Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EPSTEIN BROTHER FURIOUS: THIS IS NO "DIRT-NAP" NOTE

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Did Jeffrey Epstein leave a suicide note?  His brother, Mark, says no.  He doesn't believe the one page letter unsealed by a District Judge Kenneth Karas was written by Jeffrey.  Theres only  five sentences printed on a sheet of lined paper. It's been seven years since the accused sex trafficking suspect was found hanging in his cell.  A former cellmate says he found it in a book in their shared cell.  Nicholas Tartaglione has said he discovered the note during the approximate two week time period they shared a cell in July 2019. During that time, Epstein reportedly tried to hang himself. He initially claimed that Tartaglione had assaulted him.  Epstein later told staff that he had no memory of the incident. Epstein died by suicide less than a month later.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Mark Epstein  - Brother of Jeffrey Epstein Bart Baggett  - Forensic handwriting expert. He is the founder of the Handwriting Experts Inc. Host of “The Bart Show “ Podcast, website: http://www.bartbaggett.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Host of a new podcast: "On The Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall"  Author: "Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Lynn Shaw  -  Founder and Executive Director of Lynn's Warriors,  Host of Lynn's Warriors on YouTube, website: lynnswarrior.org,  X: @lynns_warriors, YouTube: @LynnsWarriors Joseph Scott Morgan  - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Instagram @JoScottForensic Dave Mac -  Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jeffrey Epstein's brother is furious, insisting. This is no dirt nap note, no sionara, no goodbye note, no death note. It didn't happen. He says the handwriting doesn't match. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. It was not a suicide. The initial death certificate said on the cause of death pending further study. They came out of the autopsy saying that they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide. Was Jeffrey Epstein murdered behind bars just before reams, tons, volumes of top secret information was set to be released? and what in that information points to, if it does, to wealthy, privileged, powerful individuals from all around the world. Joining us tonight's special guest, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, who insists this was no death note.

Straight out to special guests joining us tonight, Mark Epstein. This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He, along with many, are convinced Jeffrey Epstein. was murdered from behind bars. And it's not just his blood brother saying that. Multiple medical examiners and medical professionals, death investigators agree. Mark Epstein, thank you for being with us tonight. It's my pleasure.

Thank you for having me on. What was your response when you heard claims that handwriting, handwriting experts insist your brother wrote the recent note? I'm surprised to hear that because I was given a report where they compared that note to three other things that they know Jeffrey wrote, and they said it's not the same. But more important than that note, which I'll get back to, okay, is that, you know, I've been talking about the report that's being done about Jeffrey's murder. They were studying the autopsy like it should have been studied years ago. And the report will be out soon. It's currently being peer reviewed, but I've been read part of that. report. Again, the report is not being done on my behalf. I'm not paying for this. It's independent pathologist. And they inclusively decided that Jeffrey could not have taken himself out because due to

the injuries and bruises on his body, they could not have been self-inflicted. So they know for a fact that he was killed because he could not have done it himself. Now, if we go back to the note, This note sort of after the July incident where they thought they were saying there was an attempt by Jeffrey to take himself out. We know that's not the case. We know that his cellmate roughed him up. And after that incident in July, Jeffrey reported that his cellmate roughed him up. And that's documented. You can find that in the reports, in the files. Later, soon thereafter, he recanted. And then he said he couldn't remember what happened. You know, what happened, he changed his story because he didn't want to be retaliated against. It's one thing to be in prison as a pedophile. It's also not a good thing to be in prison as a snitch. So he said he didn't

remember what happened. That's why he was taken off of suicide watch so quickly. Now that we know, we know that it was not an attempt to take himself out. Therefore, there would be no reason for there to be a note of that kind. Wow. Mark Epstein, you just did a massive data dump on me. And that is a lot of information to take in. And when you explain it the way you just did, it makes perfect sense. Let me understand. There were claims that your brother, Jeffrey Epstein, tried to hurt himself back in July. You are saying that is not true that what really happened is a roommate attacked him, a cellmate, another inmate, attacked him. and he reported the attack.

But then, to avoid being called a snitch, he recanted and said, I don't remember. It will be a cold day in H.E.L. That Jeffrey Epstein doesn't remember a near-fatal attack? He remembered. So why did he say, I don't remember. You're right. Yeah, he was afraid of retaliation. So he just said he didn't remember.

And again, that's why he was taken off of the watch. If it was the true attempt to take him. out, to take him off of watch would be gross, you know, malpractice for any psychologists that would have recommended it. And Bill Barr, in his testimony under oath, said he was taken off of watch because the psychologist somebody said it would be better. That's nonsense. That's more of Bill Barr's bullshit cover-up story. You know, that's a really good point, Mark Epstein. Joining us tonight is Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, who insists and has insisted from day one that the injuries on his brother's body were not self-inflicted. He knows

Epstein better than anybody living knows Epstein. Now, interesting point that you just made an interesting legal point, Mark Epstein, and that is there was never a civil suit or any suit filed at all when your brother was taken off the death watch because the, the The psychologist knew and said it in their written reports. He would never have hurt himself, which adds corroboration and credibility to your account, which is supported by the facts. And that account is that another inmate attacked your brother, a near fatal attack, a serious beating. Your brother reported the attack.

But then when questioned by authorities, he backed off and said he didn't remember what happened, so he would not be branded a snitch. Wow. Okay. Let's pick it up right there. Continue with us tonight, Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother on the alleged dirt nap note. Go ahead, Mr. Epstein. When I first heard on CNN the morning they found him, that's how I found out, that he was found, you know, apparently dead from an apparent self-inflicted act. I believed it. I had no reason to doubt it. I figured, well, this is what he decided to do. and I respected his decision. He was potentially facing a very long time in jail. I knew he wouldn't want to live that way. He didn't have any kids to worry about. He was single.

Our parents were gone. He didn't have to worry about me. So I just had no reason to doubt it. But the next day when they did the autopsy and both highly qualified forensic pathologists came out of the autopsy and they said they couldn't call this, they couldn't say he did it himself because it looked too much like a homicide. That's when I said, wait a second. you know what's going on here and that's when things started getting interesting

and we started finding out about all the screw-ups in the prison and as more and more information comes out the suicide looks at me the theory that he took himself out is being knocked out of the box and with the release of the report in the next few weeks you'll see that he did not do this to himself which only leaves homicide because the other there's only four ways to die you know you could take yourself out you could die of natural causes which you're which we know didn't happen to Jeffrey. You could have an accidental death. We know he wasn't hit by a bus.

And the fourth is homicide. So the government, the DOJ, keeps it with all the information that comes out, they keep saying, yeah, but he took himself out. Yeah, but he took himself out. You know, the cameras weren't working. Yeah, but he took himself. This is, yeah, we get the year, but he took himself out. Well, this report will knock out the theory that he took himself out.

So the only thing left is homicide. And then the question becomes, who killed him and or who had him killed? They should be a homicide investigation because he was killed. Mark Gapstein, you have referred to an upcoming report. What will the report be? Who is creating the report and why? It's done by independent pathologists. I'm not divulging their names now because I don't want them harassed by the media.

I know how much I get harassed by the media. I want them to do their work. and they will release the report. You will find out who they are and what this is all about when they release the report. Again, it's not my report. They're not doing this on my behalf. They contacted me, you know, many months ago, and I just provided them with all the information that I had about the autopsy, the photographs of his body, the x-rays, the medical records.

And again, on the initial death certificate we got, they did the autopsy six and a half years ago, under cause of death, it said pending further study. Well, that study had never been done because by quickly calling, by quickly saying Jeffrey took himself out, there's no reason to investigate anything. So it shuts down any investigation. That's why they did it that way.

That's why it was quickly called, it was quickly determined that he took himself out erroneously. Because all the pathologists I've spoken to since have told me that when an initial death certificate says pending further study, under cause of death. You don't get an answer for weeks because something's being studied, something's being investigated. That was never done here. I'm going to ask you a question. What are you basing your idea that Jeffrey took himself out on?

As we've discussed several times before, Mark Epstein, I have always thought from day one that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered behind bars. And the single most convincing fact for me, has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with malfeasance or misconduct or bad guards, bad cameras, nothing. It has to do with the facts. It has to do with the markings on your brother's neck. I have handled, prosecuted, and investigated and covered more homicides than I can count. I can't even remember them all. When a person is, strangled by ligature, ligature strangulation, you will see a straight across marking on the neck, typically furrowed, where the ligature, be it a rope, a stocking, furrows into the skin.

When an individual takes their own life, you will see a smiley mark from ear down, down, toward the Adam's apple and to the other ear because of the positioning of the rope, if it is a rope. So the marking on your brother's neck, the first time I saw it from having handled so many homicides, I did not believe it could be anything other than homicide. Yes, well, you're correct about the mark on his neck, but there's other injuries to his body and other bruises that cannot have been self-inflicted. And this was either overlooked or ignored by Dr. Samson, who was the chief medical examiner,

who said that Jeffrey took himself out. And let me be really clear, she never saw Jeffrey's body. She wasn't in the office that day. The two pathologists that did the autopsy both came out saying this looks like a homicide. They wouldn't call it a suicide. And the report coming out goes much deeper into the marks and bruises on Jeffrey's body. You know, the other reason people are calling this, saying that he took himself out, you know, Barbara Samson made that statement within, you know, days after Jeffrey died. And Bill Barr, the attorney general, came out and publicly stated that he personally watched the videotape from the camera that was outside of the tear. And he saw that nobody went in or out of the tear, and that convinced him it was a suicide. Those are the two reasons people think this was a suicide. Barbara Samson's statement and Bill Barr's statement.

Now, if you look at Bill Barr's statement, first of all, with the recent release of the videotape, you could see that, number one, you cannot see the door to the tear that he was referring to, and it's been shown many times that people could get to that door and leave from that door without being caught by that camera. So just what the fuck was he talking about? We also have now seen in the middle of the night that orange person going up the stairs, you know, because you can only see the left side of the staircase.

So, obviously, somebody went up the stairs. So again, what the f was Bill Barr talking about when he said nobody went in or out? Somebody went up there. Also, Bill Barr completely ignored the possibility that somebody already on the tier in another cell could have gotten to Jeffrey, done something going back into his cell without having to go and come. from the tier. A few months after the death, I was told by a source that cell doors were left on lock that night. I don't know how many. I don't know whose, but supposedly this information came from a lawyer of one of the other inmates on the tier. So it makes perfect sense when you put it all together that somebody already on the tier could have done this. Also, to think that somebody

could get to that cell door, the tier door, go in the tier, commit a crime and leave completely undetected, it's kind of asinine. So Bill Barr's entire conclusion is based on bullshit and it wouldn't hold up in a court of law and it wouldn't hold up in a kindergarten class. So you believe, Mark, that there's so-called handwritten

note now unsealed by a federal judge is really a fake intended to corroborate the official ruling your brother took his life while waiting for a trial. You believe the note

is a fake. Yes, I believe that the government knows, just like you now know, that this report is coming out that will prove that Jeffrey did not take his own life. They'll prove it conclusively, that Jeffrey could not have taken his own life, as they say. So I believe this is their attempt to now to so doubt about this report, because this is going to be very damning when this report comes out. So now they're trying to put doubt in people's minds. It's like a propaganda thing. Yeah, I don't believe the note is real, because, again, Since there was no prior attempt in July on Jeffrey's part to take his own life, why would he have written such a note? It doesn't make sense to me or to anybody else who looks in it that way.

Another issue in my mind, Mark Epstein, is timing. The so-called dirt nap note remained buried, buried in court documents for years. Now, don't you think if this was legitimate? legitimate, we would have heard about it. At the time your brother was killed, we would have heard, hey, he wrote a note. But no, we didn't. We're only hearing about it now.

Does nobody have a problem with the timing? Mark? Yes, it's because this report is coming out and they are aware of it. It's like if I say I found a note that you wrote saying you were going to take yourself out. It makes no sense. You haven't tried to take yourself out as far as anybody knows. So why would there be a note from you saying, you're going to take yourself out.

Jeffrey didn't try to take himself out. Hence, why would he write a note of that kind? Another issue, Mark Epstein, is the former police officer behind bars on a serious felony, Tartaglione. We're listening to him. He says that your brother wrote the note long before and put it in a book. Why would I believe anything he said?

I didn't even know he was a real. reader. So it doesn't make, none of this makes sense. He also says that he, Epstein, left a note in a book weeks and weeks before he was killed. That defies every other life attempt I have ever seen weeks and weeks and weeks before you die, you leave a note hidden in a book. And then nobody finds it until years later. Nancy, after the event in July, Jeffrey was no longer cellmate with that guy. You know, so they were not in the same cell together after the July event. So, you know, why would Jeffrey write that note and leave it in a book with Pataglione?

Well, here's another issue, Mark, and I've been going through all of the credibility issues. Apparently, the so-called note changed hands over and over and over. It went between many, many people before this guy, this convicted felon, Tartaglione, talks about it in a podcast. really your brother is set to testify against some of the most powerful people and some of the wealthiest people in the world and we find out about this death note

on a podcast from a convicted felon I'm not buying it and neither am I once this report comes out and suicide is taken off the table and now we know Jeffrey was killed you have to you know and the DOJ has been covering this up and then coming up with nonsense, you have to wonder, like I said, people think there's a whole bunch of people that might have wanted Jeffrey dead. I really don't think that list

is that big. Jeffrey was a pretty well-like guy. Then you have to pair that list down to who potentially would have the ability to orchestrate this whole murder and have the DOJ cover it up. You have to look at that. Who would be able to pull this off? If you were doing it, Well, one other thing I noticed is that the note. Let me point out something very important. Sure, go ahead, please. Dr. Kristen Roman, who was the pathologist who actually did the autopsy, it was her autopsy to do. Dr. Biden was there with her.

She was deposed afterwards, and she said in the deposition that one, she was told not to take DNA evidence. And she was also prohibited from going to the crime scene, you know, the jail. Both steps, highly unusual. in a case like that where the medical examiner's office is supposed to determine the cause of death. Now, if this was a real investigation, if they were really looking, okay, when she said she was told not to take DNA evidence, the next question should have been, who told you not to take DNA evidence? But they didn't ask those questions because they want to brush this whole thing under the carpet as Jeffrey's taking himself out instead of being investigated as the murder that it was.

Guys, for those of you just joining with us tonight, Mark Epstein, this is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. And we are supposed to believe that within days of testifying against some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world, Epstein takes a dirt nap. And then the death note appears after having been in files. It disappears for years and now rears its ugly head. Another issue I have regarding credibility, Mark Epstein, is that many, many of your brother's emails have been released to the public. And I noticed that this note mimics some of the other email specifically the tagline that says, what you want me to do? Bust out crying? That is straight from the little rascals.

And he had used phraseology similar to that in other publicly released. emails. What do you make of that, Mark? Well, I think if they wanted to make a note and make it look like Jeffrey wrote it, they would try to use phrases that he's used before to make it sound like he did it. You know, if he's going to write a note like this, supposedly written by Jeffrey Epstein, you know, you're not going to write it in Spanish or Italian or German. You know, he's a speaker and you would use, try to use the language that he would use and the phrases he would use to make it sound authentic.

If they wrote it and it read like it was written in King's English, you would know that Jeffrey Epstein did not write that. So they made it look, if it was forged, they made it try to make a look like it was coming from him. There's no surprise there. But like I said, I got a report showing that the handwriting on the note didn't match up to three other pieces of evidence that we know is his handwriting. And again, why would he write such a note? Why would he write such a note if there was no prior attempt to take himself out? To me, that doesn't make any sense. Also, you know, only about 18% or so of victims who take themselves out write notes.

It's not common. Well, I have to tell you this, Mark Epstein. I've worked with handwriting comparison experts at the crime lab. I've had many, many cases dealing with forgeries. And I know this. I know it's actually very easy if you have a practiced forger to create a note like this,

a short note using phraseology that we know your brother to have used in the past. It's just not that hard. Mark Epstein, what is the single most convincing fact that your brother was murdered and this note is not authentic? Well, the fact that the bruises on his body,

including the ligature mark on his neck, as you pointed out, does not correspond with someone taking themselves out. And the report that's coming out will prove that, will conclusively prove that. The report still shows that he could not have taken himself out the way they say, or any other way. It had to be done by somebody else. Experience Harry Styles live in London, English.

England at Wembley Stadium. This is Harry Styles. Iheart Radio wants to send you in a mate across the pond with flights from Virgin Atlantic, hotel from TripCentral.ca, tickets, and $1,000 cash. Here we go to. Download the free IHart Radio app. Listen to IHart New Music for 10 minutes. Enter to win.

Every day is another chance to see Harry Styles. Very excited to see you at the show. Kiss all the time, disco occasionally available now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now an all-star panel to make sense of what Mark Epstein and others are saying. First, straight out to renowned death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. He is Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

But for our purposes tonight, he has investigated over 10,000. death scenes of all sorts. Be they, death at your own hands, accident, natural causes, unexplained, or homicide. Those are the five choices. Joe Scott Morgan, explain to me why you insist. Jeffrey Epstein was murdered. Two areas to look at. You have to look externally.

Well, let's talk about externally. They're talking about ligature marks on his neck. All right. And when you see these marks, and I've seen every possible angle of these things out there, you've got two overlying marks and they run, one particularly runs parallel to the shoulders. What do I mean by that? The mark is here. It goes straight back.

If someone were to take their own life, it would pitch up. That's called tinting feature. And there is another mark that runs slightly upward at an angle, but it is not sufficient to be defined as tinting feature, which you see with self-inflicted ligatures. Now, you go under the skin, okay? You go under the skin, and this is critical, Nancy. There are two separate fractures in the cartilage in the neck right here, all right? One's on this side, one's on the other side. And then you have, you know, the little bone that we always talk about, the only non-articulating bone in the whole human body.

The hyoid, shaped like a horseshoe, greater left horn is fractured. That's way, way, way, way, way up in the neck. You know, when we see this, Nancy, we see it with manual strangulation. So you can go on and on, you can prattle on and on and say, well, yeah, this is consistent with him having ended himself. However, you'll never convince me. You know who else you're not going to convince? My friend, Dr. Michael Bodden, and there are a lot of other people out there. You're never going to convince either.

There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage. Going over, over a thousand jail hanging suicides in the New York City State prisons over the past 40, 50 years, no one had three fractures. So, Scott, can you address the bruises on his body that his brother, Mark Epstein, discussed? Epstein, Mark Epstein, insist the bruises could not have been self-inflicted, and I agree. Yeah, how do you even explain that? I'm glad that Mark brought that up. You know, you've got

these areas that have been impacted. And we talk about bruises, right, Nancy, fancy $10 word contusion. That means you have to have direct contact. You have to have a direct blow to that area. We've all bumped into furniture. We've bumped into the side of a wall. We've fallen down. And listen, if what they're saying here, if what they're saying is this was actually generated as a result of being in this position, you can't explain that. And also it almost looks as though that it's very, there's a very focal area. It's not widespread and diffuse.

It's kind of a concentrated area. So to me, that implies that implies that there was a direct impact. I don't know if it was generated by hand or I have no idea. But it just does not marry up with this story that they're trying to sell everybody on on this being a self-inflicted event. Before we go to our handwriting expert Bart Baggett, straight out to Lynn Shaw, founder, director of Lynn's warriors dedicated to eradicate trafficking. of women and girls. Lynn, did you hear what Epstein's brother,

Mark Epstein said? A ruling that Epstein died at his own hand, not by homicide, completely shut down the investigation into what happened

to all those teen girls and even younger girls as young as 12. It shut it all down. How convenient? First of all, does the DOJ think the American public is this stupid? We are exhausted from these lies that have been told over and over again. We have medical evidence.

We have the brother of Jeffrey Epstein talking about this. We have our Epstein files transparency act in Washington. Nothing Nancy ever came really of that. Okay? We have exhausted over 1,000 women, some of them girls, young teens, at the time who have come forward. If there's 1,000, you can bet there's at least 2,000. And no one I know working across the United States

on any of this with victims, right, with survivors of all sex trafficking, nobody believes the Epstein story that he would harm himself, that this is what he did. No, no, no. It is so complicit. The only one we're hearing about is Galane Maxwell being in this club fed.

Nobody else top down is being held response. and what a slap in the face now that we have all of this right now coming forward. Shut down. Nobody's believing this. So what's our question? What do we want to do? We're still chipping away trying to get answers. Will we ever get them?

I fear not. Because right now we have too many exhausted survivors, victims overall in the entire sex trafficking movement who just want to actually move forward from this. They've had enough and they know they're being lied to day after day. Joining us now in addition to Lynn Shulner, and Joe Scott Morgan, Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is a renowned psychoanalyst. She is now featured on Peacock and Bravo.

She's the author of Deal Breaker, and she is star of a new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at Dr. Bethanymartial.com. Dr. Bethany, I have a question, and of course, you're the psychoanalyst. I'm just a JD, but why would Epstein put a death note, squirled away, hidden away,

where nobody but a crooked cop, Tardiglione, who has a violent felony history? He's the only one that knows about it. Why wouldn't he put it near him? So it would be known what happened. I just find this really difficult to believe. I've never seen a death note of that nature, tucked away and hidden.

you know what, Epstein didn't hide anything, right? Epstein created a monster factory that drew in... Yeah, look at his room for Pete's sake. Right. A monster factory that drew in academics, politicians, clergy, Wall Street executives. His monster factory drew in everybody. And he liked being at the center of things.

So somebody who wants to be at the center of things is not going to write a note that's going to be hidden away, right? They're just not going to do it. And also, Nancy, people who harm themselves usually have two traits, hopelessness and impulsivity. Epstein was not impulsive. He was a planner. He bought the biggest mansion in Manhattan so he could use it as a job. trading principle with everybody around him. Like, come to my Manhattan Mansion. You know, we're going to have this, these parties, they're going to be debauched. And because of that,

he, he wouldn't like, I just don't see him not planning ahead. And in terms of hopelessness, Nancy, he was about to face trial. And he got out of every consequence in his life. So, So the fact that he was facing trial tells me that he probably thought he was going to get out of all the sex trafficking charges. So why would he unalive himself before his greatest victory or glory when he thought he would get out of everything? Which he had done before. Remember Lynn Shaw, the debacle in Palm Beach where he got a slap on the wrist and house arrest? for molestation, for repeat molestation, and he had a limo driver pick him up at the jail every day, take him wherever you wanted to all day long as long as he checked back in for the night?

Yes. Yeah, we remember that. We remember that, Nancy. We remember that. And that is why this chain of events, like leading up to right now, okay, we've been in front of Congress, survivors and victims. We've been all over the country, you know, holding rallies about, you know, Epstein. We have been talking about Galane Maxwell.

We have had media. We have done it all. And yet still, Dr. Bethany is right. And that is what victims are thinking right now. They're like somebody of power and wealth. And this is overall, even besides Jeffrey Epstein and Galane Maxwell, they have the power. They have the wealth. They have so many people in high positions on their sides and complicit with them in these crimes.

They get away with everything. And I believe this is what, you know, right now with the DOJ, shutting things down repeatedly over and over and over again, right? They want to exhaust anybody who's got any information, any proof, any, anything. So everybody just scatters and goes away. And that is our biggest fear right now at the Warriors, because that is what is happening. These women, some of them, again, girls at the time, right? Minors, they are exhausted. They want to get on with their lives.

They've got families themselves, a lot of them. And again, they will say to me, they're getting away with it. They've gotten away with it. Look at how we're being treated still, still, from top down in Washington, all throughout the communities in the United States. We're never going to win. So let's just stop it. And that is our greatest fear because we have to chip away and keep talking about this

and bringing up medical evidence and bringing up proof. The DOJ, I'm going to say it again. I fear I've said it from the beginning for years now. We are never really going to see complete files and really hold those accountable who participate. in this crime spring. Joining us now a renowned forensic handwriting expert, he is the founder of handwriting experts, Inc. He is the host of the Bart Show podcast, and you can find him

at Bart Baggett.com. Mr. Baggett, thank you for being with us. Contrary to what you have heard so far, you have a different opinion on the death note. Explain. I do. Unfortunately, we don't have a huge opening public file of Jeffrey Epstein's real handwriting, but what we do have is two notes. And my conclusion on those two notes that we found in the gel sale is they were written by the same person. And so that is still very useful information because it seems like these notes arrived at different times, which infuses the story.

And the other part is, is it Jeffrey's handwriting? I think that's the question we should dig into because we don't have, and they haven't released lots of his natural handwriting. That's the confusing part of this story. So on what do you base your analysis that the note is legit? So I base my analysis when we compare the two notes from the jail cell is it's natural, it's fluid, the letters are similar, the capital A is very unique, the lower S's, all the letter forms are similar. And Nancy, I want to push back on you a little bit of what you said earlier, you said it was incredibly easy to create a forge note. And that has not been my experience when you have an entire page of blank paper. My experience has been even with our school,

students struggle to forge anything more than a signature because it has to be fast, has to be fluid, has to have no pen lifts, have to start and stop, and it's fast. And these notes are quickly and naturally written. So that makes me think that these notes were written by the same person, but the jury still out on whether or not it was Mr. Epstein. Experience Harry Styles live in London, England at Wembley Stadium. This is Harry Styles. IHart Radio wants to send you and a mate across the pond with flights from Virgin

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, joining us is a preeminent handwriting expert Bart Baggett. You said fast, but this note did not appear for years. You mentioned it was hard for your students to pull off. off a fake note. But what if it was an expert like yourself that had months and months, maybe even years, to write the note? That's a whole different equation. You talk about counterfeit paintings, counterfeit money, counterfeit notes. If you have time and you have expertise and you have access to his writing, you could practice for years. I think the only

cases that have been really, really hard in the 30 years is when a wife forges the husband's name because they've been working together for 30 years. So she's got like years of practice. Those cases are a little harder. And I think what's interesting is not only is the handwriting so similar, such as the letter forms, the A, the quickness, they've obviously created such a fast thing. The words are the same.

They've got phrases that come directly from email. So you have to ask yourself that question, who had access to understand these phrasings and words and explanation marks? The only way to craft a note this good to get past my professional eyes is to have access to all those files and then submitted into evidence at the appropriate time. Are you insinuating this note was written five years later? And who would have had those files? Dave Mack, joining us, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter, who would have had the files? Nancy, the files have been handled in particular here by Nick Cartaglione and his defense team.

as they're trying to fight his conviction on the murder charges that he is sitting with. He's the guy who said he found the note in his little book after everything went down. All of this is found by the same guy, the only one who benefits by it being written by Epstein. Bart Baggett, let me understand. After your review, you believe the notes are genuine, but you have a concern? Yeah. So what I stated and what I think all forensic experts would say is these two notes found in the jail cell were written by the same person. However, even if that person was Jeffrey, which the evidence points to it, that doesn't mean he unaligned himself. I think people are making the assumptions that if he wrote this note, then that narrative's true. I don't buy that. Why? Because the note itself is not typically what we would think of. of as a one of those notes. There's no depression, there's no sadness.

There's nothing about the typical notes that I've seen when someone does that. I don't think psychologically he was ready to go. Wow. Okay, Dr. Bethany, what about it? There was no hopelessness. People who unalive themselves feel they have no future. He had a rich future. He had money.

He had an island. He had the most expensive home in Manhattan, Nancy, and he traded these commodities for everything he wanted with everybody around him. So he had so many attorneys who were going to help him that he thought he would get out of jail free card. So the hopelessness is not what, you know, hopelessness accompanies unaliving oneself and he didn't have it. Well, there's somebody else that benefits from it being written by Epstein-Lin-Shaw, everyone that wants to shut down the investigation, every single one of those very wealthy, very powerful connections that visited Lolita Island.

Absolutely incredible. Look what we're talking about. This etch a sketch note, has anybody heard of AI? Because the technology with AI, you can recreate anything even better than original handwriting. So I'm saying, of course they're going to put out with similar words, phrases, handwriting, because the technology is there to create this. So everybody's got to wake up the timing of all of this. Tartaglioni, whatever he did and all his stuff, I mean, facing, you know, for murder charges.

How convenient, how convenient is the timing when we know there is a report coming out with more damning evidence again. So I wish everybody would wake up and say it is so. easy these days to forge anything because you have the technology with AI. So let's all look at the other facts we've been talking about, the medical, you know, the victims, all of it, because I don't believe Jeffrey Epstein and everybody I work with. Not one person believes Jeffrey Epstein wrote this note and it came from this criminal. What great timing. The DOJ in my opinion continues to try to shut everything down, but they're at a point right now. They can't because we keep talking about it. We keep chipping away, and the victims and survivors are not really going to let the strong ones,

let this story go away. It remains to be seen. I say stay tuned. A lot's coming down the pike in the next few weeks. With us, Mark Epstein, this is Jeffrey Epstein's brother. Who do you believe would have had access to Jeffrey's handwriting, to Jeffrey Epstein's handwriting? He might, he could have written, you hypothetically, he could have written that note, maybe an anticipation that maybe he'd want to take himself out. I mean, that's a popular. possibility in the world of possibilities, but it doesn't matter. Like the pathologist you have there, he said that marks on Jeffrey's body do not match a self-inflicted hanging the way they're trying to push this off.

There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. there's a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the thyroid cartilage. Going over, over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City State prisons over the past 40, 50 years, no one had three fractures. Just got Morgan. What do you make of that? That's Dr. Michael Biden speaking. Okay, this is what I'm thinking. And I can't get inside Michael's mind. However, for every one of those events that you're talking about, let me read. rephrase that for every single insult that he's referring to that could possibly be separate

individual events okay like and the one thing that has always troubled me is the fact that when you see the external ligature marks on the neck okay um that those markings that are there have been readjusted okay almost like they're trying to replace replace replace this thing and again come back with pressure, okay, over and over again. And also, I think that there is direct pressure being applied with a hand. This is a frenzied event, Nancy. Again, I draw your attention back to the contusion that's at the base of the neck on the post on the posterior neck or the shoulder where the neck essentially joins, joins the shoulder right there. That's a frenzied event. You've got an individual that is probably struggling and fighting for their life. And this thing

is a very, very frenzy. They're having to readjust because they want to take him out. That's why none of this makes sense. Nancy, in all of the years, in all of the years that I have worked as a death investigator, okay? I've had so many hangings. All right. And I have never seen this kind of readjustment that takes place in these events. It's generally, boom, a singular event, the individual goes out. This thing has been adjusted. It has been, I don't know, manipulated is necessarily the term, but I think that there was a frenzied attack in this event

because they were trying to figure out exactly how they were going to put him down and do it quickly. And in that, it's not very smooth, but the end result, you know, of course, is Mr. Epstein is no longer with us. What I wanted to add is another point in part, in Bill Barr's recent congressional testimony, under oath, he was questioned about Dr. Barton's opinion. And he said under oath that Dr. Barton came after the fact. That's what he said. Now, just how stupid is that?

Because we all know Dr. Bonham was there for the entire autopsy. It was Dr. Samson, who called it as suicide. She came after the fact. So I want to make that clear that Bill Barr actually perjured himself by saying that because he had to know. Biden was there for the entire autopsy, but he said Biden came after the fact. You can read the transcript. If you know or think you know anything regarding the death of state's witness, Jeffrey Epstein, dial 800-2-25-5-3-24. Repeat, 800-2-25-5-3-2-4. We remember an American hero trooper Kevin Traynor, Massachusetts State Police, 30 killed in the line of duty after three years on the force, leaving behind a devastated

fiance, Jessica, American hero, trooper Kevin Trayner. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.