celebrate, which we learned way too much about during the Alex and Merlin double murder case. She is also co-author of practical mobile forensics. Heather, thank you so much for being with us. Tell us what you meant by that statement. He had so many selfies on this device. Brian Koberger loved himself. There was a level of vanity.

And even if you look at that image right there, the scrubbing of his knuckles, the red in his hands in the cell. He was obsessive. He didn't like to be dirty, but he loved to look at himself. We found cached YouTube images of Christian Bale as American Psycho, standing in front of a mirror with blood spattered on his face. And as you can see in many of these selfies, he has that same look. He has that same dead stare and almost this vain appreciation who he is and what he thinks he is. What else did you observe on Koeberger's phone? Oh my gosh. So he was obsessed with serial killers. He searched for non-consensual porn acts. He also was really paranoid in December a few days before his arrest. He was searching for ways to detail his car, possibly get

rid of his car. So we know when you're searching for psychopath paranoia, And I believe I heard he didn't want to be called a psychopath. He knows he is. And he was searching for that. He was extremely paranoid, but also obsessed with just reading the behaviors and lifestyles of serial killers. When you say he would read about the lifestyles of serial killers, what do you mean? What was he looking up? On Christmas night, right before it was to the 26, Brian went to serial killer timelines on Android.

And he clicked on link after link. Two times for Danny Rowling, Dennis Raider, Ted Bundy, and so many more. But what he was reading, where these serial killers were born, what type of families they came from, what their crime was, how they got caught. Did they ever hurt any pets? It was extremely creepy. And think about the timeline. It's Christmas night. Most people aren't going to read about serial killers.

You know, I was looking at your analysis, Heather Barnhart. And for hours, he looked up Betty Lou Beatt. Randy Kraft, William Lee, Danny Rowling, Joel Rifkin, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gasey, so many others, Rodney Elkala, Robert Hanson, Gary Ridgeway, wow, it's just Ed Kemper, one of the worst, Dennis Rader, aka Buying Torture Kill, BTK. And that is on, is it Christmas night or Christmas Eve night? It's on Christmas night into the hours of the 26th of December. And you said he had a huge cash of American Psycho saved? Were they steals? Did he actually download the movie?

They were still shots from YouTube. So it's almost as if he either captured it or his Android captured it on his behalf as he was watching. He watched Ed Kemper mannerisms on YouTube. So different things that just don't make sense. Even if your criminology major do not make sense. Now, that's interesting that you said that because I imagine that the defense would be, well, he's a criminology student, and that's why he's doing this. But you say, and I agree, that it doesn't make sense.

I have my own reasons, such as he's doing it on Christmas night, number one, but studying it and getting screen grabs of Christian Bell without a shirt on bail, that's not real, okay? Christian Bell is not a serial killer, but yet he's getting these shirtless selfies type shots of bail and saving them and then reenacting them. So that has nothing to do with his criminology degree. But why do you say that, Heather?

I majored in forensic science. I majored in bloodstained pattern analysis. You would get research projects. Your research wasn't to research every single one, and repeatedly, he visited Danny Rowling twice on Christmas night and once earlier in November. So it was repetitive reading almost, to me, it felt like bedtime reading, something that would relax him because he was home with mother and father. So he didn't need them to put him to sleep. Instead, he leaned into something like this. Heather, do not move a hair.

Joining me now is Josh Coles Rood, renowned to criminal defense attorney. former assistant U.S. attorney, founder of Coles Rood Law Offices, Josh, do your clients ever totally scape you out? Yes, of course, but I try to remain objective throughout anything. I mean, when I was a prosecutor, you know, we had situations that are very similar to this case as well. And, you know, the most important thing is to remain objective. And when looking at the jail video in particular, the first thing that I think about is that if this video is real, that it's a betrayal of prison security. And if it's not real, or then if it's...

You're telling me, Brian Koeberger had his privacy violated? That's your worry? He's taking screen grabs of Christian Bell who plays American Psycho. and storing them. He's obsessively reading bedtime stories about serial killers on Christmas night. And the first thing that comes out of your defense attorney mouth is his rights have been violated because somebody's peaked on him as he's shining his shoes again. Did you said that, right? I'm so happy.

So what's concerning to me is that, number one, the victims of this crime, their families don't want to keep seeing. Brian Coburger on TV being analyzed and being fertilized into a cult-like figure. I mean, people aren't watching this to learn. They're watching it to peek at a monster in a cage. And that says more about us than really, than it says about him. Okay, first you said his rights were violated. And when I got three inches up your tailpipe, you went, oh, erase, erase, Jurassic erase. What I meant to say is that I'm all about the victim.

families. And I don't want them to have to look at Coburger again. So that's your backup argument. I'm asking you about creepy clients. And first you say Coburger's rights have been violated because I can watch them in a cell. Now you're saying what you meant to say was you were trying to defend the victims. There are many reasons why this video is disturbing and it's not just for those two reasons. There's also the idea. that even inmates have a right to privacy. And if you just give that up and you strip that away, then we erode the foundation of what our entire system is based on,

which is the rule of law, that it's, you know, that justice is blind, that we apply the rules equally to everyone. And that's what we're trying to say here. You know, this obsession with seeing co-burger behind bars, it really does risk quadruple murder into somebody that's a cult-like figure instead of where he belongs, which is forgotten. Well, maybe that's your interpretation, Coles Rood, but nothing in my mind is turning him

into a cult-like figure to be worshipped and admired. Again, the video has yet to be verified by authorities. A couple of jails are going, uh-uh, it's not us. But as you heard earlier, Chris McDonough was stating, that's not a typical jail cell. This looks like it's on a med unit. and I don't think it's going to be a typical cell in any of two jailhouses I can think of. So I went to Josh Coleroux to ask him, would he be skewed out basically by a client who is, for enjoyment, bedtime reading about all these serial killers.

And speaking of Ed Kemper, as I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a feeling, Heather Barnhart might know the answer to this. His first victim was his own grandmother. He shot her with a rifle, and he said, I wanted to see what it'd feel like to shoot up grandma. Words to that effect. So he does have that in Sepantico with Brian Coburger, because I believe he committed the murder to, quote, see what it felt like. See, him reading about Ed Kemper on Christmas night, that skews me out, totally. And I have been with a lot of killers.

I've interviewed them. I've prosecuted them. I've investigated them. I have covered them. I've studied them right down to their DNA. And I got to tell you something, Heather. I don't know what Coles Rood is talking about. Now he's a victim's rights advocate. He is a criminal defense attorney and a really good one at that. Heather, Kemper, Christmas night, 10 o'clock? What, with his PJs tucked into? I put some guys will tuck the shirt into the pants. and then the pants get tucked into the socks. I could just totally see that happening. And reading about Kemper, his first victim with his own grandma. You know, when you say grandma and the way Brian saved mother and father, and even texted, where is father? I won't father answer. It's too many similar behaviors.

Hey, before you start talking about him going, Father, why won't Mother pick up the phone? That's a whole other can of worms. Can I get, you know, I got to get this bus to steer it back in the middle of the road. I'm talking about Coburger, freaky screen grabbing Christian Bell, and then making replica shirtless selfies, flexing his muscles. Tell me about the images, Heather. We found, so my husband worked this case with me, so it was so crazy. Imagine our conversations at home, but pictures not only just forward in the mirror, but from behind.

So he would get the mirror reflection back while he was flexing. And I don't know on location of the emergency? Hi, something is happening. Something happens in our house. We don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? One one. What is the rest of the address?

Oh, King's Road. Okay. And is that a house or an apartment? in the house. Can you repeat the address to make sure that I have it right? I'll talk to you guys. We live at the lights so we're next to them. I need someone to repeat the address for verification. The address, 1122 King Road. His searches were not limited to violent porn. Co-Burger's laptop searches reveal his obsession with serial killers, co-ed killers, home invasions, burglaries, and psychopaths. and his obsession with the Gainesville Ripper, Danny Rowling.

Rolling broke into the homes of University of Florida students at night, murdering five, four female and one male, raping the young women, decapitating one of them, and posing her head on the mantle in her home. Rowling's murder weapon, just like Coburger, a K-Barr knife. Coburger even downloaded a PDF about Rowling on his phone and watched a YouTube video about a K-bar knife. And we wonder where K-Berger got his inspiration,

straight back out to Heather Barnhart joining us, Lee Digital Forensic Investigator in the Brian Coburger case. Heather, the obsession with serial killers goes much deeper than we were originally led to believe. And I feel confident if this case had been taken to a jury, the jury would agree with everything that you are saying. Now, the shirtless selfies, you were describing that earlier, and taken by Coburger at various angles that are eerily similar to screen grabs he had from American Psycho, the serial killer. Could you describe them, please, Heather?

Sure. He would take his shirt off and stand in his bathroom mirror and flex his muscles, but take photos of himself from multiple angles. So head on from behind profile view. And it was eerily similar to Christian Bale and American Psycho, which was also present on his zone. Guys, you're saying some of the shots we have of Koberger and his selfies. Heather, what you are telling us is far more extensive than what we have been told about his online searches. I'm curious as to what you learned about searches as it pertains to attacking women when they are passed out, drunk, in some type of a stupor. What did you learn?

Everything he searched for was non-consensual sex acts. So think rape, sleeping, passed out, voyeurism. Nothing was what we would typically in digital forensics called normal porn searches. also learn of Coburger's attempt to erase everything digitally listen. Three days after the murders, Coburger runs an eraser software on his laptop, which is used to wipe data from the hard drive. The Celebrite team uncovers digital evidence even after Coburgers' best effort to scrub anything incriminating from his laptop and cell phone.

They even discovered a pattern where Coburger went to extreme lengths to try to delete and hide his digital footprint using VPN's incognito-mignt. modes and clearing his browsing history. Heather, what does that mean? He intended to commit this murder, all these murders. He purposely powered down his own. He purposely cleaned up data from the device. And what's interesting is the gap is about a month before the murders even happened. So what was on that computer that he needed to hide? That's what always drives me insane with this investigation. What exactly is incognito mode? Incognito mode is something specific to the Chrome browser that lets you remain anonymous.

It's not supposed to track any of your browser history. However, just like leading the sheath behind at the crime scene, he made mistakes. He downloaded if you bookmark and auto fill. So as you're typing things that you want to see when you're in private browsing or incognito, autofill remembers it because our computers and phones want to please us. They know that we are lazy humans that just want repetitive nature. So it remembers so it can remind you. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it.

They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen.

I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases, to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us, Annie Elise, creator and CEO of Tendalife, and star of Serialously a hit podcast.

Annie, again, thank you for being with us. It's my understanding that immediately after the murders, as soon as he turned his cell phone back on. He called his mother. Explain what you know. So they spoke on and off throughout the entire day and one of those conversations was around 90 minutes long, which of course in hindsight, I would be very curious to know what those conversations looked like. But it's interesting. We have heard that he is very socially isolated, that Brian has struggled to form personal close connections with peers, with partners. So through my case coverage and other cases, what I've learned from that is that people who are often heavily lean on a parent, usually

the mother too. They want that emotional regulation. They want to feel grounded. So I think that it makes sense that after the murders, he was trying to find his mom when he couldn't get a hold of her. That's when he texts his dad saying, father, why did mother not respond? And I think him calling her repeatedly and just wanting to have those conversations with her throughout the day could reflect his need for reassurance, for feeling grounded, especially if he was stressed and reeling from these murders. Heather Barnhart, with us, lead digital forensics investigator in the Brian Coburger case. Is that true? His long, long extended conversations with his mother, including immediately after the murders? It's true. And this is typical behavior for Brian

Coburger. He, every single morning, as early as 5 a.m. his time, up until he would finally go to sleep at night, constantly reaching out to mother and father. Okay, joining me, Karen Stark, renowned forensic psychologist, TV, radio trauma expert. What does it mean, Karen? Well, at least he never let go of his attachment to his parents, Nancy. He really didn't have friends, and he was overly dependent on them. So they were everything to him. When he's anxious, when something happens, he's calling them and only them. And at his age, You never see that. That's development that's been caused.

That's not somebody who's a grown-up. You know, to Dr. Priya Banerjee joining us, Board Certified Forensic Pathologist at Anchor Forensics Pathology, Dr. Priya, I'm trying to figure out because I think there's a tie-in here. What is your analysis of why his hands are so bright neon red in that leaked jailhouse video? Oh, yes. I think it's, you know, the soap's not the nicest probably, right? And I think that it's a harsh soap and it is repetitive use.

You know, he's getting basically, he's scrubbing past the surface with irritation. And I think you can see the repetitive nature of everything he does. And he just can't get clean enough. And his anxiety is probably playing into it too. That, you know, his circumstances are less. than ideal for him and he just can't get a control over it and he seems to be like a control obsessive control freak if you will and that's really you know the cycle that he's trying to break but he can't and I think it's using the same soap and scrubbing nature

that's really irritating things so Karen Stark how does the obsessive handwashing fit in with the mommy complex he's got he's got a lot of problems nephew these are all psychological issues. He's obsessive compulsive. That's anxiety. So he spends his time, not socially, but washing his hand, repeatedly doing

things like cleaning the shoes that we saw. And his obsession with his mom if you think about it, it's very eerie because you do not find that and someone is older. So he's not

having any kind of a social life. He's isolated. He wants to be isolated. And it's all about his connection to his parents. Actually, I'm surprised that he went out to school because he can't connect with other people. Returning to his apartment after killing four people, Brian Coburger calls his mother. He then decides to return to the scene of the crimes around 9 a.m. and has two conversations with his mother around this time. Forensic analysis of his phone reveals Coburger had no texts with friends or anyone outside his family other than a single. group chat. He's also extremely awkward in texting with his parents, calling them mother and father. He likes communicating with his mother more than his father, and even

texted saying, father, why did mother not respond? Why is she not answering the phone? Joining us an all-star panel first to Josh Coles Rood, veteran trial lawyer, joining us at a Phoenix. I find all of the evidence we're learning now to be very probative specifically as it relates to clearly planning the four murders far in advance. There's detailed planning a forethought. That's true. However, a prosecutor can lose a case in a variety of ways that have nothing to do with a defendant's guilt. So in this case, the FBI used a controversial technique in order to identify who Brian Coburg is or was.

And that's the investigative genetic genealogy technique where they would take the DNA found on the knife sheet and they would create a fake profile on a genealogy website that prohibits law enforcement from doing this kind of behavior. And then they would plug it in and then ask the genealogy website if there are any relatives that are related to the fake profile. that they created. And that's what they did in this case. But that's, it doesn't just stop there. They gave the information to the local police. And then they told them not to tell somebody. They told them to keep it a secret and to pretend like they had discovered this information

on their own. To Heather Barnhart. Heather, what else, if anything, did you find on Koeberger's phone? Oh my gosh. We found so much from paranoia looking for federal wiretapping to even a screenshot of you, Nancy and crime stories from YouTube cashed to his device. I'm sorry, repeat? Yes, you. It seems

as if he would watch crime stories, your show on YouTube, and it was cast to his phone. Okay, back to Karen Stark. Oh, what, if anything, does that mean, Karen? If we look at what he's interested in, what he's obsessed about when he's Christmas Eve,

and he's looking at his phone, and he's looking up serial killers, then it makes perfect sense that he would be watching you and crime stories with Nancy Grace. What is a better place? I can't think of any. And to go and to watch you look at things, look at people who are analyzing, talk about killers.

We talked about serial killers. So it makes perfect sense to me that you would be primary on his phone. And he would be wanting to check you out and actually admire you. Heather Barnhart, what did you mean by the, was it a, photo or was it our program? What did he have in the cash? It was YouTube. For crime story specifically, it would be him watching YouTube and the phone is just smart enough and it will take little snippets and snapshots as you're watching something. So he was watching your show and the picture of you and the title of crime stories was saved on his device. To Chris McDonough joining me

who has worked over 300 homicides, 25 years in L.A. Star of the interview room on YouTube. Okay. It's typical to isolate onto, say, your prosecutor or a particular witness against you. But that's really freaky. Watching crime stories and or me to the point his phone saves it. Yeah. I mean, think about that in its totality here, right?

Nancy, I mean, he's like a sign. who looks at bugs, you know, and of how he sees people. And what he does with, obviously, with observing, you know, criminal shows like yourself here, is he's wanting to learn from you. So he's seeing you a little bit different. I mean, if you look at his contacts in his phone, he's got one of his contacts. He identifies her as air. Okay.

Now think about that. He has depersonalized everything in life down to a singular word, and it's not even a name. So it does not surprise me at all. You know, we may not understand the why on this guy. We definitely understand the what, okay? What's in his mind and then what he did and how he executed it. All of the plotting, the planning, the scheming, the malice of forth. would typically lead a prosecutor to seek the death penalty when four innocent people were

savagely murdered. That did not happen. And now when everything is all set and done, we're finding out the truth. Is there any way the feds will step in and seek the federal death penalty? What more will we learn about Brian Coburger. And who and why was that video leaked? And can Brian Coburger get crime stories behind bars? Nancy Gray signing off. Goodbye, friend. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our

lifetime. On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case. has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology's already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.