Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EXCLUSIVE! HEAR IT! "5 KIDS & NO Money and HIS SISTER GETS EVERYTHING." Cult mom Lori Vallow’s FURIOUS TEXT after discovering she loses MILLION DOLLAR LIFE INSURANCE ON DEAD HUBBY

Episode Date: February 13, 2020

The grandparents of missing Idaho boy Joshua “JJ” Vallow tell Nancy Grace that after Charles and Lori separated in early 2019, Charles told his sister that he wanted her to the beneficiary of his $1 million dollar life insurance policy.Joining Nancy Grace today: Larry Woodcock: JJ Vallow's Grandfather Kay Woodcock: JJ Vallow's Grandmother Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina, Family Attorney, www.ncdomesticlaw.com Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, current star of Facebook Watch Series "Curse of Akakor"  Caryn Stark NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com Karen Smith, Los Angeles, Ca Forensics Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of "Shattered Souls" podcast Nate Eaton, reporter East Idaho News dot com Tipline: 1-800-843-5678 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Lori Vallow still has not produced her two beautiful children, two of several children, missing JJ, just seven years old, entirely 17. And in the last hours, I heard very distressing news that she, Laurie Vallow, had stated she wanted to drive the children off a cliff. That just, that was like a dagger to my heart. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. July 11th, 2019. At this point, the kids were doing well, but they witnessed the death of their father,

Charles Vallow, in Chandler, Arizona. He was shot and killed by Lori Vallow's brother, a man named Alex Cox. Alex said the shooting was in self-defense, but the case is still under investigation. This incident started with an argument, a family argument. Fast forward now to September 23rd. This is the last time anyone reported seeing the children, J.J. and Tylee, at school in Rexburg, Idaho. But nobody reported them missing until about two months later.

We'll get to that in a little bit, but first let's talk about Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy. Her dad tells me she was alive and well on October 4th. She drove down from Rexburg to visit her parents in Springville, Utah, but two weeks later on October 19th, the parents got a call from Chad saying Tammy went to bed coughing and never woke up. At the time, doctors said she died from natural causes at the age of 49. You are hearing our friend Adam Herberts speaking from Fox 13 in Utah. Cult mom, so-called cult mom, Lori Vallow, still has not produced her two beautiful children, two of several children, missing. JJ, just seven years old, entirely 17.

And in the last hours, we learn Lori Vallow, who has been spotted, who has been found hiding out in Hawaii with her brand new husband, Chad Daybell, had her missing daughter's cell phone with her when police tracked her down in Hawaii. And that makes me curious because I thought her daughter had sent a text to a friend after she was last seen. But the friends now say that text doesn't sound like anything Tylee would have sent. Didn't sound like her. And now we're learning that cult mom Lori Vallow tried to sell her little boy JJ's service dog. This on top of toys and disturbingly clothes and other items belonging to children

being put by her in a storage unit. Where are the children? Joining me, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, Bobby Chacon, former FBI, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, Karen Smith, forensics expert, Nate Eaton, reporter, EastIdahows.com and special guest joining me Larry Woodcock JJ Vallow's grandfather and Kay Woodcock his grandmother let me first go to Larry and Kay so many thoughts and so many prayers with you this has been a very long and rugged path. When you learned cult mom, as she is called for her beliefs, that she has been chosen by God to lead others to a new world,

the second coming of Jerusalem, and that she is actually sealed for eternity with the alleged prophet Moroni, long dead, the ancient prophet. Okay, that right there is a headbender, but I'm worried about your children. Larry Woodcock, take a listen to this. Law enforcement officers from eastern Idaho, along with federal agents and the Kauai Police Department, pulled Lori and Chad over. They were driving a black SUV. They pulled into this resort where I am standing. They put Chad into one vehicle, Lori into another. That's when their vehicle was seized and they had no way to get home. We had a chance to ask them so many questions that need answers. Lori, Nate Eaton with East Idaho News.

Can you tell me where your kids are? Where are your kids? No comment. They've been missing for four months. You have nothing to say? You're over here in Hawaii? Where are your children? Yeah, why don't you just give us a comment? Just tell us where they are. Chad, where are Lori's kids? What happened to Tammy, Chad? Can you tell us what happened to Tammy? Why have you guys been in Hawaii for so long? Listen, just tell people what's happening. There's people around the country praying for your children, praying for you guys. Why don't you give us answers?

That's great. That's great. That's great that they're praying for you, praying for your kids. What? You have nothing to say? You are hearing our friend nate eaton reporter east idaho news.com larry woodcock what do you make of the most recent development she's remarried to chad daybell who's written 25 doomsday books that's not good they're hiding out in a luxury

resort in hawaii and nobody can find your grandchildren you You know, Nancy, this is the hardest issue Kay and I have ever had to deal with. We have a loving, caring, beautiful grandson that we just absolutely love. And to not be able to see him, talk to him, even with our iPads and the electronic communication we have today, it is so hard on us. Kay and I are both taking this very hard. We have our good days, and we really have some bad days. It's just hard to imagine this. And I would never, ever, ever wish anybody to have this happen to them. It is so very stressful. Just hearing your voice just makes my heart hurt, Mr. Woodcock.

I want to go to Kay, your wife, JJ's grandma. Hi, Nancy. I'm just so sorry. I'm just so sorry for what you're going through, and I am holding out hope and praying

JJ and his sister, Tyler, are alive and that she's got them squirreled away with that cult. Did you have any idea, Kay, that she had become part of a cult? I can't say that I knew it was a cult. Well, I guess I did. I just never... I mean, I am the one that started calling it a cult. Well, I guess I did. I just never. I mean, I am the one that started calling it a cult back when, I don't know, months and months ago.

We've been. I've been deeply involved in this for over a year before even Charles was murdered. when they split up at the end of January last year in 2019. Charles told me these things about the 144,000 people, that Lori was a god, that Lori just, he's telling me these things, and I'm just in amazement like, Charles, no, are you kidding? Come on now. You have to be exaggerating. And he's like, I'm not.

I'm telling you, this is what's going on. So anyway, as time moves forward and I begin, I see, I start seeing things more and more that are about this cult, about I start learning more about it. And the more I learn, the scarier it is. And the scarier it is, it just gets even scarier the more I know. So I really have tried not to learn much more about it because I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss. And right now I need to be as ignorant as I can because this is extremely hard to wrap my brain around and even think about JJ and where he entirely might be.

I just pray that she hasn't. My biggest fear is her reincarnations I can't remember what they're called um she's in number four she's in her fourth time on this earth right now and I think that my biggest fear being that she might have done something to the kids thinking, oh, well, you know, I'm going to miss them for a while right now and maybe have had Alex do something to them or herself and then come back and I'll see them again in my next life because that's, you know, I have a mission to do and they're just in the way. That's my biggest fear right now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bailey, a golden doodle puppy, was trained as a service dog for 7-year-old J.J. Vallow, who has autism. But J.J.'s mom, Lori Daybell, got rid of the dog just days before the youngster and his 17-year-old sister, Tylee, vanished without a trace last September. Good here heel. The dog was returned to its trainer Neil Mestis who says he was shocked because of the close bond between JJ and Bailey. Bailey helped him stay calm was a comfort to

him as well. One of the things that JJ really struggled with and the family show with was him sleeping through the night. He would get up and oftentimes even try and sneak or wander out of the house. And so when we first introduced Bailey to the home, that was one of the first nights that JJ stayed in his bed and slept through the night. Did it strike you as odd then when the mother returned the dog to you? I was really puzzled by it all. And as I inquired, she just said, it's all too hard to talk about. I'm sorry. I just can't go over it, get into it with you. You are hearing our friend at Inside Edition. Little JJ Joshua Vallow is a 7-year-old special needs son.

Family has not been able to speak with JJ since September. Let me ask you this. Kay Woodcock, his grandma, why did he need a companion dog? What did the dog do for him? Because even if she has them squirreled away with this cult, wouldn't he need his dog? He would need his mother, his father. He would need us. He would need everybody that loves him and that is in his life all the time, not some strange family. God only knows who knows nothing about him. And I just can't imagine how he feels if he is somewhere like

that and bailey what did the dog do for him bailey was his buddy bailey slept with him bailey played with him jj he just was always there next to j. If JJ was up, Bailey was right there with him. And, I mean, they just did everything together. And, you know, I have some videos of him walking Bailey, but it's not Bailey, JJ walking Bailey. It's Bailey pulling JJ with a leash on. Bailey was comfort to JJ, and he just helped ease his anxiety because JJ was very anxious. Being autistic,

that's one of the characteristics that he experienced. And so Bailey was his best friend. If you think about it, they murdered Charles July 11th, and J.J. adored Charles. And then, you know, less than a month later, there they are. Lori has Bailey for sale online somewhere, and then they leave on August 30th, and then whatever date.

Then J.J. is lost his dog that day so in that short time that little autistic boy that on a normal child that would be very stressful and so the impact of losing his dad and his best friend Bailey has just, I can't imagine how he feels. Can't imagine. We know that Charles Vallow wanted to get the service dog to help his son JJ with autism. We know that Lori Vallow put Bailey up for sale for $2,500. And then she disappears to a luxury resort in Hawaii with her brand new husband, Charles Daybell, the doomster, are the children to what really happened to the uncle, Alex. When you say Charles Vallow was murdered, what do you mean by that?

I mean, he walked into the house to get JJ. They said that Charles brought JJ to the car and then went back into the house because he left his phone in there or something to that effect and I don't believe that Charles would have confronted Alex

or I just, all of what was said is all just doesn't make sense it's not characteristic of Charles just this whole thing isn't doesn't make sense. It's not characteristic of Charles. Just this whole thing doesn't make sense because Lori is saying she was in the kitchen and she heard the shot. So how could she be in the kitchen

when she had left with the kid, which is what Alex originally said. It's just... Because it's my understanding, according to Lori Vallow, that her husband was attacking her. And then, this is her story, Charles Vallow attacking her. And then her brother, her blood brother, Cox, comes in and shoots down Vallow in self-defense. But yet you're telling me Lori said she was in the kitchen when Alex Cox shot her husband Charles Vallow.

And now Alex Cox is dead as well. Take a listen to her brother, her blood brother, Cox. I turned around and he hit me in the back of the head with a bat. So I went to my room and got my gun. So you went to your room, meaning the room you're staying in? Yeah. Okay, and you brought a gun with you? Yes.

Do you always bring a gun? I have a concealed carry. I always do. Okay. Just to be safe. Hi, who are you? Okay, just stand over there for just a second, guys. And then I told him to put the bat down, and he wouldn't, and he came at me again.

And the wife just showed up as well. So you told him to put the bat down? Yes. So where are you at now? Did you stay in your bedroom? No. Okay, why didn't you stay just in your bedroom and close the door? Was that something you didn't think about? It didn't even occur to me. Okay, so walk't you stay just in your bedroom and close the door? Was that something you didn't think about?

It didn't even occur to me. Okay, so walk me through it. So you go back into your room. So I just went back to the living room. I'm like, what is your problem? With the gun in your hand. Yes. And I said, I want you to put that bat down.

He wouldn't do it. And he's like, and he came at me with the bat again after he'd already hit me in the head. So I shot him to stop him. Kay Woodcott. Were the children home when their dad was shot? I believe they were. I pray more than anything that JJ was not a witness to that, that JJ didn't see Charles laying dead on the floor.

She did take JJ to school as soon as it happened. Well, let me understand that. Charles Vallow gets shot dead, and then she takes JJ to school? Immediately. She even goes in Charles' rental car to take JJ to school. According to reports, the children were home. At least JJ. Larry Woodcock, this is JJ's grandfather. That means a potential witness to the shooting of Charles Vallow is missing

at the hand of Lori Vallow that is correct we hope and pray constantly that uh JJ in a sense our hope is that he is with a family and that I hope and pray that he never saw this happen. But it is our. It's just hard. There's something, Nancy, there's so many lies. If Laurie Vallow opens her mouth, it's basically a lie. We have seen it on tape. We have everything she does, every person we've ever talked to that was involved in this shooting after it happened. Literally every one of them got a different story from from her, even her son, her own son. She lied to her own son, the man that raised her son. And she lied to him.

And he had to go back twice to understand why she even lied about it at all. And he's devastated. All of us are devastated because Charles' two sons, two oldest sons, two of the finest young men you'll ever meet. Instead of picking up the phone and saying, look, there's been an incident. Your dad is dead. She sent him a text the next day, 24 hours later. Oh, 30 hours later. I'm sorry she sent a text 30 hours later saying your dad is dead

crime stories with Nancy Grace. Did you do something to your children? Are your children still alive? That's a simple question. I've got three kids of my own. I can tell you every minute where my kids are at. Where are your children? What do you guys plan to do now?

You have five days to get your children in front of a judge in Rexburg, then what? Are you guys innocent of any crimes? Are you going to, you have five days to get your children in front of a judge in Rexburg, then what? Are you guys innocent of any crimes? Have you committed any crimes? Chad, you guys have a lot to say on your podcast. You don't have anything to say now? Lori, do you believe that you were instructed by God or others to do something for your children? If you could give a message to them, what would you say?

Listen, if you just talk to us, we'll leave you alone. Tammy's family is very worried. Lori, your mother, Kay, came out. Kay and Larry, they're offering a $20,000 reward for your children, and you're over here on the beach? This is your chance to tell your story. Nothing you want to say? One last chance right here? Anything you want to say to the people in Idaho? Lori, you have a lot of cash there in your baggie. Were you guys planning to leave Hawaii? Were you planning to take off? You are hearing our friend Nate Eaton, reporter, EastIdahoNews.com.

If you take a look at divorce documents, as we have, you learn that Lori Vallow, now Daybell, informed her husband that she was a god assigned to carry out the work of the selected 144,000 at Christ's second coming this July 2020. And that if Charles got in her way, she would murder him. Lori Vallow Daybell also informed the dad that she is a, quote, translated being who cannot taste death sent by God to lead the 145,000, 144,000 into the millennium. She believes she is receiving spiritual revelations and visions to help her gather and prepare the chosen to live in the new Jerusalem

after the great war that we can read about in the book of revelations now charles valo now dead says he was on a business trip to houston when lori told him she would kill him when he returned and quote had an angel there to dispose of his body well as a matter of fact char Charles was killed in an altercation, allegedly an altercation, at Lori Vallow's home in Arizona when he went to go pick up their son, J.J. While there, according to their account, Lori Vallow's brother, Alex Cox, shot shot Charles claiming self-defense. Take a listen to this, our friends at CBS. As authorities work to find out what happened to Joshua J.J. Vallow and Tylee Ryan, they're looking into the past of Chad Daybell, now married to the children's mother, Lori Vallow. Daybell self-published more than 25 books from this Idaho home,

many about his brush with death and the end of the world. His preachings are what first attracted Vallow. In a Skype interview, the missing girl's aunt says Vallow became obsessed with doomsday scenarios. She says sometimes I think it would just be better just to put my kids in a car and go off the side of a cliff. Vallow moved to Idaho to be with Daybell after her previous husband, Charles Vallow, died of suspicious causes last summer in Arizona. Daybell's wife, Tammy, also died under mysterious circumstances last fall. The sheriff in Fremont County, Idaho, is investigating. So there's a chance here that Lori could have

also played a role in this death along with Chad. There is a chance that that has occurred and one of the things that we are looking at very closely. Wait a minute. The only potential witness was little JJ, their autistic son. He's gone missing. His comfort dog, his trained dog to help him with his autism, she tried to sell the dog. Then she took off. Nobody can find JJ or Tylee. Now, the only witness gone, Alex Cox, the brother, well, he died too. To Nate Eaton joining me, reporter EastIdahoNews.com on the story from the beginning. He managed to help track down Lori Vallow and her new husband, Chad Daybell. I've seen their wedding pictures of them all dressed in white with flowers on the beach, kind of dancing the hula. This is while their children are missing. Nate Eaton, what's the cause of death

of the brother, Alex Cox? How did he die? And while we're on it, what happened to Joseph Ryan? He died of a heart attack, I guess. What happened? No, that's a great question. We're still waiting the autopsy results on Alex Cox, Lori's brother. Her previous husband, her third husband who died of the heart attack, he was cremated pretty quickly after his death. So we'll never know anything more than what happened there. And Charles, who was shot, he was also cremated shortly after his death. So she's on her fifth husband now. As you mentioned, these photos have surfaced of them on the beach. One thing we need to remember, too, is her new husband, Chad, his wife, Tammy, in her 40s, very healthy, worked at the school library. Everybody loved her. She died in her sleep mid-October.

Those photos of them on the beach were taken within a month of her death, within days of her funeral in Idaho, they're over in the beach, dancing the hula, dressed in white, having this marriage ceremony performed. So you've got three deaths within a matter of, you know, months between the two people that are now in Hawaii, along with the two missing children. Wait, let me add this up. You've got, see, I'm not ruling out the other husband, her fourth husband, Tylee, Ryan's dad, Joseph Ryan, and the heart attack. Because I don't know what happened there. I mean, was it a heart attack?

I don't know. You've got him dead. You've got the wife, Tammy Daybell, who's training for a marathon, dies in her sleep in her 40s. She's a young woman in the prime of her life, healthy as a horse, dies in her sleep. Then you've got Charles Vallow shot dead by Alex Cox, Lori Vallow's brother. Now Alex Cox is dead. What's his COD?

We don't know that. Nate Eaton? They're waiting on autopsies for him. We're also waiting on an autopsy for Tammy. They actually buried her in the ground. A coroner showed up. They ruled her death natural causes, had the funeral, buried her in the ground. Once the law enforcement authorities in Idaho got word of what was happening down in Arizona is that, hold up, we might need to do something. So they exhumed her body from the cemetery and her autopsy is currently being performed. That was supposed to be back two to three weeks ago. In December, right? December 11. Yeah, they've been waiting for that for quite some time. We were expecting that,

but it hasn't come in yet the sheriff's anxious to see what the results are autopsy nate eaton get in there nate get in there you know i want to go back to larry and k woodcock i heard very distressing news larry that she laurie valo had stated she wanted to drive the children off a cliff. That just, that was like a dagger to my heart. Where did that come from? Is that reliable? Would she have said that?

Well, we really don't know. We've heard that same thing, that same statement. And if it is true, my God, you know, what is this woman drinking? What has she ate? And at this point, this is all hurtful enough. You know, Kay and I live this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and it certainly has taken its toll on our health. And to hear something like that, that was supposedly spoken by her, is just, you're past the bottom of the barrel. You know, you're down in you're down in hell talking like that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace So-called cult mom Lori Vallow still has not produced her two beautiful children,

two of several children, missing JJ, just seven years old, entirely 17. And in the last hours, I heard very distressing news that she Lori Vallow had stated she wanted to drive the children off a cliff that just that was like a dagger to my heart I want to go back to Larry and Kay Woodcock Larry and Kay I don't know if you know this I was a crime victim when my fiance was murdered and I never thought I'd marry and have children. I finally had children at age 48. They were a miracle, two miracles. The thought somebody would even say that, even think it, it just, it's almost too much for me to take in.

Tell me something i just can't i mean larry and k i i don't know if you know this i was a crime victim when my fiancee was murdered and i never thought i'd marry and have children i finally had children at age 48. They were a miracle, two miracles. The thought somebody would even say that, even think it, it just, it's almost too much for me to take in. Tell me something, Larry. You've got to be holding out hope that she has them hidden somewhere with that cult. We read about Scientology all the time, how they enlist, they put their children in the church, in the Sea Orgs,

and make them work and make them part of the cult. Do you think that's what's happened to jj every day every moment that we we think about that and it never leaves our head our prayers are that those two children are alive our hopes are that they are alive and i keep waiting for the the phone call one day from one person that says, I know where those kids are. But I can also tell you that it is hard on us to maintain that thought when there is absolutely nothing to be heard from it. Also, the worst thing that happened was that Alex died because I personally believe the history of this story, the outcome of this story died with him. And I just, it hurts beyond our ability to tell you how bad this hurts us. And for that moment thought that we have every day that I can hear JJ, Pawpaw, Pawpaw, Maumau, Maumau.

You know, that's the two words that we want to hear. And I just hope and pray that someday here soon we can hear that. Well, I've got to ask you a question, Larry. Were y'all on good terms with Lori Vallow? I mean, I know she's a complete nut. I don't know how you can be on any kind of real good terms with somebody that you don't know if they're up or down or what they believe or how they're treating the children. But had y'all had any arguments with them, why would she keep you guys away from JJ?

Laurie was probably one of the best mothers that I've been around. There's two Laurie's. You have to speak of, I speak and I am speaking right now of Laurie, the good Laurie. When she and Charles got married and Laurie was the, just a wonderful mother. You couldn't ask for a better mother. She was healthy. She was able to be involved in the kids' lives in all ways. She was extremely athletic. She was caring. She was loving. And she and Charles made the absolute best parents that we knew. But it also goes back. We would have never, ever, ever let JJ be adopted by them if we had a hint of problems, they were both church going. They were both involved in their church. Charles loved JJ as he loved his two oldest children,

his two oldest boys. And I've seen the love that he had for them. I just don't understand how she got twisted around and became a member of this doomsday cult to Nate Eaton. Reporter, eastidahonews.com. What was her demeanor when you managed to help track her down in Hawaii? Well, we found her at this resort. The police had just served a search warrant on her SUV. She was with Chad. They were wearing Hawaiian garb beach beach gear. And she saw me and we approached her with the camera.

And for three minutes, I asked her 29 questions following her into this resort. And she only responded to one. First, she said no comment. And then a little while later, when I said people all over the world are praying for your children, they're praying for you. And then a little while later, when I said, people all over the world are praying for your children, they're praying for you. And she said, that's great. And that was the only thing she said. She kept a stone cold, sober face. Chad was very serious. I did ask him, you know, what happened to Tammy? How did Tammy die? And at that point, there was somewhat of a reaction on his face, kind of a reaction of disgust, I guess you could say. She didn't want to talk to us. And the police described her as lasers coming out of her eyes when they approached her, that she was very cold.

I've got a big problem, Kay Woodcock, JJ's grandmother. I got a big problem in that she is dressed up in this beautiful dress and doing the hula on the beach with a lay around her neck with the new husband. I guess husband number five, not judging Chad Daybell. And where are the children? Who's taking care of them? They're snugged up in a Hawaiian resort, according to Nate Eaton with EastIdahoNews.com. Where are the children? They don't have their toys. They don't have their clothes, their backpacks, their belongings.

They're all put in storage. The service dog is gone. She, Lori Vallow, has her daughter's cell phone and i suspect has been sending fake text messages allegedly from her daughter to other people to pretend the daughter tyler is fine so if she's a great mom and i have no reason to disbelieve larry woodcock in fact I do believe every single word he said why is she living it up on a Hawaiian beach and refusing to tell you guys where JJ is Nancy I believe that this is all I'm gonna give you so I'm gonna I want to tell you something just you just bear with me on this that I haven't admitted publicly since all this has happened so back last February the January 30th or 31st of last year

Lori took off that's when she and Charles separated and that's when I started got really involved helping Charles with JJ in Phoenix. I live in Lake Charles. We live in Lake Charles, Louisiana. So anyway, I was back and forth to Phoenix with Charles, helping him with JJ. JJ was back and forth to Lake Charles, just trying to get things situated, get their lives situated. Because Lori was gone 58 days, never a phone call, never a text, nothing. So let's fast forward.

Back in February, Charles and I had a conversation, and he had a million-dollar life insurance policy at that point, and Lori was a beneficiary. He and I had a conversation one day, and he said he wanted me to be the beneficiary. He, he and I had a conversation one day and he said he wanted me to be the beneficiary. And I actually, um, didn't want the responsibility, but I was like, just let Cole, you know, let the, let the boys, you know, leave it to them and, you know, they'll do what's right with it. And he said, well, I figure that with what Lori's saying, she doesn't want JJ anymore.

She doesn't want me. So, you know, I feel like you and Larry will end up back with JJ again to raise, to finish raising. And I don't know that he'll ever be able to live independently again. So as an adult, so I'll, I'll, I'll, I want you to have that money. And, and he told me how to split it and knowing I would follow through with, with what he wanted with his wishes. And so he, that was the conversation. He said, I'm going to change it to beneficiary. Well, I just – that was the end of the conversation, never discussed it again.

And he – July 11th, they murdered him. July 15th, Lori's on the phone with the insurance company. That was on the Thursday they murdered him. Then the Monday she's on the phone with the insurance company. They tell her she's not the beneficiary. I get a phone call. I never called in. I never knew if he followed through and actually took her off as beneficiary and named either the boys or me or whomever.

I got a call from the insurance company. They said, you're the sole beneficiary. And so we were so grateful only, mainly for the fact that Lori was not the beneficiary. We know that's why she killed him. Absolutely know that's why she killed him. She wanted that million dollars. And because that's all this is about so then uh i can't tell you the exact date but maybe two weeks later she sent a

she took a screen a picture of the change of beneficiary form and naming me the sole beneficiary of the insurance policy, of the insurance proceeds. And she sent me that picture. And she sent a text saying, five kids and no money. And his sister gets everything. And that is the last contact I've ever had with Lori since all this began. Okay. That's a lot to take in. That is a lot to take in.

But guess what? What? If she had, I do believe that if Charles had left her the million dollars, she would have already dumped JJ back with us and I would have been extremely happy because I there's no amount of money in the world that is worth JJ there's he's worth more than anything in the world to us and obviously you know she has a price on people and their values and if they're no longer of value to her it seems she she eliminates them so i that that is what's happened and that is why so if you put the pieces together guess what it's about it's about the dollar and it's about the fact that we got it and she did not and so therefore she was absolutely bound and determined to to hurt us and she used jj

that was her that was her uh revenge to nate eaton eastIdahoNews.com, what do you make of it? Well, I'm just hearing that for the first time, but based on what others have said about Lori, this is not too surprising. You know, when we found her in Hawaii, they were living in a gated community with homes over a million dollars. They were in nice rental cars. In fact, when we saw her when she was pulled over and walking with us, she had a bag full of cash, a big wad full of cash and a plastic bag. And from what we understand from some of Charles Vallow's ex-wives, who speak very highly of him, by the way, and say he was not a violent man and he was a semi-pro baseball player and if he was going to attack somebody with a baseball bat he would make sure that harm was caused to them they would not be able to fight back but his ex-wife tells me that um laurie never worked a day in her life except working in the hairdresser years and years ago so if she never worked a day in her life how was

all this money and what k has just, you know, would make sense. The baby is all about trying to get this life insurance money. And we also know that Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy, had a life insurance policy as well when she died of, quote, natural causes in her sleep. You know, it's overwhelming. I've heard so much about the cult, the doomsday cult. But traditional thinking is who benefits from a death, typically financially.

Bobby Chacon, have we all been blind? Is this all about the money? Keeping in mind, Lori Vallow Daybell has not been charged in any murders or any felonies. The reason she hasn't been extradited back to Idaho is because all there is on her right now is contempt of court for not showing up with the children. Extraditions usually require a felony. Bobby Chacon, is it about money? Well, it certainly looks that way when you look at the objective facts and you hear what we just heard about the life insurance proceeds and that she thought she was going to receive them and it was a surprise to her that she didn't. So yeah, of course, you always look at who benefits from

someone's death and they obviously have a financial motive in that person's death. So that leads investigators to certain things, and you start looking. But, you know, Nancy, before that, you know, in this developing, possibly developing psychosis of hers that she thought she was the savior and things like that. I mean, where in the system are we watching out for the children? Where in the system, when they're going through a contentious divorce and child custody is going to be an issue, does a judge not step in and say, we need to remove these children from this situation and protect them because we may have an independent psychological evaluation should have been conducted based on some of the allegations that he was making against his wife. And those children

were left in a dangerous situation. And to me, we still don't do enough to protect the children in these situations. And I know there is a overwhelming feeling of, you know, keeping the children in the home, keeping them with a biological parent. But sometimes when you have evidence that one of the parents, particularly the custodial parent, has some developing psychosis, possibly, you need to err on the side of caution and remove those children from that situation. That was not done in this case, even though there were indicators that that could possibly be the case. Karen Stark, New York psychologist, have we been blind? We've been focusing so much on her being a member of this cult what about the stunning development that Kay Woodcock has just told us about well it would that would lead you to believe that um this whole delusional the whole psychosis that we're talking about um may be fake to some extent nancy because i know that i think i'm correct when i read that she said that her son was dead um that he wasn't alive

that people had reported that well well yes nate eaton is, no. Hasn't she told people that one of her children have passed away? I think she's referring to Tylee and then said she didn't have any other minor children. Didn't she say that? Yeah, you're correct about that, Nancy. Also, Chad Daybell has reportedly told people when his associates with Lori that they had no children, that she had no children. So not only has Lori said that, but Chad has reportedly also said that she has no children. So Karen Smith, the only way to get Lori Vallow back in the jurisdiction is if there's a felony charge against her, which right now there's nothing of the sort. It all goes back to where are the children, but she is the mom and she can squirrel them away if she wants to, regardless of the pain it's causing the grandparents.

But then you've got the brother's death. You've got the husband's death. You've got Tammy death, Tammy Daybell's death. Would that be a route of investigation in order to hang a felony charge against Lori Vallow? Yeah, they're going to have to go in and the autopsies are going to be the telltale sign, Nancy. That's what we're waiting on. Alex Cox, he was, you know, the autopsy was performed after he died. So the toxicology is, I'm sure, what is holding up the autopsy results at this point. What are they testing for? That's the problem. Is it opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, barbiturates, heavy metals, pesticides? They have to root through all of those possible causes along with everything else in the autopsy. Tammy Daybell is going to be more difficult.

Tammy was exhumed, meaning that ostensibly she had formaldehyde, was preserved formaldehyde before she was buried. That is going to make toxicology extraordinarily difficult. Formaldehyde is an extremely reactive chemical substance. The blood and urine that would normally be there for autopsy is gone. So now they have to go in and take samples of that formalin solution preserved organs from her body, and they have to root through all that formaldehyde to find out if there's any substances in her. So yeah, yeah, big problem. Yeah, big problems, big problems. Let me understand something.

To Kay Woodcock, on the life insurance we know that laurie valo had been named the beneficiary million dollar life insurance then you believe she was taken off as beneficiary you stated something about her being miffed to put it mildly about being taken off as beneficiary how do you know why do you believe she was upset because that was her that was the whole in game was to get that life insurance money and i truly believe that at that point she would have given JJ to us. And, I mean, that's just my speculation in this. And then she would have been free to go live on the beach and do what she wanted to do with the million dollars.

I mean, it just. What, if anything anything did she say about what about about not being the beneficiary all i all i all she said was that she she obviously ran across that life that change of beneficiary form in charles's papers that she had that she must have been digging because she I'm sure it wasn't on the top of anything because Charles wouldn't have wanted her to know she wasn't a beneficiary but um I just believe that there was she didn't say anything other than that text I got that with the picture of the change of beneficiary form naming me and that five kids and no insurance money and

his sister gets everything that's all that's all that's all i've ever heard from her five sisters wait what did the text say five kids and no money and his sister gets everything. Meaning me. And then she disappears. That's it. You know, in my mind, Bobby Chacon, that is a smoking gun. Oh, absolutely. Like I said, whenever you can provide

a financial incentive, and by the way, she didn't know. This proves that she didn't know she wasn't the beneficiary. So in reality, she thought she was the beneficiary. So she thought she had a financial motive if her soon-to-be ex-husband was murdered or killed. So not murdered necessarily, but in his death, she had a financial. She thought at the time in her mind that she had a financial benefit if he died.

And so that in itself is motive. Now, you know, the frustration in this case, I mean, you know, child abandonment is a felony in Idaho. Now, it's not often pursued, but it is a tool that they could use in this case. They could charge Lori Vallow with child abandonment and make her, you know, I mean, it's a tough, tough case because, like you said, they only have contempt of court on her now. It's not a felony. Extradition is not available, but there are other remedies or other, other tools. They'd be very hard to use, but you know, as an investigator, the frustration level is so high. You're trying to grasp at anything you can to force this person before a legal body and force her to answer questions and tell us where these children are.

And so you have to start looking at even obscure methods of doing that. And so, you know, I'm hoping they're looking at any possible way of extracting her back, putting her in jail until, you know, she can provide proof of the whereabouts and well-being of these children. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, White Inn. Nancy, I agree with your former speaker who speaks about why wasn't Charles Vallow given the custody of this little boy? He had filed documents with the courts alleging that he feared for his life. He alleged that he feared for his life. He alleged that he feared for the safety of his child. He alleged that she had a mental breakdown, a

psychosis. And yet I can't find where any orders were entered protecting this little boy. In hindsight, it's 2020, but my role today, every day that I come into court, is to protect the children to the best of my ability and to defend and zealously represent these children when they're in the middle of a situation that could be dangerous, potentially could be dangerous. And the facts were there. The evidence was there. And I'll understand what happened such that this child fell through the cracks and was not protected by his father, that his father was not given the opportunity to protect him. To Larry Woodcock, what is your message to JJ right now? JJ, you know Pawpaw's number. You know my phone number. If any way possible, find a phone, call me. Tylee, get that phone number, call. Call the authorities. Please call the authorities. Let us know where you're at.

We will be there. Authorities will be there as quick as possible. We want you home. We want you safe. Please call. And to Kay Woodcock, what is your message right now to JJ? JJ, mama loves you, and we want you home, and Maddie misses you, and Aunt Susan misses you, and we just want you home and Ranger is missing you and Mama loves you. We wait as justice unfolds and our prayers go on for the missing children, JJ and Tylee. Tip line 1-800-843-5678, 1-800-843-5678, or go to findjjandtylee.com.

Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.