Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Eyewitness Reveals Gabby Murder Scene Details

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

As the search goes on for Brian Laundrie, Gabby Petito's family is traveling to Wyoming to bring her ashes home. We learn that the a search of the back side of Carlton Reserve resumed today. In the meantime, a former FBI agent says that authorities have probably already named a suspect in Gabby Petito’s death, although the person has yet to be named publicly. This comes as the Teton County coroner reveals that Petito died of manual strangulation. So far, 23-year-old Brian Laundrie has been named a person of interest in Petito’s death, but now that her death is known to be caused by strangulation, authorities may have named him as a suspect behind closed doors to a grand jury. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills) Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Mahsa Saeidi - Investigative Reporter, WFLA-TV (Tampa), Twitter/Instagram: @MahsaWho, Facebook: "WFLAMahsa" Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Death by throttling, death by strangulation, manual strangulation. That is the COD, cause of death, for 22-year-old Gabby Petito. At this hour, we are now learning more details about the crime scene itself. What are the clues left behind? What does an eyewitness have to say about what he saw at the Gabby Petito homicide scene? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. First of all, take a listen to our friends at KSL TV.

While KSL has elected not to make that video public, we did show it to someone who had worked numerous homicides. Oh, dozens. Virtually every murder that I prosecuted, I went to the crime scene. Longtime Salt Lake County prosecutor Kent Morgan came away with distinct impressions from this scene. This is quick. This is not sitting here for five or six hours trying to figure out how to conceal a crime. He also didn't notice any obvious signs of a struggle on the ground. One of the things I've been seeing in this story is a history of these individuals getting into fights and that she attacked him. I don't see that here. All I see is one individual who suffered the damage and no evidence of injury created by her. Everything that you are hearing this veteran prosecutor,

Ken Morgan, say is important. No detail is too small to consider in this case. I recall prosecuting a serial killer, and we could never catch him. We finally got a woman's body. She was always a Jane Doe. We never knew who she was, but we could link her body to the previous killings. The location and condition of one earring of hers changed the entire scenario of how her murder occurred. One earring. You have to take each piece of evidence, even if it's just an earring, even if it's just a pair of boots. And you have to analyze where is it? Why is it there? Why are they undisturbed sitting

up or are they? Every single piece of evidence tells you something. And this crime scene must must be analyzed very, very carefully. Take a listen now to our Cut 322, also KSL TV. Listen. More than three weeks after her body was discovered in Teton County, Wyoming, new answers finally came today over what happened to Gabby Petito. You hereby find the cause and manner of death to be caused death by strangulation and manner is homicide. The coroner's four weeks when chopper five flew over the crime scene a photographer spotted the remains above ground but covered possibly by a blanket. Hiking shoes were on the ground next to the body. Covered by a blanket that means the scene was staged. Hiking boots next to the body. Were they sitting up? Were they knocked over? If they were not knocked over, what does that tell me? We also know that

Gabby's body was found just five minutes, and that's walking from where Gabby's Ford Transit had been spotted by Red Blue and Bethune, all of these facts are telling me something. They are telling me who the killer is. Again, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation Series XM 111, where crime still matters, For we want justice. With me, an all-star panel to try and make sense of what we are learning and help us digest it and interpret it and analyze it. With me, Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Renowned psychoanalysts joining us from the L.A. jurisdiction, Dr. Bethany Marshall,

star of a new Netflix series, Bling Empire. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. You can find her at ColdCaseCrimes.org. I've been in the trenches with her for well over a decade.

And I can tell you, she feels the same way I do about each individual piece of evidence. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a brand new hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart Podcast. But first, straight out to Masa Saidi, our special guest joining us, investigative reporter with WFLA-TV. Masa, I mean, it never ends. It's like drinking out of a fire hydrant every day. I think, well, okay, that's all we know for now. And within an hour,

we're slammed with more information. The search is back on for Brian Laundrie, you tell me. Now at a different entrance to Carleton Reserve, I think it's what you were telling me, 25,000 acres of swamp. Then you got to think about this too, Masi. You got to also think about Myakatchee Reserve, which is adjoining Carleton Reserve. Also, so much happening right there in florida let's go straight to masa saidi joining me wfla tv you know i hardly even know where to start but masa

what can you tell me what have you learned about the actual crime scene that we're discussing okay so the actual crime scene and that is the great place to start the most significant new information that we are learning right now. You heard it up right at the top, a chopper over the scene of photojournalists, you know, before the scene was put on lockdown, you know, first on scene was able to see that Gabby Petito's remains were above ground. So that's significant. It's significant that she was not buried. So there's photos and video of this. And it has not been released to the public. My society knows all about it.

And we're learning her body was in open sight as we have long conjectured body out in the open. Now think about it. In our front yard, I go out at night and I pick up the basketballs and the soccer balls and the, what do you say, badminton, birdies, everything that's been left out there for the day. I don't leave it out in the open overnight. I don't want it to get wet or destroyed or the dog get it. Her body is out in the open, left there. I can't even think about it.

You know, I took my mother, Masa, home to Macon the other day. She wanted to see where my father is buried and see how it looked. And I could hardly stand it. I could hardly stand looking at that cemetery plot. It just broke my heart. Just leaving her body out in the open. Okay, I'm going down a rabbit hole. Photos and videos, body out in the open.

What more do we know, Masa? So we know her body was out in the open. There was a pair of hiking shoes, apparently, that were spotted on scene. We don't know if they were right next to her, how far away from her, if they were upright or not upright. It's unclear if she was covered by a blanket initially by the perpetrator or by law enforcement. I'm unclear as to that fact. But you talk about how brutal it is to just leave her body out in the open like that. But this crime, this manual strangulation, this throttling, that was also very up close

and personal. Cheryl McCollum, very quickly to you. I don't think that a, I would want to cover the body, but I don't think a trained crime scene tech, I wouldn't cover the body. I would want to cover the body out of respect for the victim. But I don't think a trained criminal technician such as you, or really any of us on the panel, would go up to a body, which is evidence, and cover it with a blanket. I don't think that they covered that body with a blanket. I think the killer covered that body with a blanket because nobody in their right mind that's in the criminal justice system would destroy evidence by putting a blanket on top of it, potentially destroying evidence. And another thing, words matter. Words

matter. Cheryl, this says hiking shoes were on the ground next to the body. So we do know where they are. They are right next to the body. And that is significant because if they weren't knocked over and they were not askew, that tells me more about her death. Cheryl, jump in. Words do matter. If it was somebody from a crime scene, they would have used a sheet, not a blanket. The word blanket to me means it came from that van, which indicates the killer knew her. They had a connection. The fact that that person would cover her all the way or partway means he's telling on himself. He took extra time, I don't think, to try to conceal her. I think it was almost, I'm leaving her, but I do still love her and somewhat took care. We see it a lot.

I know Joe Scott has. I know you have, Nancy, where a killer will cover the victim's face because he doesn't want them to look at them because he cares about them. The fact that he would take boots off and place them. The fact that he would drag boots off and place them. The fact that he would drag her five minutes from the van. Her boots could have already been off. She could have been killed when she was getting ready for bed and she didn't have her boots. They were next to her, which is nowhere near the van. So that again takes extra time. A stranger doesn't do that. A stranger kills you, drops you, gets ghost. This person took time to get this person out of the van, put them on the blanket.

Well, you're assuming she was killed in the van. I am. I'm not. I'm not assuming a darn thing. I don't know where she was killed, but I want to follow up on what you said straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall. We've discussed this many times, as have you and I, Joe Scott Morgan. Bethany, I've had one case where a daughter killed her mother and then the mother was naked. By the way, I guess she got out of the shower. She was sleeping without her clothes on and put a wicker trash basket from the bathroom over her head. Post-mortem after the death covered her face

i've had several cases where the victim was killed outdoors and the body face was covered with leaves or twigs and branches and sometimes the whole body there are many ways to cover a body and it is actually not unusual when and only when the killer knows the victim. What is that instinctual desire to cover up the body, Dr. Bethany? You just took my word instinctual. I think that's what it is. If you had caught me 10 years ago, asked me this question, I would have said it was love and care towards the victim. Some final act of decency. I'm glad you didn't say that today. ago asked me this question, I would have said it was love and care towards the victim, some final act of decency. I'm glad you didn't say that today. Well, have you ever noticed that anybody who picks up a baby will jiggle it? Even a teenager, even somebody who's never been taught

how to care for a baby will instinctually jiggle the baby, comfort the baby, kind of know what to do. It's in our DNA to provide certain types of care towards other beings. And I think that the covering of the body with a blanket, with leaves, the wicker basket, it's somewhat instinctual. It's out of their own selfishness. They're not doing it for the victim at all. They're doing it for themselves. It's like locking the door before you leave your house. You think, did I lock the door? Did I not? It's a final act before you leave a site. And Nancy, one more thing about, I just want to say something about the hiking boots. We don't know that they're hers. You said words matter, details matter too. Whose boots are they? Guys, I want to take a listen to that sound one more time. Tyler, if you could play cut 3, 23.

While KSL was elected not to make that video public, we did show it to someone who had worked numerous homicides. Oh, dozens. Virtually every murder that I prosecuted, I went to the crime scene. Longtime Salt Lake County prosecutor Kent Morgan came away with distinct impressions from this scene. This is quick. This is not sitting here for five or six hours trying to figure out how to conceal a crime. He also didn't notice any obvious signs of a struggle on the ground. One of the things I've been seeing in this story is a history of these individuals getting into fights and that she attacked him. I don't see that here.

All I see is one individual who suffered the damage and no evidence of injury created by her. You know, it's interesting that he is still, and this is a federal trial lawyer, he's still remembering what those cops in Moab said. Moab said August 12, there's evidence, prior evidence that he's heard about where she was the attacker, but he says he's very careful to say that's not what it looks like here. Okay, straight out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan. I know you're dying to jump in.

Hit me. Yeah, I got to tell you, I'm happy this guy was a prosecutor and everything, but he's viewing these from a helicopter. I didn't know this. We no longer have to go to crime scenes. We can assess this from a great altitude. I did not ask you for sarcasm because you know what, Joe Scott, this is where we're learning about the crime scene.

All right. He can see drag marks from the sky. Is that what the story is? Thanks, Joe Scott. Straight out to Dale Carson. I don't believe that the witness said anything about seeing drag marks, but what we do know is that he sees the body. It's on the ground. It's out in the open, maybe under a tree at best. It's covered by a

blanket and there are boots beside it. And I believe Dale Carson, when he says it happened quickly and there's no sign of a struggle, to me that means the boots are still sitting up now was she killed there was she killed in the van i don't know that but i do know these facts and i am making the most of them would you join me yes absolutely and i let me just say this the covering with a blanket serves an additional purpose that we're not thinking about. People walking down that creek would look over, they would see those boots off, and they would see somebody covered by a blanket. Well, they're napping. So you'd be very quiet. You wouldn't go over there and inspect them because you think it's a camper just chilling out. So that's what caused the delay. Probably many people walked that area and saw the blanket-covered person

and just didn't think anything about it. I don't know about that because this is dispersed camping. Masa Sayidi, I hear what Dale Carson is saying. I'm not discounting it. I'm disagreeing with it. This is dispersed camping, which means you're not near a port-a-potty. You're not by an electrical or water hookup. The way very often I take our family goes RVing.

We've also gone dispersed camping. You're out in the middle of nowhere. And I don't think there's going to be hikers just happening by the tent or the camper, Masa. Yeah, this was dispersed camping. Like you said, a lot of times, from my understanding, the campers are going to try to get their own space, get away from other campsites. So it would be, I think, unlikely to assume that there was high foot traffic in the area. But I will say that her body was discovered very close to where this scene is just a very short walk away so we know there have been other campers in the area but were they at a place where they would

see the blanket i think that that would be an assumption to make well i, let's think it through, Masa. We know that Red, White, and Bethune, who are nature enthusiasts, they saw Gabby's van, and it was closed up. I think, Jackie, weren't they the ones, Masa, weren't they the ones that also saw the van back door close quickly or not? Yeah. Yeah, because one person saw it close, one person did not. My point is, they didn't see it. They did not see her body, and they were just within walking distance of her body. I mean, this is a chess game. You have to take the pieces and figure out your next move, what you are learning from your pieces.

Not take pot shots at the pieces you don't have. It's not helpful. Waste of time. Listen to this, guys, and this is something Joe Scott and Cheryl McCollum have repeatedly said. Take a listen to ARCA 319. This is Josie Carbonero, WPBF. Former FBI agent Stuart Kaplan believes DNA the Teton County coroner says he handed over to law enforcement could help take this case one step further. This can, of course, include him as being the attacker or being the responsible person for having caused Gabby Petito's death, or it could exclude him.

Him being Brian Laundrie, person of interest in the death of Gabby Petito. He's also wanted for the unauthorized use of her credit card and is still nowhere to be found. Today, marking one month after his parents say they last saw him leave for a hike at the Carlton Reserve. The case getting some backlash from the public as slow moving, but Kaplan thinks otherwise. I think they have moved this investigation quite expeditiously. Every procedural aspect of this case may be at some point subjected to questioning or challenging in a court of law. And law enforcement only has one opportunity to do it right and get it right. You know, I've rarely seen public officials actually address the details of the facts of an investigation, an ongoing investigation. So I was very surprised,

Cheryl McCollum, when we learned so much from the Teton County Coroner, Dr. Brent Blue. But here you have it. Here you have it. You, Joe Scott, Dale have been talking about this from day one. Is One, is there DNA on her body? And you're just hearing right there, he tells us the Teton County coroner handed over to law enforcement DNA. Absolutely. No question. There is absolutely going to be DNA. Whoever drug her on that blanket, whoever, you know, pulled her shirt. Why do you people keep saying dragged her on the blanket we don't know that let's stick with what we know you had to get her the killer from wherever he killed her to where he left why can you not accept that maybe they were out

looking at the stars got into a fight and, and she died. What about that? Because there would have been a sign of struggle. That ground has rocks everywhere. You would have seen, you know, evidence of her feet moving, and her clothes would have been twisted or torn. It would have looked like a fight. Remember what Joe Scott said earlier. The vantage point was from Ariel.

You can't tell from up in the chopper whether rocks had been disturbed. I mean, I don't know that it was on rocks. I don't know that. It could be on, remember, under trees? There's got to be some soil under a tree. So I want to deal with the facts that we know. Let me go back to the DNA. Okay.

She was grabbed, touched, placed. Let me go back to the DNA. Okay. She was grabbed, touched, placed. That person that killed her touched her. So I'm going to think that this is a secondary crime scene. I really do believe that. Where she is left,

to me, appears to be secondary. The way it appears that people are saying things were left appears to be secondary to me. If that's the case, there could be DNA under her arms, which MVAT could extract. Please explain what you're saying, MVAT.

The MVAT is a tool that we have. It can extract DNA off clothing, rocks, rope, broom handle. That is better than just swabbing with the bugle swab. It's basically like you always say, it's a Q-tip. This is a machine that can, you know, get us a sample that is a thousand times better than anything a bugle swab can do. Nancy, I believe also that the DNA, the sample, this unidentified sample that we know about so far could very well have to do with the fingernails. That's something I've been beating on for a while.

They did nail scrapings and nail trimmings. And if there is a place to harvest this, it will be beneath those nails because it will have been captured. You know, the nails act like a little hood, almost like a little protective hood. If she's scratching him, which we know has probably happened. Remember, there's still images that we had of him from the altercation that they had had. I think that this is something that was a reactive event. She probably put her hands on him to fend him off as he is trying to choke her out.

Strangulation. And those her nails are going to tell the tale here. It's protected. Whereas the rest of the body might be exposed to elements, the nails provide a safe haven and it's not passive DNA. This is something that was scraped away, scraped away and stored beneath the nails. That's going to be their best shot. Sheryl McCollum, I agree with Joe Scott, but where else do you believe on the body we could get DNA? Possibly this manual strangulation from the neck? Mm-hmm.

Can I jump in on that too? You're going to get it from the blanket. You'll get it from the blanket because the blanket had to come from somewhere, and it likely came from the van, and it was placed over the body. You know what this is reminding me of, Dale Carson, and I'm glad you said blanket. It's reminding me of the Tottenham Casey Anthony case, where the body is disposed of, if we're going under Cheryl McCollum's theory that this is a secondary crime scene, that she was killed in the van and left here,

where the body is disposed of very near the location of the murder. And Tottenham Casey Anthony Kelly was thrown out into the woods in a trash bag and a blanket from the home, about 12, 14 houses down from the Anthony home. Why? It was convenient for the killer, Tottenham. She had to do it quickly, just as this prosecutor is saying. this was quick, down and dirty. Same thing here. This was a convenient place next to the van, Gabby's van. And the blanket that Dale Carson is highlighting is significant because on it there may be DNA and significant it may be from the van. So the killer kills her and then goes to the van and gets a van blanket and covers her up. That doesn't make sense unless it's Brian Laundrie.

Dr. Bethany wanted to jump in, doctor. Well, Nancy, we're talking about DNA under the fingernails, but nobody's mentioning semen. I mentioned it. Not today. Oh, okay. So go ahead. Sorry. under the fingernails but nobody's mentioning semen i mentioned it not today oh but before so go ahead sorry well you know love and love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin and i if the primary crime scene was in that van uh he's not like a serial killer where he was taking her on a trip just so he could kill her there was was a buildup of hostility, resentment, tension, jealousy

that had been going on prior to the Moab incident. There was simmering resentment on his part. We don't know what it's towards, if it was because she was doing her damn life, hosting, was he jealous of all the followers she had, but something happened that night that was intimate before it turned to hatred. I don't know that I would always equate sex with love. No, it's about power, Nancy. And I got to tell you, they would have done a rape kit on her, which would have been extensive.

They could have collected some kind of sample. However, she's decomposing. So that's going to compromise things. But also to Bethany's point, if there is ejaculate there, it could very well be on the blanket. Semen, sperm. That's what he's talking about. They're checking the blanket for that as well. And I got to tell you something else that is an element here. When you're talking about blanket covering or covering of the body, there's an element of shame here, too. This could go to a sexual motivation.

If he had violated her sexually like that, it might just be guilt on his part. And that's that's in addition to the actual choking or strangulation. You're making me think of another case. Cheryl McCollum, Shanann Watts. Remember, Chris Watts had sex with Shanann and then he killed her. He had sex with her, a whole power thing. And she's, what, eight, nine months pregnant. And then he kills her. It's not unheard of.

Not unheard of. In this situation, I have to disagree, though, because what I see with Brian Laundrie is completely different he is exhibiting more of like a baby fit when he doesn't get his way when he's not as popular as her when he doesn't have the money that she has Gabby will be fully clothed there will be no seminal fluid there'll be seminal fluid it'll be on that blanket because it was in the van and that's what they've been doing in the van for some time. So it's there and it identifies the blanket coming from the van from this guy. hey masa what's happening where you are yeah i'm uh so it's actually pretty significant what's happening again we're seeing an uptick of activity at the 25 000 acre swamp that they have been searching for brian laundry now missing more than a month, according to the family's timeline.

Masa, you just made me think of something. Thank you. You know how the parents rearrange their timeline? And we've all been saying, how can you not know the last time you saw your son alive? How can you suddenly go, oh, oh, sorry, you know what? It wasn't Friday, it was Thursday. I'll tell you why I think, because their lawyer said, listen, sorry, you know what? It wasn't Friday. It was Thursday. I'll tell you why I think,

because their lawyer said, listen, people, if you don't talk to the FBI, that's fine. You can't get charged for that. But if you lie and give them false information, you're up the creek,

and you know what creek, you're up the creek without a paddle. And then suddenly their memory is jogged and they rearrange their timeline. Because if they had stuck with a lie, that would be a crime. When you lie to the feds, you might as well go ahead and hold out your wrist because you're going to get cuffed. That, I think, is why they changed the timeline. You're right, Dale Carson.

Remember, what parent doesn't know the last time they saw their child? I mean, they go camping. They come back. They know what day they last saw him. And then weeks in, they go, oh, yeah, we got our memory jogged. I bet they did get their memory jogged. Changing that timeline. Okay, sorry, Moss.

Go ahead. Yeah, the FBI apparently had spotted the vehicle at the laundry, the Mustang at the laundry home on the 15th, which is why they said it must have been the 13th, not the 14th. But yeah, again, we are seeing an uptick of activity at the site. We saw 10 vehicles, the canine forensics unit. But yeah, again, we are seeing an uptick of activity at the site. We saw 10 vehicles, the canine forensics unit. We did see Pasco County Sheriff's Office there today, their canine unit. And that's something that I personally hadn't seen before. And just to tell you a little bit, it's one of the first agencies, the Pasco County Sheriff's Office, that routinely uses canines. They have close to two dozen dogs. They have all sorts of specialty dogs like bloodhounds that are specifically

trained to trail missing people. So they do have a significant ability with canines. So the question with canines, so the question is, what have they found now today? What are they looking for now? Well, we have a little bit more information as the search goes on. According to Masa Saidi, joining us from WFLA there in Florida. We've got some more information. Tyler, if you could please roll cut 320. Our friends at WPBF. He says now that Petito's death has been ruled a homicide and the cause has been determined as strangulation, a suspect may

already be named behind closed doors. That piece of information, I would bet, has gone into the grand jury. There is now a sealed indictment for the apprehension of the person who is responsible for the death of Gabby Petito. Details surrounding possible warrants and charges, however, likely won't be released until an arrest is made. They would tend not to want to unseal that because I think they realize that. Absolutely. There's a very good chance all this has already been sent to a, we say secret grand jury, but all grand juries are secret, so to speak. So that's not some mysterious thing to have a secret grand jury. Also, we now have the Teton County coroner kind of backpedaling, trying to clarify his earlier comments.

That's why, you know, my old boss, Cheryl, you knew him well, Mr. Louis Slayton, the longest serving district attorney in the country. At that time, I believe it was 37 years. And for a good reason, honest, hardworking. He told me on day one, don't speak to the press. Don't come up. He didn't say this, but I came up with a standard answer. I always said I fully believe a Fulton County jury will reach a verdict that speaks the truth.

Bam. That was it. There's a reason you don't talk to the press. Okay. Take a listen to our cut 315, our friend Brian Enten. Dr. Blue says he's not allowed to get into Gabby's specific injuries because of the ongoing FBI investigation. He says her body was discovered nearly a month after she was killed. What sort of challenges are involved in an autopsy when a body, as you described yesterday, has been out in the wild for three to four weeks. In a situation where any body is out in the outside, whether

it's exposed to the elements and insects and animals, there is various forms of decomposition. And that decomposition usually runs this very specific course. And also, Tyler, please run a 3-1-6. This statement from the Teton County Coroner Tuesday got so much attention. Unfortunately, this is only one of many deaths around the country of people who are involved in domestic violence. Some assumed Dr. Blue was confirming Laundrie was involved. Today, he told me that's not what he was saying. Did you determine that her cause of death was the result of domestic violence, or was that just a comment you made in the moment? That was a comment I made in the moment.

In the moment. That's why a lot of people on air read off a prompter because they don't want to say anything in the moment that is completely uh let's just say they shouldn't have said okay i believe i recognize your voice masasaidi wfla was is that you questioning yeah that was me i tried to you know i was trying to get more information out of him, just whatever other details that could be released. You know, with that, he told me it was a comment he made in had been on a on a van trip together with her partner. So he kind of said a little bit different phrase to every single one of us. But I also asked him in another report if you could talk about like because you know how he wouldn't tell us about the autopsy findings, what led him to believe, like what marks were on her neck or so on. So I tried to get him to talk more about that. And he talked about just how typically

blood flow would be cut off to the brain. And the other way would be that there would be a crack in the windpipe. Because I asked him, like, how do you know it's manual? Like, did you find fingerprints? Like, how did you know? And that was his answer to me. My society, what can you tell me about alleged prior domestic incident reportedly committed by the coroner? So this is an interesting little tidbit. I'll let you decide how relevant it is. But according to the Jackson Hole News and Guide, a publication out of Wyoming that I'm not familiar with, in 1999, there was a court case

involving the Teton County coroner, Dr. Brent Blue. And apparently he was accused of shooting a gun at his ex-wife's car to keep her on scene. So that is an allegation of domestic violence at the guy that's now the coroner and sort of talking about domestic violence in this high profile case. And apparently in the end, that turned out to be a misdemeanor, a reckless endangerment, and he's able to have a concealed weapon and so on. But that's just a little tidbit that's reported from local authorities there. And I'll let you guys debate how, what that means. Did he shoot the gun at the ex or in the air to keep the ex from leaving? Or did he pull the gun and not shoot? He's accused of shooting the gun at the ex-wife's car to keep her, to prevent her from leaving that scene.

That was in 1999. Well, I can tell you this. I question why it's surfacing now and what motives someone may have for bringing it forward now. But if it's true, it's true. And that's going to be one heck of a line of cross-examination when the coroner takes the stand. Okay, that's just another fun thing to think about. How are you going to tackle that if this thing ever does get to trial when your coroner has this prior? What about it, Cheryl?

I think that's a really good reason why they had four additional experts. They're going to be able to talk about the toxicology. Now, I disagree with that. I disagree with that because, Cheryl, the county coroner is elected in a lot of jurisdictions. He may not even be a forensic pathologist. He's a doctor. So they needed an anthropologist. They needed a forensic pathologist. They needed all of. So they needed an anthropologist. They needed a forensic pathologist. They needed all of these experts, a CAT scan expert, and this expert, and that expert. It's just like, you don't go a foot doctor for an open heart surgery. So I don't want to take away from Dr. Blue his credentials. I don't think that they had this prior shooting in mind when they called in the experts. Go ahead.

I don't either. What I'm saying is independently of him, they have three people that can walk you through the findings without any hiccups is what I'm saying. And we don't normally have that. That's a nice way to put it, a hiccup. If you fired a gun at me, I think I'd call it a little more than a hiccup, but okay. But, hey, I want to make one more point that I think people need to know. When the medical examiner says he had no independent knowledge of the domestic violence, I don't know how that's true because

law enforcement is on site for the autopsy and they would have been talking to the group the whole time. Jay Scott. Yeah, one of my favorite comments that you use is you can never unring the bell. And he did not stay in his lane as a coroner. I train corners for a living. That's what I do. And so he has no knowledge relative to that he should speak upon relative to an ongoing investigation relative to domestic violence. His job is manner and cause of death. And a subset of that is identification of the deceased. Beyond that, there's no interest here. And so he really, he really ran outside of his lanes with this. Well, he would never testify about that in any event. It's just going to be the manner of death. No, that's it. No,

he is going to testify there's ever a trial. He's in charge of the autopsy. He's going to be compelled as a result of all of this. Unless you can get an assistant medical examiner or assistant coroner, and then the defense is going to say, well, where's the coroner? Yeah, he will be taking the stand. Okay, Bethany, I know you've got a lot to say. Nutshell, nutshell. Well, I'm just going to say, you know, he shot at his wife's car. He's still shooting from the hip. How is this going to affect the trial? And, you know, somebody who shoots a gun in a domestic situation is impulsive so I was just wondering how is that impulsivity going to affect how he examines the body how he presents evidence and how he presents at trial don't you think you're reading a little too much into it

he shot a gun okay yeah all right you got me over a barrel. You saw. Okay. That's bad. We will figure out how this is going to affect a trial. If there ever is a trial, if there is a grand jury indictment, but first we got to find Brian Laundrie. Masa, is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Well, the search we're told, you know, we don't always stop the activity because the scene is just so vast out there. But we're told that the activity is going on all the time around the clock constantly. And here we are, you know, nearly a month into this, more than a month since he's been missing, but nearly a month of the search. And, you know, there's still every every couple of days we see this huge uptick and we get out our chopper and we're trying to figure out what's going on.

And that's what we're doing today. I think you guys know this, but about Dr. Blue, he's certified in emergency medicine and family medicine. He did not conduct the autopsy. He just interpreted the results here. And I asked him, I said, hey, does the FBI know you're talking? Did they tell you not to talk? And he said that he was independent of the FBI, but he did hold off having that news conference because the U.S. attorney asked him to hold off for one week.

But he's kind of doing his own thing because he said that he believes it's important to get out the right information out to the public, whatever limited information that he's available to give. We wait as the search goes on for Brian Laundrie and all of this with the backdrop that as we speak, Gabby's family is going to bring home her remains. Can you imagine that trip? Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.