Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Ethan Crumbley Parents Want Evidence Thrown Out in Their Involuntary Manslaughter Trials

Episode Date: January 13, 2024

School shooter Ethan Crumbley opened fire in a Michigan school, killing four students. He pled guilty to all charges and is now serving life in prison. His parents, James and Jennifer Crumpley, are also charged with involuntary manslaughter. Prosecutors say they should have been aware of their son's mental health and should not have made it possible for him to have access to weapons.  The parents' trials are expected to begin later this month, but now Jennifer Crumbley has asked a judge to dismiss three witnesses who say their testimony could prejudice a jury. A judge has ruled, however, that two of the witnesses will be allowed to testify, with a narrow focus.  The jury will also be allowed to see surveillance video from the school. Joining Nancy Grace today: Troy Slaten – Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC; Twitter @TroySlaten Dr. Jorey L. Krawczyn – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide” Bobby Chacon – 27 years former FBI Agent; Instagram/Twitter: @BobbyChaconFBI; Writer and Co-producer: Audible Original Series, “After the Fall”  Dr. Jeffrey M. Jentzen – Professor of Forensic Pathology and Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services at the University of Michigan Medical School; Former Medical Examiner in Milwaukee County, Wisconsin Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories; Twitter: @swimmie2009 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A mother and dad actually part of a school shooting that left four students dead, including 16-year-old Tate Meyer, 16-year-old Justin Schilling, 14-year-old Hannah St. Juliana, and 17-year-old Madison Baldwin, seven others injured.

Parents actually had a hand in the shooting. In the last hours, a development. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Now, while Jennifer Crumley and her husband claim they have no responsibility for what their son, Ethan Crumley, did. That is murder and maim school students. The state response, Judge Cheryl Matthews said, texts and writings in Ethan Crumley's journal show his intent and that he talked to his parents about his mental health

and that they should have been aware of his mental state. The judge also pointed out that violent video games that Ethan Crumley played can also be presented as evidence against the parents. The parents respond that many young people play violent games. Allowing Ethan Crumley to play them is the norm. However, the state responds, these games aggravated his violent tendencies. Did they know or didn't they? Well, in the last hours, we learned that the parents, Jennifer and James Crumley, each charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter for their roles in the school shooting, are demanding that three witnesses who were victimized during the shooting

be excluded from the trial. They say that it would be devastating, gruesome, and appalling factual evidence that could, quote, inflame the jury. Just days ago, Oakland County prosecutors there in Michigan filed documents adding the three witnesses to Jennifer Crumley's trial based on prior testimony in the shooter, Ethan Crumley's case. They testified about what transpired during the shooting, all relevant according to court documents. Not only do prosecutors say that Ethan Crumley played the violent video games at home with full consent by his two parents, that he told them about his mental and emotional problems. But also, prosecutors say the Crumley parents purchased their teen boy a firearm for Christmas

and posted about it on Facebook. Prosecutors also say, even knowing of their son's violent fantasies, the firearm was not secured inside the home. Now, these cases against the parents are the first of their kind in our country, not only because of the involuntary manslaughter charges filed against the mom and dad, but because Ethan Crumley was charged with terrorism resulting in death, in addition to the murder charges. What exactly happened?

Take a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. Their son is accused of killing four students during a school rampage in Michigan last November, and the parents are facing their own serious charges of manslaughter for allegedly allowing him access to a gun. Can you imagine you take your children to school that morning or you put them on the bus and then the next thing you know you get urgent text you may see a flash on the news your child is dead from a school shooter and by all accounts the parents had plenty of warning his parents Ethan Crumley's parents had plenty of warning. His parents, Ethan Crumley's parents, had plenty of warning that there was something very, very wrong. And for those of you that are not familiar with what we're talking about, the school shooter, Ethan Crumley, take a listen to Hour Cut 29 from our friends, Fox.

Be on the lookout. A BOLO alert has been issued for James and Jennifer Crumley, the parents of Ethan Crumbly, the accused Oxford High School shooter. Now, we did have our reporter confirmed through two police departments that a statewide bolo was issued for the Crumblys just here on Friday afternoon, hours after they were charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection to the Oxford High School shootings. Now, a description of the vehicle or a last possibly known location was released. Anyone who sees the Crumblies, they are pictured here on your screen in that left-hand box. You're urged to call police. The Crumblies were charged just today with four counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Four counts of involuntary manslaughter. Mommy and Daddy go on the run. Here's a little more information. Take a listen to Pierre Thomas, ABC. Student John Edwards describing the chaos to our affiliate WXYZ. Over the PA, we hear our principal, Mr. Wolf, shouting, Alice, lockdown, Alice, lockdown. And then we heard the gunshots in the class. And so we locked down, turned the lights off. Our teacher got paper taped over the window on the door and got his two big tables and

barricaded the door. He's just scared. I was praying for, you know, my safety, my friend's safety, you know, everyone's safety. Edwards able to call his mother. I could hear the fear in his voice. And I told him, I said, baby, I'm on my way. I've never been so scared in my life. School officials left reeling. Of course, I'm shocked. It's devastating.

Really shocked and devastated. I'm sure that teacher was. But guess what? There were warning signs and lots of them. Not everyone should be so shocked, and that includes some school officials and mommy and daddy. Why did so many students have to die? I mean young students. Can you imagine all the times my students, my children, your children, other students in school have practiced lockdowns? And this teacher, I think a hero teacher, goes into lockdown mode, locking the door

to the classroom, barricading the door to the classroom, turning the lights off so the shooter can't see through into the classroom, the lights off so the shooter can't see through into the classroom, putting paper up so the shooter can't see through. We take pot shots at students hiding inside the classroom. Things we've learned from so many other school shootings. Take a listen and brace yourself. It's classroom video. Yes. Sheriff's office. Safe to come out.

He said safe to come out. I don't know. Now we're not willing to take that risk right now. I can't hear you. We're not taking that risk right now. Okay, well, come to the door and look at my bag, bro. Yeah, bro. He said bro.

He said bro. He said bro. Red flags. Oh. Slow down. You're fine. I want you to drop that pack. You're okay. You can hear the students hustling and rustling, trying to get out windows, trying to find a way out. You can hear a teacher saying,

put down your bags, forget your bags, just get out. That's actual sound from the school shooting. And if you can let yourself, let your mind go there. Imagine your children in that situation trying to put down their bags and get out a window, sneak out any way they can after they hear gunshots ringing out in the hall. Mommy and Daddy go on the run after their son does that. The baby face killer. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. Spencer Corson, founder, president, Corson Security Group, author of The Safety Trap,

a security expert's secrets foring Safe in a Dangerous World. Troy Slayton, high-profile lawyer, joining us out of L.A. Dr. Jory Croson, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, and consultant, author of Operation SOS, Bobby Chacon, 27 years with the FBI at BobbyChacon.com. Dr. Tim Gallagher joining us, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com. But joining us right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk. Alexis, did you hear that mother saying she was telling her son, baby, I'm on the way, I'm on the way, I'm on the way, like she could do anything about it?

I'm just overwhelmed at all the warning signs. And these victims are so young. Alexis, how old are the victims that lost their lives? These kids were so young. So there were four students that have died. Madison was 14. Juliana was 15. Kate was 17.

And Justin was 17. None of these kids were even 18 years old yet. Two of them couldn't even drive yet. One of them just 14 years old. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, lawyers for the mom and dad of Ethan Crumley demand evidence against them in court be thrown out. In a very unique case, the mother and father of Ethan Crumley, who bought him guns, allowed him to watch violent videos, knew about his violent tendencies and ideations, are being tried in connection with Ethan Crumley, their son's school shooting. Alexis Tereschuk, there were a lot of red flags. For instance, take a listen to our cut 14. This is Linda Schmidt, Fox 5. A lieutenant provided new details about the shooting.

The school security video shows Ethan exit a bathroom in the hallway and begin shooting at students. Students then barricading themselves in classrooms behind stacks of desks and chairs. Others racing out of school to safety. Officers say they have a journal written by Ethan Crumbly taken from his backpack where he expresses his desire to murder students. As well as two videos recovered from Crumbly's cell phone. the video was taken from his backpack where he expresses his desire to murder students as well as two videos recovered from crumbly cell phone.

I did a video made by him the night before the incident where he talked about shooting and killing students the next day at Hockster High School. The prosecutor saying the teenager planned the mass shooting.

I am absolutely sure after reviewing the evidence that it isn't even a close call. It was absolutely premeditated. The teenager and his parents had spoken with school officials that morning at the school about some concerning behavior in class, but authorities say there was no indication of a possible shooting. Concerning behavior in class? Alexis Tereshchuk, what concerning behavior in class? There were, a teacher saw that he had done a drawing, Ethan did a drawing which showed a person being shot with a gun on it and blood everywhere. So he, you know, where students doodle who they love

or who they, you know, were their favorite artists in class. He was doing a doodling of a murder scene and it was talking on there about shooting it. And it just said, help me, help me. I don't I don't get it. Why wasn't he taken out of class right then, that minute and keep him out? Yes, I want a student that's suffering emotionally to get help. Absolutely. But I'm talking about protecting all the other innocent students. Maybe if, what if we treated them 10 years ago? What if there is no time for what ifs in these situations? Of course, in a perfect world,

you want someone treated the moment they began having an emotional mental issue, Bobby Chacon. But when a teacher sees gun, blood, I want to kill my other students, that's when he gets taken out pronto. That's what I'm asking you. Yeah, Nancy, I don't even see this as almost in pain. It looks to me like he was reveling in and he was fantasizing about carrying this thing out. He wanted to do this. He was planning on doing it. And he had two parents who probably knew

he was going to do it. And then they provided him the means to do it. So this is an egregious case. I'm sick about it, Bobby. I'm sick. And I know I'm preaching to the choir right here, right now, because everybody on this panel has dealt with something similar to this. But Bobby Chacon, I mean, you were one of the

feds, the FBI, that pulled the body parts of Samantha Koenig out of the water. Okay. You've seen this. She was a teen like this. My point is, yeah, I want everyone, not just teens, but everyone that has a mental or emotional crisis to be treated, of course, but that's a day late and a dollar short as far as I'm concerned right now. Guys, how in the hay did he get a gun? 15 years old, and listen to this. It's a Sig Sauer. Take a listen to our cut 17. James Crumbly purchased a Sig Sauer 9mm Model SP 2022 from Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford, Michigan on November 26, 2021. A store employee

confirms that Ethan Crumbly was present with James at the time of the purchase. Per statute, James Crumbly completed ATF form 309A, 53009A. On or about November 26, 21, Ethan Crumbly's social media posts reveal photos of the semi-automatic handgun, along with the caption, Just got my new beauty today, including emoji with hearts. Sig Sauer 9mm. Any questions I will answer. End quote. Subsequent to the purchase of that weapon, one of Jennifer Crumbly's social media posts on about 11-27-21 read, quote, mom and son day testing out his new Christmas present, end quote. And they posted that. Explain that to me, Alexis Treschuk. The mom, Jennifer

Crumbly, she was put on her social media the day after the dad and Ethan went to purchase the gun, but she was spending the day with her son trying out his new Christmas present. So they were going somewhere to practice firing the gun. These are not the only guns in the house. There are videos, news videos, of police officers carrying armloads of weapons out of the home. They appear to be long barrel rifles. This is not the only firearm. Okay.

So, Alexis Tereshchuk, I understand how you feel about gun control. I also approve of certain gun controls myself. I don't like guns. I'm a victim of gun violence. My fiance was murdered. I get it. But, Troy Slayton, in this country, it's not a crime to keep guns in your home, especially when you have them being kept pursuant to the law, right? That's correct, Nancy.

And Michigan does not have strong or really any child access prevention laws. So it was not illegal for the parents to keep guns in the house. And there was no requirement in their state to have those guns locked in a gun safe or with trigger locks on them. So as much as we don't like the way the guns were kept, and I don't like a teen boy having access to a gun without parental supervision in

any way. That's the law there. And as of right now, they can cart out a hundred long guns in that jurisdiction and it is not a crime. But I want you to take a listen to our cut 19. This is the Oakland County prosecutor, Karen McDonnell. Listen. On November 30th, 21, the morning of the shooting, the next day, Ethan Crumbly's teacher came upon a note on Ethan's desk, which alarmed her to the point that she took a picture of it on her cell phone. The note contained the following, a drawing of a semi-automatic handgun pointing at the words, quote, the thoughts won't stop, help me, end quote. In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet with the following words above that bullet, quote, blood everywhere, end quote. Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding.

Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words quote my life is useless end quote and to the night right of that are the words quote the world is dead end quote back to you alexis teres chuck what were their ages again anna was 14 kate was 16 justin was 17 and madison was. These are all such young children. Then, and you know what? Kate was actually taken. One of the police officers who responded to the scene,

Kate was still alive when he responded. He didn't even wait for the ambulance. He, I'm going to cry. It makes me so sad. He grabbed Kate and put him in his car to rush him to the hospital. He died in his car. Sorry. You know, Alexis, when I heard the audio that one of the teens had made,

and you could hear them rustling around trying to get out windows, and the teacher going, put down your backpack. Forget that. Just get out. I just, I can't help it. I put, I superimposed my children, John David and Lucy, into that situation. And it's almost more than I can bear, especially upsetting are the warning signals. Take a listen to our cut 20. James and Jennifer Crumbly were immediately summoned to the school. A school counselor came to the classroom and removed the shooter and brought him to the office with his backpack.

Counselor obtained the drawing, but the shooter had already altered it. The drawings of the gun and the bloody figure were scratched out along with the words, Help me, and my life is useless. The world is dead and blood everywhere. Those were all altered by him. At the meeting, James and Jennifer Crumbly were shown the drawing and were advised that they were required to get their son into counseling within 48 hours. Both James and Jennifer Crumbly failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun which he had with him. James and Jennifer Crumbly resisted the idea

of then leaving the school at that time, of their son leaving the school at that time. Instead, James and Jennifer Crumbly left the high school without their son. He was returned to the classroom. In the last hours, the parents of school shooter Ethan Robert Crumbly demand evidence be thrown out. What more do we know? counselors allowed Ethan Crumbly to stay in class, go back in class the day of the shooting after he claimed the graphic drawing of blood and bullets was part of his plan to make a video game. He actually duped them. Yes, that is absolutely true. In fact, while he was, he was taken out of the classroom when the teacher saw the drawing, he in fact, they had called his parents the prosecutor has announced that his mom sent him a text.

Jennifer sent Ethan a text that said, I'm not mad at you, LOL. You just need to learn not to get caught. So he was the day before he'd been searching for ammunition. The school sent a warning flag to the parents and the mom thought it was an LOL joke, which is laugh out loud. OK, you need to tell me that very slowly again. The day before the school, a teacher caught Ethan Crumley scrolling, what, through his iPhone looking for ammunition. Could you explain that again?

Yes, a teacher saw him on his phone searching for ammunition, gun ammunition. This was a red flag to the teacher. The teacher called somebody at the school that the school alerted his parents they left the parents a message the parents did not respond is what the prosecutors have said instead one after the shooting happened when they had ethan's phone they saw a text message from his mom that said i'm not mad at you You just need to learn how to not get caught, LOL. What is that to you, Dr. Jory Cross? It's just complete denial?

On the school part system? Oh, the mom. The mom. What is he doing scrolling through ammunition at school anyway? Why wasn't that phone taken away or some reprimand of some sort? Why is he looking at that during class? Well, again, you go back to the Michigan law. That's not against the law. It may be a red flag, but once the red flag's up there, they didn't respond properly to it. What I'm saying is, why is he scrolling on his phone during school anyway? That said, the parents don't even call back, Alexis? They did not. The school, so far that what we've learned from the school is they did not call back, but then they were there the next day. And then when Ethan's phone was taken after the shooting, they saw this text message. And this

is one of the reasons, this is what the prosecutor had said, sort of laying out the timeline of what happened. Guys, we are talking about two parents, the mommy and the daddy go on the run when their son is charged in a horrific school shooting. You know, Alexis, you earlier said that four are dead now. What did you mean by that now? So three of those students basically died on the scene. One died in the hospital afterwards. So we hear about mom texting the day before when he's caught scrolling for ammo and she says just don't get caught next time lol. Well those aren't the only texts we were learning about from mom and maybe this is one of the reasons all they saw of her were elbows and tail hole on the run, running the other way.

Take a listen. Our cut 21. When the news of the active shooter at Oxford High School had been made public, Jennifer Crumbly texted to her son at 1122. I'm sorry, at 122 p.m. Quote, Ethan, don't do it. End quote. At 1.37 p.m., James Crumbly called 911, reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter. Further investigation revealed that the Sig Sauer 9mm handgun purchased by James Crumbly was stored unlocked in a drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom. The gun recovered from the shooter at the school after the shooting was the same gun

that was purchased by his father, James Crumbly. Take a listen to why charges are being brought against Crumbly's parents. Here's cut 22. This is the prosecutor. The facts of this case are so egregious. Reading this document, looking at it, reading the words, help me, with a gun, blood everywhere. This doesn't just impact me as a prosecutor and a lawyer. It impacts me as a mother. The notion that a parent could read those words and also know that their

son had access to a deadly weapon that they gave him is unconscionable. And I think it's criminal. It is criminal. Explain to me, Alexis Tereshia, what the charges are against the parents. There are four counts of involuntary manslaughter. That is because four people have died from this. So involuntary manslaughter is where it wasn't directly their fault. They didn't pull the trigger, but they are responsible for the death of these four people. Guys, take a listen to Hour Cut 6.

It puts you in the location at the time of the shootings. This is Mary McDonald, WDIV Local 4. The accused shooter's behavior had raised red flags before yesterday. We have since learned that the schools did have contact with the student the day before and the day of the shooting. Yesterday before the shooting, that 15-year-old's parents were brought to school for a face-to-face meeting with school administrators over his classroom behavior. Just under three hours later, school cameras recorded him. And what's depicted on that video, honestly, Judge, I don't have the words to describe how horrific that was.

The accused shooter seen coming out of a bathroom and firing, aiming for students' heads with a gun his father bought last Friday. Aiming for students' heads, obviously going into the bathroom to get the gun locked and loaded. It was a Sig Sauer 9 SB 2020. You don't play with that. A nine millimeter. I want to go to you, Bobby Chacon, explain what a nine Sig Sauer is. Well, it's a semi-automatic pistol, which means that, you know, you can fire it fairly rapidly.

It probably held anywhere between 10 and 15 bullets in each magazine. He had extra magazines with him, which means he was planning on killing probably a lot more people than this. And so this is a gun that's commonly used by both criminals and law enforcement. It is a very effective weapon, especially at close range, like he was shooting. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. School shooter Ethan Crumley detailed a plan to stalk, rape, torture, and kill a female classmate. Did his parents know? We do know that the mom and dad, James and Jennifer Crumley, met with school administrators on the morning of the shooting to discuss violent drawings he made just hours before his violent rampage.

But the parents dismissed the concerns and left without taking him home for the rampage to start. Quote, the thoughts won't stop, Ethan Crumley wrote beneath a drawing of a gun. He also wrote, help me. Above the drawing of a bullet, he wrote, blood everywhere. Further down the page, lots of words and phrases, including my life is useless. During the school meeting, the parents were there when teen shooter Ethan Crumley convinced the school officials during this meeting that the disturbing drawings were just for a, quote, video game. His parents, quote, flatly refused to take him home, says the local prosecutor. I'm looking at the drawings right now. They're very disturbing. According to prosecutors, Ethan Crumley planned the shooting in detail and carried out his actions without showing any remorse at the time. Extensive planning. He even put toilet paper in his ears to protect his own

hearing before the shooting. He researched and knew what kind of weapon he needed and determined the one his parents had already given him would not suit for the job. So he advocated for a higher power firearm with more deadly bullets. And then he practiced. He actually went to a shooting range, and the parents knew this. Crumley's defense argued at trial. He had signs of severe mental illness years before the shooting, and his parents nor the school did anything to help him.

That's all going to be blowback on the parents at their trial. Take a listen to our Cut 26 7 Action News. Tonight, U.S. Marshals posted a $10,000 reward in the case. James and Jennifer Crumbly are wanted on charges of involuntary manslaughter in the mass shooting that put their 15-year-old son behind bars. The search goes on as thousands gathered in Oxford tonight to mourn the tragic loss of life at the high school on Tuesday. And now we learned the U.S. Marshals get in on it. That means they're on the run, on the run. That's what the U.S. Marshals do. They are government bounty hunters.

When you get the U.S. Marshals on your tail, you're in trouble. Tell me about them going on the run, Alexis Reschuk. So the shooting took place on Tuesday. Thursday afternoon, the police were still observing them. They had kept an eye on the family the whole time. The mom and dad had actually moved into a hotel because there were probably so many people at their home. So they were in a hotel. Everybody kept an eye on them. Friday morning, nothing had been announced. There had been no charges announced. The police stopped their surveillance of the couple. Shortly thereafter, the prosecutor announced the charges and the prosecutor, I believe, had spoken to the police officer and they were given, I'm sorry,

spoken to the defense attorney. They were given a I'm sorry, spoken to the defense attorney. They were given a four o'clock deadline to turn themselves in. Four o'clock came and went. They did not turn themselves in. And in fact, the sheriff then says at this point there was no contact with them at all. The sheriff said he went on television to a news channel and said, we have not heard from them. They have turned off their cell phones and their attorneys have not been able to reach them, which meant that there was no communication. So that's when they put out the, I guess they're calling it a bolo, be on the lookout. The U.S.

Marshals offered the $10,000 reward. Friday night, they are still missing. Troy Slayton is just like Ghislaine Maxwell, who goes on the run. Nobody can find her. She's posting false leads like at an In-N-Out burger in L.A. when she's really hiding out in New Hampshire. And what does that say about a parent willing to run for the Canadian border when their son needs them more than he's ever needed them in his whole life? Take a listen to Megan Fitzgerald, NBC. This morning, James and Jennifer Crumbly are in custody after an hours-long manhunt led to their arrest overnight. The vehicle is a black Kia. It's the practical vehicle of the two parents of the Oxford situation. The couple found hiding in a commercial building after police received a tip. They certainly appeared to be

distressed. Authorities say the parents of accused Michigan school shooter Ethan Crumbly failed to show up for their arraignment Friday. They were finally captured hours later and each charged with involuntary manslaughter. You know, gun control experts say the move to charge the parents is almost unheard of. What do you make of the charges, Troy Slayton? Well, Michigan doesn't have the child access prevention laws. So if they didn't do anything illegal, then the government will have to show, prosecutors at their trial will have to prove

that they acted so recklessly, so beyond the pale that any other normal, average, reasonable person would do that a person would know that acting so recklessly would lead to someone's death. Would you agree that it's very rare for parents to be charged? This is very rare. And you are saying that in Michigan there is no, what kind of statute did you say? No child access prevention laws with regard to firearms. No rule that they have to keep guns locked up, ammunition separate, when there's a child in the house. For example, in California, where I live, in New York, in many other states, it's illegal if you have a child in the house or a child come visit the house. Troy, you certainly are not suggesting that because there's not a black and white statute

that they still did not know that the other students were in danger after reading that note and knowing he had access to a brand new Sig Sauer? By that same argument, Nancy, the school officials should know. Are we also going to charge the school? The school officials didn't know we had a gun. But they knew that there was something that was so alarming that he was searching ammunition that they thought to take him out of class temporarily and then put him back in the class. You're artfully avoiding my question. I didn't ask you about them. I asked you about the parents. And by your avoiding the topic, I assume that you agree with me. You know, the district superintendent informed the parents and staff members Saturday that the parents never told the school he had access to a gun. What do you make of that, Troy? I don't know how the gun was stored inside the house. There were some, there are some reports that the gun was locked. Maybe the kid found a key and got access to it.

We don't know yet what measures the parents took to secure the firearm. We don't know whether they handed it to the kid on a silver platter or whether somehow the kid went around some sort of system that the parents had in place. We do know that within minutes of the shooting, the father called 911 and said he thinks his son might have a gun. I mean, the father made that act. That's an act that the father did that shows that he knew it was very likely that his son had that lesson. He made a 911 call to that effect. Alexis Teresha, where were the parents found exactly? They were found in a commercial building. It was actually an art gallery is where they were found.

But they were hiding in a locked room inside the gallery. Hiding in a locked room inside a gallery. Now, I understand the owner of the gallery claims he didn't know anything about this. He did. You know, well, he's the artist. I believe someone else owns the whole building. He's an artist. He said that when they called him, they said, we are getting death threats. Can we come there? And he said, yes. He says this was before any charges were filed against him. They were there. He left. He said he expected them to leave.

He didn't know anything about the charges that were filed. The victims, Hannah St. Juliana Tate, Meyer, Madison Baldwin, Justin Schilling, as young as 14 years old, gunned down dead in their school. Then seven other students were shot and lived. A 17-year-old girl, gunshot wound to the chest, critical. A 14-year-old girl, gunshot wound left chest and neck. 17-year-old girl, gunshot wound to the neck. 14-year-old boy, shot. 15-year-old boy, gunshot wound to the left leg, 17-year-old boy, gunshot wound to the hip, a 47-year-old teacher, gunshot wound to the left shoulder. I want to go out to special guests joining us, Dr. Jeffrey M. Jensen, Clinical Emeritus Professor, Pathology, University of Michigan. Dr. Jensen, thank you for being with us. With the murder victims, Hannah Tate, Madison, and Justin,

how long do you believe they would have been aware after the shooting of what was going on around them? Typically with gunshot wounds that are fatal and either striking an aorta or heart or lungs, a person has conscious pain and suffering for at least 30 seconds or so. It takes that long for the oxygen content to decline enough for the person to go into a coma. And so typically an individual will have about 30 seconds worth of oxygen and consciousness in a gunshot wound that basically spares the head and neck area.

And I would like to comment that even wounds to the extremities are particularly potentially fatal if they strike major arteries and that there is not immediate medical care available. Such as the femoral artery and the leg, of course, the jugular vein, obviously. And I noticed, Dr. Jitsensen, that several of these victims were shot in the neck. And I wonder if the perp was trying to shoot them in the head and got them in the neck. But there are shootings, for instance, when you take a GSW gunshot wound to, say, your chest, and you don't bleed out immediately, but your lungs slowly are filling up with blood. And you're spitting it up.

It's coming out your nose and your mouth. That takes a little bit longer to die, Dr. Jensen. Yes, if the wound itself is not fatal, but then there's blood or hemorrhage that accumulates into the airways. The person could die from prolonged asphyxia or lack of oxygen because of the obstruction of the airways. And imagining as young as 14, Hannah lying in the floor, knowing somewhat what's happening around her, everybody running and screaming. Her parents aren't there. Nobody's there with her.

And she dies in the floor of the school like that. Why? In the last hours, lawyers for the mom and dad of Ethan Crumley demand evidence against them in court be thrown out. What exactly happened? Even though Jennifer Crumley's attorneys are asking the court to dismiss three victim witnesses saying their testimony is irrelevant to the charges against the parents, they say it would only confuse the jury but a judge has ruled that two eyewitnesses to Ethan Crumbly's shooting spree will be allowed to testify at the upcoming trials in addition the jury will be allowed to see video footage of the rampage the witnesses are the teacher who was shot in the arm and assistant principal who encountered the shooter in the hallway.

The judge ruled, quote, all evidence offered by parties is prejudicial to some extent, but the fear of prejudice does not generally render the evidence inadmissible. The judge did set some limits, however, regarding the eyewitness testimony. Specifically, the judge will prohibit the witnesses from testifying about any aid they gave to victims or discussing any emotional trauma they have endured because of what happened. The eyewitness testimony will focus only on the identification of the shooter and the gun that was used in the massacre, the location of the weapon, and any observations made by the witnesses about the shooter. Ethan Crumbly, who was 15 at the time of the shooting, pleaded guilty and is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole. His parents have been jailed now for more than two years and are facing separate trials, which

should begin later this month. It's not been determined who will go on trial first. If convicted, they face up to 15 years in prison. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.