Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'EMPIRE' Star Convicted of Faking Hate Crime on Self Files Appeal

Episode Date: June 17, 2023

Empire co-star Jussie Smollett is out of jail while attorneys appeal his conviction for lying to police about a hate crime attack against him. Smollett began serving his 150 day sentence, but just days later the actor was released. Smollett’s attorneys arguing that he would complete the sentence by the time the process was completed. They also cited homophobic threats received by the actor in their request for emergency release. The special prosecutor responded to the motion by saying it was “factually incorrect.” Two of the three members of the appellate court agreed with Smollett’s attorneys.    Now just hours before the court's final deadline  to file, the paperwork was delivered to the court.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Former Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States"  Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect" (Miami Beach, FL) Paul Szych - Former Police Commander (Albuquerque, NM), Author: "StopHimFromKillingThem" on Amazon Kindle, StopHimFromKillingThem.com, Twitter: @WorkplaceThreat Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009    Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why won't he go away? I'm talking about race attack faker, Jussie Smollett. You know, when people are given everything beyond their wildest imaginations, fame, he was a star of Empire, a hit program on cable TV. Many people think he's handsome and charismatic, making money hand over fist. What more does this guy want? He's got a loving family. His mother adores him. Well, it ain't over yet. After Jussie Smollett convicted of staging a hate crime on himself, good gravy, he has now filed an appeal. He is filing an appeal of his conviction for staging an anti-gay racist attack on himself and then lying to Chicago police about it.

Also, letting two brothers, the Osindoro brothers, take the fall. But where did the whole thing start? And does this guy have a chance on appeal? I want you to listen to this from the Today Show. I'm not suicidal and I'm innocent. I could have said that I was guilty a long time ago. Even after a Cook County judge sentenced Jussie Smollett to 150 days in jail, the disgraced actor turned convicted felon sticking to his story. If I did this, then it means that I stuck my fist in the fears of black Americans

in this country for over 400 years. The former empire star's unwavering claim of innocence, ultimately his undoing. She committed hour upon hour upon hour of pure perjury. Judge James Lynn sentencing Smollett to 30 months felony probation, including that jail time, ordering he pay more than $120,000 in restitution to the city of Chicago and pay the maximum fine, $25,000. You've turned your life upside down by your misconduct and shenanigans. You've destroyed your life as you knew it. As a defiant, Smollett was taken into custody, his family blasting the judge's decision. He's the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. They's the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes.

They're the reason why folks aren't going to report hate crimes. Okay, you heard Jussie Smollett going down swinging, lying through his teeth till the end. And when you hear that reporter going on and on about 30 months felony probation, probation, that means you're not in jail. This guy, after all he put everyone through, after the disservice he did to real crime victims, he's going to do about five days behind bars. He got sentenced to 150 days, and now he's done about five days i'm nancy grace this is crime stories

thank you for being with us with me an all-star panel matthew mangino former district attorney lawrence county former parole board member author executioners toll dr sherry schwartz forensic psychologist specializing in capital crimes author author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect, Paul Zeit, former police commander, who I can't wait to hear what he's going to say, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. But first to Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, you know, the whole thing goes all the way back to his ridiculous claims of a hate crime perpetrated upon him because he I guess his main thing was that he was gay or because he was black it was a mixture when he went out for a 3 a.m. subway run.

How in the hay has Smollett gotten out after just a few days? So the judge spent almost an hour telling him all of the reasons why he was putting him behind bars. The reasons was he was found guilty of five felony counts of disorderly conduct for lying to police about his hate crime. He says that he was attacked at two o'clock in the morning in Chicago in the dead of winter, absolutely sub freezing weather. Two men he claimed wearing red hats that said make America great again, MAGA hats, he blamed this on Trump, said they attacked him and said this is Trump country and beat him up and tried

to hang him by putting a noose over his head. The jury said this was a big fat lie and beat him up and tried to hang him by putting a noose over his head. The jury said this was a big, fat lie and found him guilty of lying. So the judge sentences him to jail. He appeals. Well, he first asked the judge, can I have an appeal? The judge says, no, you're going right to jail. Goes to jail. His lawyers file a claim with the appellate court and say he has been sentenced to only five months in jail, only five months. We want to appeal this. We're going to drag this appeal out longer than five

months. So if you keep our client in for the whole five months, and then when it's done, the appeal court overturns the conviction, he will have unnecessarily served this time. I don't care. Jussie Smollett, hate crime faker, walks out of jail after release, serving less than a week of just 150 days. Hey, does everybody remember when Paris Hilton went to jail and she was going to do what? She got like a six- month sentence, something like that. She did three weeks, maybe because the jail was overcrowded. Was that Nicole Richie? One of them. And it was high drama. And the bottom line is when you have a sentence like 150 days,

you're going to get out really quickly anyway but to petition the court to get out early after what has gone down take a listen our cut 29 our friend patrick eldwood wgn almost three years after he reported being attacked amid homophobic and racial slurs actor jesse smollett took the stand in his own defense while being questioned by his attorney smollett described the early morning incident saying he had gone out to walgreens to buy eggs but it was closed so he opted for a subway sandwich store instead on his way home smollett says he crossed paths with two men wearing ski masks with one of them yelling racial and homophobic slurs and saying he was in MAGA country while recognizing him as an actor on the TV show Empire. Smollett

says he threw a punch in his defense but doesn't know if it landed. He fell to the ground and was kicked. He testified that after the attack he didn't even know there was a noose around his neck because, quote, I was getting my ass whooped, unquote. But yet there were no injuries. He had a tiny little cut. And I don't know how many pictures he took of it. Now take a listen to our cut. Thirty three. Our friend Charlie DeMar CBS News Chicago.

The actor also told the jury that he would do drugs with Abel Osindaro and the two had a physical relationship. He said during a bathhouse encounter, there was some touching. Abel denies those claims. I'm ready to do what I got to do. It's likely that the case will hinge on whether the jury believes Smollett or brothers Abel and Ola Osindaro, who testified Smollett paid them to fake the attack. Wait, let me understand something. Abel and Ola Osindaro, who testified Smollett paid them to fake the attack. Wait, let me understand something. Alexis Tereschuk, the payment was tracked down. Wasn't it a check? The payment was tracked down and he tried to tell the jury that these two guys that he did drugs with, that he went to a bathhouse with, that he allegedly had romantic

attachment with, sex with, they're the ones that attacked him and they're the ones he couldn't identify. No wonder the jury didn't believe him. Exactly. These are guys that he's been friends with for years. And in fact, they were known to people on the set of Empire. They are personal trainers, but he wrote them a check, an absolute paper trail, undeniable paper trail, even though he says it was for something else, maybe drugs or maybe anything else. He can't really remember. But also, he doesn't care because these two, he doesn't, Empire star, Jussie Smollett, has walked out of jail after about five days on a 150-day conviction. Straight out to Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, joining us. This guy needs a shrink. Well, that does seem to be the consensus,

at least in the psychological community, Nancy. Anybody who fakes something like this, an illness, a crime, or they fake injury, typically what we start to look at is something called factitious disorder. If you think about Munchausen's by proxy, when that's done to other people to get sympathy for yourself this is kind of where you do it to yourself to get sympathy for yourself but in this case he might also have um in you know not so much a mental health disorder like

that where he's almost sympathetic but this might have been for personal gain in terms of promoting some movie project that he was working on to get publicity. Oh, he got publicity, Dr. Sherry Swartz, didn't he, Alexis Teresichuk? But who's ever going to hire him, ever? That's the thing. This is, his career is absolutely over. Empire was a huge, huge show.

To hang with his career? What about Lady Justice? An appeal bond? My rear end? Why do you need a jury if you're going to then give the defendant an appeal on what the jury just did? Why did you strike a jury? Okay, back to you, Alexis Terrestriak. I know you're in Hollywood and that's your mindset. My mindset is about how hard I fought to prove convictions, to prove cases.

Put a jury through H-E-double-L, missing work, away from your children, away from your home. You know, nothing drives me crazier than have to be away from the twins. And they're in court all day long. Listen to this guy whine about how bad he's got. How much was he getting paid an episode, Alexis? than have to be away from the twins. And they're in court all day long. Listen to this guy whine about how bad he's got. How much was he getting paid an episode, Alexis? $200,000 an episode. An episode.

Did you hear that? Did you hear that? Whining, carrying on. And he's been behind bars. What's five times 24? Is that 120 something? He hasn't even been behind bars 200 hours and he's out he has he has walked free there the appellate court has three judges it was not a unanimous decision it was two to one majority rules and he walked out of court at 8 p.m chicago time in a whole hollywood production again you know jesse

has five bodyguards he has family members he has defense attorneys the biggest entourage you've ever seen outside of the tv show entourage it's like everything is a hollywood production for him guys take a listen our cut 32 our friends from. Smollett testified he resisted calling Chicago police because, quote, I am a black man in America. I do not trust the police, unquote. But later, he said responding officers treated him very well. He testified as a gay black man. He felt the incident would emasculate him and hurt his chances for certain types of future acting roles. Earlier in the day, Smollett testified he met the Osindaro brothers through his job on Empire

and that he went to a Chicago bathhouse with one of them where they did drugs and made out. Prosecutors say he recruited the brothers to stage the attack as a way to pump up his career. Smollett has admitted to paying the brothers $3,500, but says that was for weight training and diet consultation. Okay. Hi, guys. Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil, the Bundy and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation, we bring together an incredible panel of guests who analyze

disturbing similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who described their life before and after they were victims of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator Bill Warner, who worked in the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We travel to Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors of Brian Koberger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Koberger. Don't miss Parallels of Evil, The Bundy and Idaho Killings, streaming now exclusively on Fox Nation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us it's not over with jesse smollett

he just won't go away or is this part of another pr public relations plan on his part to get more money and another job on camera who knows because reportedly the motive for the original race attack staging was to drum up PR about himself so he would make more money for his role in Empire. Police put into solving the so-called anti-gay attack on Smollett. And last but not least, basically framing the two Osundaro brothers to take the fall for a fake attack. And now we're supposed to believe his motion for a new trial, his appeal. Let's take another look at the facts matthew mangino former district attorney lawrence county former parole board member author executioners toll go ahead hit me well there's no question that you're angry uh at uh jesse small ed but i think we have to separate i'm more angry at the judges to let him go yes well and i understand that as well but but you know you're mad at him but we need to separate the

people we're mad at from the people that we're afraid of and uh why is a four this is a class four felony uh in most cases in illinois this this would be flat probation no jail time you know because he's a Hollywood name you know should we treat him more harshly than we would typically other people who file false reports with the police okay wait who can you name me one person that filed a false report with police in your jurisdiction that took it to a jury trial and claimed he was the victim of a racial and homophobic hate crime? Name one. Well, I'm sure there have been. No, no, no.

Name one. Don't tell me, yeah, there have been. Who did something like this? Well, I don't know, really, of anybody who faked their own assault. Their own hate crime. They wouldn't do that, their own hate crime, because they don't have anything to gain from it. The worst conjuring, Matthew Mangino, is the noose. The noose for a black male to have a noose put around his neck and then we find out isn't this right

alexis tereshak and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong i'd rather know the truth didn't it come out that he took the noose off and then put it back on so the cops could get it in their body cam footage when they came back he is screwing around with one of the vilest and most hated symbols in our country. What happened to so many black males? Awful, awful history. And he conjures that up like an evil magician and puts it on and takes it off for effect. Yes. Hell yes, he ought to be in jail. Isn't that what happened? Alexis Tereschuk? It is.

And in fact, he said that these random attackers put this noose on him. The brothers were on video at a store buying the rope. They didn't do this of their own. This wasn't their idea. They did this because he told them what to buy

because this would have made the crime more salacious. And Matthew Mangino, I mean a renowned lawyer and author, former district attorney, now private lawyer. Matthew Mangino, you're telling me that, hey, this happens all the time and they don't go to jail. BS. This does not

happen all the time. they don't go to jail. B.S. This does not happen all the time. To prey on the fears of people all across the country, to prey on hatred and injustice, and use it for a PR boost to get a raise in your salary? Oh, no, no. He needs to be in jail, Mangino. Well, again, you know, we're mad at him we're angry at him uh but again is he is he a is he a threat to the society is he is he a person who we should be

afraid of who's going to be turned loose on the streets I mean you know if he wasn't a celebrity we would have heard nothing about this case uh you know, the fact that he's a celebrity, the fact that he doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. That's the whole if a tree falls in the forest. Does anybody hear it? Yeah, it can be heard. Even if you're not there, it still makes a sound whether he's a celebrity or not. He did this thing. Right. And people in similar situations who are convicted of class for felonies in Illinois don't go to jail. But you haven't been able to name another similar situation, have you?

Another actor who's done something like this? No, I don't know of anyone. Anyone that's done something like this preyed on prejudices and hate and a horrible hateful history of targeting people and the worst conjuring of all the noose i mean it goes on and on and on i want to go to paul zeich former police commander author of of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon Kindle. Paul Zeich, what do you think? Well, I think you had two dozen detectives that engaged in 3,000 hours plus of investigation to bring an offender to justice that did not exist. And the fact that the officers were chasing essentially a ghost is something they're not equipped really.

And you could go two careers without finding this exact situation where a, a top flight actor or, or any sort of a high profile individual or any victim, so to speak, would make up an entire story and have props and have all these other things to make you believe that these terrible things had happened. Furthermore, it also opens the door for an arrest to be made of the wrong people or people that never were involved. We're so worried about people being in prison who have 20, 30 years ago didn't do what they were accused of doing. This exact setup, this exact paradigm could have created a situation where if they believed him and not these other individuals, the people that he hired to commit these crimes, they could be in prison for the next 20 years.

And who's looking at that? And not to mention the political motivation behind it, all that's just sickening. Law enforcement, as in me as a human being, it is the worst within mankind for something like this to happen to be completely false. And nobody's really prepared for that. But guess what? It happens and it just did. In the last hour, star of Empire, Justice Millett, demands a new trial after's staged for faking a hate crime on himself. In the last weeks, the Empire star files the appeal in an investigation where Chicago cops conclude Smollett hired the two Osindaro brothers to carry out the crime. He was sentenced to, wait for it, 150 days in jail last year.

But because of all of his moaning and groaning and crying and snotting, he actually got out on an appeal bond to walk free until his case is decided. Is there a chance this guy could somehow swing a new trial? You know, Paul, go ahead. I'll circle back to Zyke. Go ahead. Okay, real quick. This is my advantage, you know. And again, you know, I understand the time that was put into this case.

But you had 25 police officers investigating a false report to the police. There were 800 homicides. Whoa, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You had all these cops investigating what they believe to be a hate crime, a possible attempted murder even by putting a noose around his neck on a celebrity because he's black, because he's black because he's gay that's what they were investigating and then all roads led back to jesse smollett right they found the purple all right it

was smollett yeah let's put it in perspective 800 homicides in chicago and you got 25 police officers investigating this this no you are not turning this back around on the cops. They think that someone out there. Wait, wait. Alexis Tereshak, at some point, did he say that the perps threw bleach on him? He did. Oh, dear Lord in heaven.

I mean, come on, Zyke. Help me out here. You hear me and Gino. If you believe that there are perps out there that are throwing bleach on a victim, beating them, wrapping a noose around their neck, taunting them, yeah, you're going to look for the perps. And then the fact that the victim's a celebrity making this crime high profile, giving your city a black eye. yes, the cops are all over a potential

hate crime because hate doesn't die. That perp will do it again and again and release his hate in another way. The perp had to be stopped. And you've got Mangino trying to turn this around on a cop. So there's that question. But this is what I was going to ask you earlier. It makes me think, what's it all for? Why did I beat my brains out trying to put bad guys behind bars every day, working till three and four in the morning sometimes for this, for the PERP to be let out. How do you think those Sandaro brothers feel? How do you think the jurors feel? The cops who stand by and see all that work, all that effort, for what?

What about it, Zyke? Well, here's the thing. We talked about those 24 officers, and you can imagine the emotions they're going through. They're PO'd. I bet they feel defeated. Defeated. Absolutely. They put all that in for nothing.

Any good cop that's worth their weight, and there's a lot of them in this country, by the way, take that as a personal insult that somebody in their city could possibly be the victim of a hate crime and have all these heinous things done to them. Their position is going to be, I'm not going home. I'm not going to bed until I find the people that did this and bring them to justice, not on my watch. And to have all that be turned around and be an absolute farce and just sham of the criminal justice system, those officers, I guarantee you, are defeated. Hell, they may even need counseling at the end of that. I mean, when you work that hard, I mean, Alexis Therese Chuck, you have been around me when I've been working on a case.

I live it. I breathe it. I eat it. I drink it. That's what I think about until it's solved. And that can take days, weeks, months, sometimes longer. And when you finally crack a case, it finally goes to trial. And then this, I mean, I agree with Zyke.

It's just such a defeat for everyone that worked the case. And, you know, the police officers, they, in the very beginning, believed him. They believed Smollett. They actually were stopping so many people because he had given a description of his attackers. So they were questioning everybody in town. They were going to find the perpetrators. Little did they know they were his two friends that he was hanging out with all the time that he paid to do this. But they were very serious about trying to find the suspect.

Don't you know that prosecutor is beside himself? Take a listen to our cut. V for this jury worked so hard and for Mr. Smollett to get up in front of them and lie for hours and hours and hours. That really compounded his misconduct. And quite frankly, when I saw that happen in the courtroom, at least for me as a trial lawyer that spent my life in the courtroom, we don't expect defendants to do that. Defendants have a right to go to trial. Defendants have a right to argue that their case has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

But defendants do not have the right to go in front of a jury and lie under oath. Mr. Smollett would not have lost this case as he did today unless the jury found that he lied to them. And so that was something that I was very proud that this jury came to the conclusion that he's guilty. And the fact that he came up with a completely ridiculous story to explain his misconduct did not apparently have an impact on the jury's verdict. Boy, I'd love to hear what the jurors have to say today. Take a listen now to our cut. V4A Alpha. There's two things that I think stuck with the jury. Number one, I think my basic argument that it is ridiculous to think that Smollett left his apartment on the night of January 29th at 2 o'clock in the morning to go buy eggs. And that that's his explanation for why he ended up right at that intersection, right at two o'clock in the morning

that the brother said is where he told them the attack should take place. So the fact that it actually happened that way, I think was pretty profound. I also think that sometimes it's simple things. He actually rigged that rope after that rope got put on him. I showed the picture to the jury. Pictures don't lie. Those pictures showed that he actually, after he went through this fake attack, wanted to make it look better, and he jimmied with the rope to make the noose look closer to his throat and rustled around because the rope you saw in the courtroom was nice and neat around his neck because old Austin Darrell didn't have time to do much with it because a car came. And so he ran away. He left the rope next to his face. Smollett got up, put it around his neck.

And then when it didn't look bad enough, he changed it. And I think that impacted the jury. Alexis Tereschuk, is it true that Smollett refused to eat? It sounds like a child refusing to eat, having a little tantrum. He wouldn't eat behind bars. And for Pete's sake, it's the local jail. Anybody ever seen Andy and Mayberry? For Pete's sake, when Otis would let himself in and out. It's not like he's in the pen. He's not in Alcatraz. He's not in max security in the hole, for Pete's sake. He wouldn't eat. So he claimed that he had given up food for Lent. So he was fasting for the entire duration of Lent, the 40 days of Lent. So he says that he gave up food six days before he actually was sentenced to jail. So he, I guess at this point is now not eating for 11 days i bet it was a religious

thing so he was gonna starve for 40 days he was not gonna eat for 40 days the 40 days preceding easter do i understand you yes okay that's a lie there's no way jesse smollett was not gonna eat for 40 days that's just that's just not true but fine another lie by jesse smollett and now he's dragging easter into it did you hear that man gino he's dragging easter in well the only person i know that fasted for 40 days was jesus and just do not do not start on him don't do not i don't even want to hear him dragged into this conversation for pete's. But I do agree that you're right. That's the only person I've ever known to starve themselves for 40 days and 40 nights. And although he was greatly tempted, he didn't give in.

Smollett, however, is still lying through his teeth. So Alexis Tereshchuk, he had nothing but water behind bars. Correct. The mean streets of the Cook County local jail, right? It is, but the Cook County jail is not a Cush jail. It is a notoriously bad jail. Well, what do you think jail is, Alexis Tereshchuk? Where are you joining me from, Rodeo Drive this morning?

No, I'm not on Rodeo Drive, but I am in Los Angeles. But jail is jail, but the Cook County Jail is pretty bad as well. It's not a nice one. Well, it's jail. What do you want it to be, a spa? Well, I also think that he was getting fairly special treatment, but they said that they were. Well, you're right about that didn't he get moved uh from one place to the next so he could be what did he go to the medical ward so he could have a different

surrounding he was in you know what take a listen to our cut see this is leah hope abc7 four days into the 150 day sentence jesse smollett remains in protective custody at the Cook County Jail, and his family remains steadfast in their support of the former TV star who was convicted for lying to police about a hate crime hoax. He's very strong. It's a very angering situation. It's been a complete mental marathon for him and my family, but he's very strong. He's very focused. Smollett's youngest brother visited him yesterday at the jail where smollett is in a cell by himself and being monitored in the medical way crime stories with nancy grace

welcome back guys remember smollett told chicago police he was attacked on a dark street by two masked strangers that put a noose around his neck signifying a lynching of a black male, pouring chemicals on him while yelling racist, homophobic slurs. They somehow even managed to work in support for Donald Trump. Wow, that's quite the coinkydink. The brothers, who actually testified in court, told the jury Smollett hired them to fake the attack only because he wanted more money and to bolster, boost his celebrity profile. Smollett later said that in the days before the fake race attack. He and the brothers were together, but not to rehearse the attack.

They were actually just getting high on pot. Matthew Mangino, former district attorney, Lawrence County, former parole board member, author, executioner, is told, Matthew, the medical wing is a cushy area. You're not in general population. There are very few inmates in there. There are nurses walking around. They're measuring your hydration and your pulse and all that. Why was he in the medical wing? Well, you're right that the medical wing

is like a hospital within a correctional facility. Maybe it's because he was starving himself. I don't know. You know, that's curious that he would be in the medical wing other than his absurd fasting. But again, should he even be in jail is the question. I believe that the jury decided that, and you're still talking about it? The jury decided he was guilty.

The judge decided that he had're still talking about it the jury decided he was guilty the judge decided that he had to go to jail um and again if you're going to look at similar class four felonies in illinois they don't they don't involve jail again again matthew mangino you keep talking about similar crimes, but yet you have been unable to name one crime that you can specify that is similar to this crime. The breadth of his hoax on Lady Justice is beyond compare and still lying through his teeth as he sips ice water. Take a listen to our cut E from Fox. Jussie Smollett going free, at least for now, while he tries to get his sentence overturned. The appeals court ordered Jussie's release during the appeals process.

He will first have to post a bond of $150,000 before he's let out of Cook County Jail, although it's unclear when exactly he'll be able to walk free. Jesse started serving his five months last Thursday, and immediately after the judge sentenced him, he started shouting that he was innocent and raising his fist in the air as he was taken out of the court in handcuffs. Tense moments inside of the courtroom in this video. His defense team and his family members never stopped asking for his release, claiming that Jussie was in physical harm while behind bars. They cited racist and homophobic threats that they had received and also said Jussie was highly susceptible to contracting COVID-19 while in jails. Really?

Racist and homophobic threats? Again? That second verse, same as the first Alexis Tereszczuk, that's what he claimed the first time. For all I know, it's Smollett from the Cook County pay phone calling his family. I mean, they're tuning up with that again? I mean, if these threats were real, it would be different, but they've already been proved to be a lie, which does an injustice

to every hate crime victim out there that has been targeted because they're black, because they're gay, because they're Asian, because they're a woman, because they're fill in the blank, hate, hate, because of who you are. And they're, they're preying on that again. You know, prisoners that are, that are incarcerated complain all the time about how they have so little access to the outside world. It's very expensive to make a phone call. The calls are collect number one, but go ahead. And so the fact that they're saying after five days that social media, Twitter, Instagram is affecting how Jesse is or Mr. Smollett somehow affect people behind bars as if that information has infiltrated you know some sort of scary group behind bars it's going to then target uh small that it it defies logic you know matthew mangino high profile lawyer joining us former district attorney in lawrence county now author matthew how many times has one of your clients gotten an appeal bond, which means after you're convicted at trial, typically by a jury, the judge says, oh, you know what,

never mind about that conviction thing. You're going to walk free to an appeals court. For instance, the Illinois Supreme Court rules on your case. And then after they rule, maybe you can appeal it on up to the Circuit Court of Appeals. And after that, hey, maybe you can take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. You just don't know how far this appeal is going to go. But the whole time, you can stay out behind bars. I mean, why even have a jury trial? Well, to answer your question, you know,

it's not entirely unusual to get an appeal bond. How many have you had? Well, I'm just, just let me finish. It's not entirely unusual to get one from a trial judge who heard the case, who thinks that maybe you have an appeal that has some merit to it based on him having observed the trial. So, you know, he may grant that. It is unusual to within five days, at least in my experience, to have an appellate court intervene and say this person should have an appeal bond over the denial of the trial judge. That's unusual. I can't say that I've ever seen that. Can I ask you a question? Yes.

How many times as a prosecutor did you get a conviction on a case and then that person get out on an appeal bond? It's rare. Ever? Because that never had to happen to me as a prosecutor. Not once. Did one person that I took to trial and there was a commission get out while they appealed the conviction. That never happened.

And that was 10 solid years of inner city Atlanta high crime. I mean, I don't disagree with you. So never. Never in your history. But if you have a trial. You're not answering. I'm sorry, Matthew Mangino. You're not answering.

How often did that ever happen to you? Did it ever happen? I would say a couple of times, maybe, in eight years as a prosecutor, where a judge granted an appeal bond, when in fact that judge... On one of your cases. I didn't hear the number. I'd say a couple. As a district attorney, every case was mine. So then two. I'd say a couple of times it's happened. All right. I've never had it happen.

Who's jumping in? Is that Paul Zeit? Yeah, Nancy, I'd just like to make a quick comment. And that is, you know, when you look at this from the flip side, let's just say he would have been successful. Let's say that his plot would not have been discovered. He essentially would be setting up one or two or more people to spend, you know, a decade or two behind bars just to promote his career. And that angle is not really being thought of in this. Yeah, he lied. Yes, he wasted a lot of time. Yes, he had a lot of resources diverted to him. but if his end game would have

happened, the perversion of justice would have been unimaginable. You know, you're right. Those Sandaro brothers could have gone down for years on end for a hate crime, for throwing bleach on Smollett, for beating him up, for attacking him in the night, putting a noose around his neck. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what exactly is a pathological liar? Well, this is somebody who, I mean, to put it really simply, if their lips are moving, they're lying. That's how you can think about them because the lies literally just come out of their mouths with great deal of ease. Research on pathological liars shows that if they're hooked up to an EKG to check their pulse and things like that, that they lie and they really don't experience that same kind

of physical reaction that somebody who's telling a lie that doesn't normally lie would like anxiety and things like that heightened arousal they they just lie for the sake of lying lie for the sake of lying to alexis teresha crime online.com investigative reporter smollett's lawyers filed what we call an emergency motion claiming that if he stayed in jail, he would have a physical threat, even though he was being held in protective custody. What are the grounds on which his defense lawyers argued he should be out on appeal bond. Well, that is what they say. They say that he is in danger of being threatened by people. But they also said this appeal could take months and months and months,

much longer than the 150 days that our client has been sentenced to jail. So if in the very end, you know, one year from now, his appeal is granted and his conviction is overturned, he will have already served that time. And you can't take that back. You can't, there's no way to fix that you serve time that you weren't supposed to ultimately serve. So that is what they argued, that the appeal would take longer than the sentence would. So he should be out on bond during that time. And in fact, they imposed one on him, $150,000. And they said, but he didn't have to pay that up front. But if he misses any more court cases, he's going to have to pay that. So many allowances made for this. Jesse Smollett now demands a new trial.

You know what? Be careful what you wish, my dear, for you will surely get it. A new trial? Could that mean a new sentence? A really long sentence? We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend.

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