Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EXCLUSIVE: 20-Y-O PFC Vanessa Guillen body found in dried cement, shallow grave. One perp shoots self.

Episode Date: July 1, 2020

Exclusive: The body of PFC Vanessa Guillen found along Leon River in Texas. A witness reports seeing a suspect struggling to move a pelican case into a vehicle. That case is it believed, was used to transport Guillen's body off Fort Hood. One suspect in the case killed himself after word of the body recovery was made. A medical examiner will make the official identification of the body. Joining Nancy Grace today: Tim Miller, Texas Equusearch Natalie Kwahan - attorney for Vanessa Guillen family Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, ww.drbethanymarshall.com Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet" Olivia Levada KXXV TV reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We are bringing you the very latest in the search for a beautiful 20-year-old private first class out of Fort Hood, Vanessa Guillen, the search has come to an end. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As we go to air now, the search for Vanessa Guillen, a gorgeous 20-year-old private first class Fort Hood, has come to an end. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to this. This is a sad update from Texas EquiSearch. They tell us they are suspending their search efforts for the missing soldier from Houston

after what was discovered there near the Leon River in Bell County. Tim Miller described it as a shallow grave. It's, you know, believed to be her pending positive identification, which I'll have to be sure. The search for Vanessa is now over. Texas EquiSearch is now calling off the search for missing 20-year-old soldier Vanessa Guillen after Army investigators found human remains in Bell County today. It appears as though there was a shallow grave. The rocks covered the graves and stuff.

And then, you know, for the three days after she disappeared, it rained. So everything just looked natural. You're hearing the voice of our longtime friend and colleague, Tim Miller of EquiSearch, who is with us now, along with an all-star panel of guests, including the attorney for Vanessa Ginn's family, Michelle Kawan, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills at BethanyMarshall.com, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, and special guest, KXXVT, first to crime victim turned crusader, Tim Miller. Tim, tell us in as much detail as you can, what happened? Well, Nancy, you know what we've found? You know, I've been

saying we found some evidence and we knew it was evidence connected to Vanessa's disappearance last Saturday. And the evidence was burned, but there was some of it that did not burn, and we knew immediately it was evidence. We actually dug early. It wasn't, but believe it or not, Nancy, it was only three feet away. And where the shallow grave was at, we were actually standing on top of little Vanessa's body. The Texas Rangers were there, the military CID cadaver dogs, and what a job they did on concealing her little body. And what had happened, we actually were starting to search again this morning, so we had members

up here yesterday, and we was out there at the scene until well after dark. And I was actually right at that scene just three days ago and really looking at some things, and I just knew she had to be somewhere close. What was it a gut instinct what led you you've been telling me that for days but what led you to say that? We got a lot a lot of information and a witness came forward and talked about something that he saw we found what this witness saw. Tim, can you tell us what he thought he saw? Well, you know what? I get my hands slapped. I don't care at this point in time as far as I'm concerned to solve it with. Somebody actually seen somebody in one of them big pelican cases,

about three foot by three foot, one of them big plastic cases, and he was really struggling to go ahead and get this into his vehicle. After witness came forward, they had enough information to go ahead and go to a judge, and so we actually got the phone records and went how long he was there and everything. Hold on just a moment. I want to tell everybody what you're talking about, a Pelican case. I have four of them. And on the front is a name, Nancy, John David, Lucy, and David. Usually really heavy plastic containers. And you can close it with a, you know, a lock that you just pull up to open and open it up. And, you know, you can stock it full of stuff.

And they come in really big like plastic treasure chests or plastic storage chests that you open and close and can latch to keep it secure. A witness exists that saw a man struggling to lift a Pelican case into his vehicle. And then we actually... Was that a yes? Yes, ma'am. And then we actually found a burn pile when we was out there, and probably about 40% of the lid of that Pelican case did not burn.

So when we found that, it was like, oh like oh my god she has to be in this area where was the burn pit tim miller uh right beside the leon river where we was concentrating on searching and uh and i was my biggest fear nancy was that he threw her in the river that maybe she would never ever been found so uh when you saw that half-burned pelican case, what went through your mind? We knew that it was going to take far more than a miracle for her to be found alive and returned home. Do you believe, Tim, that based on the evidence that we're learning now, let me ask a couple of pointed questions. The witness, if the witness is accurate, sees a man struggling to lift a Pelican case, a black, heavy-duty, plastic container with a lid into his vehicle. Where did he, the witness, see that?

On the base. On the base. On for good. How could the Army not figure that out? At the armory. At the armory. In the parking lot? In the armory.

Outside of where she came out of the armory, where was working? That armory? Yes ma'am. So she had to be either killed or kidnapped on the base. She was a very extremely physically fit. Isn't that true? Natalie Kwan, the attorney for Vanessa Guillen's family, she was in top shape. She's a private first class in the Army. She runs all the time. Viking and her superior sergeant called her in off her day off. So I think she would have had to have been dead when she was put in that container. Unless she was drugged, I don't see he could overpower her without making such a ruckus. Everybody around

him could hear what was the state of her physical fitness, Natalie. Well, she was super fit. Um, you know, like we said, she was, she was a big runner. She played soccer. She was, um, working out in the gym all the time. I have videos of her just lifting some serious weights. Um, she was going to go for a hike that afternoon too. That has to be either a struggle or, like you said, some kind of a weapon or some kind of drug. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are bringing you the very latest in the search for a beautiful 20-year-old private first class out of Fort Hood, Vanessa Guillen.

Her allegations that she had been sex harassed by her superior, the Army says they don't have any credible evidence of that. Well, you know what? I'm sitting here a thousand miles away, and I know about multiple statements she gave regarding that. Just hearing our friend who is with us right now, Tim Miller, who was in on the search and saw the evidence leading up to the discovery of Vanessa's body. Now take a listen to our friends at ABC 13 Houston. Killeen police are investigating after more remains were found near the site where the remains of a missing Fort Hood soldier were found earlier this month. Now these remains were reportedly found within walking distance of where investigators found the body of private Gregory Wendell Morales on June 19th. Now he had been missing from Fort Hood since August. His cause of death is under investigation but they have said they suspect foul play. The remains found yesterday have been sent to the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences in Dallas. The discovery was made as Texas EquiSearch was looking for another missing Fort Hood soldier, Private First Class Vanessa Guillen.

Guillen was last seen April 22nd on base. However, officials have not yet said if these cases are connected. Straight out to a special guest joining us, Olivia Lovato with KXXV-TV. Olivia, so now we've got the remains of another private, Wendell Morales, and remains near him that we were just hearing being described by our friends at ABC Houston. But that's not Vanessa. What the H-E-double-L is going on at Fort Hood? We've got two potential sets of remains, plus Vanessa Gimm is dead and buried in a shallow grave.

Obviously, evidence having been burned. What is going on at Fort Hood, Olivia? You know what, Nancy? I wish I could answer that question. What's going on at Fort Hood is not right. That's what I can say. Man, you're not kidding. Olivia LeVada joining me, KXXV-TV.

As the news broke, first, there had been a potential second set of remains near Fort Hood after the remains of Gregory Waddell Morales were found. He's been missing since last August. Then this second set of potential remains found near him. Now, Vanessa, as the news broke, is anybody asking at Fort Hood what you don't know about all the dead bodies around Fort Hood and you don't know about the sex harassment? And now this beautiful girl is dead and her mom and her sisters are out of their minds with grief. And they're what, twiddling their thumbs? I mean, look, my dad was in the military. I support the military.

But this is wrong. Is anybody asking questions of Fort Hood, Olivia? Yes, we are asking questions and receiving press releases. Press releases, like a piece of paper matters to me right now? I mean, to you, Natalie Kawan, you're the lawyer for Vanessa's family who is grief stricken. I spoken to her sister earlier and her sister so distraught in the search for Vanessa. How can they say they didn't know about the sex harassment? How can they send out a piece of paper as a press release? I don't get it. Well, let me just tell you this morning, I spoke to my client and I spoke to I contacted the base of attorneys there and I had it out with them.

I said, how is it that I find out and my client finds out information from the media before they find out from the CID and from the base itself. It is so pathetic that you have kept us in the dark this whole time. And it's funny how you guys have loose lips on the base, but you don't have the dignity to call my client and give them the information that they begged for for months. And I said, this is definitely, we are demanding a congressional investigation. I want everyone to be held accountable for this mishandling of a case and a soldier's life. Natalie, I'm so taken aback right now by what I think you just said, because that was a lot of information. Am I understanding that Vanessa's family found out that her remains had been found through the media?

That's correct. Nancy, could I break in for one minute? Tim Miller, I could just, I just can't believe that. Before Crime Online or any of us reported it, we asked, before we report this, does the family know? And we were told by an unnamed source yes the family knows tim miller i cannot believe the way the family i mean i'm going to circle back with you tim about all the evidence

but i just you know tim i was getting chills right now because i remember how i found out my fiance was in fact dead. He had been murdered. And it was not over the six o'clock news. I was told in person. And, you know, Tim, you've been there. You lost your daughter. God rest her soul. This is just the way this family has been treated from the beginning, having to beg for answers, the sister driving to Fort Hood trying to get answers and being stonewalled. I'm just sick about it, Tim. I mean, I know you.

You are a crime victim can you imagine what this family has gone through with all the BS they've been getting from Hood Nancy I was driving up here yesterday and Mayra called me up the sister called me up and she said Mr. Miller

what have you heard and I said Mayra has anybody called you and she said, no, please tell me what's going on. I'm choked up now is one of the saddest calls I've ever made in my life. And I said, I can't tell you exactly all the remains of me to ask me. No military, nobody had called her. She called and said, Mr. Miller, please tell me what is going on. I'm hearing stuff from the media. You know what, Tim Miller, I'm going to go to our shrink,

and I say that in a loving, caring way with me is a renowned psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of L.A. Dr. Bethany, I'm not just so mad I could chew a nail in half at the way Fort Hood has treated his family, but I'm also hurt because, you know, when my dad just passed away, I was so proud. The military was there, and they played taps, and they acted like they cared, and I believe that they did care. And to hear that this family has been treated like this by our own military, which we love and revere, is just a real kick in the teeth. Nancy, some small group on that Fort Hood base is more attached to their own culture of CYA, covering their asses, having an investigation under the shroud of secrecy,

finding out what's going on internally, then caring and having empathy for the family. It's a bad culture there. And I will say I was on several shows with Myra, Vanessa's sister. Myra is so brave. She is. She was there 24-7 pushing this story forward, coming on your show, talking about her sister, keeping this front and center. And the fact that they would not call her, it tells me again that they're more, this is a culture on this base where they are more attached to their own story, to protecting themselves and their own internal culture than they are to victims.

It's inhumane. It's heartless. It's leaving the family out in the cold. It's not respecting everything Vanessa did to give her life and service for our country. You know another thing, Bethany, there are times when you may be too numb to let yourself care, but in your mind, you know what is the right thing to do. They didn't have to care about the Guillen family. I can't make somebody care or empathize or sympathize. But you know what is morally right and wrong. And they knew they needed to call the Guillen family. And I'm hearing now they did not. Vanessa's sister is trying to call Tim Miller,

who's driving to the scene to ask him what happened. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are bringing you the very latest in an extremely heartbreaking case about, when I say gorgeous, I mean gorgeous on the inside and the outside of Vanessa Gim, just 20 years old. Why was her life worth nothing to Fort Hood? Why is that? Because she's a woman? And they're just not as important? I don't know. Is it because she's Hispanic? Is it because they thought she may file a sex harassment claim? Why? Why have they acted like this from the get-go?

You know what? That's a whole nother can of worms for us to figure out. And it's a can of stinking fish. I want to get back to what we know now um i am getting information right now olivia leveda kxxv tv that a member of the military at fort hood has just died by pulling a gun and shooting himself. Now, police are not specifying what case this guy is connected to, but, I mean, I'm not a rocket scientist, but I know that two and two equals four.

What do you know, Olivia LaVada? In the last hours, we learned a potential suspect has shot himself dead. Olivia? Yes. So, Nancy, this is everything we've been told so far. We know that U.S. Marshals and the Killeen Police Department, which is the city just outside of Fort Hood, they assisted investigators with the Fort Hood CID in one of their criminal cases early Wednesday morning today. Officials also say that just before 1.30 a.m., the officers located the suspect, and they say that the officers attempted to make contact with the suspect, and he displayed that weapon and discharged it toward himself.

As you said, at this point, we have not been told if this criminal case was in reference to Vanessa. Also to Natalie Kwan, the lawyer for the Vanessa Guillen family. Natalie, I think you may have information on the shooting as well. What do you know? Yeah, sure. I just got word that it is the suspect, Tim, that we suspected that shot himself. They have video of him shooting himself. And what happened was they called a bolo last night. He was seen running off the base. I mean mean this is breaking news right now as we speak seen running off base uh with shorts you know his army shorts on um and they chased him and then he shot himself in the parking lot i wonder if it was the same parking lot where he apparently kidnapped or put a dead body of vanessa guillem in a storage container joseph scott morgan with professor of forensic Jacksonville State, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and Tim Miller, Texas EquiSearch, who actually sees

the evidence is there on the scene when this young girl's body is found buried in a shallow grave covered with rocks. And that tells me somebody took a lot of time to cover up her body. How did they get away with that? How did they get away with putting her dead or unconscious body in a plastic storage container, leaving Fort Hood? How can that be? You don't even see what's happening in your own parking lot? How can we trust them to protect our country if they don't even know what's happening in

their own parking lot outside the armory for Pete's sake. Tim Miller, Texas EquiSearch, who has been searching for Vanessa from the beginning, the very beginning, out there in the rain, the heat, the mud, digging with canines. And he is a volunteer. Let me just add that on top of everything else. Tim Miller, it's amazing to me that you're the one out there and the Army is what, sitting with their thumb up their rear ends while you guys are doing all the work along with police? But that's a different issue. Tim Miller, please describe for Joe Scott Morgan the moment you observe what you saw, and I'm going to get him to analyze it forensically. Well, when we found the evidence, again, Nancy, that Pelican case, we knew it was

evidence. We dug under it and he tried to burn it. It's one of the trees that burned branches and leaves off the tree 15 foot high. Why nobody saw that. Wait, wait, wait. Tim, will you say that again? That's really interesting to me. Yeah, we found the burn pile and leaves and branches were burned about 15 feet up in the tree. So why nobody seen it? That was some big bonfire. Tim, how far away from Fort Hood is this?

26 miles. 26 miles. 26 miles. Okay, go ahead. And they mixed concrete. They actually had concrete. They mixed up concrete. They dug the grave. They put some lime in the grave.

They went ahead and poured concrete over top of it, put dirt over that, put rocks over top of that. No, they spent time. They spent time they spent time and i noticed that you're saying they and that tells me that there's more than one suspect yeah i mean who who whoever i'm you know i may have misquoted that no i think you're right actually yeah whoever did it now here's the next question and hopefully we'll know today but there's a question mark whether all of her body was found whether all the body parts are there so we say the search is over but we should know by the end of the day whether all the body parts are there and if not well guess what would

search is going to go on for for more body parts do you have reason to believe all of her body is not there that was a word late last night. That was a word late last night. You mean she was dismembered as well? I don't know. I don't know. I don't even want to think that that's possible. Good Lord, Tim.

I mean, people ask me this all the time, but I've got to ask you, how do you keep going when you see this over and over and over? Nancy, I'm real human. I have real tears. I lose a lot of sleep over this. At times I say I can't go on anymore. But you know what? When you get that call from the family and say, Mr. Miller, please help, how can I say no? I wish somebody would be on the other end of that phone if they can say no they're a they're a different person than me you know joseph scott morgan professor forensics and death investigator that is why so many lawyers so many police so many investigators just crack up or they just leave they leave it because it just

is overwhelming i was up half the night thinking about about Vanessa's family because I just keep hearing her sister's voice when we would talk about trying to find Vanessa and what a sweet home girl she was. Wanted to stay in, would come home every weekend, drive the three hours to get home. You know, I used to do that when I first started practicing law in Atlanta. I did it for years. I'd go home to Macon every weekend, just thinking about that. And her family now getting this news, and now I hear from Tim Miller, they had to call him. He's driving in the rain, and he has to tell them. You know what? Let me get away from the emotion, or I'll just totally get sucked down in that hole and can't get out. Let me talk about the evidence. That's something I can analyze. I can understand that.

You're hearing what Miller is telling us here relative to gravel or rock, that her body was buried, that the grave was prepped and that they utilize lime. And for those that don't know, you've probably heard about lime before in movies and this sort of thing. People will toss the, this white substance and it is white and, you know, it allegedly speeds decay. And so that goes to kind of a mindset what are you looking to do where you're looking to get rid of a body or at least in their thought they're going to get rid of a body and then they're going to cover it with rock why do you do that you're saying they because you believe that there are two suspects isn't that right jackie olivia levada aren't there two suspects? One's in custody, one shot himself.

I think that's a good question for Natalie. Yeah, you know what? You're right because she has some inside info. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, for those of you just joining us, we are giving you the latest in the discovery of the body of 20-year-old Vanessa Guillen. And with me, an all-star panel, but Natalie Kawan, the lawyer for Vanessa Guillen's family. Isn't it true there's more than one suspect? That's correct.

Sorry, that's correct. There's one in custody right now, and the other one just shot himself last night running on foot. Amazing to me, which is a whole other can of worms for our shrink, Dr. Bethany Marshall, to go into. I mean, as much as I love Jackie here in the studio, she said, hey, can you help me get rid of a body? Oh, no. But that aside, back to the evidence. Joe Scott, you were saying that they, the suspects, came

prepared with lime to decompose the body even more quickly to concrete gravel. go ahead. Yeah, and that they're going to prepare this and create almost like a vault, you know, kind of a hastily made vault. And why would you do that? Well, if anybody knows anything about digging a grave or digging a hole in the ground, one of the things that happens is when you disrupt that soil,

you create a natural depress well an unnatural depression and otherwise tightly compressed soil let's think and remind that soil out at fort hood that area out there it's it's kind of a clay-based sand and it's very very firm tightly compact and so it it's going to leave a hole. It'll be noticeable. So my thought is they had an awareness of this, Nancy. They're going to mix up concrete out there and try to form this over her body to encapsulate her body. But this is this is the thing that's kind of key to me, all this trouble, why dig a shallow grave in order to facilitate? Were they rushed, you know, in this? Were they just trying to get out of there? And my experience in having worked thousands of cases is that the lion's share of people in general public are not used to dealing with dead bodies. And so they get in the middle of this thing and they realize i guess you haven't lifted a dead body it's so hard to lift a dead body

no wonder the perp was trying to was struggling right there in the parking lot in front of god and everybody to put the pelican case tim miller's telling us about into the vehicle. And I want you to hear this because this is going to affect your analysis. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. Human remains were found this morning. This comes after someone was out here working on the fence. They said they saw the human remains or what they thought were human remains, and they called Bell County Sheriff's Department, who then came out here, contacted the FBI, and contacted Army CID,

who later confirmed they were indeed human remains. But here today is Bell County Sheriff's Department, FBI, Army CID, DPS, and Texas EquiSearch. Human remains were found right this close to the street, and DPS Sergeant Brian Washko spoke earlier about what led investigators back to this location that they searched on June 22nd. Throughout the investigation, throughout the one of the perps struggling to get a black plastic container in a car in a vehicle that container was found half burned tim

miller saw it and is there at the time of the discovery of Vanessa's body. But a civilian smells a foul odor. According to our friends, you were just hearing Nikki Latterulo at KCEN-TV. What about it, Joe Scott? Continue your analysis. Hey, yeah. You know, they showed up prepped, and they're going to dig a shallow grave. And what Tim was talking about is curious as well. After her body is deposited here, I don't want to call her her. I want to say Vanessa. After Vanessa's body was buried in this, you know, throw together that they had,

then they're going to go and, you know, Tim talked about a burn pile. They're going to try to burn this Pelican case. I've got a Pelican case as well. These things are robust, Nancy, as you well know, and they're meant, they're sealed in order to, you know, prevent water and moisture to get in there. So that again goes to the mindset of these people. They know that they're using this case in order to transport a body. Well, what are you going to leave behind the case? Well, you're going to leave behind trace evidence. So they had awareness of this.

Why are you going to go to all this trouble to burn this valuable case? Well, because you know that it's two and two together. If you show up with this thing in your possession, you know, the cops are going to examine it. So that, again, goes to motive. But getting the body off post. Now, I'm an old soldier, Nancy, and I do know this about the Army. And I learned this when I first went in at 18 years of age. Right way, wrong know, Vanessa worked what we commonly refer to as an armorer. That means that she repaired small arms. This is not, you know, if you go into the armory at a post, this is a highly secured area. That's what's so striking to me about this.

It's a highly secured area because, look, you keep small arms in there. You don't, you know, contrary to what people think, soldiers don't just walk around with their firearms or with their weapons. They have to take them and store them in the armory. All right. And then you come out and you take them from the armory. And there's very little people who are allowed, as we used to say on the other side of the counter in the armory, because you've got deadly weapons in there. So that means to me, particularly in this day and age, that there's security on that area. The Army knows what's going on. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they had CCTV that is going to account for her location, those moments immediately when she entered the armory and then when she left. And what about Colin Muster when you they said she absolutely was there and she was a comfort, but she wasn't. She was gone.

It's just it's striking to me that you can miss this young soldier like this, that she is allowed her remains. And this is the key as well. I don't know if she was alive or deceased when she rolled off of Fort Hood. Did they kill her on post? Or did they take her off and do horrific things to her? Let's circle back to Tim Miller joining us from Texas EquiSearch. First, Tim, if you could, based on what you know now, answer that question.

Was she dead when she was surreptitiously taken off Fort Hood? And if you could describe for those just joining us what you observed at the discovery of Vanessa's body. Well, my theory is, and I think everybody's, is she was killed inside the armory. I think she was killed earlier that morning inside the armory. He came back about 8.30 that night. That's when somebody spotted him with that Pelican case. So she apparently could have been in that Pelican case for 10 hours inside the armory somewhere. One of the sad things yesterday out on the site, Nancy, is when they did get Vanessa's little body out there, she was still covered in concrete.

It was a mold. So what they did is they put the concrete, her little body that was still molded in the concrete, in the body bag. So as we're speaking right now, I'm sure they are just very slowly chipping concrete away from her little remains and stuff to be able to do an autopsy report. Tim, I'm just trying to take in what you just said so the killer poured wet cement directly onto vanessa she was molded in the concrete they had to take the concrete with her little body in the concrete and like i said as i as we're speaking right now they're just chipping away concrete off of a body so they can do an autopsy report without damaging other body parts

to see if they can determine the cause of death. You know what, I'm going to say something that was never allowed for me to say to juries. You can never under the law put a juror in the place, in the shoes of the crime victim. But think about it. Do you have a mom, a daughter, a sister? Vanessa was just 20 years old. And now her body is found in a shallow grave. With concrete literally poured onto her skin to conceal her identity.

Sometimes I wonder, is there justice? But I pray to God that there will be justice for Vanessa. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.