Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - "Empire" Star Jussie Smollett Convicted For FAKING FELONY HATE CRIME: Conviction Overturned

Episode Date: November 30, 2024

Former "Empire" actor Jussie Smollett is convicted of staging a hate crime attack against himself on a cold Chicago night.  Smollett was convicted on five disorderly conduct count and sentenced to 150 days. In reality, he spent only six days behind bars while maintaining his innocence.  Now the Illinois Supreme Court has overturned Smollett's conviction. The court did not consider where the actor committed the crime, only that his constitutional rights were violated when he was prosecuted again after  the original charges were dropped.   The state's highest court sided has ordered the case against Smollett be dismissed. Joining Nancy Grace today: Forensics expert Karen Smith, Los Angeles psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall and Atlanta criminal lawyer Darryl Cohen.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jesse Smollett, the race attack hoaxer. Well, we thought his case was over, right? The former Empire star was convicted for orchestrating a race attack hoax, stirring up much, much anger and dissension and hurt feelings. Well, guess what? In the last hours, I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for this one. The Illinois Supreme Court in its wisdom has reversed Jussie Smollett's conviction. That's right. His 2021 conviction has been overturned. Why? The Illinois Supreme Court says his second prosecution, after charges were initially dropped, was the reason for the reversal.

The court said, Today, we resolve a question about the state's responsibility to honor agreements it makes with defendants. Specifically, we address whether a dismissal of a case by a null pros, that's Latin for refusing to prosecute, allows the state to bring a second prosecution when the first dismissal was part of an agreement with the defendant and the defendant performs his part of the plea bargain. In other words, the state, oh, this was such a bad decision by the state. The state offered Smollett a deal and their part of the deal was they would null process or drop his case. Well, after that deal was struck, Smollett got new charges and was convicted of falsely reporting a hate crime against him. Smollett claimed he was hated because he is black and gay. Okay, it turns out he arranged the whole attack to try to get PR and a pay raise.

He was already bringing down tens of thousands of dollars per episode on Empire. Greedy, greedy, liar. He was found guilty of five of six disorderly conduct charges. The grand jury had returned a six count indictment against him. Before that he was sentenced to 150 days in jail, 30 months of probation, ordered to pay about $130,000 in restitution. All in, he served six days of the sentence. Oh, please. Now it's reversed. Okay. What happened? You know, it's two o'clock in the morning. You're going to Subway. Subway is open 24 hours. Like people kill me when they say things like that, because it's like Subway is open 24 hours for a reason. So that when you hungry at night and you ain't got no food,

you go to subway. The camera facing north, how is that my issue? It feels like if I had said it was a Muslim or a Mexican or someone black, I feel like the doubters would have supported me a lot much more, a lot more. And that says a lot about the place that we are in our country right now. The fact that we have these fear mongrels, these people that are trying to separate us. And it's just not OK.

It's just not okay. It's just not okay. And for all of the people, the next time that you see someone report something, maybe well after the fact that it happened, and you say to them, well, why are you waiting until now? Just remember that mine was reported right away. And look what has happened. You are hearing TV star Jesse Smollett talking to superstar Robin Roberts on GMA at ABC, talking about people who have doubted his story that he was attacked by, I believe it started as two white males. It changed at some point. Wearing red MAGA hats, I believe is how the story started. That also has changed. At 2 a.m. in the morning, coming out of a Subway sandwich shop.

According to Jussie Smollett, everyone knows him, big star on Empire. He was attacked. The perps threw acid on him, put a rope around his neck. It's my understanding he called his manager and not 911. When he walked back home, he then called 911. When police arrived, they found him sitting there and roughed up and the rope still around his neck. What is the truth? If this is the truth, who attacked him?

If it's not the truth, will the Empire Star go to jail for pulling a hoax? When he talks about his detractors dividing people, is he the one that's dividing people? And again, this is not about politics. I think all politicians lie, every single one of them. This is about a potential hoax on police or a horrible hate crime. With me, an all-star panel of forensics expert, and boy, do we need her now, Karen Smith out of the Florida jurisdiction, renowned criminal attorney Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor joining me from Atlanta, joining me from LA,

psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, and joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com's Ellen Kaloran. EK, let's just start at the beginning. Now, typically, when I'm hungry at 2 o'clock, I get something, anything, usually the wrong thing, out of the fridge, eat it, and go back to sleep. All right? Usually, I don't feel like getting up and even going to the fridge because I'm exhausted. But let's just start with a 2 a.m. Subway sandwich call. Go.

Well, it does appear that Jossie Smollett had arrived to the airport in Chicago late. So I don't think this was a matter of him waking up in the middle of the night and going out to the freezing cold to the subway. It was a very cold day, though. And he tells police that he's on his way home with his subway sandwich. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is in Chicago, correct? That's right. Dr. Bethany, he must have been very hungry, very hungry indeed. His tummy must have been growling at 2 in the morning because, you know,

Chicago has that windchill factor. So if it's 20 degrees out, regular temperature, the wind starts blowing. It's 40, 50 degree below windchill. I did my undergraduate work there. Nobody goes out at 2 in the morning. Daryl Cohen, renowned Atlanta criminal defense attorney, is gnashing his teeth and twitching his tail right now because he thinks the temp has nothing to do with any of this but that's where I always like to start Daryl not with just the temperature but the beginning the beginning is he wakes up according to his story at 2 a.m and instead of getting leftover pizza out of the fridge or

a whole chocolate cake or whatever the matter may be he goes out in 40 below to get a subway sandwich see i start right there that's where i start the story and i think that's crazy i'm not saying it didn't happen i just think that's cray cray well i'm wondering if subway was actually open at two in the morning yep they're 24 hour yeah iway, although I did have a mini boycott for a week after Jared was, you know, busted on child porn, I guess it was, their spokesperson. But long story short,

Daryl Cohen, I mean, a defense attorney would argue that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't think it has anything to do with it. I think what has to do with it is did it or did it has anything to do with it. I think what has to do with it is did it or did it not happen? And as far as I can see from all of the evidence that's been presented to me, this guy is looking for more publicity for whatever the reason, and he is about to get it. Well, he's getting it all right. Okay, E.K., let's just go with the

premise that it's true because the official statement from Chicago PD is he is being treated as a victim because he is a victim. The phone. When did you, because as you said, it was an accurate account of the timeline, valuable information. When did you make that information available to the police? We gave, we had to give the phone records, which they didn't originally ask for my phone records. They asked for my phone. They wanted me to give my phone to the tech

for three to four hours. I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna do that. Why? Because I have private pictures and videos and numbers, my partner's number, my family's number, my castmate's number, my friend's numbers, my private emails, my private voice memos. I don't know what that's going to be to hand over my phone for. And honestly, by then, inaccurate false statements had already been put out there. You are hearing our friend, superstar Robin Roberts at ABC's GMA. She's awesome.

And she is talking to Jussie Smollett, the Empire star. Everybody loves Empire. The Empire star, who claims that at 2 a.m. in the morning in Chicago, he decided he was hungry, goes out to Subway Sandwich, gets a sandwich, and is attacked by two guys that threw acid on him or bleach, wrap a rope around his neck, attack him for being black and homosexual. He manages to get home and call police. He says he calls his manager from the scene. Now, I think that is why they wanted the phone to confirm that he called his manager and not 911. They aren't being clear why they want the phone, but they want the phone. Karen Smith joining me, forensics expert out of Florida. Why do they want, why do they want Jesse Smollett's phone? Listen, when you're dealing with an alleged victim or

alleged perpetrators, the best way now in the world of social media and texting is to get the phone of the victim. You can look at text messages and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and all those things and text messages especially. Listen, if nothing happened, and I understand, you know, the privacy thing and there's phone numbers and emails and whatever that he doesn't want released, but the police are not going to go into that. That's not their interest. Their interest is looking at communications between Jussie Smollett and these other alleged perpetrators,

if there was any, if there was any, the phone call that he made to his manager, what time did he make it, where did he make it from, all of those questions have to be answered and they have to have the device. They can't just take somebody's word for it. That's not how life works anymore. Not anymore. Daryl Cohen, Atlanta criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, felony prosecutor in the jurisdiction where I also prosecuted.

I just missed him. Daryl, at the time when I first started prosecuting, we did not have DNA. We did not have cell phone pinging. We did it old school. Okay. And we did it. Now with the advent of cell phone, triangulation, GPS tracking, when he is saying that he won't hand his phone over, that is a problem to me. I don't have a problem with anything else he's saying, but when he says, fine, you know what? I don't have to explain why he's hungry at

2 a.m. or goes out in sub-zero or below freezing. That's a personal decision. But when you don't have to explain why he's hungry at 2 a.m. or goes out in sub-zero that or below freezing that's a personal decision but when you don't hand your phone over to cops that is a big red flag to hang with your private communications if you have had bleach poured on you beaten up have a rope tied around your neck out on the street, you're handing your phone over because you want those people caught, right? I mean, have I lost my mind on that one thing, Daryl? Well, Nancy, I'm having a very big problem with finding out why he would call his manager who the last time I checked was not a law enforcement person, was not a bodyguard. Why would you not call the police?

Any of us, any of us, whether we're an actor, whether we're a lawyer, whether we're an Indian chief, whatever we may be, we are going to call the police if something bad happens. So, yeah, I've got a real problem with him not turning over his phone. This guy is Jesse, but he thinks he's Jesse James. He is having, I think right now he's having a real problem. You probably stayed up all night long coming up with that. He's not Jesse, he's Jesse James.

Okay, you know what, I'm going to just pass over that one. You know, it's a big deal to me, Daryl, and I know you're a famous defense attorney now, but in my mind you'll always be an incredible felony prosecutor because you could get a jury eating out of your hand. You are always prepared. You knew the law. You knew the facts. You knew it all when you went in front of a jury. And in this case, when you have a victim that does not cooperate with police, that is a problem. I don't care who he is. I don't care who he sleeps with. I could not care less. I don't care. But if you don't cooperate with police, then that is a problem

with me. What's your problem? There's a problem with me as well. I've got another problem with that. How in the world in the middle of the night, 2 a.m., 9 degrees, minus 9 degrees, it's about the same, frozen, do you get mugged by two people who know you're obviously black, but you're homosexual? Really? Well, because he's a famous TV star. So here's the thing. This is another wrinkle in this. To Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com. Hold on.

I'm going to write this down. Here's the thing. So if they were targeting Jussie Smollett, okay, hold on. If they were targeting him and this was a hate crime. How did they know to be outside the subway at 2 a.m. with bleach and rope? Or were they just hanging around to get a sandwich and they happened to have bleach and rope with them? If they were targeting Jesse Smollett, E.K., were they casing out his apartment? Why were they there at 2 a.m.? And I haven't even touched on these two guys,

these two Nigerian guys that work out in his apartment building gym that know him, that have been extras on the set of Empire, or at least one of them has, that have been questioned and released and allegedly are now saying they were paid to do the attack. But first of all, I want to get to the theory. So the perps were what, waiting outside the Subway sandwich shop for him? I mean, what's the theory here? How did they know he was going to be getting a sandwich at 2 a.m. if he was the one targeted for a hate crime? Well, Nancy, they may have not known that

he was going to get a sandwich at 2 a.m., but Jesse has an Instagram account and he's a very active social media user. And we learned that he had been in New York during the previous days and he was on, he had flown back to Chicago that night, but his flight was delayed and he came in much later than expected. And he posted a couple of Instagram stories on his, on his Instagram account talking about how his flight was delayed. So someone who had to have had a little bit of information about what was going on with him that day, if they wanted to track his movements, they could to a certain degree through his social media activity. Okay, let me ask you this. Regarding Jesse Smollett, now that may make it make more sense that he was out at 2 a.m. Was his flight so delayed he was just getting home from the airport at, say, 1 o'clock and hadn't eaten?

Do we know the timing of that? Because that makes, although the Chicago airport is full of food, but I don't know if it would be open, the food stands would be open that late at night. So if he gets off a plane from New York and he gets in midnight, gets to his apartment at 1, he may very well be hungry. And there is a theory out there that that is how he communicated to set up the attack through posting, you know, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, that these two brothers could actually see his movements by looking at his Facebook or Instagram. So, E.K., do we know what time he got in from his flight? We don't know exactly what time he landed or got back to his apartment,

but we don't have a lot of very clear information at all, Nancy. But it does seem as though it's likely that he did stop off at his apartment first. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace and this is Crime Stories. Race attack faker, Jussie Smollett, wasn't happy at the tens of thousands of dollars he was raking in per episode as a big star on the series Empire. Oh no, he wanted more. And to get more, he tried to create a PR hurricane by arranging a race attack on himself, making it appear as though he had been singled out and attacked because he was black and gay. He staged the whole thing. In the last days, the Illinois Supreme Court, in its wisdom, has reversed the conviction.

I will never forget these facts. I think that what people need to hear is just the truth. It's just the truth because everybody has their own idea. Some are healing and some are hurtful. But I just want young people, young members of the LGBTQ community, young black children to know how strong that they are, to know the power that they hold in their little pinky. It's been two weeks since that night left actor Jussie Smollett bruised but not broken. And he's still processing the raw emotions.

Have you ever been threatened before? Yeah. I get threatened all the time on Twitter and Instagram and DMs and things like that. It's like, but, you know, I'm a public figure. I'm very outspoken. Sometimes maybe too outspoken, but it's who I am. You know, so I get the idea of pissing people off, that you're going to rub people the wrong way. In fact, the week before the attack, police confirm a letter was sent to the Fox studio in Chicago with threatening language and laced with powdery substance,

likely Tylenol. Do you think there's a link between the letter and the attack? And you did mention it to the police right away about the letter. Absolutely. Just because on the letter, it had a stick figure hanging from a tree with a gun pointing towards it

with the words that said, "'Smallette Jussie, you will black there was no address but the return address said in big red you know like caps MAGA did I make that up too you are hearing our friend Robin Roberts at ABC's GMA speaking with Empire star Jussie Smollett and right now we know that the police investigation is going on police chief has confirmed the two guys that allegedly are identified in the video that police believe committed the act, the attack on Jesse Smollett, have been apprehended, questioned and released with no charges. What about these letters, Ellen Kaloran? What are the letters that he claims he got leading up to this attack? Threatening letters. Yes, one exactly one week before the night of the alleged assault, a letter was sent to the studio where he filmed the show Empire in Chicago, and it contained direct death threats,

homophobic, and racist language. There's two things about the letter that are coming up more recently in the discussion around this case. One of those is that some unidentified sources who have access to the set and may even work with with jesse have told cbs news that he was unhappy about the response to the letter and the threat that he got that he felt that there wasn't it wasn't taken seriously enough and that he was angry and that they're questioning did he set up this that orchestrate this purported hate crime as retaliation for that. The other thing that we're learning, and again, these are not official law enforcement statements. These are unidentified sources who are talking to news outlets. But we're learning that the letter was made out of,

and you can see it in the photos, the letter was written sort of like a ransom type of letter with cutout letters from a magazine. And we're hearing that when investigators went and raided the apartment of these two brothers who have been identified as possibly involved in this attack, they took away a magazine. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Dr. Bethany Marshall, are these threat letters like the kinds you see on Agatha Christie and Hercule Poirot, like in the movies where you cut out letters from the newspaper and you stick them on a piece of paper instead of divulging your handwriting. that in a follow-up visit by investigators, Smollett says the attackers mentioned something about this is MAGA country, which relates back to the Trump campaign. Right. So the whole situation is fluid.

But I can tell you this. Remember the runaway bride when she lied about getting kidnapped? Yes. She got to cut grass and do community service out in the public for I forgot how long. Other people have done jail time, hard jail time for bringing police in on a hoax of an investigation. Because who knows what crimes were really happening at the time of a hoax.

And instead of dealing with the real crime, cops are out spending thousands and thousands of dollars and man hours trying to solve a fake call. And this one is a whopper. Now, what do you make, Dr. Bethany Marshall? The studio, the Empire studio, had assigned him bodyguards, we've been told. But according to sources, he was unhappy with the reaction to the letters. Does that mean what they didn't get enough attention? What does that mean to you, Dr. Bethany? In forensic interviews, one of the things we're trained to do with crime victims is to find out if they're doing something called malingering. Malingering is when you make up medical symptoms or you exaggerate medical symptoms for some external

reward. It's that simple. Now, in 20% of criminal cases, malingering is involved in some way. 20% of PI cases, as you can imagine, malingering, 30% of disability cases. The sicker I am, the more I'm going to get some kind of reward or attention, or I'm going to get out of some, some consequence. Like you're not going to send me to jail. I'm not going to have to go to the military. So what's so interesting to me about this story is the, the exaggerate two aspects, the exaggerated nature of his symptoms. He's sitting on the sidewalk, bleach on his clothing, the rope around

his neck. Wouldn't you pull a rope off? No, he's sitting there, you know, with the clear sign that he's been accosted. He talks about being black, gay, LGBTQ, anything that could paint him in a sympathetic light, he keeps putting out there. The second aspect is the fuzzy nature of the timeline. When somebody malingers, they usually obstruct the investigation process. They do not want the investigators to know clearly what happened. So if I have a patient in my practice who's malingering, you know, Dr. Marshall, I was, I don't know, my boss keeps yelling at me. I want to bring a lawsuit. You know, I say, well, what did your boss say? Well, I don't know. I just can't remember. So malingering is associated with very fuzzy details. Is it true, E.K. Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter,

that Smollett had been in New York to audition for a role in the play that is very oddly similar to his alleged attack. What do we know about the play for which he was auditioning? He was at a reading, actually. It wasn't an audition. I believe he's already part of the cast. But that's what he was doing in New York. He was flying back to Chicago from New York. And he was in New York because he was doing a reading of the

script of this play. And the character in the play is a person of color. It's a gay, it's a celebrity, a sports star in the case of the fictional character. But he is someone who, the character is someone who has been the victim of hate crimes that, according to the reports that we're reading, that have some similarities in the crime that was allegedly committed against him, just within hours of him arriving back to Chicago after the same wording, the same slurs, awful slurs. I'm learning also, Daryl Cohen, Atlanta criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor in felony court, that he, Smollett, did not call police. It was a close associate about 40 minutes after the attack, according to The New York Times. And I think that was his manager.

He did not call police. And when cops got to his place, he still was wearing the rope around his neck. Help me. Well, I can't help you, Nancy, because it sounds to me like a setup. Did you also pay attention to his voice? This is a guy that's reading a script. This is not someone who's upset. This is not someone who's been attacked.

If you're attacked, you're not going to be calm and gentle. Add that to the cocktail. Add the fact that he's not giving his phone to the police to the cocktail. Add the fact that all he can do is say, oh my gosh, I was attacked and this is terrible, but he has a noose around his neck 40 minutes later. Really? This is a guy who was, look, many times, Nancy, people equate stars on television or on the big screen with intelligence. Sorry, not the same. Some are, some are not. This guy is reading a script. He saw a way to get even, perhaps. He saw a way to make more money, perhaps. But what he didn't see is that he's

not as bright as he believes himself to be. So he's not Shakespeare. Take a listen to CBS Chicago reporter Charlie DeMar. Brothers Ola and Abel Osindaro captured on Streeterville surveillance cameras, told detectives their role in the reported January 29th attack on actor Jussie Smollett, according to multiple sources. Those sources say Smollett paid the brothers thousands THE FAMILY'S FRIEND, THEIR SON, AND THEIR GRANDFATHER WERE ARRESTED. THE FAMILY REPORTED JANUARY 29TH ATTACK ON ACTOR JUSSIE SMOLLETT ACCORDING TO MULTIPLE SOURCES. THOSE SOURCES SAY SMOLLETT PAID

THE BROTHERS THOUSANDS TO CARRY OUT A STAGED ATTACK. IN ATTACK, SMOLLETT REPORTED TO POLICE SAYING TWO MEN SLINGING RACIAL AND HOMOPHOBIC SLURS, DOWSING HIM IN BLEACH AND PLACING A ROPE AROUND HIS NECK. THE OSINDARS WERE ARRESTED AND LATER RELEASED BY CHICAGO POLICE. SIMULTANEOUSLY, THE FBI IS LOOKING INTO A THREATENING LETTER SMOLLETT RECEIVED JUST DAYS BEFORE THE REPORTED ATTACK. THE WORDS PIECED TOGETHER BY MAGAZINES.

AND A DRAWING DEPICTING A ROPE AROUND A STICK FIGURE'S NECK. DAYS LATER, SMOLLETT SAID THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM DURING THE REPORTED ATTACK. DURING A RAID OF THE BROTHERS' HOME LAST WEEK, ONLY OF A BUSINESS THAT HAD BEEN IN THE BUSINESS DURING THE REPORTED ATTACK. DURING A RAID OF THE BROTHERS' HOME LAST WEEK, ONLY CBS 2'S CAMERAS WERE ALLOWED INSIDE.

AMONG THE ITEMS INVESTIGATORS WALKED AWAY WITH, A MAGAZINE, A PIECE OF PAPER ALONG WITH A WRITING SAMPLE AND A WALLET WITH STAMPS. MULTIPLE SOURCES SAY SMOLLETT WAS UPSET THE

THREATENING LETTER DIDN'T RECEIVE A BIGGER REACTION. THAT'S WHEN HE ORCHESTRATED THE ATTACK WITH THE BROTHERS. THE ROPE USED, BOUGHT BY AT LEASTORDER OF THE BROTHERS PURCHASED BY THE BROTHERS PURCHASED AT THE DIRECTION OF SMOLLETT. SOURCES SAY THE BROTHERS ARE FRIENDS WITH SMOLLETT, OLA PLAYING AN EXTRA ON EMPIRE.

LAST WEEK IN A TELEVISED INTERVIEW, SMOLLETT HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT THE SCUFFLE WITH HIS ATTACKERS. HE SAID THIS MAGA COUNTRY PUNCHES ME RIGHT IN THE FACE. SO I PUNCHED HIS ASS BACK.

I NOTICED THE ROPE AROUND MY NECK AND I STARTED SCREAMING. THE BROTHERS WHO WERE PUNCHING HIM IN THE FACE, PUT THEM IN THE BORDER. THE BROTHERS WERE TAKING PUNCHES. THE BROTHERS WERE TAKING PUNCHES. THE BROTHERS WERE TAKING PUNCHES. This MAGA country punches me right in the face. So I punched his ass back. I noticed the rope around my neck and I started screaming.

The brothers who were first seen in grainy surveillance video now coming into focus, speaking exclusively with me over the phone, saying, we are not racist, we're not homophobic, and we are not anti-Trump. We were born and raised in Chicago and are American citizens. You are hearing our friend at CBS Chicago, reporter Charlie DeMar, reporting about what Chicago police took when they raided the brothers' home. Claiming that Smollett was upset that his threatening letters did not get the attention he had assumed that they would.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Believe it or not, Jussie Smollett, the race attack faker, has gotten his conviction reversed. What happened that night? People that make false claims to police, much less to this extent, usually land behind bars. If they're regular mortals like all of us, if you're Hollywood star, maybe you get different treatment. Jesse Smollett, superstar on the cast of Empire, to Ellen Kalor on CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter, where we have all breaking crime and justice news. Ellen, what can you tell me about these two guys? Everyone refers to them as Nigerian. They're American.

That's right, Nancy. They were born and raised in Chicago. The reason I believe that people are calling them Nigerians is because they, for reasons that have not been explained, and I do not understand, apparently flew to Nigeria the day after the attack and came back to Chicago last week where they were met with investigators at the airport. That has not been explained why that happened or if it has anything to do at all with the alleged assault. And I also wanted to point something else out since we're talking

about the rope and the phone. A lot of the things that have come up in recent days really don't look good. Like they look very suspicious and things are starting to really maybe fall apart here in this story. But a couple of things I think are not suspicious that happened here. I don't think it's suspicious that he did not want to hand over his entire phone immediately. He's a public

figure. He's a celebrity who has received threats before. Ellen, have you ever been attacked at 2 a.m., had a rope tied around your neck and bleach poured on you? Because if you have, I'd like to interview you about that. Okay, because if that happens to you and your life is in danger and cops say, we need your phone, you go, here, whatever. I mean, when a cop pulls me over, which has happened, I like to say, whatever. Here, take it all. Okay, just please leave my children behind. Whatever. I don't want a problem with a cop. Okay? Nobody should be above the law.

And if they want your phone, give your phone. But you know what? That's you, and this is me. So go ahead with your analysis. Okay. But what I wanted to also say is that I believe he did agree to hand over the phone records about the rope. What we heard in the beginning of this narrative was that he kept the rope around his neck because he didn't want to sort of disturb the scene and he wanted the responding officers to see what had been done. That was the explanation for the rope being left. You know what? I hear you.

And he could have claimed that he did not want his DNA, his, I don't think you get prints off rope, but any of his fibers or DNA on the rope or to ruin any evidence on the rope. So I can understand that. Now, it's my understanding that he did hand over phone records, but that they were heavily redacted. Now, according to TMZ, our friend Harvey Levin, the phone records were handed over and the cops rejected them. the cops rejected them. The cops rejected them.

Daryl Cohen, are you sitting down? The cops rejected them, saying that they were so heavily redacted that they were basically of no use. What about handing over your phone records to cops, and you redact them? Oh, come on, Nancy. This is absurd. If you are a victim of a crime, first of all, I want to go back to the noose. If I've got a noose around my neck, oh, my God, I'm going to rip that off as quickly as I possibly can because I am freaked out. This guy was not hurt.

This guy was not attacked. He is looking for publicity. He may have won an Emmy for Empire, but the news outlets in Chicago are going to win a news Emmy for their coverage of this guy who doesn't recognize the truth from a lie. He is scripted and he's gotten himself into a problem. He's a walking, living soap opera. That's all he is. The whole reason they got interested in the phone records to start with is that Smollett said to cops he was on the phone with his manager at the time of the attack and that the manager says he heard the racial and homophobic slurs being thrown and they want to authenticate that that call was in fact made. They asked Smollett for the records about two weeks before. They got a PDF file. Now, police also say there are cameras everywhere in

the area, but there is a 60-second gap in the video where you don't see the Empire Star. So there's no video of the actual attack.'ve looked at shots of the video and you see two persons of interest in surveillance footage now this is what is telling to me dr bethany marshall these two guys that everybody calls nigerians they're americans let's be very clear on that who take off to nigeria the day after the attack they work out in his building, at least one of them does, in the gym in Smollett's building, his apartment building. One of them has been an extra on the set. They're totally buff. They look like they're bodybuilders. I've seen their photos and I never see them wearing a shirt. I mean, not judging, but they are totally buff. So you can see they work out all the time.

They take off for Nigeria the day after the attack. They come back. They're met by the cops. They are questioned. They are released, Dr. Bethany. No charges. And after meeting with them, cops say they want to re-interview Jussie Smollett. What does that say to you, Dr. Bethany?

Well, first of all, the trip to Nigeria, they're now $3,500 richer because they just got paid for the attack, right? And some people do not think ahead when they collude with somebody who's drawing them into a crime. So they may have thought, no big deal. We'll rough them up. We'll put a rope around his neck. We'll take a vacation. We'll come back. This will have all blown over. But you know what? They talked to the police. And as I was saying about malingering, the whole story does not shake out. The timeline is not consistent. And so the police are going to look to Jesse. And I would wonder, what is Jesse's reward in all of this? When people malinger symptoms, you know, I was roughed up, I was a victim. They do it for a reward. Is he trying to up his Twitter following? Is he negotiating a contract right now? And he wants

to prove to the EP of the show that he is the center of a national news situation? Is he wanting to take somebody else's role in Empire? You know, I think that there's a reward there somewhere. And if you follow that trail, the whole thing begins to make sense. And researching and following and asking questions. I'd like to say this is the end of the But somehow, I predict it ain't over yet with Jussie Smollett. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.