Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EPSTEIN VICTIM VIRGINIA GIUFFRE DEAD: 4TH 'SUICIDE' IN SEX RING OF RICH & POWERFUL

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Epstein's sex assault victim, Virginia Giffray, is dead. The fourth fourth suicide connected to a sex ring of the rich and powerful. This as the feds are set to release damning files pointing the finger at who? Darn. And now Jeffrey won't get to be a witness. What are coinkydink. I mean, what are the vaguest odds that four people connected to the Epstein sex ring,

Starting point is 00:00:54 child sex ring, die of suicide? What are the vaguest odds? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Virginia Giuffre is a 16-year-old locker room attendant in Mar-a-Lago when she is approached by socialite Ghislaine Maxwell to work as a traveling masseuse for her associate, American financier Jeffrey Epstein. Over the promise of a $200 rate per massage, Virginia eagerly accepts.

Starting point is 00:01:24 Per massage? My rear end. This was just a little girl like so many of the other little girls that were lured in by Epstein, who many insist did not commit suicide behind bars. Lured in by Epstein and his hitchchperson, Beelzebub from hell, Ghislaine Maxwell. Now, she at this moment is trying to seek a presidential pardon. She was convicted for her role in this. Wow. Do you think Virginia's testimony could have thrown

Starting point is 00:02:01 a wrench in that presidential pardon? Think about it. Joining me, an all-star panel, but first to Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave Mack. Dave Mack, are you telling me with a straight face and I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all because I don't think people can keep their pie holes shut long enough for a conspiracy to actually work. But you're telling me, Dave Mack, that Virginia Giffray dies of suicide. What's the cause of death? How did she die?

Starting point is 00:02:36 Who was with her? Where was she? Wasn't she just released from the hospital? You're telling me that she was released while suicidal? And where did this happen exactly? Wasn't it near Gabby, near Gabby, Australia, population 268 on the last instance, 156 males, 112 females, median age 41. Dave Mack, you're telling me that in near Gabby, Australia, they have a top notch forensics team that knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that she committed suicide with the backdrop of three other witnesses, potential witnesses in a federal sex ring case. They all die of suicide.

Starting point is 00:03:21 You know, Dave Mack in Russia, they push you out of a window. So, Dave Mack, tell me about Virginia's suicide. Well, what we know about Virginia's suicide, Nancy, actually comes from her family because there has been no official cause of death that has been placed in the public for any of us to see. It's being used as clickbait all over. But we don't actually have a real cause of death yet. What we have is the family saying she took her own life. We don't know anything more than that, except for this, Nancy. She was actually staying at her, she was separated from her husband and staying at their farmhouse, a $1.3 million farmhouse in an area, as you mentioned, that is very lightly populated.

Starting point is 00:04:06 Her brothers were staying with her in this farmhouse. She's four weeks removed from leaving the hospital, as you mentioned. And she is there, apparently, if we are to believe what we're being told, that she committed suicide in the middle of a million dollar plus farm mansion. And she is the one person. Dave Mack, I don't recall asking you to put the farm mansion up on real estate sites. OK, we'll get back to the, as you say, million dollar mansion in just a moment. I'm asking you about the COD. Now we don't have a cause of death that has not been released. We don't know if there's been an autopsy here in the

Starting point is 00:04:50 U S of course, uh, there would be an autopsy immediately whenever there's a question, was there an autopsy? Was there a toxicology screening? You just stated Dave Mack that her family said it's a suicide. Well, let me differ with you because her father, her own father, is calling for an investigation, as is her sister-in-law and others. They say that she specifically stated, if I die, believe me, I did not commit suicide. Listen to this. Family of Virginia Jiffrey, led by her father, Sky Roberts, are asking her death be investigated. Roberts tells TMZ, Virginia said if she ever died by suicide, not to believe it. Virginia herself shares comments about suicide in response to something said on social media, writing,

Starting point is 00:05:40 I'm making it publicly known that in no way, shape or form am I suicidal. If something happens to me in the sake of my family, do not let this go away and help me to protect them. Too many evil people want to see me quieted. So, Dave Mack, I'm not quite sure where you're getting your information, but you just heard the father and a sister-in-law who is speaking on behalf of the brother is demanding an investigation. Joining me, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner out of Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. Never a lack of business. He has performed literally thousands of autopsies. He is the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and star of a hit series podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue, set to hit the airwaves. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being

Starting point is 00:06:32 with us. Dr. Kendall Crowns, when at least in the U.S., is an autopsy SOP, standard operating procedure. Anytime there's something that's concerning, you always have an autopsy. So if there's a concern for a suicide, an accident, or a homicide, that individual will be autopsied by a medical examiner or a forensic pathologist. In cases of natural deaths where it's unwitnessed or unsupervised, they don't have a medical history, died outside of a hospital, or died within 24 hours of reaching the hospital, those will also be autopsies. And then, of course, any child under the age of six gets

Starting point is 00:07:11 autopsied automatically. So in this case, Dr. Kendall-Crowns, at least in the U.S., wouldn't there have been, no question, an autopsy? Correct. There's no question there'd be an autopsy on this with the history of with the history with Epstein, with the recent history of a possible car accident and then the history of domestic violence. There's all kinds of factors in play here that could could be something that's going on that makes it not a suicide and could be a homicide. We are talking about the suicide of Virginia Jafray. And this is one of my many, many questions. Where's the death certificate? What is the COD? Has there been a funeral? Where is her body? Don't tell me she's already been cremated for Pete's sake, destroying any forensic evidence. Who investigated this?

Starting point is 00:08:06 The crack detectives in near Gabby, Australia, where there are 268 people, population, last census. Who found her? How did they find her? Did she hang herself? Did she take pills? What pills? Were photos taken? Were measurements taken?

Starting point is 00:08:29 And again, what are the odds? What's the likelihood? And of course, that can never be argued to a jury statistics. But what, you roll the dice. What are the statistics that four witnesses connected to a sex ring, a proven sex ring of the very rich and powerful, just as the feds claim they're going to release all the documents, including a list of massage therapists, Epstein paid for her, Virginia Giuffre, to have massage lessons. Is she on the list? Was she about to be called as a witness? How did she get tangled up with a perv, a billionaire, but a perv nonetheless, like Epstein. This is how. Sometimes he would

Starting point is 00:09:26 just jerk off in front of them and rub his nipples. Sometimes he would have intercourse with them. Sometimes he'd make them, you know, give them blowjobs. It kind of worked like a pyramid scheme. Ghislaine brought me in. I brought other girls in. Those girls brought other girls in. Ghislaine tells me that I have to do for Andrew what I do for Jeffrey. And that made me sick. I just didn't expect it from royalty. That is Virginia Jafray speaking about how she was lured by Jelaine Maxwell as a little girl told she could make $200 an hour if she learned to be a masseuse, a massage therapist. Well, what that actually entailed was something very, very different and illegal. You know, when children are molested, they are never the same. They may look the same to me and you, but on the inside, they never recover.

Starting point is 00:10:28 They may learn to go about their business, hold down a job, try to have a marriage or a family. They're never the same. Now, what you were hearing is from our friends at the Miami Herald and BBC Panorama. That's a Virginia Jeffrey who vowed to never give up the fight, but she committed suicide. Just on the eve of the federal release of those

Starting point is 00:10:51 documents, I want to go to a very special guest. You may not know her name now, but you will. She, like Virginia, was lured in by Epstein. She actually went to Epstein Island.

Starting point is 00:11:13 You know what? I will let her tell her story. Lisa Phillips is joining me now. She is the star and the host of a podcast from now on. And it's a real honor to speak with you, Ms. Phillips. How did you meet, if that's the right word, Jeffrey Epstein? So I was on a photo shoot in early 2000 at the island of Tortola in the British West Indies, very close to his Island.

Starting point is 00:11:52 And we had a free day and, uh, another young blonde Polish model who looks like Virginia, uh, said, you know, I have a friend who owns Island. He's been so wonderful to me. He got me my visa to live in the United States. And so she was just said, you know, let's go for the day. And so I just said, Okay, sure, I'll go with you. And so I went over to the island. And I saw two young blonde girls swimming in the pool with the older gentlemen, dark haired gentlemen. And then later on, we all had dinner together, went out for the day. And later on that evening, a young blonde girl knocked on my door and told myself and the other blonde girl that Jeffrey needed a massage. Or Jeffrey... Actually, she said, Jeffrey's ready for his massage. And so I just was like, what are you talking about? What massage? And so the other girl said,

Starting point is 00:12:46 oh, well, Jeffrey likes, you know, massages. You just, you have to do it. So, you know, I was trapped on the island. I didn't know where to go. I just, you know, followed the girl into his room to do the massage with this other young girl. And I ended up being abused on that island. Lisa, when you say you were abused, what happened? Well, like Virginia was explaining the massages. So the massages turned into, you know, touching and into assault. Were you sex molested, Lisa, by Jeffrey Epstein? Yes, I was. You know, Lynn Shaw joining me. Does it ever end, Lynn? Does it ever end? Lynn is the founder, director of Lynn's Warriors, committed to ending human trafficking and exploitation of girls. Host of Lynn's Warriors

Starting point is 00:13:38 on YouTube. Does it ever end? When I hear Lisa and I look at her, she's so beautiful, so articulate, so poised. I mean, Lisa, has your life ever been the same? I mean, mine hasn't been the same since I was a victim of violent crime. It's never been the same. What did that do to you? You can see that I still get emotional, but I kept it silent for 15 years. It wasn't until Jeffrey died in 2019. And I saw Virginia speak out. I thought, wow, this is a courageous woman. Wow. She has like this bravery to speak out about, you know, what happened to her with Jeffrey. But it was her story about Prince Andrew was the reason why I spoke out. Because I had a young friend, also a blonde, similar to Virginia's look, who was told by Jeffrey to go into a room to have sex with the prince. And that memory I always remembered,

Starting point is 00:14:38 because when I met Jeffrey for the very first time on the island, I remembered seeing that man there. So my story connected in that way. Yes. Yes. Jeffrey introduced me to Prince Andrew. It's so disgusting. And he's like a tick sucking the public's money living in a mansion. And I'm telling you, this girl's battle, now woman, Virginia Jeffrey's battle with Epstein and Prince Andrew, she vowed not to give up ever. And I'm supposed

Starting point is 00:15:17 to believe that she said, oh yeah, you know what? I won the battle against Andrew Epstein's death. So now I'll kill myself. I find that really hard to believe. Lynn Shaw, will it ever end? When I see Andrew trotting around Balmoral or Windsor Castle on a $80,000 horse, my stomach clenches. He should be in jail. Did you hear what Lisa just said? Same thing that Virginia said. Listen, we at the Warriors have spoken with, have interviewed many victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

Starting point is 00:15:56 I want us all to first applaud Lisa for appearing and bravely speaking out. This takes a lot of strength to keep talking about what happened, so we must all commend her. Second of all, Virginia Giuffre, I will never believe, killed herself. She bravely came out as a warrior. And when she did that several years ago, all of the other victims came forward and said, finally, finally, we have some support, resolution, media attention. We're going to get somewhere. Three facts. Right away, law enforcement said, no foul play, nothing to see here. That was number one.

Starting point is 00:16:32 Number two, Virginia was in the process of renovating her house. Number three, she was standing for all the other victims. She would not do anything to harm herself. She wanted to be that warrior for them. And I have to add a fourth point. I don't believe she would leave her children. Something happened here. We're not getting the facts. And will it ever end, Nancy? I'm afraid to say, and I don't like saying this. No, this Epstein story is never going to end. We're never going to hear the truth and the facts

Starting point is 00:16:59 about all of this. Too many complicit, powerful people involved. And another thing, you heard Lynn Shaw say she was in the middle of a renovation. She was fighting to see her children. She would never leave them. But what about this note? What she said, she was getting ready to do battle. Listen. Virginia Jeffrey's sister-in-law, Amanda Roberts, wants to release a quote written by Virginia found in a journal at her Australian farmhouse. In her own hand, Virginia wrote,

Starting point is 00:17:31 Mothers, fathers, sisters, and brothers need to show the battle lines are drawn, and we stand together to fight for the future of victims. Is protesting the answer? I don't know, but we've got to start somewhere. Jeffrey's brother, Sky Roberts, believes the note was intended for organizers of the Washington, D.C. Rally of Sexual Assault Survivors. In a section of the note, she writes, we are not going to go away. 16-year-old Virginia Dufri has started working as a traveling masseuse for financier Jeffrey Epstein, but not all is as it seems. Virginia, just a teen, is being asked to complete tasks that are far outside of her responsibilities.

Starting point is 00:18:08 And soon, the tasks turn into sexual abuse. Tasks? It makes it sound like Epstein's asking her to file documents. He's asking this teen girl to perform sex acts. Oral sex, raping her, massaging him. It goes on and on. And she is not the only girl involved. According to a wide ranging investigation by the federal government, Epstein and his hench person, basically his, his pimp, Jelaine Maxwell, another millionaire, had created somewhat of a Ponzi scheme, a type of structure where these girls, these young girls would go out and recruit other

Starting point is 00:18:59 young girls to take part in sex acts with older, wealthy, and prestigious, let me say, clients. I would call them child rapists, but that's just me. And now we are expected to believe that Virginia Jeffrey, just after all of the battle against Epstein, all of the battle against Prince Andrew, bringing him down on the cusp of the feds, releasing more names. She says, yeah, you know what? I give up. I'm committing suicide. No COD, no autopsy report, no toxicology report, nothing. I went to a high school soccer game last night and the other moms were saying Virginia Jeffrey is probably in the witness protection program. Yes, that's where it's going. The rumor mill in high gear. And why not? Without

Starting point is 00:19:55 any transparency or clarity. She is not the first person connected to this investigation to die of suicide. What about Carolyn Andreano? When she was just 14, Jeffrey Epstein began sexually abusing Carolyn Andreano and continued to abuse her for the next four years. Testifying against Ghislaine Maxwell in her trial for sex trafficking minors, Carolyn Andreano found dead in a West Palm Beach, Florida hotel room at the age of 36, leaving behind a husband and five children. West Palm Beach police say she died from an accidental overdose. Carolyn Andreano is the second Epstein survivor to have died of a fatal drug overdose in Palm Beach County, Florida. The first Epstein survivor to die of an overdose, Lee Sky Patrick,

Starting point is 00:20:39 was found dead in a West Palm Beach hotel from an accidental drug overdose. Patrick's twin sister, Selby Patrick, says Lee Skye suffered tremendously, and it all started with Epstein. It all started with Epstein. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now, we've heard about Carolyn Andreano committing suicide by drug overdose. We've heard about Lee Sky Patrick committing suicide by overdose. Now we hear about Virginia Giuffre committing suicide by overdose. Well, what about the most high profile suicide?

Starting point is 00:21:36 Epstein himself. August 10th, 2019, Jeffrey Epstein is found dead in his cell. Authorities say Epstein tied his bed sheet to his bed frame and leaned forward, essentially hanging himself. Several bones say Epstein tied his bed sheet to his bed frame and leaned forward, essentially hanging himself. Several bones in Epstein's neck were fractured. The inspector general's investigation concluded that prison guards were negligent, fudging the records of their half-hourly rounds while sleeping on duty. Epstein's cellmate was also inexplicably removed despite Epstein's lawyer's requests he not be left alone.

Starting point is 00:22:09 Two cameras that should have monitored Epstein's every move were also not recording during the incident. What happened to Jeffrey Epstein? He had told multiple people that he feared he would be killed behind bars. Specifically, I want to look at the wounds on Epstein's neck. Dr. Kendall Crowns joining me, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. Look behind his neck. Look at that. When someone dies in the way it's purported Epstein died,

Starting point is 00:22:39 much like Robin Williams died, by tying something around the neck and then attaching it to, in this case, a bunk bed and then leaning forward. Why would you have those marks on the back of your neck? And also, Dr. Kendall Crowns, let me direct your attention to the photo on the left, the horizontal photo in a typical suicide by hanging, you see more of a U-shaped indentation and mark. This looks more like a ligature from behind by an assailant mark. And it's not just me saying this. There are renowned medical examiners who agree. Usually when you

Starting point is 00:23:25 have someone who commits suicide by hanging and uses a ligature, they'll attach it to something and then when they hang themselves, the ligature furrow will pull upwards and you get an inverted V on the neck. I mean, usually all the way around the neck, you'll see this inverted V. And in a non-suicidal ligature... Wait, what do I mean? Inverted V? You mean like a smile? An upside down smile. Yeah, it'd be another way to describe it. It's another way. Yes, I would agree with that. So when you have someone that's strangled with a ligature, you don't get that inverted V or upside down smile because they're standing behind

Starting point is 00:24:01 you and pulling that ligature tight around your neck, and that creates those kind of more horizontal lines. The problem with Epstein is every description I've heard of the wound in the pictures I've seen is it doesn't look like it's going upwards, so it's very unusual. He could, could he have hanged himself by putting his neck into the ligature that's just a U and then leaning forward. It would cause that without seeing it on the back of the neck, but you would still get kind of an upward tilt to it. And then that's also a soft ligature. You're not going to get all the fracturing that you're seeing with Epstein as well as the hyoid bone, which is a bone in the neck. Yeah, hold on right there. Hold on right there. You got to drink from the fire hydrant. Epstein's death, according to some, the medical examiner who was working for the state,

Starting point is 00:24:52 says there were three fractures of the hyoid bone and the thyroid cartilage. Now, according to renowned medical examiner Michael Bodden, he says the injuries indicate homicidal strangulation, not suicide. Now, Bodden was the chief medical examiner in New York City and is now considered as a celebrity forensic witness. Do you agree or disagree with Michael Bodden, Dr. Crowns. The problem I have is with the age of Epstein, those bones become more bony and they become more brittle, so they're more readily fractured.

Starting point is 00:25:32 But you don't usually see a lot of the fractures. And I'd have to do a lot more looking at the case, looking at those pictures to really give you a true opinion on that. But it is very unusual what we're seeing in Epstein's case for it to be a suicidal hanging. Virginia, Jeffrey and Prince Andrew are forever linked by Jeffrey's allegations of sex abuse. Jeffrey's claims Ghislaine Maxwell set her up for sex with the prince on three occasions, starting at age 17, resulting in a lawsuit, which the prince settled

Starting point is 00:26:02 all the while denying he had sex with the teen. Likely, the most damaging consequence for Prince Andrew was being stripped of his royal and military titles. Giffrey's death creates more negativity as the allegations jump back into the headlines. According to one royal watcher, Giffrey's death does not exonerate him, but merely closes the matter. In the midst of Andrew's alleged battle to hold on to the mansion he's been living in rent free, suddenly Virginia Jeffrey commits suicide after all she has survived. In the midst of another battle seeking support for sex attack victims across the world, she suddenly commits suicide. Listen to Virginia. I was recruited at a very young age from Mar-a-Lago and entrapped in a world that I didn't understand. And I've been fighting that very world to this

Starting point is 00:26:55 day and I won't stop fighting. I will never be silenced until these people are brought to justice. From our friends at Fox News, I won't stop fighting. I will continue to fight until all of these people are brought to justice. I will never be silenced. Yet, somewhere in near Gabby population, about 200 people, she commits suicide, according to some. Listen to more. I know this guy. There's an opportunity, actually. If you want to become a real massage therapist. We can get you trained.

Starting point is 00:27:26 You can come for the interview tonight. And if he likes you, then you'll be a real masseuse. He said, take off your clothes. I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts on them, I remember. And they were laughing at that because they liked that. The younger you look, the better it is. It turned very sexual. It turned into, it turned very sexual and it was abuse straight away from both of them. That's Virginia speaking to our friends

Starting point is 00:27:52 at Lifetime. Joining me, renowned psychoanalyst out of LA, author of Deal Breakers at drbethanymarshall.com. You can see her now on Peacock. Dr. Bethany, did you hear what Virginia just said? She was a little girl and on her girl's undies, there were hearts and all of the adults started laughing at that because she was such a, quote, little girl. It's disgusting. It is disgusting. And they abused her in so many ways. Not only did they predate upon her when she was just working at Mar-a-Lago and and one of the reports says she was actually in foster care before that. So she was as typical with their victims in a very vulnerable, precarious place in their life, longing for parental love or love from adults. But then they laugh at her underwear. And it doesn't stop there, Nancy.

Starting point is 00:28:48 A lot of the victims have reported that once they tried to get away from Epstein and Gillen Maxwell, that Gillen and Epstein came after them. So it's a lot like the Catholic priests who predated on young kids. You know, when the kids tried to break away, the priests would keep stalking them. So this is sort of a lifetime of abuse that Jeffries has been exposed to. Nancy, when I first heard of this death, I thought she is such a resilient woman. How can a woman who's so resilient take her own life? She also has three children. She was talking about restoring her farmhouse. She was thinking

Starting point is 00:29:31 about having a bright and optimistic future, which is not what you see with people who are suicidal. Often they feel very hopeless. They actually make no references to the future if they're planning on killing themselves. So this whole story just doesn't make sense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to special guest Lisa Phillips joining us, Epstein's survivor. And you can see her. She is the founder and the star of a podcast from now on. And her story is amazing.

Starting point is 00:30:14 I have seen sex assault victims who can't even raise their head and look up and meet your gaze. She has continued to battle on and she was inspired when Virginia spoke out. Lisa, I don't understand how Epstein's web of sex trafficking with very rich, very powerful clients, how it has stayed silent for so long. And even now, D.C. is kicking rocks. They're not releasing the documents they promised they would release. Why? Doesn't that bother you? Well, I think victims don't understand what's going on in the moment. For many years, I didn't understand it until I started talking to other survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and realizing that our stories were exactly the same. So meeting Virginia and talking to her in those years, I realized that she was the young girl that I met on the island that day. I realized I saw her frolicking in the pool with the prince. And later on, I met the prince that evening.

Starting point is 00:31:23 And then a couple years later, I had a young friend that was also abused met the prince that evening and then a couple years later I had a young friend that was also abused by the prince was told by Jeffrey to go into a room to have sex with this prince and that was the reason I started speaking out and then when I started talking to all these being a lot of girls there was 30 40 50 of them that I was speaking to when we were all in this group and understanding that the same men that we were being introduced to, we were actually being trafficked to because oftentimes it ended in abuse or an attempted assault. So we started putting it all together that this was a sex trafficking ring. And I started getting angrier and angrier about this. And that's why we started discussing like, we need to have a podcast about these serial predators. And I focus

Starting point is 00:32:10 obviously on Jeffrey Epstein. And just knowing the abuse that for myself, and I also witnessed many, many girls that were 18 to 24 in New York. In Florida, you know, with Ghislaine, they were underage. But in New York, most of the women were between 18 and 24. Hundreds that have come forward. Speaking of Palm Beach, joining me now is a veteran trial lawyer, Andrea Lewis, partner at Searcy Law Firm in Palm Beach, Florida. President of Palm Beach County Bar Association at SearcyLaw.com. She was there in that jurisdiction when Epstein was prosecuted and given a slap on the wrist. Trust me, Andrea had nothing to do with that cover up, which it was. And that ended up costing Acosta his job way up in the federal government because he went along with that deal where Epstein had been molesting child after child, after girl, after girl.

Starting point is 00:33:21 And he basically got a form of house arrest. He would have to report to the jail. But then once he reported, he could have his private limo driver pick him up at the jail. He'd be gone all day and come back to sleep there. Nothing. He got nothing. And so when you hear that one out of four people connected to this sex ring now having committed suicide, I mean, Anjia, that doesn't raise a bell of alarm to you? Well, Nancy, you're 100 percent right. I mean, the facts here are really shocking. I mean, it is so unusual to have this many suicides, this many tragedies, all that are circling this one very powerful man. And of course, as you noted time and time again, the other very unusual thing about this story is the other powerful, wealthy people that continue to roam free, who were, of course, involved in some way or another in this horrific, longstanding acts of child abuse and human trafficking.

Starting point is 00:34:35 Virginia Jeffrey had just begun to fight. But now we hear she, like three other people connected to this very powerful sex ring, has committed suicide. Not according to her lawyer. This case is not going away. Virginia Giuffre is not going to go away and I'm not going to go away. Rennell lawyer David Boies insisting Virginia Giuffre is not going to go away. Rennell lawyer David Boies insisting Virginia Giffray is not going to go away.

Starting point is 00:35:08 As a matter of fact, she was supporting Denim Day, a march, a protest in Washington across from the Capitol to support rape and sex assault victims' rights. Irv Brandt joining me now, former senior inspector,

Starting point is 00:35:23 U.S. Marshal, has literally gone around the world hunting down bad guys. Author of an entire series on Amazon about Jack Solo, latest solo shot, Curse of the Blue Stone. Irv, Prince Andrew, listen. That's me, but whether that's my hand or whether that's um the position i i but i don't i have simply no recollection of a photograph ever being taken that was the train wreck interview andrew gave uh that was from our friends at bbc and this is the photo he's talking about first he said that couldn't be him because he had never been to Jelaine Maxwell's

Starting point is 00:36:05 second story of her. Oh, there she is. Second story of her condo, I believe in Mayfair, a Tony part of London. And there he is with Virginia Giuffre. Then he says it couldn't be him because these were not the clothes he would have worn in London because these are his quote traveling clothes. What is he talking about? Irv Brandt, his traveling clothes. Really? Then he tried to claim that that's not his left hand because it's too red.

Starting point is 00:36:37 Wow. It matches his right hand. I mean, then he said he couldn't possibly have met her at a disco because she said he was sweating and he doesn't sweat because of a war wound. It just gets worse. Train wreck. Perfect way to describe it. What do the laws work differently in Great Britain than they do in the U.S.? Because he should be in jail.

Starting point is 00:36:59 Nancy, it's the whole thing. It's disturbing. And when you said train wreck, I would say that's the best way to describe it. The stories don't make sense. The answers to the questions don't make sense. For an investigator conducting an interview, I just couldn't imagine I would throw my hands up in the air, you know, and look at the and look at the person that I'm interviewing and ask them, what are you trying to say? I can't make any sense of it. And just listening to you describe it, I can't make any sense of it.

Starting point is 00:37:37 And even after that sweetheart deal. And yes, Andrea Lewis, I know you had nothing at all to do with it. In fact, you opposed it in Palm Beach. Andrew was still snugged up with Epstein in his Manhattan mansion, and they have been spotted on camera walking through Central Park. I mean, Andrea Lewis is certainly is not probative, but have you, did your grandma say to you, birds of a feather flock together, lay down with the dog, you'll wake up with the flea? What was Andrew doing with Epstein except something nefarious? And why isn't he in jail? Well, Nancy, that's a great question. And it's a question that's

Starting point is 00:38:16 on everybody's mind, because certainly you have somebody who is rich and powerful, who is a known associate to somebody who is clearly involved in the abuse of children, widespread abuse of children over many years. And it really leaves you questioning. How wouldn't he have known about this? Everybody else seems to have known about this. And, you know, did you just hear Lisa Phillips? Lisa Phillips. Let me see, Lisa. You're sure that was Andrew. Prince Andrew. I guess his last name is York or Wales or whatever. That was him paddling around in the pool. What? In a thong with those teen girls? It was definitely him because Jeffrey introduced me to the prince

Starting point is 00:39:03 after I told him I grew up in Oxford, England. And yet I just saw a shot of him galloping around Windsor Castle on the grounds on like an $80,000 horse. Why is he not in jail? Well, recall that he agreed to a settlement of millions and millions of dollars with Virginia Jafray. Now, she won that battle. She's continuing to fight. You want to tell me that when those docs are finally released by the feds, that's not going to open up a big can of worms and her voice will be needed?

Starting point is 00:39:41 And as a matter of fact, think about what she's already overcome. Listen to Virginia Giuffre speaking to our friends at Lifetime. I remember sitting at the bottom of my shower and crying my eyes out. I'd been on the streets and I thought, you know, well, maybe this is the lesser of two evils. I had the promise of an education and maybe this is just how the world works. From our friends at Lifetime. And after she survived all of that, now with a multi-million dollar settlement, she decides to quit. Did Epstein survivor Virginia Jeffries commit suicide. It would make her one of four people, witnesses in the Epstein case. One out of four that committed suicide. What are the odds of that?

Starting point is 00:40:39 To special guest, Lisa Phillips, Epstein survivoror Star of Podcast from now on. Lisa, how did it impact you when you learned Virginia is dead? Oh, that was a hard, hard day for me. And it has been since I just had so many emotions. And I just, I feel so bad for the life that she lived. You know, the cycle of abuse is what we focus on and from now on in the healing process that she has been through fighting since she was a child, a child of rape and a runaway and a traffic victim

Starting point is 00:41:16 and a domestic violence survivor. So it's been a hard life for her. And I really do hope that she didn't commit suicide, but it's a highly suspicious death. Suspicious. Yes, it is. Again, Vegas odds. They don't lie. I hope and pray for justice in this case. And tonight, a hero, Virginia Giffray, who lived a life of torment, but managed to bring down one of the most powerful and most wealthy men in the U.S., Jeffrey Epstein and his henchperson, Jislaine Maxwell, now seeking a presidential pardon. She never quit fighting,

Starting point is 00:42:09 regardless of the obstacles in front of her, and was an inspiration to so many other sex attack victims around the world. Virginia Jafray. Godspeed. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EPSTEIN VICTIM VIRGINIA GIUFFRE DEAD: 4TH 'SUICIDE' IN SEX RING OF RICH & POWERFUL

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