Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EVIL MOM SCALDS, KILLS tot-son, takes Lyft to dump tiny body in trash

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

Four year old Malachi's body was found in a dumpster after his mom claimed he went missing. She's now charged in his death. Nancy Grace dives into the heartbreaking story with Defense Attorney Darryl Cohen, Forensics Expert Karen Smith, Psychologist Caryn Stark, Medical Examiner Dr. Michelle Dupre , and Crime Online investigative reporters Dave Mack and Levi Page. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are told that a hundred volunteers have mobilized in the search for this child. He's four-year-old Malachi Lawson. Here's his picture. He was here in Northwest visiting his THE BOY WAS TOLD TO BE OUT THERE AND HE WAS NOT ABLE TO GET OUT. WE HAVE A 4-YEAR-OLD MALIKAY LAWSON. HERE IS HIS PICTURE. HE WAS HERE IN NORTHWEST

VISITING HIS GRANDMOTHER. HE IS ACTUALLY FROM EAST BALTIMORE. WE ARE TOLD THAT THE GRANDMOTHER AND THE BOY WERE OUTSIDE. SHE WENT IN THE HOUSE FOR SNACKS.

WHEN SHE CAME BACK OUTSIDE HE WAS GONE. POLICE WERE NOTIFIED. They were searching all evening. They had helicopters in the area searching. We were notified this morning to assist and we gathered about a hundred volunteers to assist in the search and we've been doing that ever since. Now the police have said that he's mildly autistic. Is that information that you were given as well? We've had conflicting information. We did find a credible source saying that that was not the case. He just had some speech issues. So what do you want people who are out there and out in the neighborhoods to do at this point?

At this point, if this child had some spectrum issues, he might not act like a typical 4-year-old would. He could just be sitting on somebody's porch. He could be maybe in a tree. We don't really know. But at 24 hours missing, we're obviously very alarmed and worried, and we want to make sure this child gets returned to his mother. You know, at a moment like this, you have to take and analyze every single word you're hearing because literally minutes count when a child is missing.

A 4-year-old boy at first thought to have autism, later to be believed with basically speech impediment. Four years old, Malachi Lawson, on the front porch with his grandmother at her house. She goes in to get a snack, comes back out, he's gone. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You were just hearing WJZ reporter Pat Warren. Where is Malachi?

Take a listen to our friends at WMAR. We checked the cemetery here. It's got a tremendous amount of wooded area with paths. We had 1015 guys in there checking each path. We checked Rastaner Plaza. We checked the Plaza nearby here. Has she? Klein is the vice president of

operations for Baltimore show room. He says city police called them this morning to help with the search and they immediately got nearly 100 volunteers. A lot of those are fathers. A lot of those are grandfathers. When you have a four-year-old child that is missing, defenseless, unable to defend for themselves, it struck a nerve. I'm a father of two young children and so when you hear about

a missing child, your gut reaction is to do everything that you can do to help. Councilman Yitzi Schleifer spent the day looking for Malachi. He says it was no surprise so many people pitched in. No matter what neighborhood they're from, everybody really comes together here in this district to look after one another, especially when it comes to a child. When they wrapped up, other agencies continued, like Baltimore Police, the FBI, and state police. If you see Malachi, call police immediately. He was last seen wearing a tank top, khaki shorts, black flip-flops, and bright blue glasses with braided hair. Police say he walks with a limp since he broke his femur when he was younger. I know you're hearing a police news report. That was our friends at WMAR2, Erin McPherson. But every word I'm hearing is like, I'm drinking out of fire hydrant because it's so

I'm trying to process how this is going to help me find them. And I just want to go to somebody really quickly to Daryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor with me in inner city Atlanta, now renowned defense attorney. Daryl, I don't want to rub you the wrong way. But, you know, when everybody gets in front of the microphone and starts talking about how we all came together and we all these people and we're going to have a vigil and we're going to light a candle. Maybe it makes me a bad person, but that just irritates me. It irritates me so badly because tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. All I can think about is, okay, bright blue sunglasses, khaki shorts, flip flops, four years old, has a limp. Where is he? Why can't anybody

find him? How did he go missing so quickly? Don't waste your time lighting a candle. Although I know that makes people feel better, it makes me feel worse because we're losing time. Well, as I see it, lighting a candle says he's dead. I don't see that. I see you've got to look for every little thing. You point out the sunglasses. That's major. Can you find those sunglasses? Are they on the ground? Are they somewhere? We're looking for clues. We're looking immediately for things that can help bring us to him as quickly as we can because of his age, because of the fact that he walks with a limp.

These are major things. Forget the families that come together. Remember the people who are looking and give them the major clues that they need. So if they see a child, they immediately look for the braided hair. They look for all the little things that by themselves mean nothing, but put together, they mean everything. Karen Starr, psychologist, everything he just said is right. But I still, I hate to even say it sometimes because I don't want to be thought of as being harsh or cold, but the candles and the flowers and the teddy bears, he's missing. And I appreciate the

love. I do. But I just feel like everybody needs to be out looking or doing something instructive to find the child. Every, I don't know, I feel like a bomb is about to blow up. Maybe I've been around it for so long, but literally minutes count. And I just, I keep looking back at the story of the grandma, and I'm not doubting the grandma. I'm not saying she's a big liar. But on the front porch, maybe it's because it scares me inside that this could happen to John, David, and Lucy. Maybe that's why I get so frantic and crazy. There you go, Nancy. That's right.

Explain. I think that for every parent, it's so frightening to hear. You know, you just can't even begin to imagine that that would happen to your child. And yes, every minute really does count. I mean, seconds are counting when you're talking about a child. The people who are out there with the candles and the teddy bears, they're doing it for themselves because they can't go looking for this child and they don't know what to do with themselves. So they have to have some kind of sign that they're aware that he's missing. But I think, well, they're two separate issues, actually.

Yeah, you know what? You're right. I think that's it. They're doing everything they can at that moment. So I guess they're trying in their own way to do something for Malachi Lawson. Not everybody can leave work and go look. Not everyone can leave home in the middle of the night and go look. Not everyone is a cop or running a group of canines. So they're doing what they can. And for that, I'm grateful. All I can do is analyze the facts with me right now. CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. Let me just start at the beginning, Levi, because every fact matters. Tell me, how did this little boy, four years old, with a limp, you know what that means

to me? Translation, he can't go far and he can't go fast. Okay, he's got a limp and everybody knows it. He didn't leave on his own and get that far if she just went in to go get a snack. Tell me what happened. Don't leave anything out, Levi. He was in the front yard near the front porch playing when the grandmother said that he vanished. And we know that he had a mother. Her name is Alicia Lawson. She's 25 years old. And she had a wife who is 40 and is the person that called 911 to report him missing. And this child was nowhere to be seen.

We know that the FBI was involved. We know that law enforcement immediately dispatched search dogs to search for him, and they detected no scent in this area at all. He was literally vanished without a trace. Okay, hold on, hold on, right there, right there. Karen Smith joining me, well-known forensic expert. I've worked with her many, many times on recreations, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. How is this translating in your head? Now, that bugs me

right there, that dogs are brought in immediately and they cannot pick up a scent. Yeah, that is bothersome. And you're dealing with Baltimore. That is a big city. And you're right. He had a limp. He couldn't go far. He was only four. He was just a little boy. So the first thing that goes through my mind is a snatching grab. Is he in a car? Do we have a description? Did anybody see anything? You know, this is a wide berth. Police are at a loss right now. If they're bringing in dogs, I don't know if they're suspecting foul play at this point, but that is a standard procedure. You're bringing in canines.

They have a nose that can smell a thousand times things more than we can. So you're doing a wide berth. You're sending out patrol officers all over the city in different areas. And you're just looking at gas stations for footage. You're looking at Walmarts, at McDonald's, at all these restaurants, anywhere where an adult would take a child. And I'm telling you, Nancy, this breaks my heart because this little boy literally vanished into thin air and the police are left with very, very little in the way of evidence for what may have happened.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have another night with a missing four-year-old. Malachi was here on this block in the 4500 block of Rogers Avenue with his mother at his grandmother's house when the mother went inside for something and when she came back he was gone. Volunteers joined the search for four-year-old Malachi Lawson as if he were their own. Since this is on your route this little boy went missing from right here in this block just yesterday. If you see or hear anything feel free to call me. Thank you. THE BROADWAYS. THE BROADWAYS ARE FULL OF PEOPLE. SINCE THIS IS ON YOUR ROUTE, THIS LITTLE BOY WENT MISSING FROM RIGHT HERE IN THIS BLOCK

JUST YESTERDAY. IF YOU SEE OR HEAR ANYTHING, FEEL FREE TO CALL ME. THANK YOU. HE WAS REPORTED MISSING FROM HIS GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE IN THE 4500 BLOCK OF ROGERS AVENUE IN NORTHWEST

BALTIMORE AROUND 3 30 YESTERDAY. STATE POLICE BROUGHT IN A CANINE UNIT TO AID IN THE SEARCH. BALTIMORE'S SHAMRIM MOBILIZED 100 MORE VOLUNTEERS. WE JUST DROP EVERYTHING AND Shamrim mobilized 100 more volunteers. And we just drop everything and we run. We hear a four-year-old's missing. We have bloodhounds that are searching the area. We have FBI, help from our FBI agents who are helping us going door to door, working with resources. Malachi's family this evening, his mother and grandmother, were not at home. Are they coming back this evening?

I think they're with the police. They're with the police. You're hearing our friends at WJZ. That was reporter Pat Warren. Now, I just heard something that caught my attention immediately. My head snapped up from the notes I was taking. I want to hear if you catch it as well. Now listen to Pat Warren. Now listen to Pat Warren reporting just 24 hours before. We are told that a hundred volunteers have mobilized in the search for this child. He's four-year-old Malachi Lawson. Here's his picture. He was here in Northwest visiting his grandmother. He is actually from East Baltimore. We're told that the grandmother and the boy were outside. She went in the house for snacks.

When she came back outside, he was gone. At that point, I believe police were notified. They were searching all evening. They had helicopters in the area searching. We were notified this morning to assist, and we gathered about 100 volunteers to assist in the search, and we've been doing that ever since. Now, the police have said that he's mildly autistic is that information that you were given as well? We've had conflicting information

we did we did find a credible source saying that that was not the case he just had some speech issues. So what do you want people who are out there and out in the neighborhoods to do at this point? At this point, if this child had some spectrum issues, he might not act like a typical four-year-old would. He could just be sitting on somebody's porch. He could be maybe in a tree. We don't really know. But at 24 hours missing, we're obviously very alarmed and worried, and we want to make sure this child gets returned to his mother.

Again, WJZ, did you hear that? My head nearly snapped off my neck. Yeah, they sounded a lot alike. But 24 hours ago, it was reported he was sitting on the front porch with his grandmother. 24 hours later, he's sitting on the porch with his mother. Did anybody hear that beside me? Because that is a very big difference. And I'm not going to bore you for too long, but I've got to recount when John David went missing, my son, who is now 11, praise be to God, they've made it this far. Lord, help me keep going with them and keep them safe

I will never forget as long as I live and it all started at the community pool okay I'm there as usual swimming fully clothed and um some mom came up to me in her cute little Lily Pulitzer outfit and starts talking about how she makes her own organic sunscreen. Okay, I'm looking at the clock because I know I've only got one hour before I have to get out of the pool and go to work wet and try to change clothes at work to get on the air and I'm feeling like the biggest loser ever because I guess I'm apparently rubbing cancer into my children's skin every day okay well you know the next morning I'm up with the children dragging them to babies are us warehouse to try to find organic sunscreen okay that's how the whole thing starts and I blame that mother every time I see her I just want to wring her neck. So I'm there.

And the shelves start down at the floor. And they go really, really high. And you actually have to get help if you want something up off the top. So I'm down there in all my glory with the twins. I'll scrunch down on the floor trying to find organic sunscreen. I'm talking. I can't find it. I'm kind of like crawling along the floor trying to go from this one to that one to that one to this one. I finally give up and stand up

turn around. There's Lucy. There's no John David. I had practiced this many times for fire drills. I picked her up like a football and we started running. I can still hear how those horrible crocs, giant bright neon pink Crocs on my husband had given me in his misdirection and running along trying to find John David. I went about three aisles. Finally, I screamed bloody murder, locked the doors. My son is missing. Okay, everybody looked at me like I was a space alien so I started screaming again long story short as you know we found him he had snuck off in his crocs which are silent and was on some other road trying to break into a toy okay so that's what happened but

if somebody now retold that story and said it was my mom who was there looking for organic sunscreen that is a big problem that's changing the story Daryl Cohen you know because you and I have had on different sides of the fence you had a defendant I had a target when they start changing their story or anybody changes a story, again, I'm not blaming the mom or the grandma, but when their story starts changing, I got a problem, Daryl, a big problem. I don't have a problem if it's a small thing, but mother versus grandmother, as opposed to yellow versus pink, there's a major difference. There's somebody or somebodies that are no longer telling the truth. They probably weren't in the beginning, but now it becomes blatantly obvious. So if they're

not telling the truth, is it mother? Is it grandmother? Maybe it's grandfather. Oh my gosh, now we know that their veracity, their truthfulness is gone. And we can no longer believe anything that they said. And that, Nancy, you're right, that is major. Well, I disagree with you, actually, because right now somebody asked me, what were John David and Lucy wearing on Halloween? Let's see, John David was a pickle. I now know that there is an icon in some game like Fortnite, maybe.

Pickle Rick, or maybe it's not for i don't know but he was the pickle he had on green sunglasses lucy was a banana she had on yellow sunglasses so this kid had on blue sunglasses so you say it doesn't matter if you say pink then you say yellow see to me that's something i would remember i would remember that Even that would drive me over the edge, much less saying he was with his grandma. Now he's with his mother. Now there may be a way to explain that because maybe they were both sitting out on the stoop. Maybe. But if they were both sitting out on the stoop and one left to go get a snack, that leaves one out there with the baby. So see, no matter how you slice that bread, half a loaf is missing. Something is way wrong here.

Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. I remember every night before I would go to work at CNN HLN, I would bathe the twins. And that was a special time for me anyway. I would teach them their ABCs, their one-two-threes. Lucy would only eat dinner in the bathtub. I had to feed her dinner in the bathtub. I would give her one full hour and John David one full hour, then I would actually go to work soaking wet. It was one of the happiest times of my life. And I guess that's why I gravitated to Emily Mason. Emily Mason, gorgeous young professor at a local college, Swainsboro, Georgia, East Georgia College. I traveled to Swainsboro to investigate her death, and this is what I learned. Emily was bathing her two little girls in the tub when someone came into her home, chased her from room to room. The last thing her little girls ever heard from their mother was mommy running, screaming

for her life. Those are their vivid last memories of mommy. She was brutally murdered. And you may ask, where was her husband during all this? Well, her husband, also a professor at East Georgia College, a P.E. professor, a P.E. coach, happened to be gone. He just happened to leave for a local Walmart or Home Depot or Lowe's. And in that short window of time, he comes home to find his wife dead in the home. The children, one was nonverbal, could hardly describe a thing. What happened to Emily Mason? Her story really has touched me. The mystery surrounding the death, the brutal death of this young mom, Emily Mason.

This Saturday, we will be Facebooking, Instagramming, and tweeting live throughout the episode. This Saturday, Oxygen, August 17, 6 p.m., Eastern, 5 Central. Please join us. Thanks, friend. please join us thanks friend crime stories with nancy grace welcome back everybody i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us we are discussing the search for a four-year-old little boy with a slight speech impediment and a limp all sorts of alarms were going off in my head when I heard he had a limp. Then the grandmother's on the front porch with the little boy, goes in for a snack, comes out, he's gone. Then it's the mother says she was there. To me,

the facts are getting murky. Then all the reporters are on the front porch trying to reach them and they're nowhere to be found. Now I know where they were. It is with a heavy heart that I stand before you. We have a development in the case of four-year-old Malachi Lawson. Last night, after extensive interviews with Malachi's mother, Alicia Lawson, she confessed that her son was not missing but deceased. She subsequently gave detectives the location of the child's remains, which were in the 5500 block of Hayden Avenue. The biological mother, Alicia Lawson, and her partner will be

charged with child neglect resulting in the death of a minor later this afternoon. The child's body has been transported to the medical examiner's office where an autopsy will be performed to determine the exact cause of death. It should be noted that the medical examiner's findings could bring about additional charges after a review from the state's attorney's office. You know, sometimes I can hardly take it in or feel like I can keep going. When everyone, the whole community, and I'm giving them H-E-double-L about lighting candles, but that's all they can do at that moment. They're doing everything they can do trying to find this boy. And the whole time, the mother, the biological mother, knows the boy is dead? Take a listen to our friend Pat Warren at WJZ 13.

Neither the cause nor the circumstances of four-year-old Malachi Lawson's death have been revealed yet, but police say that under questioning last night, his mother admitted his death. After a two-day-long search and investigation, this is the ending no one wanted. After extensive interviews with Malachi's mother, Alicia Lawson, she confessed that her son was not missing, but deceased. He was reported missing from his grandmother's house

in the 4500 block of Rogers Avenue in northwest Baltimore around 3.30 Thursday. State police brought in a canine unit to aid in the search, but Alicia Lawson's confession brought the search to a close was closed on Thursday, March 23rd. The search was postponed to 3 30 Thursday. State police brought in a canine unit to aid in the

search, but Alicia Lawson's confession brought the search to a close. She subsequently gave detectives the location of the child's remains, which were in the 55 100 block of Hayden Avenue. Lawson originally told police she

had left the boy alone on his grandmother's porch on North Rogers Avenue, and when she returned, he was gone. Investigators found Malachi's body in a dumpster with signs of physical injury. In a dumpster. In a dumpster. The baby boy was in a dumpster. Take a listen to our friend at WJZ, Rachel Minitoff. Alicia Lawson says when she woke up, she found Malachi, quote, ALICIA LAWSON SAYS WHEN SHE WOKE UP, SHE FOUND MALAKAI QUOTE, LAYING IN HIS BED IN A PUDDLE OF WETNESS. HE WASN'T RESPONSIVE AND SHE BELIEVED HE WAS DEAD. SO LAWSON CALLED A LIFT TO TAKE HER TO THE 5500 BLOCK OF HAYDEN. THAT'S WHERE

SHE PLACED MALAKAI IN A TRASH BAG AND PLACED HIM IN A DUMPSTER. FBI AGENTS OBTAINED INFORMATION FROM LAWSON'S CELL PHONE THAT SHE WAS SEARCHING FOR TRASH COLLECTION SITES THAT SAME DAY. ALICIA AND SHATIKA LAWSON ARE

BOTH CHARGED WITH 11 PUNCHES AND A HALF OF THEM ARE IN THE BED. ALICIA LAWSON IS IN THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL TODAY. ALICIA LAWSON IS IN THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE

HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL. SHE WAS TAKEN TO THE obtained information from Lawson's cell phone that she was searching for trash collection sites that same day. Alicia and Shatika Lawson are both charged with 11 counts, including involuntary manslaughter, child abuse, and making false statements to the police. When I hear that story, it literally makes my skin, I feel like cringing, straight out to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. What do we know about how police get this confession? So they started becoming suspicious when they found out that Alicia Lawson was on her cell phone and was making searches before the 911 call was made to report her son missing. She was making searches looking for trash sites, dumpster sites. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

What did you just say? She's doing searches for? The locations of where you could take trash and leave it, where the sanitation workers will pick up trash. She was looking for different areas in Baltimore of where to put trash. Okay, so they get that off her cell phone, searches on her cell phone. Karen Smith, this is telling me a lot. It's telling me that her story is such a lie. Number one, when you, again, let me go back to John David. I'll never forget when he was at a birthday party. He was four and it was at a professional grade basketball court

and he was running and he dropped what he had in his hand. It was like a ball or something. And he, he was losing it instead of trying to stop, he kept running after it. He fell. He went airborne, believe it or not. I saw it happen and hit his head. It came straight down on his head. I don't know how he did it on that hardwood floor. His head immediately, it was this huge thing on his head.

I immediately ran and grabbed him. We were on the fourth floor. I couldn't wait for the elevator. I carried him down four flights, ran to the car, into the emergency room. He ended up being in the hospital for four days with a major concussion to his head. I did not pause to consult my phone and start looking things up. So that's one dynamic. But tell me, how do cops go through somebody's cell phone and find things like this? Well, first of all, normally for a cell phone, you'd need a search warrant. In this case, it shouldn't be a problem.

You have a missing boy and you have an inconsistent story from the mother. Boom. When you go into a cell phone, the search history, the cookies, we all see the little flags for this site uses cookies. Well, fine. That's great. It doesn't matter if you accept it or not. Guess what? It's in your phone. It's in your computer. There's all kinds of data, timelines, timestamps, and websites that are in your computer. And it's very easy to find them. They're going to look at what time she did the searches, what the websites were, where she clicked over from those websites, and they are going to use that to spin her story and show that she had some kind of prefabricated

idea about what she was going to do. And of course, the major issue, you know, the phone, yes, I'm focused on that because it's forensic evidence, but this child, Malachi Lawson's little body. Joining me right now, special guest out of South Carolina, renowned medical examiner, Dr. Michelle Dupree, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, if you had to estimate, how many autopsies have you done in your life? Oh, wow, Nancy, probably over 3,000.

Gosh. You know, I don't even know how many cases I've prosecuted, investigated, taken to trial, or covered. I can't even count them anymore. And it never, the sting of a case like this never goes away from me. I don't know why. You know, just the other day marked the day of my fiance's murder. And it hurt so bad. It never goes away. Just like this, a four-year-old little boy, the mom taking him to a trash dump in a Lyft. That's uber seriously dr dupree they keep saying we're waiting on the autopsy waiting on the autopsy okay good good why why do i need to know we're waiting on an autopsy to know this mother killed the boy i mean all i need to know she took his body in a lift to the dump that she was searching dumps on her cell phone.

Why do I have to wait on an autopsy? First of all, you want to make it official. There are many things that an autopsy can tell us. One of the things that we look at is the severity of the injury. You always have to rule out, could this have been accidental? And I think from what we know now obviously not and so we want to prove that medically, legally and forensically and that can help with the charges that are brought against the perpetrator. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I just heard a lot of silence from the police last night. A lot of cars and tape out here. Justin Robinson lives in the complex where the child's body was found. They just messed up. A little kid that young, you know. It's hard to believe. Yeah, like this world is crazy out here. That's what I'm saying. Volunteers have been searching for Malachi Lawson as if he were their own. This was truly a community effort.

Unfortunately, it's with a heavy heart that we bring you this news about the death of Malachi and about now the arrest of his mother and her partner. 25-year-old Alicia and 40-year-old Shatika Lawson are in police custody. They are charged with neglect leading to death of a child. Additional charges may be determined. You may wonder why the reporters at WJZ 13 are saying neglect. Well, here's why. Charging documents say that on Thursday, August 1st, Alicia Lawson called police and said that her four-year-old son, Malachi Lawson, was missing. After an extensive search using multiple police resources, THE INVESTIGATION REVEALS THAT THE MAN WHO BATHED MALAKAI LOSSEN WAS MISSING.

AFTER AN EXTENSIVE SEARCH USING MULTIPLE POLICE RESOURCES, EVEN WITH THE HELP FROM THE STATE'S K-9 UNIT, MALAKAI WAS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. THE INVESTIGATION REVEALS THAT ALICIA AND SHATIKA LOSSEN WERE BATHING MALAKAI AT THEIR HOME

NINE DAYS BEFORE HE WAS REPORTED MISSING. THAT'S WHEN THEY NOTICED SEVERE BURNS TO HIS ENTIRE LOWER BODY. ACCORDING TO COURT DOCUMENTS, they could, quote, see skin from his body floating in the water after they pulled him from the bathtub. The couple decided to treat the wounds at home and did not call 911 or seek any type of medical help for fear that Malachi would be taken from them.

You know what, I wanted to pull my headset off because I knew what she was about to say. But I'm not because I would tell juries that they could not turn away from the facts, no matter what they were. That the mother put the child in water so hot, his skin peeled off in the tub. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, tell me what this means. There's a couple of questions I think we need to ask. One, if the water was so hot, normally a parent is going to test the water before they do this.

For that water to be that hot is extremely abnormal. Most water heaters don't go up that high. And to have the child in that water for that long to cause the skin to peel is very, very, very suspicious. You know, I'm just thinking again about the twins. When I run a bath for them, now they, this makes me cry, now they run their own, whatever. But when I would run a bath for them, I would feel it. Or even after I felt it, if they put their toe in it, they'd get back out because they don't. I like it really hot.

They don't. And we'd put in cold. But how could the child not jump out if it was too hot? None of this makes sense to me me and everywhere it takes my mind is worse than what they're saying and i'm just trying to figure out how the grandma went along if she did with that original story now we're hearing he was gone nine days straight out to dave mack joining me along with levi page daveackCrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave Mack, what can you tell me about cops testing the water in the home?

After they heard this story, they actually reacted the same way you just did. There's no way a mother could put a child in a tub that hot and keep them there. So they went to test it out to make sure. And when they turned the hot water on and filled the tub it never got past lukewarm leticia lawson claims that the landlord came and fixed the hot water heater so that it wouldn't get that hot anymore but again another lie and another unbelievable story and the cops are just testing everything out they don believe it, but that was the end result. You know, I just don't see how this can not be a murder because murder, one, with life or the death penalty, can be obtained in many, many different ways.

For instance, there can be premeditated murder where you, let's just say, poison someone over a period of time, like every morning, Jackie doesn't like the coffee that I make because it's instant and it's from Dollar Tree. No, she would not let her precious tongue touch that. She brings her own. Fine, but what if I poison it every day? Don't look at me like that.

Just a tiny bit every day until whoops, she kills over. That is premeditated murder. Guess what? There's more than one way to over. That is premeditated murder. Guess what? There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's felony murder, such as a mother who commits felony child abuse by putting their child in a scalding hot tub, and then the child dies as a result of that abuse. Maybe she didn't intend to kill the child,

just abuse it horribly. That's felony murder. That equals life or the death penalty. There's also abandoned and malignant heart. Let me just go on. For instance, when you drive through, let's just say a flea market at 90 miles an hour. Your heart is so abandoned to the risk to human life, you're deemed to have a black and malignant heart. That is also murder, and you get the life or the death penalty. So long story short, there's a lot of ways. This is not going to be pled down. I don ways. This is not going to be pled down. I don't see how this is going to be pled down. And to Karen Smith, forensics expert, Bare Bones Consulting founder. Karen, explain to me this whole death by hot water.

Well, I think you've used the legal term BS before, Nancy, and that's exactly what this is. I had a case similar to this, and the mother actually switched out the water heater and put the old one in the driveway. Didn't have trash pickup yet. So you know what I did? I went out and I dusted for fingerprints on that hot water heater, and there's a plate that you remove to get to the temperature gauge. And on that plate, guess whose fingerprints were on it? The mother's. Whoa, whoa.

If I had not given up cursing when the twins were born, I would say, damn, girl, that's smart. But since I gave it up, I won't say that. Go ahead. But, yeah, that's what I would do in this case is that plate and that temperature gauge, I would be dusting for prints. I would be processing it and finding out if the maintenance van's prints are on it, great. Go interview them. When did you change the temperature and what was it before you changed it? You take pictures of where it's set now.

Is there an area that has been worn down where it was set before? You look at these minutia. You look at these small details because they tell a story, Nancy. And the story in this case is the mother is full of garbage and she needs to be put away. To Levi Page, where I hate to even call her a mother because she does not deserve that, where is the mother and her partner right now? They're behind bars, Nancy. And what's so frustrating about this case is that she has a history with Child Protective Services. This child was removed from her care when he was one years old and placed with a foster mother. And I don't know what exactly the details are. CPS is not releasing it. But we do know that he had a

broken femur bone when he was younger. And from what I've read, that is a very difficult bone to break. And I'm wondering if it had anything to do with that. CPS is not releasing any details on why he was removed. Oh, yeah, Levi Page. I just bet they aren't because they're going to be busted for doing another bad job and another dead child on their hands. CPS. What a joke. Child Protective Services. I hate them. I hate them. I'm just sick.

The moment I heard he walked with a limp, alarms went off in my head. Here's the other thing I'm sorry about. The death penalty was abolished in Maryland. Well, I can say this. Mommy. Rot in hell. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Well, I can say this, mommy, rotten hell, Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.