Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Exorcism, Swaddling, Food Restriction Leads to Death of 4-Year-Old Boy

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

A text from his wife makes Joseph Wilson call 911 to report that his adopted son Skyler is having a seizure. That text message, however, came in hours earlier. Jodi Wilson wrote "Something happened while swaddling Skyler."  Included in the text was a picture of Skyler wrapped in a sheet, face down, and duct taped to the floor. Skyler was taken to Brenner Children's hospital where a doctor explained to a detective that Skyler had a Hypoxic Brain Injury, caused by a lack of oxygen getting to his brain. The doctor said that Skyler’s brain injuries were consistent with “too much restriction” used during the so-called “swaddling” technique. Joining Nancy Grace today: Kirk Nurmi- Legal Analyst and former lead counsel to Jodi Arias (Mesa, AZ), Author: "Trapped with Ms. Arias", Twitter/Instagram: @nurmiunchained Caryn Stark- Psychologist- Trauma and Crime expert- carynstark.com @carnpsych Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, Host: Zone 7, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips     Rev. Dr. Bob Larson- Founder of Spiritual Freedom Churches International, Author: Book of Religiouns, Cults and New Age Spirtuality”, BobLarson.org, Twitter: BLarsonexorcist, Facebook: BobLarsonTheRealExorcist Dr. Tim Gallagher- Medical Examiner State of Florida, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine. Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference, pathcaremed.com Caitlyn Becker- Senior Reporter for Dailymail.com, @caitlynbecker See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful four-year-old boy is dead and now we're wondering why. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Have you heard the word swaddle? I thought I knew what that meant. Now I'm learning a lot more about that word swaddle, but I think we all know the word exorcism first of all take a listen to our friends at WFM why this all started back on January 5th when Joseph Wilson called 9-1-1 reporting that Skyler was having a seizure the hours before calling 9-1-1 Jody Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while

swaddling Skyler swaddling swaddling Skylar. Swaddling. Swaddling. And why is she texting her husband something happened with Skylar hours before calling 911? Right there, I don't like it. True, some people, me, overreact and call 911 whenever you see a car crash or you think a child is being mistreated. But I always think better safe than sorry. Correct? Why does she wait that long? As a matter of fact, who are these people?

Who are Skyler's parents? Take a listen now to our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Welcome to Affordable Wellness, the future of health care. Let us be your guide on your journey back to true health. At Affordable Wellness, we put you in control of your health. That is the opening line on the webpage of Affordable Wellness in Mount Airy, North Carolina. The owners, Dr. wilson and his wife jody wilson dr joe wilson was born and raised in nearby statesville north carolina his online bio

says he was an eagle scout did missionary work in argentina has a master's degree in acupuncture and a doctorate of chiropractic he and his wife jody have three daughters but online they don't mention they have adopted two boys skyler and his brother were both in foster care when dr joe and jody wilson adopted them nearly two years ago okay hold on right there before i go on about who these parents are they clearly have uh degrees out the yin yang but wait wait wait wait karen stark joining me uh well-known psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. You can find her at karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C.

Karen, you get our Christmas and Easter cards every year. And I can't imagine having one of those Christmas cards or Easter cards. What would you think if all of a sudden John David wasn't in there? Or Lucy just was somehow missing. There was a space there where she normally stands. Obviously, I would begin to wonder, Nancy, about what happened to one of the kids. I doubt you'd wonder very long because you'd pick up the phone and call me. In this case, you have to think if they have these two extra children that they've adopted, what in the world is going on that they have left them out of the picture, literally out of the picture. Okay, guys, we're hearing about

affordable wellness, the future of health care. I understand. Hey, guys, joining me, I'm hearing in my ear, Caitlin Becker, senior reporter for DailyM dailymail.com you can find her at Caitlin Becker Caitlin thanks for being with us Caitlin affordable wellness the future of health care what is that their health care center it is it was mainly a chiropractic center but Dr. Joe Wilson did chiropractic. He did acupuncture and nutrition and all sorts of sort of different modalities. What do you mean different modality? Like Jackie told me, if she's telling the truth, that she's not going to be here tomorrow morning with the rest of us at 520 a.m. She has a doctor's appointment. She didn't say she had a what did you say multi-modality yeah a multi-modality appointment what is that you know nancy i am in i live in los angeles so multi-modalities is something we deal with all the time so i'm sure what is it more holistic holistic approach to the body so chiropractic

acupuncture things like cupping but even dr joe okay you mean the thing gwyneth paltrow does where she has big round marks on her back yes which i do do and i like but even dr joe wilson's former okay see caitlin i can never look at you the same way again. A chiropractor who has turned his chiropractic practice into a multimodality, basically healing center, three more holistic methods. Okay, I understand that. Now, what do we know about the wife? Take a listen to CrimeOnline.com's Dave Mack. Jody Wilson is the wife of Dr. Joe Wilson, and her bio on the Affordable Wellness website says she and Dr. Joe met while she was doing an internship at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. She and Dr. Joe both mentioned that they have three daughters, but neither

mentions they adopted Skylar Wilson and his brother. She mentions having a cat Lucky and a flock of chickens, but no mention of the two boys they adopted out of foster care nearly two years ago. So the cat and the chickens make it onto the website, but not the two little boys, one of them being Skylar. Let's bring it up to the moment that baby Skylar, just four years old, goes into seizures. Take a listen to our friend, reporter Madison Forsey at Fox 8 News. It wasn't until 8.19 that night, Joseph Wilson called 911 for help saying Skylar was having a seizure. Jody Wilson could be heard in the background saying, it's my fault. Skylar ended up here at Brenner Children's Hospital where he died four days later. The doctor who took care of him told too much restriction while he was swaddled led to his brain injuries. Okay, right there.

I've got an all-star panel to figure out what sense we can make of these facts. Does anybody know about swaddling? Because the first time I ever heard that word was at Christmas time as a little girl where the shepherds found Christ swaddled in a manger. I did not know what swaddled meant. Then I later learned it meant to be, well, at that point, I thought it was wrapped in swaddling clothes, like loose blankets. It's what I envisioned.

But then when I had the twins, fast forward many years later, they taught me, of course, the twins were extremely premature, how to swaddle them for the next, you know, two or three weeks until they became accustomed to being free to move their arms and legs however they wanted. So I thought still it was just a mode of wrapping your baby up in a blanket. Now I'm learning it's a lot more than that. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, renowned medical examiner, joining me out of the state of Florida at pathcaremed.com, lecturer, University of Florida Medical School, Forensic Science. And this is really impressive. He's the founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference,

which is gaining momentum, going strong. Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us. Why would a four-year-old boy or girl still be swaddled? Because I didn't, but most people wrap the baby in very, well, not very, very tight, but tight wrappings to swaddle a baby. Right. Well, I've had cases where the infant was swaddled and that was the cause of death. It was a little too tight. Oh, okay. Wait, stop.

Remember, you're talking to non-medical doctors. Okay. What did you just say? You have had infant deaths because of swaddling? Yeah, that's correct, Nancy. We've had, it's not very often, but approximately once or twice a year, you know, I would have an infant death due to swaddling. That's when the blankets are wrapped around the infant so tightly that the lungs are not able to expand and the kid is not able to breathe correctly and they die of suffocation that way. You know, a four-year-old, I don't know of any specific reason why they would need to be swaddled. You know, they will suffer the same effects. They

would suffer the same effects of not being able to breathe correctly and not getting enough oxygen to their brain and as we know as we've discussed in the past it only takes about three minutes before the brain starts suffering irreversible brain damage which would lead to death you know after the lungs have been constricted the way they are with this type of tight swaddling. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Gallagher, let me ask you a question. John David and I were watching a thriller late last night. Yes, I know it was a school night.

And he asked me, Mom, how long does someone have to be suffocated before they die? Because there's a suffocation scene in the spy thriller. What's the answer to that? Well, when someone is beginning to get suffocated, in about 15 to 30 seconds, they will pass out. They will pass out and they'll become unconscious and um if that continues if the suffocation continues it will be three minutes you know before their brain starts to suffer irreversible type of brain damage you know that can lead to their death so they would have to be suffocated for three minutes or more to affect death in that person. Dr. Gallagher, you mentioned three minutes for an adult.

I'm thinking about a child being swaddled, which is kind of like, I would compare it to positional asphyxiation, where you can't move and your lungs can't expand, you can't breathe. Like when a baby's tipped over and it can't breathe. How long, is it also three minutes for a baby that is swaddled very tightly until the baby dies? Well, you know, now that you have me thinking about it more, you know, children are more resistant to, you know, this type of, we call it oxygen starvation to the brain or cerebral anoxia. They are more resistant to that. You've probably heard of children who slip through the ice and go under the water and have been under there for half an hour and are successfully revived. You rarely hear of any adult doing that.

The child's brain is more resistant to this type of oxygen deprivation. So, you know, in a child, I would argue well on the stand that it would be three minutes or greater, most likely greater than three minutes, you know, for the death to take effect. You know, I'm just thinking back about what you told me, Caitlin Becker, joining us, senior reporter, DailyMail.com. You said that the father here runs his own wellness clinic, Dr. Joe Wilson, who is a licensed chiropractor, has a master's degree in acupuncture, doctorate of chiropractic. And then his wife, he met while she was doing an internship at Wake Forest Medical Center. So they both are very well versed in, you know, wellness, medical procedures, yet they're swaddling a little four-year-old boy so tightly he goes into seizures?

Nothing about this makes sense for any kind of medical professional or any kind of parent would know the difference between swaddling an infant and what they're doing to a four-year-old. And to be clear, like you had mentioned earlier, swaddling is basically a soothing technique that you use for infants. And there's no kind of hard and fast rule about what age you stop swaddling. Soothing? Why is that? I mean it's for infants to resemble being in the womb. It's for a two-month-old. The minute the baby the infant can roll over is the time you stop swaddling. So under no circumstances would it ever be conceivable to do this with a sheep to a four-year-old? I mean, let's call this what it is. They were restricting the child's movements on purpose as I think either

a parenting or a punishment technique, which is, that's what it sounds like to me. And I think they're sort of couching this in the word swaddling. I don't know to make it more palatable to them or more palatable to others, but there's just no reason a four-year-old child should ever be swaddled, particularly with a sheep. And they put them in a wagon. They swaddled them and they put them in a wagon, which they use for a bed. You know, Karen, start with me, psychologist out of Manhattan. Karen, I remember that we had a nurse with us when I first brought the twins home because, as you will remember, I couldn't really walk that well. And she swallowed the babies for about two or three days,

and I would be sitting right there. And finally, I told her, I said, I just don't like to see them restricted in that way. I know it's going to be a shock to them to have their arms and legs free, but that's what I want. And she actually argued with me. She thought they should still be swaddled, but I couldn't stand to see them constricted that way. There was something, I just felt innately, there was something wrong with it, much less a four-year-old boy. Listen, in a lot of places now, they do not allow swaddling because if you don't do it correctly, the child could die, as we're discussing, or they could have hip displacement. There are a lot of things that could go wrong. actually recommended treatments that would never be approved by the American Psychological Association or any therapeutic association that talks about how you deal with children.

Well, guess what, Karen? It wasn't just swaddling, okay? Take a listen to Madison Forsey at Fox 8. Here's a timeline. On January 5th, 5 30 p.m. Joseph Wilson got a text from his wife saying something happened when swaddling Skylar. She mentioned a problem with the child's arms. An hour and 15 minutes later at 6 45, she put Skylar down for the night in his wagon they used as a bed. 15 to 20 minutes later, the Wilsons heard their four-year-old wiggling in the bed and went to try to stand him up. Skylar fell over. They tried to give minutes later, the Wilsons heard their four-year-old wiggling in the bed and went to try to stand him up. Skyler fell over. They tried to give him water, which he rejected after a second sip.

Okay, so that's the timeline that we know of that night. You know, I'm learning so much more. I want you to take a listen now to WFMY's Grace Holland. She also sent him a picture of him wrapped in a sheet face down on the floor. Duct tape held Skyler to the floor. Former foster parents filed a report to DSS concerning the child and his siblings well-being. She says Jody Wilson told her about the swaddling, food restriction, and exorcisms of the kids. Swaddling the child, the child is so big you have to wrap it up in a sheet. Duct taping the child to the floor, face down. Now I'm hearing about food restriction

and exorcism. Guys, joining me right now, in addition to Kirk Nermy, high-profile lawyer out of California, author of Trapped with Misereus on Amazon, and Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of a hit new podcast, Zone 7. I want to go to a special guest joining us, Reverend Dr. Bob Larson, founder of Spiritual Freedom Churches International

and the author of Book of Religions, Cults, and New Age Spirituality. He's on Facebook at Bob Larson, the Real Exorcist. Dr. Larson, you have told me that the first time you observed what you believe to be a person, a female possessed by a demon. And the way you described it was very convincing to me, was several years ago. Could you recount your experience for us? Well, on that particular account, this was the first time that I actually ever encountered a case of demonic possession. Now, I had previously traveled to the Far East, throughout Asia and Africa, and had witnessed possession ceremonies there,

which are pretty typical. And I'd seen them in Haiti and other places. Okay, I'm sorry, Dr. Larson. It's hard for me to compare our religious foundations and our medical system to an exorcism in Haiti. Okay, tell me something that I can understand. Okay, well, what I'm trying to say is these sort of things are accepted more readily in non-Western cultures. But in non-Western culture, it's very difficult for people to wrap their brains around this kind of spirituality.

But when you have a teenage girl who is speaking in a very distinct accent that she has never really, she's never traveled England, she doesn't know anything about how to speak in high class British accent. And this alien voice coming out of her body and saying, I own her, she belongs to me and I make love to her. You either accept that as a reality or you just assume it's some type of psychosis. Okay, stop right there. Reverend Dr. Bob Larson, let me ask you a few quick questions.

How old was this young woman? This young woman happened to be 15 years of age do you think she had the intellectual capability or the uh sophistication to pull off faking it absolutely i mean that would be like my daughter and son, their twins just turned 15. No way could they have an extended period of faking demonic possession to me. They just couldn't do it. I don't know that I could do it, but certainly they couldn't do it. Of course, I've met many people who have tried to fake it, but she wasn't attempting to fake it. And this has become a very important part of her life. This started out earlier with her involvement with Ouija boards and other types of demonic practices. But then it escalated to

this kind of demonic cohabitation situation. And she was very real and very serious about it. The voice that spoke was not her voice. We had other witnesses who were there. So this jarred my world when I saw that this was happening in America. What was the most severe possession you've ever seen? The most severe possession, and there would be several that I would point to, are cases that have required continuing spiritual intervention and psychological intervention lasting for months. And in some of these cases, there are supernatural things that take place. The individual knowing things, speaking of things that they could not have known,

citing dates and times and places, sometimes hundreds of years ago, things which defy logic. There's simply no way to understand it outside of a supernatural explanation. And, you know, people always want to know, well, have you seen people levitate? Sure, I've seen that kind of thing. But possession usually exists on a much more subtle level. You know, we live in a rationalistic environment in which scientism has taken control of the thinking of most people. That's not entirely bad because it's given us a lot of great advances, but there still is a realm of spirituality, of good and evil, of angels and demons that exist in a parallel

state of being. And when people do things which open their lives up to it, they somehow open a door. These demons come in, and the classic term is possession. It doesn't mean the person is a zombie or a robot. Are you suggesting that the person opens the door to be inhabited by a demon? Yes. Okay, can I tell you something that my grandmother said? If the devil knocks on your door, do not open the door.

Next thing you know, he'll come in for dinner. Then he'll be sleeping over. Then you can't get rid of him. And that applies to everything. Drugs, pornography, gambling, alcohol. Once it gets a hold of you, it stays. You can't get rid of it. Okay, Reverend Dr. Bob Larson, please don't move. But yes, no, Dr. Larson, I assume that exorcisms do not end up with the victim dead at the hospital. Well, over a span of five decades of having done about 50,000 exorcisms,

and I do this on a regular basis, six, seven, eight times a day, virtually in person. I've never had a person die. Nobody even come close to it and have never done an exorcism on a child of that age you'd simply in good conscience would not do that because it requires the cognitive response of the person to interact with you and tell you what's going on. Kurt Nermy joining me as I mentioned high profile analyst, I'm sure you're not proud of this, but I have to put it in there, represented Jody Arias, the murderer who killed Travis Alexander, her boyfriend. And he did so over his own objection.

The judge required him to continue representing her. He's written the book Trapped with Miss Arias Kirk. Okay, when I went into the law, I did not believe in a devout Methodist. I did not believe in exorcisms. I did not believe in psychics until fast forward, Kirk. And I encountered them prosecuting, but I would never, ever, ever put one on the stand because I thought if somebody on the jury didn't believe in it, then I and my case would lose credibility and I'd lose the case and the bad guy would walk. But Kirk, I feel it's safer to deal with things everybody on the jury understands, science, DNA, fingerprints. But I became a believer when I started working with Larry King and hosting his show.

One night he didn't feel like coming in and I hosted for him and it was about psychic detectives, which I thought, oh no. But one of them really turned me around. There's no way she could have known what the information that came to her and she cracked a murder. And she was wrongfully arrested by LAPD and she took them to court and got a, I think, a million dollar judgment because they also thought she has to be the killer. How would she know where the body is? It was amazing. Now, I still to this day would not put it in front of a jury because i don't expect anybody else to believe what i saw happen what do you take what do you make of what

you're hearing kurt you can never take this to a jury that someone had a demon that had to be exercised that's right no matter what we think of, no matter what we think of exorcism, these alternative treatments, the law does not recognize exorcism or alternative therapies as a defense to a crime. And we're talking about the crime of murder here. We have danced around this a little bit, but this is really we can call it exorcism, alternative therapy. I'm calling it murder one and I'm calling it felony murder with the underlying felony being child abuse. Hey, Kurt Nermy, take a listen to Grace Holland, WFMY. Doctors say the little boy's brain was injured by a lack of oxygen caused by some type of restriction. According to search warrants, hours before calling 911, Jodi Wilson texted her husband saying something happened while swaddling Skyler. They found wrist and ankle restraints and took lots of digital records from computers and phones, including home surveillance video

that shows abuse. The documents also say during a search of the Wilson's home they found a computer and journals documenting acts committed against the children. They also found ankle and wrist braces and straps. Dad told investigators that those were used to restrain Skyler during the swaddling process. Okay let me understand this Cheryl McCollum founder Cold Case Research Institute in addition to swaddling the four-year-old boy who was so big they had to swaddle him, I'm using air quotas for that, with a sheet, not a baby blanket, a sheet, that they needed hand and wrist restraints for this four-year-old child, the one they don't include on the website.

And that also includes duct tape, Nancy. So his wrists and ankles are bound and restrained as well as duct tape over the sheet that he's wrapped in onto the floor. So he is secured completely. He would not be able to be mobile at all. And they also gated his room. They starved him. And they had what they call excessive alone time. This child was abused. And you know that I always tell you, when I respond to a crime scene, I start outside. The first thing I noticed about that house is you would never know five children live there. There's no swing set, no basketball goal, no toys, no kiddie pool, no just little shoe left outside. There's nothing that would indicate five children are there and all the curtains and blinds are closed. This was a house of horror. And not only that Cheryl, what do you make of the fact that there is videotaped surveillance from within the house showing prior abuse on this four-year-old

little boy? Well, you know, she took all the cameras down. Then she hid the, you know, film SD cards, whatever they're called. This was somebody so twisted, she not only was doing it, wanted to watch it. Yeah, I don't understand that, Karen Stark. We need to shrink. What about it, Karen? Not only were they abusing, and we've had another case like this. Remember, Jackie, where the parents were actually filming the abuse on the child and the other children would see it and were too afraid?

They were traumatized too. They would see the abuse on the one child and were too afraid to say anything about it, Karen Stark. Well, I hate to say this, Nancy, but the truth of the matter is they were enjoying watching the abuse and they had been advised that it was okay to use these different methods. Why are you saying they were advised? It was their decision to do it. But they

were paying attention to somebody who was advocating that they use these techniques to get the children to get out of a psychological attachment problem. Caitlin Becker joining me DailyMail.com. What is she talking about? She's talking about this woman named Nancy Thomas and Nancy Thomas is a self-described parenting expert who encourages or advocates something called attachment therapy which is I mean the psychologist can definitely jump in on that it's not great but the thing that Nancy Thomas talked about were things like swaddling. And according to her website, Nancy Thomas has actually talked about something called RAD, which is reactive attachment disorder, which basically talks about how the child looks at people like enemies and they're manipulative and they can abuse people. There's no medical background here. There's absolutely, this woman is not a doctor. She's not a psychiatrist. She's not a therapist.

She has no expertise and she advocates really dangerous parenting practices. Okay, hold on. Karen Stark, is that who you're talking about, Karen? That's exactly who I'm talking about, Nancy. Well, I guess the child does look at everybody like they're an enemy because his own parents are torturing him. But listen, I want you to know this about her, that she has a note in this workshop may be considered inhumane and unethical by many child protective agencies and can result in an investigation. What moron would read that and follow it when that's written at the bottom? This can land you at defects.

Wait, and Nancy, this woman, this woman, Nancy Thomas, wants nothing to do with this case. She was contacted by a local reporter in the area, and she released a statement basically saying she has no knowledge of the incident, can't give a comment, and will assist law enforcement. So Nancy Thomas is trying to distance herself from this couple. Is her website still up? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yes, it is. I'm very surprised to hear that.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're learning more. Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack at CrimeOnline.com. On January 6th, one day after Skylar Wilson was taken to Brenner Children's Hospital and nearly one month after his former foster mother filed a complaint with social services fearing for his life, the Surrey County Department of Social Services contacted the Surrey County Sheriff's Office about Skylar Wilson. A doctor explained to a detective with the Surry County Sheriff's Office that Skylar had a hypoxic brain injury. This is caused with a restriction that prevents oxygen to the brain.

According to the arrest warrant, Jody Wilson was using a swaddling technique learned from a self-described professional therapeutic parent, Nancy Thomas. The doctor, who had previously spoken to Joseph Wilson, told the detective that Skylar's brain injuries were consistent with too much restriction used during this so-called swaddling technique plus the exorcisms plus the withholding of food dr tim gallagher joining me out of florida the founder of the international forensic medicine death investigation conference. What is hypoxia or hypoxic brain injury? Hypoxic brain injury is when there is a lack of oxygen that goes to the brain. The brain is very, the brain cells, the individual brain cells are very oxygen hungry. And once they are deprived

of this oxygen, they simply die. If enough of these brain cells die because of lack of oxygen, the patient will go into a coma, and then ultimately they will die from that. Guys, we are also floored with the possibility that this child could have been saved. Take a listen to more from CrimeOnline.com. The former foster parent of Skylar and his brother remained active in their lives even after they left her care and were adopted by the Wilsons. She would check in at least every other month to see how they were doing. Jody Wilson told her about the swaddling, pouching, food restriction, refusal of Skylar's brother to walk by himself, the gating of Skylar in a room for excessive alone time, and the exorcisms of both children.

Skylar's former foster mother talked to the Surry County Department of Social Services about what she had been told, and she was directed to make a formal report. She filed that complaint that very day, December 7, 2022. I've never heard the phrase pouching. What is pouching? To you, Karen Stark, or to you, joining us from DailyMail.com, with us is Caitlin Becker. What is pouching? It seems like one of, you know,

honestly, I did a little bit of research on this and not a lot of stuff comes up. And it seems like something you would do in attachment, this attachment therapy, another form of restricting. And it almost sounds like a kangaroo pouch. Oh, that is what it is. That's what I thought of to start with, but I was hoping I was wrong. So apparently they put the children or Skylar, at least, in some sort of a pouch and leave him. OK, everything I'm hearing sounds like extreme psychological torture, Karen Stark. Oh, without a doubt, Nancy. These techniques, she has a whole description, the woman that they were listening to, of sitting on a child and staying on the child until the child stops screaming. And this is something that she is advocating, that these children need to be taught that the parents are in charge.

And they have to say please and thank you and may I and an alarm on their room alarm in their room at night so they cannot leave under any circumstances let me ask you Caitlin Becker let me make sure I understand the timeline so Skyler goes to the hospital and dies. He goes on January the 5th or 6th, I believe. He dies on the 9th. Is it true, did I hear this correctly, that the foster mom who had Skylar and his brother before the defendants adopted him, she filed a complaint with DFAX on December 7.

So two days after Skylar died and then two days after he was first, I think twice this woman reached out, this former foster parent to express concern about how Jody and Joe Wilton were parenting Skylar and his brother. You know, Kurt and Ermi, sometimes I just want to put dynamite under defects and blow the whole thing up. She first reported about exorcisms, which you heard Dr. Bob Larson explaining about restricting food and restraining and swaddling on December 7. The boy went into convulsions on Jan 6. He died a few days later in the hospital. And defects did nothing, Curt and Armie.

Yeah, and that's really where the problem lies, because this whole tragedy would have been preventable. No matter what we dressed it up as alternative therapy, the food deprivation, the movement restriction, all these supports and straps and braces that were readily found when they went into the home could easily have been found if there was an intervention beforehand. During these three or four weeks between the initial report and the death, this could probably have been prevented. Well, it wasn't just the foster parent, the death, this could probably have been prevented. Well, it wasn't just the foster parent, the mom, the foster mom who suspected. She did something

about it. I can't say the same for the neighbors. Take a listen to Madison Forsey Fox 8. One neighbor who didn't want to show her face on camera couldn't stop crying as she talked about four-year-old Skyler and wondered if she missed signs of abuse. But they were just so pale, so white, so tiny. I always wondered, but you don't know. One thing that sticks with her, not seeing Skyler outside as often before she learned of his death. It breaks my heart because somebody would take a child that they're trying to raise and all of a sudden they pick that one child to hurt. because somebody would take a child that they're trying to raise, and all of a sudden they picked that one child to hurt.

You know, I first noticed that when I was prosecuting. Oh, I was having to retry a murder case that had gone up on appeal long before I, when I was still in law school. And I met the family of the victim, and they were all adults now. And one of the female adults had been out of a huge family of like 12 children, had been the one that was beaten and molested and mistreated. None of the others. I didn't know what that meant. But now, thanks a lot to Karen Stark explaining it to me,

very often one child will be singled out. Cheryl McCollum joining me from Cold Case Investigative Research Institute. Cheryl, what about that? Now the neighbors are crying, boo-hoo, wah-wah, but they did nothing. They did nothing, and now the child's dead. Nancy, it's like I said before, you could tell from the outside of the house something wasn't exactly right. There's no way you would ever think five children lived there. But I will tell you something that really shocks me is when you look at what the police confiscated from the home, there are binders and notebooks and SD cards from cameras and surveillance cameras and laptops. This woman kept a journal, a living diary of what she was doing to these children, and she couldn't hide it. She even told the foster mother what she was doing.

She wasn't trying to hide this at all from anybody. Just imagine the terror that that little boy lived through, endured until his death. What a horrible death. Being restrained, unable to move, unable to breathe, face down on the floor, secured with duct tape, having lived through. The Lord only knows how many exorcisms. This was a slow murder. A slow murder. To Caitlin Becker, senior reporter, DailyMail.com, where does the case stand now? Well, the couple was arrested and charged. They

have had their first appearance and they're expected back in court in March. But Nancy, there may be a little bit of a delay here. One of Dr. Joe Wilson's former employees is in touch with the Wilson family, and she said to a local reporter that they're on their fourth attorney, possibly their fifth attorney coming soon. So there could be a delay based on representation. Guys, take a listen to Grace Holland, WFNY. Joseph and Jody Wilson are facing murder charges in the death of four-year-old Skylar Wilson. There's a stack of search warrants related to this case. The Surry County Sheriff's Office and the SBI are looking for evidence at the home, workplaces, and Department of Social Services records relating to possible reports of abuse. This all started when Joseph Wilson called 911

reporting that Skyler was having a seizure. A Surry County detective says a woman could be heard in the background saying, it's my fault. EMS says the child wasn't breathing when they arrived and he was taken to the ICU at Brenner Children's Hospital. He died days later. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.