Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'EMPIRE' Star Fakes Hate Crime on Self? Jussie Smollett Trial Commences

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Actor Jussie Smollett’s Chicago trial on charges that he faked a hate crime attack on himself has begun. 39-year-old Smollett was starring in the television show “Empire” when he claimed he was attacked by two men who hurled racial and homophobic slurs at him. They also left a noose around his neck. Two brothers who worked as extras on “Empire” later came forward and said Smollett had paid them to “attack” him. Prosecutors charged the actor but Cook County Prosecutor Kim Foxx dropped all the charges in return for community service and forfeiture of his bond. Outrage prompted the appointment of a special prosecutor, who indicted Smollett on six disorderly conduct charges.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Prof. Brian Levin - Director, Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism, California State University (San Bernardino), Co-author: "The Limits of Dissent", CSUSB.edu/Hate-and-Extremism-Center, Twitter: @proflevin LAWYER - Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com 'Today with Dr. Wendy' on KCBQ in San Diego, Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009 TIP LINE: Chicago Police Department [phone] Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jussie Smollett on trial finally. Prosecutors claim he fabricated a hate crime on himself. Will a jury believe it? I only pray he takes the stand in his own defense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. He's billing it as a trial of the century.

I doubt that seriously. But what really burns me up is that I have worked with hate crime victims and prosecuted hate crimes in front of juries. And if it's true that he fabricated a hate crime on himself, will juries hold that against hate crime victims in the future and doubt their victimization? The fact that he was a star on the hit series Empire has drawn a lot of attention to this trial going down right now. Take a listen to our cut. Hey, this is Dean Reynolds at CBS. How do you feel about these new charges? Smollett's plea of not guilty came almost a year after he was originally booked for fabricating the story of an attack on him by homophobic Trump

supporters. Those original charges were abruptly dropped without much of a reason, and a judge appointed a special prosecutor to take another look. Through it all, Smollett has insisted he was a victim, and his lawyers have accused brothers Abel and Ola Osundaro of beating him up on that sub-zero January night last year. The brothers admit involvement, but only in a patty-cake publicity stunt concocted by Smollett, which police say was done to get the actor a raise. They have been truthful since day one. The former Empire star's lawyer, Tina Glandian, wants the case dismissed. He's obviously frustrated to be dragged through this process again.

As are many in Chicago. But who, like Mayor Lori Lightfoot, believe Jussie Smollett should be punished. What do we want? Jussie! Let me understand everything that I just heard. He is frustrated that he, Smollett, has to go through this process again? Well, maybe he should have thought about that before he fabricated a hate crime on himself. But you know what? Let's hear all the evidence before we try and convict and sentence Smollett. But I'm just trying to put it together what his claim is.

His claim, as I understand it, is Alexis Torres-Shutt, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. If I have it right, and please jump in. Everybody on the panel, I'm going to introduce you. One second. I just want to understand. Do I have the facts right? He flies in from out of town. His flight is late, and that's significant. He gets home, and then in the middle of the night, he decides not to make a bowl of cereal or a piece of cheese toast. He decides to go out for a snack. I'm talking about in the middle of the night, like 2 a.m., something like that.

And he comes down from his luxury high rise and goes outside and he claims two males put a rope around his neck, trying to throw bleach on him and a hate crime is because he's gay. So it's a gay hate crime? That is what he said initially.

He said, when he said two men attacked him, he described very specifically that one had a red MAGA hat on. Now that is Make America Great Again, a Donald Trump hat. He said they were Donald Trump supporters and they were saying homophobic slurs against him because he was gay. He says because he's gay. Yes. And he said that they were attacking him and and using homophobic slurs against him. And the purpose of the bleach and the noose what does that have to do with him being gay? That would be more the bleach is just we're gonna hurt you because you

know the bleach would hurt you but the noose was more of that is where it comes in as something racist. Okay see none of this makes any sense and you know why it doesn't make sense because it's not true the two attackers later were found out because they were caught on surveillance video and they know jesse smollett they know him wasn't it from a gym alexis stress chuck no they actually worked as extras on his television show empire which filmed in Chicago. They worked on it. Yes, but I thought one was like a personal trainer as well.

He was, yes. And then they trained him as well. Okay, so they did work out together. So how could they claim they, and they just happened to be outside his high rise at what, two o'clock? Okay, you know what? We're going to go through the whole thing but i am just so ticked off that he says he's frustrated that he has to go through this again guys again thank you for being with us let me introduce to you an all-star panel first of all a real expert in his

field professor brian levin director at the center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at the California State University at San Bernardino. He is also co-author of Limits of Dissent. Wendy Patchett with me, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon, host of Today with Dr. Wendy, KCBQ, San Diego. You can find her at WendyPatchettPhD.com. We're now in psychiatrists. Joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold, an expert in this field. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of yet another hit series, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart.

And I believe that title says it all. And, of course, Alexis Tereschuk with us, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. So what's the story? What's the case all about? Take a listen to our cut. Be our friend Charlie Wojcicki at NBC Chicago. Was Justice Millett the mastermind of his own hate crime? Today, his older brother defended him in the lobby of the courthouse.

We look forward to people hearing the actual facts in this case. The lead investigator on the case says he first considered the 39-year-old Empire actor a victim. But Detective Michael T. said as 24 to 26 investigators invested 3,000 man-hours into the case, pouring over more than 1,500 hours of surveillance video, they began to see things differently. Why all the effort? Tease told the jury, it was a horrible hate crime. There was a noose. There was bleach.

There was local news. This was national news. Everybody wanted to know what happened. And as it stands right now, the jury has been struck and the Smollett jurors have been shown surveillance video of the Empire star performing a wait for it dry

run the day before he allegedly faked the Chicago hate crime attack. A dry run. A dry run. A dry run. And it's on video. All right. I know we're supposed to wait until all the evidence is in, but let's analyze what we've got so far.

Back to you, Alexis Terrestri. Tell me about the hit series Empire. So this premiered in 2015 on Fox. It is about a wealthy family. They are rap moguls. And it's based in New York. It's filmed in Chicago, but based in New York. And he starred in it with Taraji P. Henson.

She is the most famous person on this show. And it's just about fabulously wealthy people in the music industry. I love this show. And I watched it religiously. And it was huge. It premiered with huge numbers. The season one premiere had like 17 million viewers. Did she play Cookie? Wait a minute. Did she play Cookie? She did. Yep. She was the star of the show and it was huge. It, it, everybody loved it. It was a

huge hit. And who was he in Empire? What was his character? He was one of the rappers on the show. It's about a whole family and fighting over who's going to get the money in the next generation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take a listen to our friends again at NBC Chicago. Our cutscene, this is Charlie Wojciechowski. After comparing video footage, cell phone records, GPS, and rideshare records, T says, we determined that the alleged hate crime was actually a staged event and never happened.

He played video showing Abimbola and Olabinjo Osundaro buying supplies for the attack. They say Smollett helped them plan and showed them a photo of the $3,500 check. They say they were paid for their role in the alleged hoax. After they are arrested by Chicago police, T says Smollett sent them a text that he released for the first time today. Brother, I love you. I stand with you. I know 1000% you and your brother did nothing wrong and never could. I am making this statement, the text goes on to say, so everyone knows they will not get away with this.

Please hit me up when they let you go. I am behind you fully. What? Please hit me up when they let you go. Because isn't it true, Alexis Tereshchuk, the two brothers were arrested at one point until the truth came out. They were. And it was a really this was a huge win for the police. They arrested the two suspects because they saw them on surveillance video. And, you know, they were identified because they took a ride share home, like an Uber or a Lyft.

And that was how they found these guys. That's a heck of a getaway car. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Have you ever seen a defendant that commits a hate crime? I don't care what kind of hate crime. Is it because of sex? Is it because of race? Is it because of gender?

Is it because of religion? Don because of race is it because of gender uh is it because of religion don't care hate is hate have you ever seen somebody leave a violent crime by cashing an uber or a lyft no absolutely not and you know and this is really a sign of the times this is the way we travel but people that travel that way know how easy it is to track them i have have worked on many hate crimes that actually were legitimate, but similar to this. I actually worked with Professor Levin on some of these types of crimes back in the day. But this is a new one, and I think it's probably something maybe they didn't think through beforehand, or we wouldn't have the great evidence we do. Maybe it's because they knew it wasn't a real crime, so they didn't really have to get away. Let's go to our expert, Professor Brian Levin, the Director at the Center for Study of Hate and Extremism.

It's a real honor to talk to you again, Dr. Levin, and I'm making light of Smollett's claims because I've seen so many hate crimes investigated and prosecuted them myself in front of juries, argued them up to the Georgia Supreme Court as well to hold the conviction, hold the hate crime conviction. And it, I'm happy because no one died. Number one, I'm always in a great mood, Professor Levin, when nobody's dead that day in the cases we cover. So I'm happy about that. Now that's setting the bar pretty low. You know, nobody died. That's the bar.

That's the good day. But it's almost, it's farcical that this is a real hate crime. But yet I'm doing a slow burn because just for instance, one hate crime that I, God, thank you for this, held on appeal was a series of black males across the city of Atlanta were raped and shot in the head during the sex attack. And all of these victims were linked by ballistics because the killer always used the same, as I recall,.38 caliber. And that's how he was tracked. I remember just staring at the composite in that case and working on that appeal, working, working, working, and going to the Georgia Supreme Court and arguing it in front of them and looking them in the eyes and arguing this case.

And I was so worried this guy was going to get off on appeal. I was just so worried. And there were many others. But when I think about those victims, and I think about somebody faking a hate crime, it just burns me up. Those victims are dead. And many other hate crime victims that I've worked on their cases,

they're dead. They're forever scarred. And here's Smollett jumping up with all that money, all that fame, the fancy high-rise, the fancy clothes, the works, and he is jobbing the system. I'm just, I'm angry. As you should be. And look, I don't want to get ahead of my skis here, just like you said with that disclaimer. But I'll tell you, that's a heck of a lot of evidence against him. You have physical evidence. You actually have the quote unquote perpetrators.

You have how the story doesn't add up. You know what I don't understand? Why didn't he take a plea? You know? Oh, that's a good question. Professor Levin, I've said that a million times. I said, why didn't Scott Peterson just plead guilty? Why didn't Tottenham just plead guilty?

Well, you know what? I don't, I'm a JD, not an MD professor. Let's go to the shrink on this. And I say that in a loving and caring way, Dr. Angie. I think it's because they can't admit to the world that they did this thing. They'd rather go to trial and hopefully, you know, they think they're going to get off. But prove to the world this didn't happen. They can't look their mother, their father, their family, their, in this case, their fans, and went, yeah, I think to hate crime on myself.

You know what I think, Nancy? I'm afraid. What? What do you think? Anything can happen right now. I think he really believes. I think the more times people tell themselves something, they actually come to believe it.

Mm-mm. And I think he's going to believe this because he's going to act like he believes it. And no, he's never going to admit to it. He's going to make a jury turn him in. You know what? I've heard that a million times. They really believe it. B.S.

Now, I don't think you got that in medical school, but I certainly learned it in law school. He knows he did this thing. What do you mean he believes he didn't do it? He can forever tell his family that jury got it wrong, right? Well, this is, okay, here's another uneducated opinion when it comes to psychiatry. Go with me on this, Dr. Levin. Tell me what you think, Professor Levin. Um, I think that people tell the same story and they think, oh, okay, I can explain this and I can explain that and this and that. And they shore up all the holes in their story. And then they

start getting mad when you don't believe them because in their mind, they've got it all explained away. I think that's what they get indignant about. You know, darn darn well this guy pulling down this huge paycheck famous on a super hit series he knows darn well what happened he hasn't brainwashed his own self that's crazy talk but but if i could just interject real quickly to to put on to put another spin on this. He was actually receiving hate mail. So I think it's some emotional level. The guy feels that he was, you know, somehow singled out. And he did get hate mail.

At least that's what he alleges. Oh, you mean those letters he wrote himself? I remember my first death threat. It came by fax from the Fulton County Jail. Gee, I wonder who sent that. Yeah, everybody on this panel has probably gotten hate mail. Let's see.

Alexis Tereshuk, definitely. Dr. Angie, maybe. Wendy Patrick, definitely. Joe Scott, you ever get any hate mail or anything like that? No, the dead generally don't send me anything like that.

No, no, no, no. I mean like online. That counts. Yeah, I have. Yeah, a lot of blowback, particularly on social media. I remember just recently, and I really don't know how anything like that. No, no, no, no. I mean like online. That counts. Yes, yeah, I have. Yeah, a lot of blowback, particularly in social media. I remember just recently, and I really don't know how to take this. Somebody wrote, you are ugly. Why are you

on TV? Well, I had to take that with a box of salt. That mail was meant for me. That mail was meant for you. I mean, it gets really mean. But, so what? Plus, Alexis Teresha, let's circle back on what Levin says. Did he really get hate mail or were those the threats

he wrote himself? And how does that get a pay raise? How's he going to get a pay raise out of this stunt? That's what it said. There was no proof of who actually sent the letter that had, you know,

a drawing of a stick figure and a noose. There was, and he was just, he said he thought that they weren't investigating it, but there's no proof that he didn't send it. Okay, guys, it's happening right now,

but I still, and I'm going to blame you, Joe Scott Morgan. We still haven't laid out what allegedly happened that night of the hate crime. Take a listen to our cut D, our friends at NBC Chicago.

Smallest attorneys maintained the attack on him was as real as the hate letter the studio received before the incident. During cross-examination, they questioned police evidence, as did one activist who says she came to know Smollett. Fabricating cases. This is what the Chicago Police Department does. The defense is also attacking the credibility of the Olsen-Dyer brothers. They are expected to testify in this case later this week. What is unclear is whether or not Justice Millett will take the stand in his own defense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I want you to hear, just go with me on this.

This is our friend Robin Roberts, a great, great lady at ABC. It's our Cut 8. And this is Robin, who I think a great deal of interviewing Jesse Smollett following the attack. Okay. Our Cut 8. Take a listen. They ran off and I saw where they ran and the phone was in my pocket, but it had fallen out and it was sitting there and my manager was still on the phone. So I picked up the phone and I said, Brandon, and he's like, what's going on? And I said, I was just jumped. And then I looked down and I see that there's a rope around my neck, which I hadn't. You hadn't noticed it before? No, because it was so fast.

You know what I'm saying? It was so fast. How long did this all take? It felt like minutes, but it probably was like 30 seconds, honestly. I can't tell you, honestly. I noticed the rope around my neck and I started screaming. you, honestly. I noticed the rope around my neck, and I started screaming. And I said, there's a rope around my neck. Did you get any kind of description of the attack?

I gave a body description, you know, because I saw this, and, you know, right here or whatever. But I didn't see, I can't tell you what color their eyes were. I can't tell you. And I did not see anything except the second person I saw running away. And the first person, yeah, I saw, saw his stature. I gave the description as best as I could. You have to understand also that it's Chicago in winter. People can wear ski masks and nobody's going to question that. That's really interesting because when was his personal trainer?

I also want you to hear our cut 11. This is Robin again, Robin Roberts, actually speaking to Jesse Smollett. And listen, don't you know the state? If Smollett doesn't take the stand, they can introduce you. They can introduce this into evidence because the constitution protects you from improper questioning by the state, by police, by investigators. It doesn't protect you from blabbing to Robin Roberts. That was his decision. Take a listen to Cuddy Levin. Subway is open 24 hours for a reason. So that when you hungry at night and you ain't got no food you go to subway

the camera and be facing north how is that my issue it feels like if i had said it was a muslim or a mexican or someone black i feel like the doubters would have supported me a lot much more a lot more and that says a lot about the place that we are in our country right now the fact that we have these fear Mongols these people that are trying to separate us and it's just not okay it's just not. And for all of the people, the next time that you see someone report something, maybe well after the fact that it happened. And you say to them, well, why are you waiting till now? Just remember that mine was reported right away. And look what has happened. happened and in our cut 21 our friend Rob egglaw said Chicago ABC 7 the lawyer for the two asendaro brothers actually challenged Jesse Smollett to tell the truth listen to this I think Jesse Smollett should come clear because the truth will set him free bold words from the attorney of Abel and Ola osendaro brothers who spent hours talking to prosecutors in a grand jury.

They are the same men police say are in this surveillance photo, and it's evidence Jussie Smollett told Robin Roberts shows his attackers. I don't have any doubt in my mind that that's them. The Empire actor who told police two masked men beat him, yelling racial and homophobic slurs in Chicago's Streeterville neighborhood, is now charged with his own alleged crime. The Cook County State's Attorney's Office saying Smollett faces one felony count of disorderly conduct, stemming from filing a false police report.

Smollett is expected in bond court at 1.30. I think that Jesse's conscience is probably not letting him sleep right now, so I think he should unload that conscience and just come out and tell the American people would actually have one. Smollett's lawyers fired back, releasing a statement saying, quote, like any other citizen, Mr. Smollett enjoys the presumption of innocence. Given the circumstances, we intend to conduct a thorough investigation and to mount an aggressive defense. Back to Alexis Terescheck joining us. Alexis, I want you to hear what Joe Scott Morgan has to say regarding the actual evidence in this case. He's a forensics expert. What is going to

be proven? We know so far jurors have been shown footage of the two brothers involved in the alleged hate crime against Smollett with the Empire actor two days before they're caught on video buying the supplies used in the attack. And now we're hearing that Smollett himself performed a dry run of the attack before it occurred. But first to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, joining us, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University and author. Joseph Scott, what do you consider to be the most critical forensic evidence in this case? Well, I think it's what he refused to do, Nancy. You know, the police actually talked about his refusal to submit to a DNA test relative to this noose that he found allegedly around his neck.

And so what they wanted to do was, you know, do the cheek swab, the buccal mucosal swab relative to the DNA sample. Now, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. A cheek swab is so easy. It's like taking a really long Q-tip and rub it on the inside of your cheek and you get DNA. That's what that is. Okay, go ahead.

When you start throwing around buccal mucosa swab. Well, that's why I started off with cheek. But yeah, yeah, you're right. And it's very simple to do, Nancy. I mean, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to do it. And then what they were going to do is compare any kind of DNA recovered off of this rope, this noose that he allegedly had around his neck. You remember what he said? He said, when the police got there, the first thing I would do is get that rope from around my neck and secure it because it's just me.

It's fragile. You know, this is biological evidence and it's very, very fragile in this environment and what you want to do is these two brothers that when you know you've got the videotape of them going into the store to purchase all of these items to facilitate this guess what might be there their touch dna on the surface of this rope if they purchased it they handed it over to him so then you kind of get this this triangulation where you have both of them touching it, the brothers, that is, and then Smollett, his DNA would be there as well. So how do you connect those three things? Well, the numbers that you're talking about are astronomical relative to

probability. So that's what they're looking at. And I don't know how cooperative he was in order for them to facilitate this testing. Well, the reality is, straight back out to you, Wendy Patrick. Is this Wendy? It's Alexis. Yeah, jump in. And Wendy, I want to circle back with you. Once he turned into a defendant, they can just do a search warrant and get his DNA. But Alexis, go ahead, please. So at when Smollett called the police,

they came over to his house. He actually asked them to turn off their body cameras, which I suppose if you're a celebrity is something that you want to break. But if you are 100 percent telling the truth, you want people to see what happened. That sort of seemed to raise a lot of suspicions at the time. So I didn't know that. That's a critical fact. I need to write that down in my flow chart of evidence. Ask cops to turn off body cam. Can I get you just a quick point? Yes, go ahead. Yeah, because we were

touching on this before where I got to make half of my point and that was the worst one. But just bear with me. Mm-hmm. I think the strongest thing he had going

was A, his theatrics, and B, the appearance of earnestness and sincerity. And what I'm saying to you, having looked at the hoax cases we've seen over the years, which are, by the way, very small. We saw about 64 out of 21,000 over a three-year period. But here's what I think is so interesting we see with these folks. Just bear with me because I think it's important. I think these folks who do this have actually experienced some kind of emotional thing related to bias during their life, whatever it is. And now what they see is, well, you know, this is an opportunity. And what we see with these kind of folks, we see various things. We see most of these are done by college students, by the way, first of all.

So either it's a distraction from some wrongdoing, an aggrandizement, or some kind of benefit socially or otherwise. And what I'm saying to you, he certainly matches not the college student thing, because that's most of the ones you see, but they usually unravel right at the time that they're officially reported. And what I think that he didn't expect, I don't think he expected the Chicago police to be so thorough. And that's where I think his big misstep was.

And we see this a lot, this kind of Icarus syndrome, where these folks legitimately can channel these emotions of having experienced this stuff. So whether or not, you know, those initial letters were his or not, he probably had some hateful letters over his career. When you're famous, that kind of stuff happens. And that's what I think. When you get to the level where we're going over forensics and videos and you have these witnesses, everything else falls like dominoes.

And the only thing that he's got now is a double-edged sword. No competent lawyer would let him do it would be the emotion of saying no this really happened but then as you pointed out nancy then he gets crossed and he'll get crushed crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace You know what, Levin? Professor Brian Levin joining me from the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. I could listen to you talk all day long.

I've said that before actually about every... It's really interesting the way you talked about motivation which of course the state doesn't have to prove distraction aggrandizement what was the third one oh we sometimes we have insurance fraud for instance that's a good one but you said something else distraction aggrandizement and some other motivation what was it well making making one uh socially it's, having one's social status elevated. But also, I think in some perverse way, just bear with me, it's some kind of tipping of the scale back. In other words, I was hated sometime during my life and it hurt me.

Well, now I'm going to cash in on it in some way. And that's where that legit, when you're looking at him, you know, with those crocodile tears, some of that is coming certainly from the fact that he's an actor. But I think some of it comes from some kind of experience he had before. And it's kind of consistent with what we see. In other words, this transference of bigotry from something that may have happened earlier that wasn't as serious to something that's completely farcical and made up. Professor Levin, I certainly hope you're not saying that some prior act of bigotry or hatred or dislike against, let's just say at that time would be a victim, is somehow justification

for committing a crime like this. People in that area, in every every area in every big city are being raped murdered assaulted shot dope dealing you name it and they're going to call the cops out at 2 a.m in the morning for some bs like this but it's how he does it in other words that's how i think he channeled that ability to feel self-righteous and emotional and make it make it kind of stick for a lot of people who believed it because it came from a place where he had felt this prior. I might say that's I got you. No, I think it is news, so to speak. He's trying to find his motivation. Jump in, Joe Scott. Yeah. One of the things I'm thinking about here is that, you know, and I know because of his profile in the community, they're going to throw a ton of resources at this case. How many how many investigators did they put on this case?

And I'm going to give you three numbers really quick. In 2019, there were almost 500 homicides in Chicago, over 1,700 rapes, Nancy, in Chicago, and over 15,000 assaults. And so this guy rising to this level of prominence in this community, they're going to demand that all eyes be on this. So how many detectives, how much manpower is being taken away from those cases where you've got really people suffering, man? I mean, really suffering and focusing on use this term. I think Dr. Lemme did this farce, this farcical thing that's been put forward. It's a tragedy. Hey, you know what? What I keep thinking about, and I know everybody on this panel knows what I'm talking about. I'm thinking about real hate crimes. And I was very interested in the figure that Dr., excuse me, Professor Brian Levin threw out. Only 64 out of 21,000 hate crimes over a three-year period were faked.

Just 64 out of 21,000. What I'm thinking about are not statistics, although I find that pretty persuasive. I'm thinking about the scenes of actual hate crimes where somebody's dead and it's bloody and it smells really bad because blood and human decomposition is set in. And it's sticky.

And it's something you never forget. And when you've seen hate crime victims that lived, how they're forever traumatized. You can't go back to the way you were before, ever. You can go on in life, but you can't go back to the innocent you were before you were the victim of a hate crime. I'm thinking about them and this ridiculous story. Hey, Alexis, could you just walk us through and start with the threats that, I mean, story. Hey, Alexis, could you just walk us through and start with the

threats that, I mean, it's straight out. It's like a fifth grade girl wrote a mystery novel. It's like, what did he cut out the letters out of a magazine? Like you'd see on a murder she wrote. Is that how that worked? His original hate hate threats and there's like a stick figure with a noose and then lo and behold the perps that i guess knew he was gonna get the munchies at 2 a.m and go to subway or waiting out in sub-zero weather waiting for him to put a noose around his neck so it just yes amazingly matches the letter. And there was a letter that was sent to the studio that produced the television show, Fox Studios,

the producers of that. And he, so what he has said, or what has been reported is he didn't feel like it was getting enough attention. It was getting a lot of threats. Now, then the attack happened. But one of the things, I'm wondering if they're going to introduce this as evidence, because maybe one of the other experts talk about it. So he's saying that bleach was thrown on him. This is two o'clock in the morning in Chicago.

It was something like negative 34 degrees that night. And so people were saying that, you know, if you threw bleach, it would literally freeze instantly and freeze up. And it wouldn't be possible to have been thrown on him at that temperature outside in the middle of the night. Is that true, Joe Scott? Well, I can speak to the nature of water. It almost turns into a vapor. You can see it crystallizes in the air.

I'm assuming that bleach would probably have the same effect. And not only that, there is going to be evidence left behind on clothing, perhaps, where, I mean, we all know what happens when you expose clothing to bleach. It's the worst thing that can happen to your wardrobe. It changes colors and that sort of thing. And not to mention the caustic effects that it has on your skin and then inhalation. You're going to have red irritated areas so yeah there would be evidence of this nancy you know nancy can i jump in this is this is wendy i was i was all of what you're bringing up is going to be a great circumstantial case as to motive

motive to lie motive to make it up remember the polar vortex where during the time that this happened that was splashed all over the news can you imagine foraging for food in the middle of the night in those sub-zero temperatures, not to mention the difficulty that would cause in recognizing clothing, in believing somebody recognized Jussie, given the fact that he was probably, I think he totally bundled up. He did go to Subway. He went to Subway and got food. And I can say, you know, I remember being a single person. You might not have any food in your house in the middle of the night. He did go to Subway. He went to Subway and got food. And I can say, you know, I remember being a single person. You might not have any food in your house in the middle of the night.

He did go to Subway and get a sandwich. Okay, you know what? That's so he would be spotted on video surveillance. Hey, you know, I'm just going to project here, and I would totally argue this to the jury. About midnight last night, I had fallen asleep in the twins' room. I got up and then decided I was hungry. I thought, ooh, I'm going to have to walk to the kitchen and actually find something forget it i'm going to sleep so i don't even want to walk

to the kitchen much less get dressed at 2 a.m and go out into a polar vortex at negative 34 degrees at 2 a.m and then go try to explain the subway sandwich how I want my turkey. No, that's not happening. And plus, there's 24-hour delivery. Why would he do that? I mean, let's just talk about the food aspect of this thing. Back to you, Alexis Tereschuk. I got carried away on something Joe Scott said. So he gets these threats.

And tell me about the allegation about the hate crime. And we haven't even gotten to us at kim foxx that dropped the original charges um that's a whole nother can of worms why she did that and had to bring in an independent prosecutor investigator on this case but alexis so that night just to start very quickly give me a nutshell version he flies in out of town and he's late and which is important out of town very late goes home decides to go out and get a sandwich at subway gets the sandwich and then is attacked is attacked on the streets of chicago there is not video of his actual attack there's video from before and there's video from after, but it just, you know, not

everywhere in every city has surveillance cameras everywhere. This happened to be a spot where there wasn't a camera. It was, you know, a block away and a block after. So he is attacked. He goes home and he calls his publicist, which is what actors do. This is their crisis manager. This is their spokesperson. This is their voice. So he calls his manager as the rope is still around his neck. And by the way, Dr. Jackie here on the set, be worried, Joe Scott Morgan. She says bleach can easily freeze if you leave it outside during the cold months. There are different type of bleaches. Each one has a unique freezing point, but it absolutely does freeze. And I guess at negative 34, that would apply. Okay, back to you, Alexis.

Duly noted, Jackie. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Jackie. Go ahead. So then he calls the police. They show up. Now, there are conflicting. Well, this isn't a conflicting story. This is maybe something that's another part of the evidence. A video that showed him prior, he had with the rope hanging down. And then when the first image,

when the police come and then he asked them to turn off the camera, the rope is actually knotted. So there were some questions that he may have tied the rope himself. So that. It just gets better. Introduced. Yeah. I want to make a, I want to get waved into the jurisdiction help with the prosecution on this so then what happens then the police start the investigation everybody takes this very seriously there is no reason to suspect that he learned about this none whatsoever this is you know this is he seems distraught there is evidence there's a noose there there is all the

evidence is there there's no reason to suspect it's made up. So the police go full out investigating this. Nobody wants this to happen to anybody. You know, I hate crime or really nobody wants any crime to happen. And so they pour over surveillance video of the blocks where he was. And then days later, they actually make an arrest. In the meantime, he has gone on. He has spoken out in public. Everybody has been very supportive. Lee Daniels, the creator of his television show, says he stands behind him 100 percent. This is terrible. Even the vice. Well, I don't think

she's vice president at the time, but even I think Kamala Harris said, you know, this is a modern day lynching. People were very much behind him and supported him and believed him. Well, I'm sorry, Alexis. I got stumped on why anybody would go out at 2 a.m. in a Polar Vortex to get a subway. I mean, that stopped me in my tracks right then. And if you choose to believe that the haters had focused on him, had targeted him, they would have to know that his plane came in late.

They would have to know that he was going to get hungry at 2 a.m. and go to subway and be in the perfect position for them to throw bleach on him. It just, they'd have to wait outside for the perfect moment for Smollett to come outside. What, overnight? None of it makes sense. His story does not hang together. So, on day one, when I heard the whole subway thing, Nancy. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah. Remember Morton Downey Jr., that famous TV pundit that had his own show when his career was kind of stalling? He had a backward swastika that was allegedly done by skinheads at San Francisco Airport. But then folks said, wait, maybe that's what someone would do with a mirror. What I'm saying is I do think there's an interesting motive everything that you are saying is true and what i'm saying is i think the most interesting motive would come from the prosecutor to say you know what it's because this guy wanted something that celebrities crave because it can translate that that into new jobs and other types of currency. And that is attention,

particularly sympathetic attention. And I think that, you know, it's the only thing that adds up. Every time you bring up a fact, it is damning. It is damning to the defense. So it's one of those times where, you know, darn, where the arrows are pointed in one way. Look, let's give them a fair trial. Let's see what the evidence is. But gosh, just listening to you and listening to all these other experts with respect to the forensics, with respect to how this took place, with respect to the evidence and his statements that were tenuous at best. Boy, he's got to come up with something good because the way this is going now, it does not look good.

If he takes a stand, Professor Levin, it's going to be an Oscar. It better be an Oscar performance. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.