Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - EXPLOSIVE DOCS CRACK EPSTEIN SEX PROBE WIDE OPEN, CLIENTS REVEAL

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Explosive documents set to crack the Epstein sex probe wide open. Clients list revealed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. New Epstein files are teased to be released as Attorney General Pam Bondi promises many more files to come.

Starting point is 00:00:30 At this hour, we are learning that Presidential Counselor Alina Haba says that prosecutions will absolutely go forward based on what is discovered in the Epstein files. But who, what, where, when, why? Listen to Habba. Do you think by releasing information from these files, we are likely to see criminal actions being taken? Absolutely. There is Habba speaking to our friend Pers morgan on piers morgan uncensored and she's joined with the u.s attorney general pam bondy a source had told me where the documents were

Starting point is 00:01:15 being kept southern district of new york shock so we got them all by hopefully all of them friday at 8 a.m thousands of pages of documents that from our friends at Fox News that is the US Attorney General the top cop for our entire country now they are saying that documents have been stored I don't know what that means in the Southern District of New York now she said shocker I'm not sure what she means by that. I can only suppose so I'll move forward. Stored. Why are they being stored? I don't understand that because let me go straight out to Andrea Lewis joining me now partner at Searcy Law Firm in Palm Beach, Florida but for my purposes former felony prosecutor in Palm Beach County, when Epstein's sweetheart deal, it makes

Starting point is 00:02:07 me sick, gag. When I think about that deal, I should probably hold you personally responsible, but since you weren't there at the time, I guess I can't. But why would these documents be stored? Why wouldn't they be evaluated, analyzed, to determine if there are other co-defendants other than Epstein and his pimp, Ghislaine Maxwell? Well, Nancy, you just hit the nail on the head. And to be clear, I was not at the office when this case was prosecuted, thankfully, because I do believe that this was a serious miscarriage of justice. He should have never gotten the sentence that he got. It was ludicrous. That said, to your question about this evidence being stored, well, naturally, anytime there's a case like this, you would expect that the evidence is being held

Starting point is 00:02:59 somewhere, but it's also generally available on electronic format. We can see that in the evidence log that we've received. All that they have given us so far is this evidence log detailing that there are, in fact, photos, videos, witness statements, a laundry list of other evidence out there that has never been disclosed to this day. Let's just cut through it. Who do you think that Epstein and Jelaine Maxwell, his henchperson, are hanging out with nuns and priests and virgins? They're rich. They're child molesters. They're trafficking young girls.

Starting point is 00:03:38 So who do rich people hang out with, Andrea? Other rich people. Who do you think? I mean, deduction. Who is going to be in the Epstein files? Other rich and influential people just like him. That's why they're sitting on it. That's why. Well, that's exactly why someone needs to go through them and they need to stop talking about it and they need to stop saying they're going to be prosecuting people and then actually do it. Guys, you just heard Alina Haba speaking to our friend Piers Morgan and you heard the AG Pam Bondi saying, we're on it, we're on it. The files have been stored in the Southern District of New York. What else does she have to say? Director Patel is going to get us a detailed report as to why the FBI withheld all of those documents.

Starting point is 00:04:34 That from our friends at Fox News. So they're going through it. All right. Now, let me understand. Sydney Sumner joining me, CrimeOnline.com. Epstein died years ago at MDC Metropolitan Detention Center how long have they had since Epstein died to go through these files Nancy now we're going on six years that they've had the opportunity to go through these files, release them to the American public, and prosecute people who are involved in this horrific sex trafficking ring. So years have passed. You know, I'm going to

Starting point is 00:05:12 circle back in just a moment to Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, a former associate warden at MDC. A lot, a lot of murky water surrounding the death of Epstein. Just think about it. Think about it. And I'm not a conspiracy theorist at all, all right? I don't think people can keep their yap shut long enough to maintain a conspiracy like OJ was framed, didn't happen. However, in this case, what could be the delay in making these files public? What could possibly be the delay in making these files public?

Starting point is 00:05:45 What could possibly be the delay? And us finding out who were the cohorts and possible co-defendants of Jeffrey Epstein and his very wide-ranging child sex trafficking ring. Well, we know a little bit more. Listen. After just two weeks in office, Attorney General Pam Bondi announces the release of documents related to the late financier and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Bondi says that the delay in releasing the documents is due to efforts to

Starting point is 00:06:17 redact sensitive information to protect the over 200 victims' privacy. The so-called Phase 1 release is expected to include flight logs and names of individuals associated with Epstein. Okay, joining me is Dr. Kimberly Melman Orozco, Executive Director, Freedom Light Human Trafficking Expert Witness, author of Hidden in Plain Sight, America's Slaves of the New Millennium. You have uncovered so much regarding sex trafficking and child sex trafficking. I've got a pretty good feeling at this point, Epstein's been dead for years. Many say murdered in MDC because they, they, the elusive they, did not want their names dragged through the mud.

Starting point is 00:07:08 So I've got a pretty good feeling doctor that at this point the victims really don't care if their names are out there as long as they can get justice. Who do you think is being protected by not releasing these documents? The victims? Because I'm not buying that. Well, Nancy, first, I do disagree with you. I do think that the victims still do want some anonymity. They do want their names protected, at least some of them. The issue here is, and this is something that is very, very key. Some of these victims recruited others. Admittedly, this is in the media. They recruited others for payment. Some of them were able to rebuff his sexual advances and instead requested, recruited their friends.

Starting point is 00:07:45 So where do you draw the line between victim and co-conspirator? And that's an issue that they're going to have and they're going to face. The issue that I find that's very specific. Well, I've got a pretty good idea where to draw the line, Dr. Kimberly Mellom Orozco. And that would be anyone that was ever forced into sex or lured into sex with Jeffrey Epstein, I would consider a victim. Dr. Bethany Marshall with me, psychoanalyst, you have analyzed the victims of child sex trafficking many, many times. And these are children as young as 14 and I believe younger, if Epstein or Jelaine Maxwell got one of these little girls to go speak to her little girlfriends, I still consider the original girl to be a victim.

Starting point is 00:08:32 I do too, because Jeffrey Epstein groomed them. And when a victim is groomed, they lose perspective. And also, the grooming takes place in the context of an interpersonal relationship, where they maybe felt that Epstein was going to be mad at them, disappointed in them, maybe withdraw financial reward, punish them in some way. So that strong, strong attachment system and confusion over whether they're to blame or he's to blame is going to drive them towards behaviors that they would not normally engage in. Dr. Bethany, I feel sick right now. I think I just saw a picture of Epstein and Jelaine Maxwell. Did he actually have on one of those big bear hats that the guards at Buckingham Palace

Starting point is 00:09:19 have? Oh, no, that's just Jelaine. Oh, my goodness when i think about these two rolling in money multi-millionaires homes all over the world mansions all over the world and who do they pick out dr kimberly melman orco. They pick out runaways. They pick out children, girls from single parent homes where the mom's working. Like I would come home from school,

Starting point is 00:09:52 nobody would be there. Both my parents were working. But these girls only had one parent at home coming from a broken family, feeling bad about themselves, blaming themselves possibly for the breakup. They targeted girls with problems and those were their victims. These two multi-millionaires that were born with silver

Starting point is 00:10:14 spoons up their rear ends target these little girls. There they are in their private plane. You know what? Bite me. Why do they target little girls like this, doctor? Nancy, this is a common tactics that is used by anyone looking to victimize another. They look for a child or a person who has a void in their life. If they look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what do they need? Are they housing insecure? Food insecure? Do they have low self-esteem? Do they have the desire for self-actualization? They're making false promises. The reality is, though, he also bribed them with money. And it wasn't just little girls and children. It was adults who were

Starting point is 00:10:55 recruiting others. And those adults also self-proclaimed to be victims. So that's the issue here when we're looking through these records. Yes, I agree with you 100%. Any child who is manipulated by a grown adult is a victim either of statutory rape or sexual assault, absolutely bar none. But the problem here is what happens when adults are being victimized, but also recruiting others. And so this is a more complex case than I think the public is led to believe. And the other issue is there are documents redacted that we should be able to see. For example, the records related to Jeffrey Epstein's first suicide attempt, supposedly. It's being redacted for B7A. That redaction is because of an ongoing investigation. And this is suggestive that it was a possible assault

Starting point is 00:11:47 and he was reporting that. And also there are other things that are very suspicious. His roommate, his cellmate is no longer alive. These are issues that do need to be further explored. And we need people like you to dig into and hold these governmental employees accountable for releasing this information. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Speaking of Epstein's death, renowned experts have stated, it's not a suicide. You know know i'm just a trial lawyer but i do respect

Starting point is 00:12:28 medical examiners and we're shortly going to be joined by dr kendall crowns but before i dig up espy epstein's dead body let's just go back in time in our time machine remember when attorney general william barr insisted there will be justice? Listen. This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit with Epstein. Any co-conspirators should not rest easy. Mm-hmm. Well, there's sleeping light logs right now.

Starting point is 00:13:00 That's from our friends at CBS. That was then Attorney General William Barr insisting there's going to be justice. All of you co-defendants, you better not sleep easy tonight. Well, they are because years have passed and the feds have done nothing. Why? Because Epstein's rich. All of his friends were rich and influential. He was flying around presidents, megalomaniacs, huge, huge business tycoons. Names we all know very well were in his quote little black book it's disgusting and here is former u.s attorney jumping on the bandwagon attorney alex acosta we did what we did because we wanted to see epstein go to jail so he needed

Starting point is 00:13:57 to go to jail alexander acosta became u.s. attorney for the Southern District of Florida in 2005. That's the same year that Palm Beach police began a 13-month undercover investigation of Jeffrey Epstein after allegations of sex trafficking minors. Epstein was indicted, but Acosta arranged a plea deal without informing the victims. That allowed Epstein to plead guilty to a single state charge of solicitation and procuring a minor for prostitution. The FBI delivers truckloads of files to be declassified in the Jeffrey Epstein case. According to the top cop of this country, Pamela Bondi, that's happening right now. I will believe it when I see it because this dates back all the way to a secret deal by the prosecutor down in Palm Beach, where Epstein got basically a camp. He could leave

Starting point is 00:14:54 whenever he wanted to with a valet, a driver, and nobody said a word. After one mom comes forward and says, he raped my little girl, and we still don't have justice. Has everybody forgotten what happened? Because I haven't. You know what? Let me jog the federal government's memory. Listen. Sometimes he would just in front of them and rub his nipples. Sometimes he would have intercourse with them. Sometimes he'd make them, you know, give them. It kind of worked like a pyramid scheme. Ghislaine brought me in. I brought other girls in.

Starting point is 00:15:34 Those girls brought other girls in. That's where our friends at Miami Herald. And you were seeing Virginia Roberts-Giffray speaking about what happened to her when she was a little girl. A little girl about age 14. Yeah, rubbing his nipples in front of a little girl. And we find out just who the victim is. I had been a runaway and I had been abused before. So to have this, you know, ability to get educated and do something with my life, I thought I was turning around. That from our friends at Miami Herald. But that turning point turned into this. She is instructed to disrobe as Maxwell and Epstein

Starting point is 00:16:18 are both naked. She describes Maxwell and Epstein touching her and that she went along with it. Virginia says, I let them abuse me and I did what they told me to do. Dr. Bethany Marshall, she's an adult now, but it still sounds to me like she's blaming herself. I let them abuse me. That's not the dynamic. No, no, no, no. It was a power differential. It was two on one. She was just a little girl. Children notoriously, they don't know when they're abused if the act is coming from themselves or from the other person. So this confusion is persisting into adult life, but Nancy may persist for the rest of her life. Victims don't just recover miraculously. They blame themselves throughout the lifespan. They are

Starting point is 00:17:05 subject to disturbed relationship patterns, sometimes drug abuse, PTSD, flashbacks. So, you know, the fact that she's coming forward amidst all these symptoms that are persisting for her is pretty remarkable. You know, Dr. Bethany, when you mentioned flashbacks, a lot of people don't believe in suppressed memories. They're real. And I'll give you an example. One of my best friends within the district attorney's office, just a brilliant, brilliant legal mind. I had known her for three or four years. She started having flashbacks of being molested by a family member. It destroyed her marriage. She ended up getting a divorce. They had a child that was in, she'll go back and forth between the parents, and her life was turned upside down when she remembered the molestation. And even now, you hear Jeffrey talking about,

Starting point is 00:17:59 I let them molest me, as if somehow it was her fault. Okay, so you've got a secret deal with Acosta down in Palm Beach. And then you've got Barr saying, we will seek justice. Well, that never happened. Now you've got Bondi saying, we're releasing the files. Well, when? When will there be justice? You know, I'm just very curious too. Dr. Kimberly Melman Orozco, Executive Director, Freedom Light Human Trafficking, expert witness, author of Hidden in Plain Sight, America's Slaves of the New Millennium. Do you recall the case that you analyzed of Spider, a.k.a. Dr. James Joseph. So James Joseph was on America's Most Wanted Investigation Discovery, brutally, brutally trafficked multiple women. He also got a sweetheart deal the first time he was prosecuted. I think he got 18 months despite violently, violently trafficking women. It wasn't until years later, as he continued to commit his crimes, where he was prosecuted in California, I served as an expert witness both to the grand jury for

Starting point is 00:19:10 his indictment and at trial where he was sentenced to life in prison. So when they talk about this sweetheart deal for Epstein, it wasn't really out of the norm for that time, unfortunately. Unfortunately, there are numerous alleged traffickers and persons committing crimes against children who are getting away with slap on the hand sentences because it's being perceived as difficult to prosecute and one key point here nancy is that epstein was atypical of a trafficker he was paying his victims typically in trafficking situations you have talked about in your show numerous times following the money, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, especially in trafficking situations. Most of the time for trafficking,

Starting point is 00:19:53 the money is flowing from the victim to the trafficker. It was the complete opposite in this situation, and therefore it might have been perceived as difficult to prosecute. The thing that is extremely important here, though, was the concealing this from the alleged victims, concealing this from the girls that he did abuse and waiting until afterwards. I think that is the key problem here. Unless Bondi comes through on this, this will be another case of the rich and powerful prevailing on those weaker, less cunning than they are, specifically these girls that were raped and sex trafficked by Epstein and his wealthy and influential friends. When will the documents be released?

Starting point is 00:20:43 Do you really think they're sitting on them to protect the victims? Because I don't. This goes so far back. In fact, I remember when renowned attorney David Boyce, who was Virginia Jafray's lawyer, spoke out. It doesn't matter how many contacts you have. It doesn't matter who your family is. It doesn't matter how many um contacts you have doesn't matter who your family is doesn't matter how much wealth you have uh you're not above the law and that's where our friends at itv news that was david boys when he represented virginia jiffrey he says it doesn't matter how rich you are how powerful you are but apparently it may Despite a long-awaited document release,

Starting point is 00:21:26 many files remain secret in Jeffrey Epstein's contentious sex trafficking scandal. Why? Why? Why are the files secret? Trump promised the files would be released, but they haven't been. Why? Why, Bondi? Now listen to presidential counselor Alina Haba with our friend Piers Morgan. I don't see how it's not shocking that there were so many individuals that were hidden and kept secret and not been held accountable. I don't like it, but I'm not shocked because this has been going on since the get-go with Epstein. That's where our friend Piers Morgan uncensored

Starting point is 00:22:09 and more from HABA. You have to hold individuals who are indeed rapists accountable. We have to have them tried, in my opinion. Yes, okay. Of course they have to be tried, but the files have to be released first so we can determine who, if anyone, is going to be tried.

Starting point is 00:22:28 And we're not getting out of Epstein because he either committed suicide or was killed at MDC. That from our friend at Piers Morgan, Piers Morgan Uncensored. And Bondi, the new U.S. Attorney General, speaks out. You're looking at these documents going, these aren't all the Epstein files. You know, there were flight logs, there were names and victims' names. And we're going, where's the rest of the stuff?

Starting point is 00:22:52 Bondi, with our friends over at Fox News speaking out, yeah, where is the rest of the stuff? Well, apparently sitting in boxes at the Southern District of New York's U.S. Attorney's Office. That's a mystery right there. But it goes on and on and on, seemingly a never-ending quest to keep these names secret. Sydney Sumner joining me, CrimeOnline.com. Sydney,

Starting point is 00:23:14 what are the files? What do we think is in the files that have been so carefully hidden from us? Nancy, we've seen flight logs, a contact list, a new evidence list, and what prosecutors are calling a masseuse list that contained 254 named victims. But what we expect to see is a client list. That's what everybody wants to know. We have his contacts,

Starting point is 00:23:42 but this is just somebody's phone contacts. It doesn't necessarily incriminate any of the people that are named in that contact list. What we do want is the client list. People who actively participated in this sex trafficking ring, knowing that the women there providing massages were underage. It is known that on Epstein's private plane, he would ferry underage girls along with high profile U.S. citizens and others to his private island. For what? To play a game of checkers? No, that's not why. Speaking of this so-called client list, listen. While many were expecting Epstein's client list, hoping it would contain bombshell implications,

Starting point is 00:24:29 the majority of the roughly 200-page document dump is made up of previously disseminated information, like Epstein's contact list. Among famous names in Epstein's contact list are rockers Mick Jagger and Courtney Love, Michael Jackson, actors Alec Baldwin, Dustin Hoffman, and Ralph Fiennes, and supermodels Naomi Campbell and Liz Hurley. Others include Harvey Weinstein's brother, Bob Weinstein, David Koch, Alan Dershowitz, and both Ivana and Ivanka Trump. Several political figures are also named, former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, John Kerry, John Huntsman, Senator Ted Kennedy, his sister-in-law Ethel Kennedy, and her daughter, Kerry Kennedy. Okay, I doubt Ethel Kennedy or Kerry Kennedy

Starting point is 00:25:12 were involved in child sex trafficking. I doubt that Alan Dershowitz, my colleague, is involved in sex trafficking. Maybe none of these people, but isn't it true? Dr. Bethany Marshall, people like Epstein insinuated himself into circles of power and privilege. That does not mean everybody on his client list has done anything wrong. I mean, do you really think Kerry Kennedy and Ethel Kennedy had anything to do with this? Hell no. But in all of these documents, you know there's probative evidence.

Starting point is 00:25:54 So I'm not surprised that these rich and powerful people are in his list. But you know, Nancy, from another perspective, we know that pedophiles congregate together. They congregate online, they disseminate photos, they exchange information. So I don't understand why law enforcement would go online to track pedophiles through their contact lists, but Jeffrey Epstein's contact list is exempt from the public. That doesn't make sense. I mean, I agree with you that Ethel Kennedy and some of

Starting point is 00:26:22 these people obviously did not know what was going on, but there are many wolves among the sheep. And if you did not expose this contact list, then we don't know who those people are. And I just want to say all those smiley photos of Epstein and Gillen Maxwell, they're not smiling because they're a couple. They're smiling because they're recruiting people with money and all the resources are flowing up and they're in there with all these high net worth individuals and that is making them so, so, so happy. You know, to Andrea Lewis joining us,

Starting point is 00:26:59 partner of Searcy Law Firm in Palm Beach, excellent trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor in Palm Beach, excellent trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor in Palm Beach. There were grand jury tapes that have just recently been revealed, grand jury tapes that the evidence was heard in front of the grand jury that were recorded as is customary. Are you surprised based on what you've learned from those grand jury tapes, that these documents today, these years later, are being kept secret? The victims who testified were asked a series of questions about essentially being prostitutes and really

Starting point is 00:27:42 almost in an accusatory manner, almost incriminating them in terms of some criminal activity. And so what came of that, of course, and what everyone has seen in these transcripts was that the prosecutors knew, the police knew, even back then, what Epstein was up to and how terrible what he was involved in. Yet, we know what ended up happening. So, no. I mean, at this point, obviously, that should be a clear indicator that further investigation is warranted and that there are other people out there who need to be imprisoned. And, of course, what she just said, what Andrea Lewis just said, is critical. Because when you force a little girl to be a prostitute,

Starting point is 00:28:26 when Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell forced them to be prostitutes, there had to be a John. There had to be a John. Who are the Johns? Why aren't the files being released? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Here's a little bit of what we know that was seized from Epstein's $77 million Manhattan mansion. Epstein's over-the-top $77 million Manhattan mansion has eight stories, 19,000 square feet, 40 rooms, and a heated sidewalk.

Starting point is 00:29:08 When the FBI raided the home, they found a lead-lined panic room beneath the stairs and a life-size female doll hanging from a chandelier. Inside a hidden safe, agents found $70,000 in cash, 48 loose diamonds and other jewelry, a bin of hard drives, and a passport from a foreign country with a picture of Epstein under another name. There were binders upon binders of CDs filled with lewd photos of young girls. The Department of Justice releases phase one of declassified Epstein files, as more documents are expected. According to the top cop in this country, Pam Bondi, and her counselor, Alina Haba, counselor to the president, there, quote, absolutely will be prosecutions. Question, when?

Starting point is 00:29:55 All the documents haven't been released. They've been in storage. That's a nice way to put it. In the Southern District of New York, U.S. Attorney's Office. Now, I want you to hear from the horse's mouth the U.S. Attorney General Pamela Bondi. Director Patel is going to get us a detailed report as to why the FBI withheld all of those documents. That's my friends over at Fox News and I can't wait. Do you think that detailed explanation about why the documents were withheld will ever

Starting point is 00:30:27 see the light of day? You know what? I don't care why. I just want to know that justice is being pursued. Let's get back to the fact that we're missing one main witness, and that would be Jeffrey Epstein. Why? Why is he dead? Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, former associate warden at MDC, author, Who Are You? See It, Say It, Seize It, now president of A New Daylight Foundation. You know, many experts, not just me, question whether it was a suicide why did that happen dr hendricks based on the factors of what we what we know it was a colossal failure unfortunately by the agency that i worked for for a number of years with the staff you know not tending to counting and being accountable for uh mr uh okay speak english speak english who did what apparently he committed suicide and it was over three hours

Starting point is 00:31:28 before they actually went and checked the cell they're supposed to do 30 minute rounds committed suicide you know dr duane hendricks i really respect you but aren't you just a little embarrassed right now apparently he committed suicide like we don't really know because the guards that were supposed to watch him every 30 minutes were shopping online and asleep yes and they should have treated him like they eventually treated jelaine maxwell when she was at the mdc not mcc uh and they should have had staff sitting in front of his cell monitoring his all of his actions and his behaviors. When I was a correctional officer back in the late 90s, you know, had the I was I was with Ted Kaczynski there at FDC Dublin. And they put two cameras, they put cameras in his cell and they probably should have did that with Epstein. The other failure in my opinion

Starting point is 00:32:26 You know what, again, I deeply respect you and what you're doing now but coulda, woulda, shoulda ain't helping me tonight. I'm trying to figure out, was he murdered or did he commit suicide because a lot of renowned experts not lawyers like myself but medical

Starting point is 00:32:42 examiners say he did not commit suicide, which leads me to concerns about Jelaine Maxwell, the only other potential witness in this case. Oh, here we have the attorney general, William Barr, weighing in. I was appalled and indeed the whole department was and frankly angry to learn of the MCC's failure to adequately secure this prisoner. Appalled, shocked, angry. That's my friends at CBS.

Starting point is 00:33:15 But yet the main witness against potential co-defendants in those files is now dead. Darn, what a co-inky-dink the way that worked out. Joining me, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. He is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, launching Launching a new podcast, DOA, Dead on Arrival, March 7. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I know there is evidence supporting both sides of this, but what tends to suggest this was not a suicide? So there's a couple problems with it, the injuries he has. The neck structures, the thyroid cartilage, which is right about here, and the hyoid bone, which is about here.

Starting point is 00:34:07 He has fractures, two fractures in the thyroid cartilage, one in the hyoid bone. And it's odd for him to have so many fractures with just a simple hanging. Usually with a simple hanging, the ligature kind of pulls up on the neck, compresses the structure, and causes them to die especially with a large uh sheet type hanging and what we're seeing is with these fractures is he potentially has got this ligature wrapped around his neck pulling back and causing these fractures and then if he moves it can cause another fracture so it's odd that he has these two fractures, and then you throw in the fact that he has contusions on his wrists. Was he restrained? You have a couple of findings that make it very strange that it could be a suicide, but it also could be a homicide, and it's just not very clear.

Starting point is 00:34:58 When you say there were factors that were strange, I could not agree more, but to what are you referring? The contusions on the wrists, I don't feel that there are the bruises on the wrists. I don't feel they're being very clear about what those look like or how they are, because his hands could have committed suicide is to tie the binding that he created to the bunk bed. He obviously didn't have any platform high enough for a traditional hanging. He would have to have tied that and then just leaned forward and let the pressure asphyxiate him how likely is that correct i mean that's a type of the way it is he can't suspend himself or anything of that nature he's going to have to lean into it and again that's going to be a slow kind of pressure on his neck so these fractures that we have are very very odd that he has so many fractures from dr kindle crowns they don't fit, Dr. Kendall Crowns. They don't fit, do they, with suicide? It is odd. It doesn't really fit. So I'd have to have more explanation, more information to even make a decision on that. I'm not a Republican and I'm not a Democrat, but I beg you, Trump, do not pardon Jelaine Maxwell.

Starting point is 00:36:21 Don't do it. Huge miscarriage of justice. Joining me now, special guest Bill Daley, former FBI investigator, security expert. Bill Daley, you know the ins and outs of the feds like the back of your hand. What is happening? When can we get the names in these documents? Well, Nancy, certainly there's been a basically a truckload of documents now brought down to the Attorney General's office and they're going through them. There will be some time to kind of pull this all together because there's going to be

Starting point is 00:36:50 various investigative elements. There's going to be interviews. There's going to be grand jury statements. There's going to be other information out there, whether it's hard drives, whether it's videos, whatever documentation also was found, whether in one of the homes or all the homes. So it's going to take

Starting point is 00:37:06 a while to pull it together. You know, one of the things that always has troubled me about this case, many things, certainly it was the circumstances around Mr. Epstein's death in the correctional facility in Lower Manhattan, but it was also around other people who either material witnesses or those people who aided and abetted. There are many people who are involved in this case, whether it happens to be people who are attending at the Epstein homes, whether it's pilots or crew on the aircraft, who both probably knew, saw, were aware of what was happening, saw these young women being brought on,

Starting point is 00:37:37 saw some of the perpetrators, some of the victimizers, also being transported around. Those people who I'm not too sure why we never heard either statements about them or whether they themselves were complicit in some ways, if not given a pardon. Bill Daley, former FBI investigator, forensic photography expert, security expert.

Starting point is 00:37:59 Do you ever just get sick to your stomach to see how wealthy and powerful people are protected? They never face justice. Yeah, Nancy, and I think the American people also feel the same way. The new administration has run on transparency. The new FBI director has come forth saying he would be very transparent. So has the attorney general. I believe them.

Starting point is 00:38:26 I want that to happen. I want that to happen for the American people because so many of us have seen some of these cases go and come and we say, why is it always just the kind of the regular folks that you find yourselves being put in jail? And it's the other people who've sometimes very obviously committed some of these acts or certainly never held their feet to the fire from a prosecution standpoint. So in this case, I really hope that this will result in some of these victims, these people who have been to light, is that her life could be at risk, whether in or outside the confines of a penitentiary. You know, I'm glad you brought that up, Bill Daly.

Starting point is 00:39:13 To Dr. Dwayne Hendricks, former associate warden, MDC. Dr. Hendricks, right now, Ghislaine Maxwell is in the FCI Florida Correctional Institute in Tallahassee, and it is low security. If someone could murder Epstein in high security, what about low security, Dr. Hendricks? Well, one thing, anybody can be killed anywhere, whether it's in a correctional facility, whether it's maximum or minimum or anywhere. But I will say if there were any threats or if there were any credible threats to her life, you know, the agency does have an excellent intel office. They do a lot of work with other agencies to include the FBI. Their staff are members of the Joint Task Force.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Dr. Hendricks, didn't you just hear Dr. Kimberly Melliman Orozco state that Epstein was in fear for his life at the time he died? So who is going, nobody protected him. Who is going to protect Jelaine maxwell it'll be the same people uh different staff it'll be the same agency of staff and other law enforcement personnel if if there's any credible threats they will place her in special housing and if they would need to

Starting point is 00:40:37 move her to a different facility uh they would do so at that time but But again, anyone can be touched at any time, unfortunately. And if she feels she's in fear of her life, she needs to at any time, she needs to report that to staff and she needs to check, try to get herself checked into special housing or removed from that facility. So, and that's just how that works. The last we heard of is Elaine Maxwell. She was whining about her Thanksgiving dinner. What about it, Sydney Sumner? Yeah, Nancy. So Maxwell is apparently claiming that she has limited funds and her commissary is empty, meaning she went hungry on Thanksgiving Day. I find that very hard to believe. It may not be a private chef like she's used to with Epstein, but I find it very difficult to believe that the inmates wouldn't

Starting point is 00:41:25 get fed at the FCI. You know what? Maybe she'd like a little bump up to a better jail in exchange for her testimony. Think about it, Maxwell. We wait as God willing, justice unfolds, and now we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Jacob Pickett, Boone County Sheriff's, Indiana, 34. Shot and killed in the line of duty. Survived by wife-turned-widow Jennifer, sons Lincoln and Wade. American hero, Deputy Sheriff Jacob Pickett. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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