Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Exclusive: Ride along as stepmom leads PI to little Lucas Hernandez body

Episode Date: May 31, 2018

Emily Glass told police her stepson Lucas Hernandez mysteriously disappeared from his bed last February, but last week she led private investigator David Marshburn to the creek where she left the 5-year-old's body. Nancy Grace takes listeners along for the ride with Marshburn, sharing the audio he secretly recorded as he drove Glass down Kansas roads hoping she would take him to Lucas. Lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, private investigator Vincent Hill, Missing Pieces Network founder Kim Martin, and co-host Alan Duke join the discussion.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. website called Truthfinder. Have you been issued a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Did you forget about an embarrassing social media profile? That info may already be online. Truthfinder can help you find it. Truthfinder searches millions of public records, assembling the data together in one report. Members get unlimited searches, so you can also look up those close to you and make sure they're not hiding something. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. The mystery only deepens regarding the disappearance of a five-year-old little boy, Lucas Hernandez. I remember when the twins were just five years old.

When I look back at those photos, it nearly breaks my heart how sweet and innocent and tender children are at just five years old. Just 60 months in this world. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What happened to Lucas Hernandez. I think we know with me now the private investigator who actually finds Lucas's tiny body in a washed out culvert. Kim Martin with me on the story from the beginning with Missing Pieces Network. Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation

Discovery's Fatal Vows. Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com and private investigator, Vincent Hill. First of all, to David Marshburn. David, when I listened to the recording you made of Lucas Hernandez's stepmother, Emily Glass, as you two were driving around trying to find little Lucas's tiny body. It's just overwhelming. Why did you believe you needed to record the entire thing? I found that I don't write notes in front of people because that's sort of like a intimidating as well.

You know, all these things intimidate people, especially writing down stuff. And I always record everything usually if I can. So I can go back and say, well, you know, Marcia and I have a question together of did we miss something? And we forgot to do the recording the first day and I knew the second day was the most important but there were so many variables in this case that if she said something that um you know it'd be my word against hers in a in court for the justice of lucas i would have it on record it's her words not mine well hold on just a moment i want to follow up on that you know in this day and age ashley wilcott i i don't have time to watch a lot of tv but it we have a whole generation that grew up watching Law & Order, SUV, SVU.

I mean, it goes on and on and on. And they expect when they get in. I was just on jury duty last week. When those jurors get in the box, they expect that type of evidence. They're more familiar with the defense's bag of tricks than the defense is. And he's right. David Marshburn is right. The defense would argue it's his word against hers. Of course. And so you're right, Nancy. That's exactly what a jury does. And it's funny because a lot of these trials, if you watch them as they're live streamed, people want that aha moment

and that sexy, oh, we can believe the defendant. We're not going to believe him. It's his word. He's making it up. He sounds like a nice guy, but he's in here just talking. And the reason I think they do that in part is because they want to find something exciting about a trial. You and I both know trials are tedious in terms of there are very few aha exciting moments. Well, I don't know, Ashley, I don't know what kind of cases you've been trying, but what I would be trying, murders and rapes and child molestations.

I got to tell you something. Every moment my heart was racing. I could not eat. I would feel sick in the ladies' bathroom every break. I'd sit there with my evidence through the lunch break. I mean, you know, I never knew what was going to come off of the stand, what was going to come out, who was going to say what. But the tedious nature of a trial, that's true, too. You know, when you've

got one, 200 states exhibits you got to keep up with and you've got to enter this into evidence and you've got to have a legal argument. You got to the jury in and out yeah you know what i do hear you vincent hill you're a private investigator do you agree with david marshburn doesn't it kind of chill the moment it's like you know um when the downer comes to the gaming table in Vegas, the cooler, and somebody will be on a winning streak, and all of a sudden the cooler shows up and everything chills. When somebody stops to start taking notes on everything you're saying, that does make you sit back for a moment. Or when the cop crunches on the audio recording

in the middle of the interview table, you kind of, I've seen people kind of like wither and suddenly they clam up and won't talk anymore. Yeah, that's exactly right. Nancy and David did an outstanding job because what you want to do with these people that you're talking to, whether it's a CI or a suspect or anything like that, is to build their trust. And as soon as you start pulling out that pin and giving them that evil stare, that's when people start to clam up. So yeah. Yeah. You know what? You're right. Brian Russell, excuse me, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of Investigation Discoveries, Fatal Vows. What is it? I mean, I'm so we're about to hear the recordings, by the way, everybody. But Brian, what is it? I mean,

the truth doesn't change just because somebody is taking notes. Yeah, I think when especially when people know that they're going to be dishonest and they're acutely aware that somebody is going to be able to come back with notes or recording or something and be able to compare what they say later to what they're saying now, that they get especially nervous. And fortunately for us in the law-abiding public and for law enforcement, most people are not as good as they want to be or as they think they are at lying. And it's difficult for them to make sure that they keep everything consistent, what they told you five minutes ago, what they're telling you now, what they're going to tell you in a week. You know what? You're right, Brian. Well, also with me, Kim Martin, Missing Pieces Network.

She has been trying to find little Lucas Hernandez from the beginning. And Kim, you of all people on our program today need to buckle your seatbelt because this is very disturbing david marshburn please this is secretly recorded audio of lucas's stepmother the last person to see him alive as david uh very well-known private investigator is driving around the back roads with her in the car, listening to her direct him toward where Lucas's dead body may be. I think we're ready. I hope she's ready. Let's find Lucas Hernandez.

Today is the 24th at 1226. We're on the way to the location of Emily Glass. She is going to possibly lead us to Lucas Hernandez's remains. uh Okay. I want to let you know you're definitely coming back because I told you I was going to help you. I'm going to run in there and get your band-aids. It ain't going to be half as bad as what you're thinking. I'm a piece of shit. Do what now?

I'm a piece of shit. Why do you say that? You ain't no damn piece of shit. What the fuck? Hey. No, no, no, no, no. Look shit. What the fuck? Hey. No, no, no, no, no. Look, we're right here, girl. We ain't going nowhere.

Everything is okay. And what ain't okay, we're fixing to make okay. Don't be like that. Don't be so hard on yourself. I can't do jail. I can't. You ain't going to do jail. Don't preach all services going to let me out. Child services has nothing to do with your bond.

No pretrial. Pretrial services. They can choose to deny me. Okay, so if they do, we post the bond. Regardless, you're still coming out. If they don't agree to pretrial, we'll post the bombing. Better just be then. You'll have to contact David, however he says you have to contact him.

Don't be like that. Don't be so hard on yourself. I know you're scared to death. We're going to be like that. Don't be so hard on yourself. I know you're scared to death, and I mean, we're going to be right here. We're going to get you through this whole thing and take you right back to where we got you from. We're going to be with you every step of the way. Why? Like, I don't understand any of this. Do what now? I don't understand why. this the what now i don't understand why what do you mean why what why would you be with me because that's what we do it's our job wow okay what you're hearing in the background are kaz and rico those are dogs belonging to David Marshburn, the PI, who is driving the stepmother around

trying to find the boy's body. Now, what a surreal scenario they are in. You are also hearing Marsha, a female investigator that works with David Marshburn. David, I couldn't help but notice you guys telling her, we're going to get you through guys telling her we're gonna get you through this we're gonna get you through this translation just keep talking lady just keep talking that's the that's the goal and we make little uh see we try not to lie and and you know we in our minds we don't we put ourselves in her position where she's lying to us so in her mind she makes a fake reality so we do too yeah you're not gonna go to jail you're going to prison so in our mind that's not a lie so we do the same thing she does to us. To Kim Martin with Missing Pieces Network, do you hear Emily Glass crying during this for herself, I think?

Nancy, that's the thing that stands out to me the most. She doesn't mention Lucas. She talks about herself. I can't do jail. Free trial services won't let me out. You know, I don't understand why you're helping me. You know, she doesn't mention Lucas once. Guys, we are playing incredible sound obtained by Private Eye David Marshburn,

who actually got the stepmother last seen with five-year-old Lucas on recording as they are driving around trying to find the tot's body. To Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, host of the hit series on investigation discovery, Fatal Vows. Brian, what do you make of her crying about herself and her future? They're out looking for a child's body. And she's crying about herself. Yeah, this whole thing, Nancy, is very reminiscent for me of Casey Anthony. And I know that you and Dan Abrams have recently analyzed this case again, the Anthony case on television. has always sort of haunted me about the coverage in which I participated of that case is that

I'm afraid that in a morbid way, it taught people that if you kill a child and you can get that body somewhere where it's not going to be found for a while, you might get lucky enough that by the time it's found, people won't be able to determine definitively how the child died, and you might escape prison. And so what I hear here is a woman who sounds very much to me like Casey Anthony sounded. She sounds very self-focused. If she's worried about anything regarding the discovery of little Lucas's body, it's probably that it won't be deteriorated enough.

It's all very chilling. But I also think, as a psychologist, what you heard here on our audio is a masterful job of building rapport with her and getting past that self-preservation instinct and worry of hers. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Maybe suspected your partner's cheating? Maybe worried about your online reputation? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you may need Truthfinder. Public records are only recently easily available

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dangerous people before you become the next victim. It's not just used to bust bad people. Truthfinder helps Americans reunite with friends, family, even people who served with them in the military. It's never been so easy to find the truth. Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. With us right now, the private investigator who managed to capture on tape, tape recording, everything evil stepmother Emily Glass said as the two were driving around trying to find the remains of five-year-old Lucas Hernandez. David Marshburn playing this exclusively for us here on Crime Stories. Let's listen.

What's going to happen at court? Okay, when you go to court, they're going to grant you a lawyer or you can purchase a lawyer. Okay? So at the time of court, all court, if they give you a court appointee, which a court appointee is just like anybody else, any other lawyer. What you do is you tell that lawyer when you go to first appearance, which will be tomorrow, your first appearance will be tomorrow, and I'll go to court with you. I'll take you to court because I'll stay tomorrow. The lawyer will, you'll get your lawyer, then I'll take you to your lawyer's

office and basically you're going to tell them you're going to plead guilty to go ahead and do the 18 months on probation. And then that's it. Okay, are you going to get jail time? No. The only I'm not going to get jail time? No. The only time you're going to get jail time now is you violate your probation because the max you can get, the max is 18 months probation.

That's it. Now, if you violate your probation, now I'm going to go ahead and tell you, you can do 7, 9, or 11 months. Now, if you violate your probation, you best believe you're going to do that. They're not going to put you back on probation because they want to see you due time for this s**t. But you can't because the max a judge can give you is 18 months. I just showed you on that grid, 18 months is the max.

Now, they're going to probably charge you with obstruction. That means you lied to them. Well, that's not going to stick. Obstruction never sticks anyway. So that's neither here nor there. They don't even carry a bond. They don't have a bond they put you on. It'll be together with the concealment of a death. It's a $50,000 max bond. You cannot get a million-dollar bond. That's against constitutional right. The Eighth Amendment of the United States says everybody has the right to affordable bond, affordable bail.

I didn't. Yes, you did. $50,000 was right for that charge you had. No, it wasn't. Yes, it was. I was told that. I read it up on it. It was the max. And you know I could have bonded you on it? And I told Jonathan I would.

When I got up here and you weren't released yet, I would bond you, but you were already released. So that was fine. He said, we don't have the $5,000. I said, you don't need a dime. Well, first you have to release me because you want to find Lincoln. So I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, you don't have to.

I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, I'm going to find Lincoln. I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, I'm going to find Lincoln. I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, I'm going to find Lincoln. I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, I'm going to find Lincoln. I said, I'm going to find Lincoln. He said, I'm going to find fine. He said, we don't have the $5,000. I said, you don't need a dime. Well, first you have to release me because you want to find Lucas. Do I? I mean, it makes sense why you would release me is to find Lucas. I get

it. No, I wasn't. I had to talk to you. I wasn't going to go to the jail and talk to you and let them hear it and then they hit you with murder. What the f***? Do I look stupid? I am a smart mother f***er. You know that. So I'm making sure my s*** is right. Now, Kathy looked up your sister, and your sister is fine to have my. Is it me or my?

Mia. Mia. So that's in the works, and I just don't know what else to tell you but Lucas is the trade-off. So I don't know what you want to do on that because we have to have Lucas. I have an idea about where Lucas is and if everything's correct by about 4, 430 we should be bringing you back to, we should be bringing you back. But like I said, you won't be in handcuffs. They're not going to handcuff you. They're not going to arrest you. And then when we go down there, you're going to do an interview. But just make sure the story you tell this time is exactly what we talked about.

It's just so bizarre to me, Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, founder of childcrimewatch.com, that she's focused on her bond for hiding a body when Lucas is dead and laying at the bottom of a washed out culvert. Here's the unfortunate part, Nancy. She has no empathy, sympathy, compassion for what she's done. And so while it may sound bizarre to us as rational, feeling, sympathetic, empathetic individuals, she is more concerned about herself. Let's go back to the secretly recorded audio that Private Eye David Marshburn recorded as he's driving around with an evil stepmother as she's

called Emily Glass, the last person to see Lucas Hernandez alive. Listen. Now, I don't know what Lucas looked like when he passed away. Was he on his back? Did he throw up? Did he choke on his own vomit? Was he just dead in his bed? Dead on the couch? Huh? He was on the bed? He was just dead.

On the couch? On the bed. On his side or on his back? On his back. So did you think he vomited and choked on his vomit? No, I didn't see him vomit. You didn't? So he just died of the concussion.

And it's okay. It's okay you freaked out. I'm telling you. You're going to be fine. And I want you to do one thing for me. When we get done and we go find Lucas, you owe me a thank you and a smile. Because so far you have not smiled at me one time. And I've tried to ease you up, and I know it's not a joking matter, but I like to see people happy. And this is a path for you to make the right.

But I don't feel you've done right or wrong either way because you're dealing with emotions. And, you know, one out of ten would probably panic just like you. Wow. Okay, I don't know how you got through saying all that, David Marshburn. I guess you had your eye on the prize of finding him

and helping cops to make a case. One thing, yes, no. Did she, Emily Glass, know that she was secretly being recorded in the car as you guys were talking and driving around looking for the body no but hold on dr brian russell host of id's fatal vows in a one-party consent jurisdiction that's okay. The comparison is if you record someone on your phone when you're talking, they don't have to know about it in a one-party consent state, one-party consent to the recording. Is that correct, Brian? That's correct. It sounds like one of the investigators

was with her at all times while she was being recorded, and that then would be the party who consented to the recording. So yes, you're correct. It would be legal. And another thing to Vincent Hill PI, have you ever seen those stories where cops send out a notice to all of the bond forfeiters, the felons on the run, saying they've won a prize or they've won a stereo or I don't know what they may have won, and they all show up and then they arrest them. That's trickery.

And trickery is absolutely okay under the Constitution, even by police. What you can't do under the Constitution is force someone into a confession. If they're an idiot enough to show up for a so-called free TV, that's their problem. Yeah, Nancy, we use that all the time. When I was working patrol in Nashville, when we were serving warrants, you know, but the great thing here with these recordings is David is just coaching her along, coaching her along to get her to talk on her own free will. And that, you know, you can't dispute that when it goes to court because there was no coercion in this, these statements here. Okay, back into those secretly recorded audio tapes.

I mean, I see the way you're scared of Jonathan, son. You and I both, when we talked about what we did yesterday, I noticed that you were a little bit afraid of what he would do to you. And you know what? I don't think nothing. I don't think he'd do anything. Have you talked to him about this? Not really. Okay. And how do you want to break it to him? Do you want me to, or do you want us to do it together when we leave from the police department? Once all the booking's done and all, we leave, do you want us to do it together or do you want to do it on your own? How would you like to do that?

Okay. You are listening to Private Eye David Marshburn as he's leading stepmother Emily Glass down the Garden Trail, hoping against hope that at some point she will direct him to little Lucas's body. To Kim Martin with Missing Pieces Network, who's been looking for Lucas since he first went missing. What do you make of these audio tapes, Kim? At a time when I think that I couldn't be more surprised, you know, I sit here and my mouth is open. I just can't believe what I'm hearing. I mean, that's all. Yeah, it's surreal at this point. When you hear her voice and her crying and carrying on and asking about her bond and what's going to happen to me, me, me, me, me. It's just so surreal to me.

They're out looking for a baby's body. And you and I know right now that it's been disposed of under a bridge. And if it hadn't been for that catch pan in the bridge to slow down the water and catch debris, we may never have found his remains. We may never have known what happened to Lucas. That's what she was counting on. How are the mom and dad holding up, the bio mom and bio dad?

As you can imagine, it's been really difficult. A lot of questioning, I think, what they could have done or should have done and um well for one thing they could have taken the boy out of being alone with her the first time he was covered with bruises i mean you know i'm just putting it out there you know you leave your child alone with somebody they turn up covered in bruises and say uh stepmommy beat me. Well, I don't get that. Ashley Wilcott, do you believe that parents just don't want to accept, they don't want to believe it's true? I sometimes think, and I guess we're going to bring in Dr. Brian on this after you, Ash, because I need to shrink on this. Once a child is covered in bruises the first time and they say,

Emily did it. Why would you leave the kid alone with Emily, Ashley? Right. So in this case, there's a failure to protect by the father. This is what gets to me in so many cases of abuse and neglect. I sit as a judge. I see it all the time. Parents know, see hard evidence, bruises in this case that someone in the household, in this case, the stepmother, is actually physically abusing their child. And what do they do? They turn a blind eye. They're in denial. They don't want to believe it.

And they let it keep happening. Parents have got to protect their child. It didn't happen in this case. What about that, Dr. Brian Russell? I mean, you see it so many times. And remember, the dad, the bio dad, had nothing to do with Lucas's death. He was out of town. He did not know what happened.

He's in deep, deep grieving, probably blaming himself. But why is it we want to trust the ones we love, even when we see physical evidence otherwise. Well, I think in a lot of these cases in which the step-parent abuses their non-biological child, their step-child, the biological parent who brought the step-parent into that child's life did it not because they were thinking about the child and whether the child needed the step-parent in his or her life. They were thinking about themselves and they were thinking about what they needed and wanted from the step-parent. And when there came a question as to whether or not the step-parent was treating the child appropriately, the thought of what the biological parent thought of what he or she would lose if the step parent

went away, uh, was, outweighed the possibility that the step parent was abusing the child. So, you know, when you say, well, the father in this case didn't have anything to do with Lucas's death, uh, that's true in a direct sense, but it sounds to me like Lucas's father brought Emily Glass into the child's life. And I think that feelings of pretty serious guilt over that are appropriate. To Kim Martin with Missing Pieces Network, where was the bio mom during all this? She was out of the state. She was, I believe, in Oklahoma. How often would she see the child?

You know, they had shared custody, but Jonathan had physical custody. So it was kind of at Jonathan and Emily's, you know, decision. And I believe that towards the end, Emily did what she could to kind of keep her away. Because I believe one of the last things that Jamie said to Lucas was something to the effect that, you know, mom is going to help you. We're going to get you out of this. We're going to get you away from her. And, you know, I think she kind of lives with that now. David Marshburn with us, the private investigator who actually finds Lucas's tiny body. And he did it by driving around, convincing this woman, the stepmother, to drive around with him for hours on end chatting secretly recording her every word until they find lucas with me david marshburn the pi who actually finds the body of five-year-old lucas here he is secretly recording lucas's

stepmother as they search for the body do you realize how good you feel right now just by saying? But do you feel a little pressure away by telling me about Lucas a little bit? But you're okay. You are not a bad person. I feel like a bad person. You're not. And I don't see you as a bad person. You're not. And I don't see you as a bad person. And I will stay with you all the way. I will not leave you. The only time I have to leave is when they're doing their interview with you. Okay? When they're doing their interview with you, I cannot be in there. So make sure you tell them everything and don't change your story. And I've got the photos.

I think we can go to the hospital and get the doctors and get the records. So if while you're in there, if they need those records, I'll go get them. But you'll have to, we'll have to make that set up or Jonathan set that up or call them and say, look, I need you to release these records to this PI so I can take it back up there. Okay. David Marshburn, I thought you said you tried not to lie. Why did you keep telling her over and over you're not a bad person? Well, here's what I was doing. It's just my calling it like it is.

A lot of people. Hid the boy's body. If you understand what I'm doing, I'm basically giving her the scenario in her mind what the best favorable outcome is for her. But then by her talking, it's kind of a mind game. I'm giving her an out, and then I need her to respond. So the truth, she doesn't realize that the truth is that you just basically need her to keep going and find that body that's what you need

and you're telling her whatever you have to tell her to find that body and thank thank god in heaven that you did that i've just got to give you a little bit of grief by catching you saying, you're not a bad person. It's going against what, when she makes statements, it goes against what I'm telling her, you know, what I'm giving her her fantasy of the outcome is she's actually going against that. Well, I tell you the last thing she wanted,

the last thing she wanted were those hospital records. Okay? Or the autopsy. Because what do you believe the hospital records are going to show, Kim Martin, the previous hospital records on Lucas Hernandez, the little five-year-old boy? Definitely old bruising, always an excuse for why they're there, some vomiting, you know, for whatever reason. I won't get into the autopsy yet,

but it will be interesting to see what comes out of that, you know. Right, we don't have the autopsy yet, but when we do, it actually, it really depends a lot on how skeletonized this child's body was. When David Marshburn first got out and went out on the bridge and looked down, he thinks, he tells me he thinks he saw the top of Lucas' head, but he couldn't really tell because Lucas child being tossed out like trash over a bridge to lay there in the sun and rot. And this case languished. No one ever would know what happened to Lucas until David Marshburn got a hold of Emily Glass. Listen. So where do you want to go?

You are not going to see him. I promise you. I'm not going to let you do that. I don't know where exactly it's at. I just know it's in Keechai. Keechai? Yeah. Well, how do we get to Kichai?

It's north of here. So direct me. Good morning. 935 to 254. All right. So if I leave out of here, which way I go? Go to the right. Okay. You're going to be okay. You're not. All right, so if I leave out of here, which way I go? To the right?

Okay. You're going to be okay. You're not, you're not, you're, it's going to be so, your life is going to change so much and be so relieved that what I told you was the truth and how everything's going to happen because you're not a bad person. The body of little Lucas was found 20 miles away from Wichita. That's quite a distance for her to have driven. Severely decomposed.

It had been under a bridge for quite a while. When it was first spotted, it was, according to police, unidentifiable. It was under a bridge in a very obscure area. David Marshburn, describe for me where the body was found. Where was that? It was straight from her house where they live, several miles north. And it was on a desolate road, all gravel roads out there. There's really nothing but farmland out there. So, you know, it was just empty out there. I couldn't believe she would even know that that was out there unless she just happened to run up on it.

That's how a lot of people get away or hide a body is because they don't go to the norm where they're where they know the area and stuff so that's how it's that's how they get away with it for so long is because they don't go where they normally normally when someone kills someone they'll take them out to where they know the area but she just happened to go where she didn't even know the area well i i think you're you're right i agree with about 80 of that david marshburn because to to give an example scott peterson murders lacy and his unborn child connor where does he dump the bodies he dumps the bodies in the san francisco bay where he goes fishing that's familiar territory to him where does top mom casey anthony dispose of her daughter kelly's body 10 houses down from the anthony home behind a school where she used to go

and hang out with her little uh teen friends that's where her body kelly's body was found it's an area with which she was familiar this This is the part where I disagree, David Marshburn. We might not know the answer yet, but this area has to be of some significance to her. She had to know about it. I mean, somebody puts you in a car, Vincent Hill, and says, okay, dispose of a body. You have to know this area existed. You just don't go drive two hours and suddenly find an isolated bridge to, to dispose of a body.

Yeah. One of the things to keep in mind, nobody wants to drive around that long with the body in their car and keep in mind too, she admitted to investigators that just before this, she had smoked a bunch of marijuana. So this may have been a place she knew because maybe she had gotten drugs in the area before. But I think you're spot on to say that this is an area that she knew because no one wants to drive around that long with the body in the car. What about it, Kim Martin, with Missing Pieces Network, who's been trying to find Lucas for all these months. What possible significance could this bridge, this area have for the stepmother, Emily Glass?

None that I've been able to find so far. Of course, we've looked into her relatives and who might live where, you know, and I'm sure there's relatives that I don't know about or friends that live out there, but it's an odd location. Again, I think everybody thought it was going to be someplace that she was familiar with. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's just it. And like you said, she wouldn't want to drive around with the body in her car. She had a restricted license. So technically, she wasn't supposed to be driving anywhere except to work school church or medical appointments so yeah i don't know why i don't know how she came up with

well here's another issue i don't understand ashy wilcott juvenile judge founder of child crime watch.com if i'm right she was the one with luc Lucas when he had bruises before. She is the one who leads police to his body. Well, leads David Marshburn, PI, to his body. She's the one who was alone with him at the time he died. She is the one who reported him, quote, missing. That's a lie. What are we waiting on, Ashley? Well, remember, Nancy, this is the case, and I know you remember, but for listeners,

the stepmother was recently acquitted of child endangerment after she smoked pot before driving with her one-year-old in her car. So I believe that the prosecution is being exceedingly cautious to make certain they have all their ducks in a row, they have all of the evidence ready. I think they're also waiting for the autopsy report to determine cause of death to this child before charges. To David Marshburn, you've spent more time with Emily Glass than anyone else outside of Lucas's dad. Do you think that she will confess to how Lucas really died? No. The autopsy is going to have to tell the truth. I mean, she, you got to understand now, I gave her an out.

But the out I gave her will not coincide with that autopsy. That's why I say when I'm telling her she's a good person and I'm giving her, you know, basically that out, I'm also having her talk so that it will counteract what that out I was giving her. That's why, you know, a lot of people say, well, God, he really believes her and he likes her and and he's doing all this stuff no i'm letting her bury herself basically and that's just part of the

part of the way we do these things and you know i just uh the autopsy is going to tell the truth. I did in some of this, I talked to her about, you know, the autopsy. And I basically said, unless there's a bullet hole, there's not going to be anything there for an autopsy. But little did she know, I know that's not true. Let me ask you a difficult question, David Marshburn. You saw the body of five-year-old Lucas. How much tissue, skin, muscle is left of Lucas? I'm trying to figure out

whether they'll be able to even determine a cause of death, if there's enough of his body left for that. I was amazed how much was left. Now, I didn't want to go into gruesome details or anything, but there was quite a bit. After being out there for that long, but I think the weather played a part in that in February when they had a real, real bad cold storm the week of him missing after she had laid him out there, and it kind of preserved his body, which was if we would have found him a couple weeks later, there'd be nothing there. Well, you know, I always say Dr. Brian Russell,

host of Investigation Discovery's Fatal Vows, if you don't know a horse, look at his track record. If we're trying to figure out how Lucas was killed. Yeah, I think a number of things. The first is I'm here in Kansas and I can tell you that it has not gotten really hot here until the last couple of weeks. And so I think that David is correct that the weather probably helped to preserve the body better than it would have been preserved had it been found another couple of weeks from now. I also agree with you that some kind of blunt force trauma to the skull, for example, is one of the things that we know from previous cases that actually can be found and proven by medical examiners, even years later, even with an exhumed body like we saw happen in the Drew

Peterson case in Illinois. I also think that it is highly likely that there is a connection between Emily Glass and the location where the body was found, in part also because she was able to lead David back there. They didn't have to drive around for days trying to find this place. She was able to get him back there fairly quickly. The last thing I'll say here is I think he did a masterful job of playing into... He did a textbook illustration of playing to the narcissism of the sociopath where you feed into the way in which they want to see themselves i'm still a good person it's not going to be that bad

i'm going to still be okay you know that's interesting dr brian russell the way he led her down the garden path as he should have he had access he He got access to Emily Glass all on his own in a way police never could have. And she went right along with it. I don't understand, David Marshburn, how you got her in the car to start with. It's that Southern charm, I guess, but, uh, I, I had to work from, you know, I'm an outsider. I'm from out of state, you know, that kind of distance, everything as well in her mind, having Jonathan, Jonathan was going to be the key to get to her and, and to get to Jonathan. I basically had to tell the grandmother, hey, if he doesn't call me and doesn't want me to come out there,

then he doesn't want his son found, because I do have a good track record. Why would you go with someone that doesn't versus someone who has a really good track record? So that was an indicator that Jonathan was pretty much on the up and up and you know that's just how I had to get to him and when we're talking about Jonathan we're talking about Lucas's biological dad with whom he was living so you got the dad on board and for her to keep up the pretense that she was innocent I guess she felt she had to get in the car and go with you, David. Well, I told her that was part of the healing process, part of the sympathy and empathy that everyone would have. It was all about what she looked like in the public.

Guys, I want you to listen to what I consider to be the most critical secret recording. Listen. I'm just, I feel so sorry for you. I put everyone through f***ing hell. It's okay. The only thing you can do if I'm here is move forward and do everything right. Where's the dog? I did Lucas so wrong. I did him wrong. God honest truth.

To David Marshburn, what is she saying there? She's saying that, you know, she did Lucas wrong. And then at the very, very end, finally, it breaks through to her mental state and everything. That's the God honest truth. I mean, she finally come out all the way clean. And it's, you know, she said two important things. I did Lucas so wrong. That's the God's honest truth. Nancy Glass is again a free woman. That's after spending about four days in jail on an

obstruction charge for allegedly lying to police about Lucas. After Wichita detectives met with prosecutors Wednesday afternoon, District Attorney Mark Bennett emerged from his office and surprised reporters, announcing there would be no charges against Emily Glass for now, at least not until they see the full results of the autopsy and they follow up on new investigative leads. The obstruction charge filed against the stepmom has been dropped, and she was released from jail soon after the district attorney's announcement. The jail website says Glass has been released without having to post any bonds, since, of course, she's not facing any current charges. All we can do now is seek justice.

With me is David Marshburn, the private eye who is being lauded today for having the wherewithal to finagle, to wrangle little Lucas's stepmother into the car, driving for hours and hours, managing to keep up conversation with her and reel her in until the case was solved. Was it solved the way we wanted? No, because what we wanted was Lucas to be alive and happy. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Maybe suspected your partner's cheating? Maybe worried about your online reputation? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you may need Truthfinder.

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