Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Evil Genius: Serial killer 'Son of Sam' to walk free?

Episode Date: July 11, 2018

The man who terrorized New York with a series of "Son of Sam" shootings insists he's a changed man and ready to be freed from prison. David Berkowitz killed 6 and wounded 7 others in 1976 and 1977, but he professes to have freed himself from Satan's control and to have found God. Nancy Grace looks at the case with private investigator Vincent Hill, New York psychologist Caryn Stark, and Los Angeles defense lawyer Troy Slaten in this 3rd installment of her Crime Stories "evil genius" series. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. today at pimagazine.com. Use this show's promotional code for your special discount at pimagazine.com. Subscribe today. Use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, channel 132. It started out as a typical Friday night. We drove to 159th Street and 32nd Avenue. Basically, we started making out, and like two minutes later, the car exploded. All the windows blew out of the car. Son of Sam. Three words that strike fear in the hearts of everybody that's read a newspaper or gone on the Internet in the last 20 years. You'd have to be living in a cave or under a rock

not to know of the brutal reign of Son of Sam, also known as David Berkowitz, a prolific killer. Son of Sam, also known as the.44 caliber killer, a serial killer that we know is guilty of eight separate shooting attacks. It all started in the summer of 1976 when the crimes were perpetrated with a bulldog revolver killing six people wounding nine others the victims increasing the body bags piling up and the son of sam eludes the biggest police manhunt in the history of the city he even went so far as to leave letters mocking police and promising more murders. But now, even after a guilty plea on multiple charges, is the son of Sam, one of the most

prolific serial killers in U.S. history, set to walk free with a parole hearing? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. First of all, I want you to hear in his own words, the son of Sam in a CBS interview, talking about his childhood. Boo hoo. When I was about four or five, I learned that I was adopted. And of course, I had a lot of questions. You know, my dad and mom, you know, well-meaning, told me that my mother died while giving birth to me. I think now, looking back in retrospect, it caused a lot of guilt and conflict within me.

I didn't understand what drove me to be so self-destructive, hand-destructive, to always have thoughts of suicide. I was obsessed with dying because I felt that I needed to be punished for somehow causing my mother's death. My parents were in a lot of pain and anguish. They tried as best as they could. There were times when I seen my parents break down in tears

because they saw that I was just so out of it sometimes, such a problem. And, you know, I was just a kid. But in school, I got into a lot of trouble. It fights and just being disruptive in the classroom. My mom had to go there so many times because I was in trouble one way or the other. And the school officials told her that you really need to take your child to a child psychologist. So they made arrangements for me to see a child psychologist, which went on for two years. And I would sit there for an hour and deal with her, which I hated. It was torture. hold on just a moment here we've got troy slayton

with me high profile la defense attorney karen start renowned psychologist joining me out of new york and private investigator former cop vincent hill troy slayton i their son of sam in his own words and i can only hope the parole board members hear that because he is trying to make me feel sorry for him regarding the death of his mom. And I do feel bad about that. But he goes on to detail how he's been a problem causing trouble ever since he was a kid in school. All right. That's not helping, Troy Slayton. He's being honest and truthful with the parole board, Nancy. Now, look, if we believe in the rule of law, then we have to respect the court's decision, which was to not give him life without the possibility of parole. But he was granted the possibility of parole.

So the system is working and he's getting a chance to go before the parole board, be honest, tell them where he is. He's been in jail, in prison for over 30 years, and it's time to show that he has potentially been rehabilitated. Rehabilitated. You know, the body count and all of the other shootings where people were injured. I'm not even remotely convinced this guy has rehabilitated himself. Karen Stark, New York psychologist, renowned mental health care worker. Karen, what did you tell me he has now renamed himself? He's no longer calling himself the Son of Sam. He's calling

himself the Son of Hope, Nancy, because he feels that he represents hope. That's rewriting history, the Son of Hope. What do you think, Karen Stark? You heard Troy Slayton say, Son of Sam, David Berkowitz should get parole. Well, I feel like he hasn't really learned anything. He says that he's regretful. And yet, if you read interviews with him, he's still blaming the media for exaggerating the crimes and engaging the public to make it much worse. How could it possibly be worse than it was? He's classic anti-social personality, Nancy. So he has no conscience. I don't see how that could possibly change, even though he's doing these reported good works while he's in jail and has converted.

He's a born-again Christian. You know what, Karen Stark, I appreciate him claiming he's a born-again Christian. I really do. Vincent Hill, private investigator, I recall the first time I handled a huge arraignment calendar. It was about 150 to 200 newly indicted felons. And they all came to court for an arraignment hearing and they saw us wearing a cross. Well, the next week, all the ones in the jail, which would be about half of those, about 50 guys came over and they, many of them had gotten a hold of yarn and had, I guess, knitted huge crosses that they then hung around their necks trying to get me to give them a lighter

sentence. So if he's a born-again Christian, power to him. But that's between him and the Lord. That has nothing to do with him getting out from behind bars. So, Vincent Hill, what do you make of the rehabilitation of a serial killer? Yeah, Nancy, I can't tell you how many guys found Jesus when I would arrest them and send them away to prison. That is usually the norm. But listen, this guy terrorized a city that was already known for violence. I mean, look at New York in the 70s. It was already known for

violence, but he struck terror and fear and his victims. I think he had some mommy issues because they were women with long, dark hair. And you heard him talk about how his mom died during childbirth, which we found out later not to be true. So that stuff doesn't go away mentally, you know, whether you find Jesus. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Vincent Hill. Vincent Hill, stop the presses. Did you just say his mother did not die during childbirth?

Nancy, it was found out later that, you know, she was seeing this guy who was married. You know, she got pregnant and he's like, listen, you you're not going to keep this baby. You're not going to give him my name. So I think the die that childbirth was just a lie. Here is David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, talking to CBS about the shootings. Thought I was doing something to appease the devil. I'm sorry for it, but I really don't want to talk about it anymore. Appease the devil? No, I was, at this time, I was serving him. You know, I was serving him. I feel that he had taken over my mind and body and i just surrendered

to those very dark forces i regret that with all my heart but you know that was like 40 years ago and i understand that it was a demonic thing and uh you know i just opened myself up for some very dark forces to come in and i can't you change that. I look at that in disbelief. I can't believe that happened. I look back. None of it makes any sense. It doesn't make any sense at all. I was under strong delusions. That's what happens when you come under those powers. You're under strong delusions. You know, you look back and say, what the heck happened? That was just mental darkness. I was serving Satan. Okay, does it never end with this guy?

Vincent Hill, private investigator, former cop. You know that son of Sam admitted at some point, his defense at the time was that a dog named Harry, who belonged to his neighbor Sam, told him to commit the murders. He later admitted that was a lie. And here he is lying through his teeth saying that he was serving Satan. He admitted at some point that the whole dog talking to him, the devil talking to him through a dog was just a hoax. It was just saying anything to try to get off. And he's still running with that after he's admitted it's a lie.

I mean, Vincent, why should I believe now he says he's rehabilitated and should get out if he's still lying about the darn dog? Yeah, I don't know, Nancy. I mean, my dog ate my homework. I mean, let's be clear. This guy has some serious psychological issues. He's got mother issues. He's got issues of dealing with what he saw as reluctant father figures throughout his life,

which is why he picked the victims. And the victims were couples sitting in cars that reminded him of his childhood. And that rejection, Nancy, does not go away. You know, this guy never changes. Troy Slayton, renowned L.A. defense attorney. He's lying again about the dog and the devil. So why should I believe him at a parole hearing? Because he's been a model.

Didn't you just say he's telling the truth, Nancy? He's being honest. He's not being honest. Nancy, he has been a model prisoner. According to all of the jailers, according to the chaplains, according to everyone at the facilities that he's been at, he has been a model. He's helped other prisoners. He has graduated college. He has done everything that has been asked of him for nearly a lifetime, over three decades. And if we believe in the system, when most jail systems are called Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation,

then by all accounts, he appears to be rehabilitated. Well, let me correct you on one thing. I don't think that the jailers are saying anything about how great he's been. I think he is saying that he has been great behind bars. I don't know that that's coming from the warden or anybody else, but Son of Sam, a known serial killer, speaking of all his, the tales that he spins. Take a listen to son of Sam in his own words, talking about his newly discovered religion. I have strong faith in God. I believe that the

Lord is carrying me through this. I think that if it wasn't for my faith in Christ and my belief, I probably would have given up a long time ago. I have a lot of guilt over what happened, a lot of remorse, and those things are always on my mind. Even as I try to remain upbeat and cheerful and positive, I never forget where always, I never forget, you know, where I came from and what my situation was like some four decades ago. People that were hurt, people that are still in pain, suffering loss because of my criminal actions. And I never forget that, that sometimes weighs very heavy on me. Yeah. uh it's uh it's a pain there that really doesn't go away but by the grace of god i'm looking to overcome that the lord forgives even

the worst of offenders and he can he can make your life new he can give you hope he could use you even if you failed many times even if you've done bad things, there's still hope for you. There's still forgiveness for you. And that's the message I always carry forward. You know, back to you, Troy Slayton, L.A. defense attorney. He was given multiple 25 years to life sentences, six, and they were to run consecutively. That means one after the next after the next. Therefore, he would be doing about 180 years behind bars minimum. If you take 25 times six, and that's giving him a bonus of several years, 25 to life. So why should he get out now? And I'm happy that he believes he's been forgiven

by our Holy Father, and maybe he has, but that's between him and the Lord. That does not mean that we have to open the jailhouse door and let him walk free just because he's been forgiven. That means, you know, maybe he'll get to go to heaven. I don't know about that, but I know this. This guy does not need to walk. Nancy, his attorney reports that every single time that he visited him, the staff at the correctional facility would gush about what a model prisoner he's been and how appropriate and compliant and helpful he's been. That's funny because I don't see them quoted anywhere but by the defense lawyer. Well, I'm sure that the parole board can call any of those witnesses. And so, yes, he did get consecutive life sentences, but they were not without the possibility of parole. And so the law is working here by giving him an opportunity to be evaluated by a parole board, by a civilian

parole board who can look at what he's done and listen to his story and see if he's shown remorse, which he has. He's admitted to his crimes. So he was caught dead in the water. He admitted after the state had created a case that would have proven him guilty and he would have it would have been probably life without parole. He pled on these. That's why he got life with the possibility of parole. I mean, he pled because he was busted. So, Nancy, the state made a deal with him and they now you want them to renege on their deal no i want him to do a sentence that six consecutive 25 years you know what take a listen to this this is robert violante who describes being shot by son of sam david berkowitz who now wants to walk free listen we decide to drive

to one of the uh as they call it, a lover's lane. We got out, and we went into the park. When I walked to the swings, I saw who I found out later on was Berkowitz. But then I didn't pay no mind, just figured he's just some guy hanging out in the park, you know. So we go onto the swings. But but now Stacy turns to me and says, Robert, you know what, I'm getting a little nervous. Why don't we go back to the car? I went back into the car.

Now we're sitting there a couple of minutes, and we're just talking, you know, kissing a little bit and talking, and that was it and then in five minutes later is when everything happened when I got shot I woke up and I couldn't see anything I was totally blind I was totally you know full of blood I couldn't see Stacy sitting right next to me. I heard some moaning coming from Stacy. I said, oh, my God, oh, my God, we've been shot. The bullet totally destroyed the left eye

and most of my right eye. I kept asking for her every day, and they kept saying, oh, I kept asking for her every day. And they kept saying, oh, she's going to be OK. She's going to be OK. Meanwhile, she died 18 hours after we were admitted right into the hospital. I was very guilty for years that Stacey was killed,

because she said, Robert, let's go. And I said, five more minutes. And in that five minutes is when we got shot. So if I would have left when she said, I probably would have, she would be alive today. It just consumed me, the guilt. Have you found it in here to forgive David Berkowitz? No. Not even for a heartbeat.

Not even for a second. Killers like that don't change. He can come up with this born-again Christian stuff and everything else. He was evil then, and he's still evil as far as I'm concerned. You know, just the way I feel, you know. And I think anybody in my position would probably feel the same way. You know, he ruins not just my life, 12 other lives, plus the family's.

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Get started. I was very guilty for years that Stacey was killed. Because she said, Robert, let's go. And I said, five more minutes. And in that five minutes is when we got shot. So if I would have left when she said, I probably would have, she would be alive today. A prolific killer, son of Sam, also known as the 44 caliber killer, a serial killer, David Berkowitz. To Vincent Hill, private investigator and former police officer, joining me, Vincent, when you hear the victims describing this and that guy, Robert Violante, describing how he was shot and the young girl he was with, a 19-year-old girl who was killed, by the way, he describes something that we often

shrug off, pure evil. A lot of people won't talk about it. A lot of people won't say it because they think it sounds crazy. You know what? I disagree. I think there is good and there is evil in the world. I really do. And I believe with all of my heart that the son of Sam is pure evil. And you know, our choice is for him to walk free on parole or to stay behind bars where he belongs. Do you believe, and in your practice as a cop and a PI, that evil does exist? Oh, absolutely, Nancy. Just like there's a heaven and a hell, there's definitely good and evil. And it exists all over this world.

And, I mean, I think the son of Sam proved it. And I think that victim said it best. Guys like that don't change. And this guy's been carrying this guilt around for almost 40 years, Nancy. And let's look at it a different way. What if the son of Sam, what if his main objective is to get out and finish that job, to go seek this guy out when he gets out of prison? Maybe not to kill him, maybe just to taunt him. But I think he's exactly where he needs to be and where he should remain in prison. You know, it wasn't just him.

There were so many other victims. Karen Stark, New York psychologist. Do you believe that evil exists? Oh, without a doubt, Nancy. I think that evil exists. I think that we're born with the capacity to be good or to be evil. And I think that as a psychologist, I mean, there's a combination of genetics and background that contribute to whether that comes out. And this is a guy who I can't really tell you that there is such a thing as rehabilitation. I don't care what they're saying about him in jail. It's easy in jail to come across as a good guy.

So, Troy Slayton, let me guess, you're the L.A. defense attorney joining us today, high-profile lawyer. Troy, I guess you don't think evil exists. Of course, evil exists, Nancy. In order to have good, there must be bad. In order to have good people, there will be evil people. Yes, of course there is. But we need to look at the facts. And the facts are that he has demonstrated over the past three decades a life of industry and sobriety. And the facts indicate that he, for all intents and purposes, has been a model prisoner. He's been a good person helping others

inside jail for the last 30 years. Well, here's how the whole thing went down. Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, was born to a young lady. Within a few days of his birth, she gave him away for adoption. Why? We don't know that, but she did not die in childbirth as he would want you to believe now. He was then adopted by a very loving family, Pearl and Nathan Berkowitz. And they were hardware store retailers, and they were childless and desperately wanted a child. And they adopted him. Almost immediately, he started causing trouble, causing trouble at school. He had high, high, high above average intelligence, but he lost interest in learning at an early age and instead became interested in stealing and starting fires.

And neighbors and relatives would recall him as being a spoiled brat and a bully. Because of all of his misconduct and his bullish behavior in the neighborhood, he joined the army. He served the U.S. and South Korea. He was discharged. He found his birth mother. And after a few visits, she told him the truth of his birth. But yet he still continues this fantasy of his troubled childhood because his mom died in childbirth. It's all a lie. He's still lying even now. If you don't believe me, listen to another of his victims that lived to tell the tale.

This is Carl DeNaro describing being gunned down. It started out as a typical Friday night. We drove to 159th Street and 32nd Avenue. Basically, we started making out, and like two minutes later, the car exploded. All the windows blew out of the car because it was a Volkswagen, which was at the time they were made airtight. So as soon as the bolt hit, the windows just shattered. So I had pieces of glass all over my arms. I didn't know I was shot, but I knew something terrible had happened. I told her, start the car. Let's get out of here. And as she pulled up in front of the bar, the doorman said, he goes, Carl, you don't look too good. He said, you know, sit down. And as I sat down, my head dropped and my long hair was

holding in all the blood from my head wound that I didn't know I had. Three of my friends drove me to Flushing Hospital emergency room, where they proceeded to pick out bone fragments and glass fragments from the back of my head. And basically, next thing I remember, I was in a hospital bed with my head bandaged up, and it was probably 9, 10 in the morning. When I got home, there was nothing. There was no skull. The skull was blown away.

It was probably a little bit bigger than a 50 cent piece. So the only thing protecting my brain from the outside world was a flap of skin. So I basically was housebound for three months until I had second surgery to put a plate in my head. I have limited vision on my right side below my waist. So unfortunately I walk into fire hydrants on a regular basis. But other than that, I've, you know, there's no residual effects. I'm happy to be alive. And I know, you know, I know a lot of people died from the same gun. So in that respect, you know, I'm just happy to be alive. And one of my favorite

sayings is life's tough, get a helmet. Wow. We are listening to a victim that lived to tell the tale, the victim of David Berkowitz, son of Sam. Vincent Hill, private investigator with me, Karen Stark, New York psychologist and renowned defense attorney out of LA, Troy Slayton. So Vincent Hill, he's going, son of Sam, David Berkowitz, going up for a parole hearing yet again. And many insiders believe he actually has a shot to walk free this time. Vincent Hill, explain how a board hearing works for the parole board. Well, they're going to look at many, many factors, Nancy. They're going to look at his behavior inside prison, you know, what he's done since he's been there.

I know Troy said he got a college degree. They're going to look at that. They're going to look at any disciplinary history he may have had in prison, which he may not have had any. I mean, if you look at this guy, without his.44 caliber, he's not a very intimidating guy to be in prison with some actual hardened criminals that kill people very personally in your face. So I doubt he's had any disciplinary issues in prison. So they're going to look at all of that and make that decision. But more importantly, they're going to listen to these victims who will be at that hearing so they can tell these stories that they're telling here in this piece that we're listening to. To Karen Stark, New York psychologist, Karen,

what does it reveal, the fact that he seemingly enjoyed killing and maiming? He would return to the scene of the crimes to kind of relive the murders and would even send taunting letters mocking the police before they actually captured him. What does that reveal about who he is? Well, it reveals, Nancy, that he has no conscience, that he actually enjoyed the experience. And one of the things that they find when they look at serial killers and murderers is that they have very low thresholds for excitement, that their heartbeat is low, and that they have to really, really raise it in order to

enjoy themselves. And one of the things that they enjoy is any kind of a thrill. And for a man like this, the thrill comes from killing. Now I'm just looking at some of the letters that he wrote to police Troy Slayton. He refers to himself as son of Sam. Sam, the terrible, the duke of death, disciple of hell, blah, blah, blah, blah. Please inform all the detectives working the case. I wish them the best of luck. Keep them digging. Think positive. Knock on coffins.

Really, Troy? I'm quoting from his letter. Sounds like somebody crying out for help, Nancy. Sounds like a serial killer. This was a person who, to the only family that he knew, the Berkowitz family that was good enough to take in a child who was essentially orphaned by being given up for adoption, was told that his mother died in childbirth. That's not necessarily a story that he made up. That's what he was told.

And then he finds out. He went and talked to his mother. He found her. He talked to her. Exactly. So he found out that the only family that he knew, the Berkowitz's, had lied to him. So he couldn't even trust them, the people who had taken him in and raised him. So he went on a killing spree.

He served his country in the army and saw probably some horrible things in South Korea, which could make anyone be disturbed. Disturbed, yes, but people come back from battle all the time and don't go on killing sprees, Troy. I mean, that's lame. So he did some horrible things. He admits that he did horrible things. He admits that he was overcome by dark forces, by evil, by whatever you want to call it. And then he's been a model prisoner. He's done every single thing that the government has asked of him. Troy, does the name Golden State Killer ring a bell? Think about it a moment. Right now, a former cop, D'Angelo, is connected to at least 12 murders, 50 brutal rapes, and 120 home burglaries because of a site like Ancestry.com where some relative of the killer had sent in their dna at some point so the police get super smart and they send in dna from one of the murders and they get a hit what's the likelihood that the same thing is going to take place with son of sam because you know, familial DNA is now allowed in New York thanks to the father

of a murder victim. And what would you think about the possibility there may be more murders connected to Son of Sam? That would pretty much blow his chances of parole, Troy. Look, if there are other uncharged crimes that the government has evidence of, then bring it forward. And let's hear it out in the courtroom. And yes, with the Golden State killer, they caught him. His time is up. Great. He'll go to trial and we'll be able to test the evidence against him. So if that, that's pure speculation to think that all of a sudden there's going to be more evidence against Berkowitz. If they had that evidence, we would certainly know about it now. Guys, we are talking about the son of Sam, David Berkowitz, who is now coming up for parole.

Let's hear a little bit more of David Berkowitz. Here he is posting himself on YouTube. Okay, well, my name is David, David Berkowitz, and I'm currently in prison doing multiple life sentences for a series of murders which happened back in 1976, 1977. I've been incarcerated for 39 years, approaching the 40-year mark, and my story really is a story of tragedy and triumph. It's a story of a lot of hurt and pain, but thanks to God, a lot of peace and forgiveness. And I've seen over the years many miracles that have happened in my life, in the life of some of the people that were hurt by this tragedy. And as a Christian in prison, I've seen God do many wonderful things in the lives of the prisoners here, reuniting them with their family members, helping them to deal with guilt issues, and all the things that I'm dealing with myself. So I've been there and done that and suffered along with them. But this story

is really, although there are some very sad parts to my story, I believe that it's a story of forgiveness and hope and triumph, and that ultimately whoever hears me speak now or watches this, that they will take away something that they never, some insight that they never knew before about childhood struggles, growing up overwhelmed with periods of depression and self-destructive behaviors as well as my adolescent struggles, as well as the good things that happened. Because I really had a life of growing up as a kid in the Bronx. I really had a life of adventure there and many good experiences as well as bad ones. So it's a bittersweet story. It's like a tale of two cities.

And so this is really what I want to share. And I really don't know how to begin except to say, well, I guess I'm beginning right now, come to think of it. But I'd like to begin by sharing some portions of some letters I received a number of years ago, back in 2001, 2002, from a woman who lost her daughter in the last of the so-called Son of Sam shootings. This young woman, Stacey Moskowitz, tragically lost her life in 1977. And of course, after I was arrested, there was tremendous hostility towards me from the people I had hurt in the past, to hurt in my time of ignorance. And I said, God, make a way for me to just let these people know,

whoever they are and wherever they are, how sorry I am for what had happened and how I pray for them and hope that as much as possible they can heal from this. Of course, no one ever fully heals from losing a loved one, especially losing somebody during a crime of violence. Nevertheless, that was always one of my highest prayers that somehow I could make peace with at least somebody from that time of my past who was tragic, was hurt greatly. And over the years, thanks to a, well, of course, it was God

that did this, but also I thank a journalist by the name of Maury Terry, who was used by God, I believe, to help me to reach out to this one particular person. This is Mrs. Moskowitz, Nisa Moskowitz, whose daughter, Stacy, was killed in that last shooting. And it was a dream come true because contact was made through some friends in Georgia who had been a Christian couple in Georgia who were friends of mine and reached out to her and established a friendship. And eventually I was able to write to Mrs. Moskowitz, to Nisa. She always wanted to be called Nisa. And so I was able to write to her and we developed a correspondence

and we even spoke on the phone on a handful of occasions. And it was a time of great healing and everything. And really this was a time of great healing and everything and really this was a miracle of God if you think about how miraculous this is it's not something to be taken lightly it doesn't happen every day where the mother of a murder victim would would forgive you know the person in prison but this is exactly what happened hope Hope and triumph. Hope and triumph. You know what, Karen Stark, I really can't really explain it being a crime victim myself. To hear him talking about his potential release behind bars, it actually makes my stomach hurt. And I wonder

if the other victims feel the same way. It's like a bitter taste in my mouth. They're dead. Their entire lives were plucked away from them as teens in a brutal way. It's like he went hunting for young women and he would find them and murder them and take great joy in it. Going back to the scene to relive the moment he killed them, taunting the police. I mean, that's why we have jail, to keep him in there and away from innocent people, Karen. I mean, this whole thing is very upsetting to me. Without a doubt, Nancy, and I'm sure that for you it triggers all your own memories and trauma that you went through. It's really hard to listen to him say what a tragedy it is that he's talking about something that he created. And it's as though he's not.

It's as though he's talking about another person, some tragedy. You don't get any feeling of authenticity, which doesn't surprise me at all because he can't be authentic. He has a personality disorder. Another issue I have, and you're the shrink, and I'm just a trial lawyer, is all the lies that he spends, the lies about his mom dying in childbirth to try to make us feel sorry for him, the lie about his upbringing when he had two loving adoptive parents that took him in and tried their best to give him a good life, the lies about, and he admits this was a lie, that he carried out in court where he claimed faking mental illness that the dog, Harvey, who belonged to

the neighbor, Sam, told him to commit murders. I mean, it sounds fantastical, but it was the basis for a mental incompetence or insanity claim at the time. And he engineered that lie to manipulate his lawyers, mental health workers, the courts, everyone. That's how he got his moniker, Son of Sam Killer. All of this carefully engineered to save his own skin. Karen Stark, I mean, why would we go out on a limb and let this guy loose? I can't imagine that we would do that, Nancy, and I bet it doesn't happen. Wait, I forgot to tell you something, Karen. When he was sentenced, when he was sentenced, he attempted to jump out of a window to get away. He was restrained, and he kept saying

over and over, Stacy was a whore. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again. Stacy was a whore. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again. Stacy was a whore. I mean, he murdered the girl. That's who he is in death. He's still calling her names. He's still attacking her, vowing he would kill them all again. And there's a chance this guy's going to be released, Karen Stark? I can't imagine it, Nancy. He won't be released. I would be amazed if he would be released. I know that, yes, we're supposed to have prisons be for rehabilitation. You cannot rehabilitate

somebody with this kind of mental disorder. He doesn't know how to feel regret. He can't change. That's an impossibility. I don't think that they know what else to do with him. But I wouldn't buy a single thing that he says. He doesn't really come across, even when you listen to him now, as somebody who has any sincere regrets or understand what went into that happening for him. I don't think we should feel sorry for him because he was so lucky that he was adopted by these people. And he shows classic signs of someone who has an antisocial personality getting in trouble when he was a kid, constantly bullying. All of the things that we know lead to this kind of a diagnosis. He belongs in jail.

Vincent Hill, when you look at his stack of lies that he's perpetrated on the system, and even after killing the girl, calling her at open court a whore, I mean, he didn't know her. He murdered her and then went back to revisit the scene to relive the moment he killed her, Vincent. Once a liar, always a liar, Nancy. And in my opinion for this guy, once a killer, always a killer. I've said it before, I'll say it again. He needs to stay exactly where he is. Well, you know, Vincent, I disagree with you on one thing. I think people can change. I do. I believe that people can see what they've? Why would I take that chance and risk him killing somebody else so he can have a new life? I mean, why? Well, Nancy, if you deny it to him, then you

deny to everybody. No, I don't deny to everybody because everybody is not a serial killer. So every serial killer who's granted the possibility of parole should not be granted parole under any circumstance. Right. Yeah. You're a serial killer. You stay behind bars if you don't get the death penalty. Yeah, that's't the deal. And the deal was not that he would not have the possibility of parole. The deal was that he would have the possibility of parole. And he has done every single thing that he is supposed to do. He has helped other inmates with mental health issues. He helped the chapel services. He has done every single thing that you could possibly do. And so you don't like the way that he sounds? You don't like his answers to the questions? No, I don't. You just don't believe anything that he's going to say? Listen, you know what, Troy? There's nothing that he could say that you would believe.

You can dress the devil up in a choir boy's outfit, but that doesn't change the fact that he's got a tail and horns. I spend a lot of time in my cell when I have free moments, but I'm not in the chapel or at work, whatever. I try to get some writing done, usually writing letters to individuals to encourage them, sometimes writing letters to churches and youth groups. I also have an online journal, riseandshine.org, which is run by a friend. I don't have internet access or anything like that. But sometimes I'll send my writings to this person and they'll put it online because they feel it touches a lot of lives. And people from all over the world actually read that. We've had visitors from the Middle East and Africa and China. It's really amazing that the site's been there for a number of years, since 2005 actually. And so I love writing a journal. Even

prior to that, I would send out some of my writings to friends and over time friends would come and say, David, you know, these things need to be in a book now I was just writing for enjoyment and also because these are things God put on my heart to write about certain things different subjects and or spiritual messages or whatever mixture of all these things and I and I my attitude was well if God wants me me to put these in a book form, I'll have to send somebody my way to do that because I have no idea how to do that. I never even thought about that.

Well, over time, another friend did find somebody who was a book publisher and approached me, a Christian man, and offered to put some of my journal entries into book form. Not for me to profit. I take nothing from that, but it was just to reach people with the writing. So I said, well, let the Lord's will be done. And a book called Son of Hope Prison Journal,

volume one was released, I think about 2005. Although the publisher kind of dropped the ball, it's not really available anymore. But I continue to write my online journal and I stay busy with that and just reaching people my parents made a home for me and I'm thankful I'm thankful for everything that I experienced that was good I experienced many good things in life people would know that because they just focus on the crimes and but you know I'm not going to allow my life to be defined by the crimes that happened during that very difficult time of my life when I was not in my right mind and

where I had other influences people influencing me too with the Satanism and things like that you know that was a period. I was at a vulnerable time getting out of the Army, and all my friends that I knew before I went into the Army had all got moved on, got married, so I was kind of like the odd man out. And I was just lonely and searching for my place in the world and fell into a lot of hard times. But I'm a survivor.

I mean, God has brought me all this way, and he didn't bring me all this way for nothing. And I believe that God had his hand on my life even before I was born. I may have been born out of wedlock. People make a big deal out of it. It's no big deal to me anymore, because as I said, I thank God for everything that happened to me,

because it's all worked out for the good in the long run but God has given me, God knew I was coming one day and he welcomed me into this world so even if my birth father Joe didn't want me God wanted me and so the story in some way has a happy ending. It's a happy ending. It's going to be over my dead body that I ever agree for son of Sam to walk free

and wreak havoc on innocent people like all the ones he's already killed. I hope the pardon and paroleole Board are listening now. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Did you know a recent law can leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the internet has created a dangerous new world. It's time you take back the power by using a new website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you

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