Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Evil female SERIAL KILLER poses as DATELINE NBC PRODUCER to lure victim

Episode Date: January 2, 2020

Convicted killer Pamela Hupp is already spending life in prison for the 2016 murder of Louis Gumpenberger. She's now being investigated for a possible role in the 2011 death of her supposed best friend, Betsy Faria.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Ashley Willcott: Judge and trial attorney, anchor at Court TV Cloyd Steiger: 36 years with Seattle Police Department, 22-year homicide detective, author of "Seattle's Forgotten Serial Killer: Gary Gene Grant"   Dr. Bethany Marshall: Beverly Hills Psychoanalyst Dr. Michelle Dupre: South Carolina Medical Examiner & author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide”  Anne Emerson: WCIV ABC 4 Charleston reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Pam Hupp calling police, insisting someone is breaking into her home. So how does this relate to another woman dead, another woman stabbed 55 times. How is this connected to an elaborate plot to nab $150,000 life insurance and frame a guy? There's so many dead bodies, it's hard to keep up with them. You've got Betsy Faria, her best friend, with a life insurance policy, stabbed 55 times. You've got the death of the mom, and you have the death of the so-called intruder, Louis Gumpenberger. Let's just take one piece of the puzzle at a time. How did we get here? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm not getting in the car with you. No. What's your address? Get out. Get out. Get out. What's the address you're at? Hello?

Ma'am, can you hear me? What's the address you're at? Is that real? You are hearing Pam Hupp on a 911 call saying someone is breaking into her home. So how does this relate to another woman dead, another woman stabbed 55 times? How is this connected to an elaborate plot to nab $150,000 life insurance and frame a guy? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Let's just take one piece of the puzzle at a time. Let's start with more of that 911 call. Pam Hupp calling police, insisting someone is breaking into her home. Where are you at?

F*** us. Who broke into your home? I don't know. I'm in here. I'm in here. Help. Where is he at right now? I'm outside. I'm going outside. Come on. Hold her. Hold her. The fire alarms are going off, too. I know.

Is he inside? Yes. Is he a white male, a black male? He's white. He's white. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. He tried to get me in my car and I ran into the house. He tried to take you into his car? He tried to take you into his car?

Help! Hurry! Hurry! We have officers on the way, ma'am. Where are you at right now in the home? I'm in the garage. You're in the garage? My car. He's still in the house. Okay, can you run to a neighbor's house? I don't think there's anybody home. I'm going to stay here. I have my dog. I have my puppy. You have your puppy with you? Yeah. Okay, you're hearing more of that 911 call, and it just gets curiouser and curiouser, as they said in Alice in Wonderland. That's them, not me.

I know it's supposed to be more and more curious. With me, WCIV ABC4 Charleston's Ann Emerson. Ann Emerson, I don't know. She didn't sound too upset to me when she said somebody's breaking in at the beginning of that 911 call. She just gets more and more adamant nancy as she gets she goes along she's got a story and she's sticking to it and and this was uh an extraordinary way for her to to to set all of this up and get this going she thought she told the 911 uh dispatch she had somebody who was breaking into our home, and she is going to do what it takes to get them to believe it.

But, no, she sounds very calculated. Well, as a matter of fact, listen to this. What's your name? My name is Pam. Pam? Yes. Where are they? Is anybody in the home with you besides the subject you broke in?

No, just my dog. Just you and your dog? I have my dog with me. Help, please. Where are they? We have help on the way. Let me know when you hear them. Okay.

Okay. I should have an officer pulling up. Do you see him? It's a non-white car. I don't know. It's just a white car. It's going to be one of our command staff. Is he in a uniform? He's here. He's here. Okay, I'm going to let you go. Talk to the officer. Okay, it just gets more curious.

Last thing I want you to hear, Ann Emerson, is our friends st. Louis Fox 2 Chris Hayes August 10th 2016 Carol Alford was on the porch with her dog when Pam Hupp drove by it was captured on this surveillance video she waved I was like okay wave you know thought maybe she was new in the neighborhood and she drove down the street came back and she just pulled up behind my driveway and she just sat there and she was just staring at me Alford remembers bizarre questions THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SHE DROVE DOWN THE STREET, CAME BACK AND SHE JUST PULLED UP BEHIND MY DRIVEWAY AND SHE JUST SAT THERE AND SHE WAS JUST STARING AT ME. ALFRED REMEMBERS BIZARRE QUESTIONS STARTING WITH, DO YOU

BABYSIT? AND ENDING WITH AN OFFER TO MAKE A THOUSAND DOLLARS IF SHE'D GO WITH PAM TO DO A 911 SEGMENT FOR THE SHOW DATELINE. IF I HELP HER, I CAN'T BRING MY KEYS, MY CIGARETTES, MY CELL PHONE OR MY WALLET BECAUSE THE

PRODUCER DOES NOT LIKE CLUTTER. ALFRED TOOK HER DOG INSIDE AND GRABBED TWO KNIVES. SO I PUT folding pocket knife up this sleeve and a kitchen knife in the front because I'm getting ready to get into a stranger's car that I'm pretty sure like 99% sure is up to something illegal. Alfred did not even have shoes on when she got in Hup's car. Yeah I was this close to her rubbing elbows. I had the one handING TO MY DAUGHTER, I WAS JUST TALKING TO HER, THIS CLOSE TO HER, RUBBING ELBOWS. I HAD THE ONE HAND IN MY

POCKET, LIKE, ON THE HANDLE, BECAUSE IF I HAD TO, I WAS COMING OUT THIS WAY WITH IT. AS HUP TALKED ABOUT WHERE THEY WOULD BE SHOOTING THE NEWS SEGMENT, ALFRED'S GUT TOLD HER THE KNIVES WERE NOT ENOUGH PROTECTION.

I'M THINKING TO MYSELF RIGHT ABOUT NOW, HMM, BEST EXCUSE I CAN COME UP WITH TO GET OUT OF THIS CAR. WE GET TO ABOUT HERE, AND to get out of this car. We get to about here and that's when I told her that, you know, I got to go back and get some shoes, lock my door because of my husband's dog, whatever. Right here is where she turned around at and took me back to my house. Okay, here's just a tip for the future. If you feel like you have to hide knives on your body to get in a car with someone, don't get in. With me, an all-star panel, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV.

You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Cloyd Steiger, 36 years Seattle PD, author of Seattle's Forgotten Serial Killer, Gary Jean Grant at cloydsteiger.com, renowned psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany Marshall at drbethanymarshall.com, the medical examiner for the state of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. But now I need Ann Emerson, WCIV ABC 4 Charleston, to explain to me how this woman, Pam Hupp, is driving around posing as, I think she said, a Dateline NBC producer enticing people into her car. How does that fit with her obviously fake 911 call when she shoots a, quote, intruder? Okay, fit them together for me, Ann Emerson.

This is such an elaborate hoax, and she's pulling from her resources, honestly. You know, she's been under a lot of scrutiny with Dateline. She knew that they did these kind of elaborate sort of scenarios of reenactments, and she saw a way out. She saw a way to not only use what she knew about television to be able to start, because they had already been covering her and what she was up to.

And now. Wait, wait. Why are they covering? Why is. Look, if you see Dateline NBC picking through your trash. Okay. You better call a defense attorney right then. Because they are experts at sniffing out a crime. All right?

So you're telling me and Emerson WCIV that they're looking at her for some other crime and she figures out a way to what? Get out of it all? She's looking for a way to pin that crime on and keep the heat off of her. The scrutiny was starting to start, was already coming in her direction, full force for a crime that had been committed five years prior, and this was her best friend. I guess you're talking about the death of Betsy Faria. That's correct, yes.

Well, as a matter of fact, speaking of the death, the murder of Betsy Faria, listen to this 911 call. Lincoln County 911, what is the location of your emergency? Okay, ma'am. Hello? Hello? Hello? Yes, I need you to take a couple deep breaths so I can see what's going on. What is the address where you need this to come? Okay, who am I speaking with?

Russell, what's going on there? I just got home from a friend's house, and my wife killed herself. She's on the floor. Okay, Russell, I need you to calm down, honey, okay? I need you to calm down, take a couple deep breaths. We're going to get somebody on the way there, okay? What did she do? Do you know? She's got a knife in her neck and she's cut into her arms. Okay, okay. Calm down, honey. Is she breathing at all?

No. She is not breathing? No. I'm here. I'm here. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Russell, is there anybody that we can call for you? Okay, Russell, take a't. Where's my mom?

Okay, Russell, take a couple deep breaths, hon, okay? Okay, what is your mom's name? My mom is Lucy. I'm sorry, I can't understand you, hon. Lucy. Lucy. And what's her last name? Maria.

How old is your wife? My wife, she's, she's, she's her last name? Faria. How old is your wife? She's 42. 32? 42. 42? Okay, and you're for sure she's not breathing right now? No, she's dead. Okay.

What is your mother's phone number? You are hearing a highly distraught 911 caller that's russ faria now his wife is betsy faria but right then he's talking about his mom mrs gumpenberger okay ann amerson i got so many dead bodies and plots and twists and turns let's just start where every investigation starts. Who died first? Well, it was Betsy Faria, December 27th, just a couple of days after Christmas in 2011. She's found stabbed 55 times in her Missouri home. And from there, we get twists and turns and why's and who was involved and who she was involved with. So let me understand. Betsy Faria, age 43, is found stabbed dead. What did she have, 55 stab wounds?

Was that right? That's right. And they found the weapon in her neck. It was still in her neck. It was very grisly, extremely grisly. Who at that same crime scene, is there another dead body? No, there's not a dead body at that crime scene. From what I understand, it wasn't until a couple of years later when the mother of a woman named Shirley Newman has passed away.

There's no concern except that this poor elderly lady had fallen over a balcony. She turns out to be Pamela Huff's mother. That's the second one, and that's in 2013. Okay, so we've got Betsy Faria stabbed dead with a knife in her neck. We've got Pam Hupp's mother dead from falling over a what? A railing, a balcony railing from the third floor. They say that she just fell out, but of course, there are so many inconsistencies. And the work that's been done on a journalistic level to try and recreate that fall has been, I mean, you have to just say it's impossible. I mean, the way they showed how that. Like what?

She'd have to be like an Olympic gymnast to get over that rail. Okay. Who is Lewis Gumpenberger? Is that another dead body? That is. That's number three. And this is where we start wondering, do we have a serial killer? Let me guess. Is that the quote intruder? That's the intruder. A 33-year-old man. And I'm saying that with big quoteys. Okay. Who's Louis Gumpenberger? He's a 33-year-old man. He has some mental deficiencies from a serious car accident that he was in many years earlier.

Childlike is how he was described by his family. And he ends up dead in Pamela Hupp's home. Hold on. I've got dead bodies coming out of my ears. Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, Anchor Court TV. You can find her at ashywilcott.com. This woman, Pam Hupp, everybody around her, they just die. They fall over railings.

They get stabbed 55 times and nobody knows what happened. And then one gets gunned down because he's in her home. Then you've got a live victim on her porch when Hupp drives up and tells her she's a Dateline producer and to come along with her if she wants to make some money. But she can't bring her car keys or her cell phone or her wallet because producers don't like clutter. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I know I'm just painting with a broad stroke, but there's no doubt in my mind she killed all three. Bodies are piling up around this woman. Nancy, have you ever known somebody where their whole reason for living is some kind of nefarious purpose? And that's all they think about.

Maybe it's a man who continually preys on women because he wants to get money from them, or a con artist who will approach certain people at work so he can get them to put life insurance policies into his name. Some people have one singular crime in mind, and everything around them is organized around that crime. Let's think of a pedophile where all they think about is children. So maybe they hang out at the school bus stop. Maybe they become pastors. Maybe they become teachers. I think what we're going to learn about Pamela Hopp is she had a singular motive that drove her life. This motive was like an obsession. But what was it? What was she able to get from all of these victims? I think that if you follow that trail, we will understand the psyche of Pamela Hupp. You know, I'm listening again to Russ Faria calling 911. And I'm telling you, I'm just from what I heard, that's real. He has nothing to do with

this. His anguish, and I've never met the man, but I'm telling you, his anguish is real. Take a listen to what the medical examiner says about Betsy Faria stabbing death. Listen to this. Two days after Christmas, 2011. Russ Faria called 911, said he thought his wife Betsy killed herself. I don't know how else you do this to me. A medical examiner said she was stabbed 55 times. Her arms nearly severed most of the stabbings after she was dead.

A crime of passion. When you stab somebody over 50 times, it's usually a crime of passion, a husband or wife. I felt right away it was this was Russ the immediate suspect the husband Russ Faria for the first time you're hearing and seeing evidence like the 911 tapes and interrogations over 25 times over 25 times and they're not done yet. They're still counting. The major K-Squad questioned him for days. God is in this room with us right now.

And God knows that I did not do this. He did not back down. I did not do this. I did not do it. You are hearing the husband, Russ Faria, defending himself. But I want you to listen to, tell me what you think about this, 911 call. Listen to his voice. Oh, my God.

I wish he'd do this to me. I wish he did. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I don't want to see you. Rattle, they're on the way, hon, okay? They'll be there shortly. Is there anybody else there in the house with you? No, no. There's nobody else here.

I don't want where he's at. Russell, take a couple deep breaths, honey. Well, I don't know about you, but I don't know how. If he's an actor, he deserves an Oscar because that sounds real to me. But according to her family, according to Betsy Faria's family, he had about 150,000 motives for murder. Russ's motive for murder did not come out, but Betsy's family believes he did have motive. Betsy's sister told me that she believes Russ found out that Betsy was making life insurance plans. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Russ's motive for murder did not come out, but Betsy's family believes he did have motive. Betsy's sister told me that she believes Russ found out that Betsy was making life insurance plans. Tell me about some of these plans that she was making. She was planning on making some videos to say things to her daughters during milestones of their lives and also parcel out the proceeds of her life insurance at those same milestones. You know, X thousand dollars when one graduates from college, you know, 10,000 here to buy a car, that sort of thing. So the insurance proceeds was more about leaving a lasting legacy, that the money would be used for a positive, lasting memory. Right. Let's back it up, guys.

Just then, though, you were hearing from our friends at Fox 2. That was reporter Chris Hayes speaking with Robert Patrick. To Ann Emerson, WCIV, ABC4, Charleston. Betsy Faria's murder was so brutal. What can you tell me about the crime scene? And what does it tell us about her killer? Well, you know, the crime scene was in Betsy Faria's house. And basically, to get stabbed 55 times, they say that she was also stabbed after the fact.

She was stabbed in the neck. There was a weapon found in her neck. They found all of these indications that it was obviously a brutal, a grisly crime, but they certainly were setting it up control. The interesting thing, though, a couple of interesting things. They found some slippers, and this is one of the pieces of evidence they really used to go after Russ Maria, her husband, with this. And that was a pair of slippers that were found in the closet, and they had blood splattered on them. After they really started looking at those slippers, and a lot of people had put their two cents into this, those slippers didn't make sense and were not working with the evidence.

But for whatever purposes, those were the slippers that helped convict him the first time around. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst at Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, what does the crime scene tell you, especially the post-mortem attack? Betsy's arms were almost severed. Well, it tells me that the perpetrator was trying to make it look like a crime of passion. And remember, all of the dead bodies in our story have in common some very elaborate, dramatic ruse to lure in the victims, right? Hup tries to get somebody sitting on her porch to get in his car. Hup has the 911 call where she says an intruder is in her house. Now we have one of Hup's best friends who's terminally

ill, stabbed multiple times, her arms almost severed as if it's a crime of passion. It makes me wonder if there's some crazy obsessed person wandering around out there who has some motive for Freya's death, but wants to frame it as if her husband killed her. Betsy Freya stabbed 55 times, her husband immediately becoming the prime suspect. She's found dead in her home just two days after christmas and small town missouri troy missouri her husband russ finds her body in a pool of blood when he comes home from game night with friends he calls 9-1-1 he believes his wife had killed herself because of her cancer prognosis she had spoken of suicide in the past because of the cancer he sees slashes on her wrist and a kitchen knife sticking out of her neck he had no idea according to him that she had been

murdered he says everybody loved betsy she was so positive she made a smile all the time. He says, Ann Emerson, that he spoke to her at 5 p.m. that day. He says she told him Pam Hupp was giving her a ride home. Was the husband ever prosecuted for her murder, Ann? He was absolutely prosecuted and sent to prison for three years. Russ Faria was convicted of killing Betsy. Pamela Hupp stayed out of that fray because there was enough investigation that was going on around Russ Faria because there are a lot of people who said their marriage wasn't perfect. Everything wasn't fantastic. So there was just enough conversation going on during these investigations that they kept looking at Russ Faria and they were not looking at Pamela Hopp, who is the one that actually dropped her off at the house. He goes to prison for three years, and a new trial is ordered because there's an incredible piece of evidence that comes into play that was never allowed to go in front of the jury. And this is,

you know, I think when they kind of done a little Monday morning quarterbacking on this, can't believe the jury didn't hear. It's hard to believe they didn't hear this piece of evidence that would have just sent all eyes going straight towards Hupp. And it didn't. And what is what is the evidence? It was a $150,000 life insurance policy that Betsy Faria had signed over to her friend Pamela Hupp. Well, as a matter of fact, based on what Ann Emerson, WCIV, is just saying, I want you to hear Fox 2 reporter Chris Hayes. Pam Hupp was the beneficiary of a $150,000 life insurance policy paid out after the stabbing death of Betsy Faria. A Lincoln County judge did not allow a jury to hear about Hupp's financial windfall

or the fact that Faria's life insurance policy was signed over into Hupp's name just days before the murder. A jury then convicted Faria's husband, Russ. In the court record, Hupp first claimed she was made beneficiary to help Betsy's daughter. Now Hupp is changing her story, saying in this newly filed temporary restraining order, the money belongs to her. Now another judge is stepping in.

A St. Charles County judge just granted this temporary restraining order against Pam Hupp or anyone acting on her behalf. They're prohibited from removing funds from their bank accounts or selling their O'Fallon, Missouri home. To Ann Emerson, WCIV, ABC4 Charleston, what can you tell me about newly released recordings of Hupp's phone conversations? She has documented her conversations with her husband, Mark Hupp, in prison methodically. This is a woman, I'm not a psychologist, but boy, does it seem like she's building a case for herself as she goes through as a woman in control, as a woman calculated. self-control and her image. It's remarkable that she keeps on going back to how she is protecting other people in her life. The coolness of the whole conversations that she has is that really, really speaks to her ability to orchestrate all of these different scenarios that have been going on and she just doesn't let up

um it's there's a lot of money in her mind that she can't this is part of how she's playing this out and she's she understands life insurance policies she worked in the business of life insurance companies she knows how these things work and this isn't the only life insurance policy that she could gain from if this person died. I mean, her mom. To Chloe Steiger, 36-year Seattle PD, what about these newly released phone conversations? What are they and what do they show? Well, she's having recorded jail conversations, talking to her husband, and he seems to not understand why she would take an

alfred plea or basically plead guilty and and she said things like oh i just wanted to spare my family an ugly trial what innocent person would plead out to a murder just to spare their family from an ugly trial it's ridiculous and she's so calm about it and everything and i'd like to speaking of calmness i want to go back to the 9-1-1 calls to juxtapose her to that of russ feria when russ is calling 9-1-1 you were right he's distraught he can't even give his mother's name but when pam makes a 9-1-1 call she's all distraught and screaming until she says is anyone with you and she says almost conversation oh i have my dogs with me she calm again. That's not the way it is. You're either hyped up all the time or you're not.

And so she's obviously feigning that call. It was just, it's just unreal. It's a great call for a prosecutor. There's so many dead bodies. It's hard to keep up with them. You've got Betsy Faria, her best friend with a life insurance policy, stabbed 55 times. The husband gets the fall on that and goes to jail. You've got the death of the mom and you have the death of the so-called intruder, Lewis Gumpenberger.

Ashley Wilcott, she agrees to an Alford plea to, quote, save her family a trial. What's an Alford plea, Ashley? First of all, I think she's crazy like a fox. And then second, an Alford plea, Nancy, is when for future crimes, the guilty plea cannot be used against the defendant, right? So she's saying, I'm not going to admit my guilt. I'm going to not say that I did it, but I will enter an Alford plea. And the issue I have with this is in this case, I think she's trying to do it so it cannot be used against her for these other acts. So, Ann Emerson, what does she say in a nutshell on the recorded phone calls? Well, she says that she's not doing it to save her family. She doesn't want her family

to suffer through any more than they have to. She's kind of throwing it out there to her husband. Her husband, Mark Hoppe, who's been talking to her throughout this whole ordeal, is stunned from what we understand. He's stunned into silence because he didn't expect her to say an Alford plea. It's actually, from what I understand, pretty uncommon to do something like this. But now the things are starting to line up that, well, now if she does this, not only does she not have to, that information will not be possibly put in for maybe if Pamela Hupp's case gets reinvestigated, as of course it's going to be now, or her mother's case being reinvestigated. This can't get brought up.

But also, she just avoided the death penalty in Missouri. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pam Hupp drives all over St. Charles County looking for so she could execute the person while they were on the phone with 911. Okay, that is her attempt to take blame off herself. How was it supposed to work, Anne, in a nutshell? Well, she has figured out a way to get that scrutiny off of her. She now looks like this victim of someone who's trying to hurt her. And that person, she actually is trying to put it back on the husband, who has now been released from prison, acquitted for the crime of killing his wife. Now they're wondering who's killed Betsy Faria. And Gothenberger becomes her fall guy

as now this has turned into an elaborate hoax that Russ Faria, her best friend's husband, who's been acquitted, is now trying to come after Pamela Hupp. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, this woman, clearly a serial killer, Pam Hupp, allegedly takes the life of a complete stranger, Louis Gumpenberger, in some crazy attempt to frame the husband for killing his wife, Betsy. How diabolical is her plan to throw police off her trail? Nancy, she has the mentality of a serial killer and more.

I mean, if there are three bodies in succession with each other, that's serial murder, right? I think, first of all, there's something about killing people that is very delightful for her and gives her a sense of power. I think, secondly, like a serial killer, she trolls for her victims. I mean, we cover all the time these serial killers where there's almost one person who got away. The woman who was sitting on the porch, got in her car, and then got back out is the one who got away, right? Because she potentially would have been murdered. Unlike serial killers where the motivation is usually sexual sadism, her motivation was a life insurance policy.

And in order to get the life insurance policy, she was highly manipulative. Even on those jailhouse phone calls that were recorded, she's trying to manipulate her own husband. What's interesting, though, is she in some ways, as Ashley Wilcott says, she's crazy like a fox, but in others, she's very stupid, like most criminals. She has lack of cause and effect thinking. She has no insight into how she appears to others. She actually thinks she's kind of low functioning as well as clever and manipulative. You know, the suspicious death of Hupp's mother, Shirley, I don't really buy to you, Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, that she fell from her own balcony. What would you expect to find?

Well, Nancy, I would expect one thing. Typically, balconies are too tall for you to fall. So I would really want to see that crime scene. I'd want to see how tall she is. I'd want to see where the balcony is. And then, of course, we have to look at the injuries. A fall from three stories, you are going to have massive injuries, massive broken bones. And where she falls and how those bones are both broken are also going to play into this. To you and Emerson WCIV ABC4 Charleston,

tell me about the death of Pam Hope's own mother. And why would she kill her own mother? Well, you know, one thing about this crime scene is they, when they sort of reenacted it and you could see sort of the actual scene after it had happened, the top railing, just to put it out there, that top railing was still intact. In fact, it looks like somebody, and they actually showed how someone could kick those railings and get the same level of damage to the railings as if what they were saying originally that that she had actually gone through the bottom part of the railings without touching the top railing so you have that inconsistency right there that's so hard for to understand but why did she go after her mom well if she is as ruthless as they allege, then she was looking for money and there

was a life insurance policy there as well. Now, did she actually bank out of that life insurance policy? That I think is still up for question because I've seen reports that she actually didn't make any that much money off of the life insurance. But we don't know what happened behind those closed doors with her mom. What did her mom know? What did she not know? We also know that St. Louis County Chief Medical Examiner Mary Case changed the manner of death from Pam Hupp's mom from accidental to undetermined. That's a big deal. Hupp's mother, Shirley Newman, found dead below the balcony of her senior apartment. Two police investigators

and Case's colleague deemed it an accident. But then they take another look after Hupp fatally shoots an unknown mentally disabled man in an elaborate plot, to divert attention from herself when she was being investigated for that fatal stabbing of her friend. I don't know how she thought that would throw off cops because somebody dies in her home, but to Cloyd Steiger, how do you believe that authorities could figure out that Hupp's mother, Shirley Newman's death, was not an accident. When I see the pictures of that rail, I think what death investigator would look at that and say, yeah, that could happen. I don't know how much this woman weighed,

but it took a lot of force to knock out those lower vertical posts in that rail and to go underneath that and fall three floors, I would have been skeptical just looking at it. And you would think even a patrol officer would go, what? I don't think that's right because it doesn't look like that could happen. So I'm surprised they, as quickly as they did, called it an accident instead of undetermined from the beginning. I'm glad they're looking at it more, but it just, you know, it just doesn't.

Well, I mean, isn't it true? This woman had arthritis. It doesn't. Well, I mean, isn't it true this woman had arthritis? It doesn't make sense, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Shirley Newman had arthritis. And I find it very difficult to believe she could just leap over that rail at a senior home and die. Well, first of all, if you have lived that long a life and you're not suicidal, there's no reason you are going to jump off a balcony that railing is high someone had to have picked her up and thrown her over apparently she had ambien in her system as well i don't know how that plays in but i will say i i once treated a

female patient who was obsessed with the life insurance policy that her mother had gotten so she came to therapy to implore me to call the mother and give the money to her. She actually sent a letter to the local police department saying, as if it was from her mother, saying, I am so sorry, I took a life insurance policy from my husband that was meant for my daughter and I didn't give it to her. So I know it's a little convoluted, but the mindset of this patient was that she stalked the mother for the money. So I would imagine Hupp had a long history of stalking all of these people from whom she was

trying to procure life insurance policy. I've got something to stop everybody in your tracks. In a videotaped interview before the first trial of her friend, Russell Faria, remember he got framed on his wife's murder? Hupp was discussing the possibility that defense lawyers for Russ would try to blame her. And she told a detective, and I quote, my mom's worth half a million that I get when she dies. This is in a recorded interview. If I really wanted money,

there's an easier way than trying to combat somebody that's physically stronger than me. I have a million dollars, including 10 grand life insurance and about $300,000 of other investments plus other assets. Ann Emerson, there's a motive right there for killing her own mother, Shirley Newman. Hello, Ann. It sure is. It absolutely is. And when she is starting to think about these life insurance policies, this is what she does for a living. This is her expertise. She's been writing life insurance policies and working for these companies for years.

And there's even some evidence that she forged her name on a couple of life insurance policies way back when. So now you're, you've got these allegations that maybe she under, she's, she's a smart lady and she's looking at her mom saying, wait a minute, I'm right. There is more out there. There are more ways for me to. So how was it, Ann, Ann, how was it that she got Betsy Faria's life insurance should not have gone to Betsy's family well you know that's a whole complicated story in itself when she had her sign over her life insurance policy she gained her trust she gained her her adoration and said I will take care of your kids. I will make sure that they get the money they need when they need it.

There was a lot of supposedly concern about whether or not Russ would, you know, bring that in. And why did she take an Alford plea on, uh, Lewis Gumpenmeier's murder? She took an Alford plea so that she didn't have to put that evidence towards another trial if she ended up getting in trouble for what happened to Betsy. Exactly. Exactly. Explain that, Ashley Wilcott. The Alford plea specifically cannot be used against you. In an Alford plea, the defendant is not admitting guilt, Nancy. That's the key. They are not saying that they did it, but rather they're deciding, okay, it's more advantageous for me to enter this plea to get through this, to deal with it, than to go to trial.

But the advantage of an Alford plea is it cannot be used against a defendant in any other crime. Another question. The plea deal in the Gumpenberger murder takes the death penalty off the table when she took that Alford plea on Gumpenberger, the mentally ill person. But what about when she's tried for Betsy Faria's murder, Ann? Will she face the death penalty? She could. I mean, that's a totally different trial for what we see. I mean, yeah, she might get off for one but she did not necessarily but now the evidence is is is not as strong because because of the alfred plea she's been

able to get some of her this evidence off of the table so if it goes back to trial um she certainly is setting what do you mean evidence is off the table. Well, she has, she's admitted guilt without actually having to, to deal with it. It's not something that can be readmitted into evidence. Okay, hold on just a moment. To Ashley Wilcott,

on an Alford plea, when you enter this Alford plea and you say I'm guilty, well, actually, you take your sentence, but you don't say I'm guilty. The facts in the Alford case, I believe, can still be brought into evidence. Just your plea cannot. I would agree with you. The facts in that case can be brought into evidence against you in

other cases. I completely agree with that, but not the fact that you've entered any kind of agreement or plea or admission, or it's not an admission, but that you've entered a plea in that case. We wait as justice unfolds in the brutal murder of Betsy Faria. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.