Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FAMILY FURY BRIDE ELLEN STABBED 20X RULED SUICIDE AGAIN IN SHOCK RPT: COVERUP?

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

A review of past findings in Ellen Greenberg's death is complete. The Chief Medical Examiner of Philadelphia, Dr Lindsay Simon, issued a 32-page report and writes: since Ellen was anxious over grades she had given her elementary school students, and, because she was capable of inflicting  over 20 stab wounds to the head, chest, neck, and back, her death is ruled a suicide. Simon writes "many of these stab and incised wounds would best be categorized as hesitation wounds".  The report also notes the lack of defensive wounds. The pathologist performing Greenberg's autopsy in 2011 documented 20 wounds, Simon's report includes 23.  In the Final Analysis of Ellen's Death, Dr Lindsay Simon, Chief Medical Examiner of Philadelphia, writes: "Ellen was found dead in her apartment with twenty-three stab and incised wounds. These wounds were limited to her posterior head/neck, right neck, and central front torso. While the distribution of injuries is admittedly unusual, the fact remains that Ellen would be capable of inflicting these injuries herself. Many of these stab and incised wounds would best be categorized as hesitation wounds. No defensive injuries were identified on her body. There was no evidence to indicate Ellen was incapacitated or incapable of defending herself."  Simon says "the fiancé's DNA was not detected on the knife used to inflict the injuries. His self-reported timeline of events is corroborated by phone logs, text messages, surveillance footage, keycard swipes, and police interviews. No evidence was provided to indicate Ellen was in an abusive relationship with her fiancé. There was no evidence of a third party being in the apartment on the day of Ellen's death, nor was anyone else's DNA detected on the knife used to inflict the injuries on Ellen's body. No findings of a struggle were found at the scene, and no valuables missing.  Simon concludes, " The manner of Ellen Greenberg's death is best classified as "Suicide". All opinions stated in this report are expressed with a reasonable degree of medical certainty. Dr Simon ends with "the undersigned reserves the right to amend any statements or opinions if presented with additional significant information."  Joining Nancy Grace today: Judge Pat Dugan  - Served the last 17 years as Municipal Court Judge,   Army Vet,  candidate for Philadelphia District Attorney   Benee Knauer - Author, "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"   Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case,  Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan Caryn Stark -  Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth),  Podcast "Mayhem in the morgue" Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) John Luciew - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa., specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com, Author: “Kill the Story”,  Twitter: @JohnLuciew     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Family fury after a gorgeous young bride. Ellen Greenberg stabbed 20 times, 20-2-0 times, including in the back, has been real suicide again in a shock. Report. Tonight, I can't help but ask. Is there a cover up? That district attorney has got to go. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. I just walked to my apartment. She got there on the floor with blood everywhere. Oh, no. Oh, no. I can't see anything. She doesn't, there's nothing broken. She's please. Ellie. Can't see anything. She was stabbed 20 times. And miraculously, there was very, very little blood on the floor. But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is. And a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam! A rubber stamp on the last debacle. I want to go straight out to Guy DeAndria, former prosecutor.

In the Ellen Greenberg case, now high profile lawyer at Laffey, Buchy, DeAndrea, Rilch, and Ryan, why? Why is this happening again? What is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report? 30-something pages of BS, technical legal term? BS, total BS. It's outrageous, Nancy Grace.

I've read it front and the back several times. the seven points that I found that she relied upon are nonsense. I cannot wrap my head around how she can make these conclusions in light of everything we know in 2025. Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned. And I want to point out, Benet Nauer is with me, my co-author, in what happened to Ellen an American miscarriage of justice.

By the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's all going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. But nay, you know what I noticed in this new 30 plus page report? Hey, whoa, look at that. Bruising on her wrists, which was not addressed in the report as a defensive wound. Bruising around her neck, which was not addressed as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call a fingertip bruise. Look at that.

You can actually see the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises, there's the door that was, quote, broken down. What's so important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to the stabbings. They are separate bruising and they are not in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is from that evening and they occurred before the stabbings because if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any markings because the heart is no longer pumping.

I don't have to bring in our doctor in just a moment. He can say it much better than me. Benet Nauer so much is left out of this fake autopsy report. It's total BS. And you know what? To you, Dr. Lindsay Simon, you're full of crap. Next, Benet, help me out. No mention of the bruises is defensive wounds.

I could not agree more. First of all, this report is shocking in every way. But in terms of the bruises, she says in this report that those bruises are become from being a teacher of little children. I know many teachers. They are not covered in bruises. I don't even know what to make of that. But my, my, what really is driven home so powerfully for me. is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh, new case. This feels like a rebuttal to me. It feels like this person, this medical examiner, took all of the existing evidence and went against every single thing. It's doubling down, it's tripling down, but it feels like a rebuttal, like an argument against what is real, what is reasonable.

all. John Lucy is joining me on the case from the very beginning. I almost said story, but this is no story. This is real. This happened. And Ellen Greenberg's parents are thrown into desolation. Yet again, they're not only fighting on behalf of their daughter. They've spent their entire life savings. They had to sell their house. But they are battling, which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucy, journalist PINLive.com and the Patriot News, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes in true crime, author of Kill the Story, and he has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey, John Lucy, I taught school while I was waiting to find out if I got into law school. I didn't get a single bruise teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What about that? No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry-picked every piece of evidence in this case that the Greenbergs have unearthed.

That wasn't given initially. They found a lot of evidence over a 14-year investigation. And Lindsay, Simon, the ME, cherry-picks everything in the favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide. joining us an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight joining a special guest judge pat dougan has served the last 17 years as a municipal court judge has seen it all also in the army army reserve 23 years captain and now has his sights set on the ellen greenberg debacle judge did Did you know that her mother and father have spent their entire life savings fighting this suicide ruling that first, when Ellen's body got to the M.E.'s office, Dr. Merlin Osborne ruled it a homicide. Obviously, 20 staffs, most of the bat for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then after a closed-door meeting with a rep, a female rep from the DA's office, who now has immunity, nobody can explain why she needs immunity on what went down in that room, and members of the Philly PD who already ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a closed door meeting with the M.E. And then he comes out and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling after that

meeting. Later in sworn deposition, he states they coerced him, they persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell that except me? It stinks. So Nancy, yes, I'm running again. against the current district attorney right now in an election in November. What I'm promising, if I witness election, I will do a top to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives, and we will look at the entire record. I will review it with ethics and as an attorney and as a former judge. we will look at the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office file.

We will look at the Chester County's District Attorney's Office file, the Attorney General's file. We will look at all these autopsy reports. We will look at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken. We will interview people, experts, some of these people that are on your panel today. And then I will make a determination whether or not this case should be reopened. Because to me, just on its face, this case. has been a black guy for Philadelphia since 2011, and Josh and Sandy.

Judge Dugan, I would never interrupt a judge if I were trying a case in front of you, so I'm really enjoying this moment. Judge, are you currently, or have you ever been married? Yes. Okay. Has your wife... I'm currently married. Either...

Has she ever asked you to zip up her... zipper all the time okay so I don't know what you're talking about I will determine if this needs to be reopened your wife can't even zip up her back zipper yet Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back slicing her spinal cord which was not really even addressed in this 30 plus pages of hogwash really and not only that I'm sure you're familiar with the, quote, wrong way blood on Ellen's face to Dr. Kindle Crowns joining us, the chief medical examiner of Tarrant County that's out of Texas, Fort Worth, never a lack of business in their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Mour. Dr. Kendall Crowns, on Ellen's face, blood she was sitting up, slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets.

Picture that. Her legs splayed out in front of her. A knife plunged in her chest. On her face, I hope you can see the monitor. On her face, blood was dried from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody get why that is wrong? Could you explain? So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright, it should be coming down her face,

across her lips over her chin. She would have to be slumped to the side with her head tilted at a very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind of bloodstream down the face. It doesn't fit with how her body was positioned. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I just walked to my part, and I see on the floor with blood everywhere. What is the address? Please, Harry, please. What does she be bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell. She's... No.

So you have to calm yourself down in order to get you. you some help i'm sorry i'm sorry she i don't know i'm looking at her right now she i don't i can't see anything she doesn't there's nothing broken she's bleed alie you don't know where she's bleeding from can't tell what's coming from it's i think her head i think she had her head i think she might have fallen do you know what happens she she may have slipped his blood on the on the table her face is a little purple okay hold on for rescue for her stay on the phone have slipped there is a butcher knife stabbed into her chest her heart she slipped and fell on the knife let's take a listen to more of that 911 call my my i went downstairs to go work out i came back up

the door in the last my fiance's inside she wasn't she wasn't answering so after about a half hour i decided to break you down i see her now just on the floor and what she's not she's not she's not finding. Okay, is she breathing? Yeah, I can't. Look at her chest. I need you to come down. I need to look at her chest. I don't think she, I really don't see it. Listen, Timmy, someone's on the way.

Look at her chest. And she fled on her back? She's on her back, so I'm here. Look at her chest and tell me it's going up and down, up and down. I don't see her moving. According to the police report, she was not on her back. Why is he saying she was on her back? She was sitting up leaning against the kitchen cabinets.

So how did that happen? Was the body moved? Obviously, it was because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was found by the fiancé sitting up. Let me remind everyone, no one has been named a person of interest. No one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's listen to more of that 911 call. Okay, do you know how to do CPR?

I don't. Okay, I'll tell you what to do, okay, until they get here. I want you to keep her friend. Hello? Yeah, hi, okay. We'll learn to do CPR with me over the phone. I have to, right? Okay, so you get her fed on her back, bear her chest, okay, my rubber shirt all.

Okay, deal down by her side. Oh, my God. Ellie, please. Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying to ask. Her shirt won't come off as a zipper. Oh, my God, she fell on a knife. Oh, no, her night's sticking out.

What? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stands her, though? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Judge Pat Dugan, she stabbed herself.

That's what was said on the 911 call, or she, quote, fell on a knife. That was said on the 911 call, and apparently the medical examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor, the female prosecutor from the district attorney's office, would have been granted immunity. about what happened in that closed door meeting that they held, she from the DA's office, somebody from Philly PD with a medical examiner who had already ruled this homicide.

And now today says it was a homicide, but I was pressured to rule a suicide. That's in his deposition. Why would a member of the district attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity when I was the prosecutor. Why is that? And that's the question.

I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed doors that a prosecutor needs immunity? Well, obviously, that points to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on. It's sort of like going into court and pleading the fifth. I don't get it. I want to hear why and find out what the hell happened. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I know. Okay, I'll tell you what to do, okay, until they get to.

here. I want you to keep her phone. Hello? Yeah, hi, okay. Well, there's some CPR with me over the phone so they can. I have to, right? Okay, the interstate on her back, bear her chest, okay, my reference shirt all. Okay, deal down by her side. Oh my God.

Allie, please. And listen, you can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off as a zipper. Oh my God, she stabbed herself. Where? She fell in the night. Oh, no.

Her knife sticking out. That what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. She stands or so? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it.

Stabbed 20 times, the back of the head to the back of the neck. My fiance is inside. She wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, and it's on the floor of blood. She's not, she's not responding. A bombshell, a shock report, a rubber stamp by the medical examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly questionable medical examiner's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The bruises covering her body were not addressed at all. up to say her first grade students must have what mob attacked her and bruised her.

There were fresh bruises on her wrists and there were bruises that looked like if I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a rubber stamp. To guide DeAndria, joining us, former prosecutor in this district attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide. What happened when you did that at the time, Guy? That's what's crazy, Nancy. I, in 2017, after doing the full investigation, went to the office, including the medical examiner's office,

and said the findings are clear, this is not. not a suicide, and they agreed. Let me be clear. The medical examiner's office in 2017, right before I left the office, agreed that at a minimum, this was inconclusive. And so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to determine whether it was going to remain inconclusive or move to a homicide. That was how I left things in 2017. So Nancy, it's now 2025. And they've revert it back to this doubling down. So they, I don't know if they lied to me or what, but I don't know what's happening when everyone was on the same page in January of 2017. Joining us, Dr. Kendall Crowns, a renowned chief medical examiner in Fort Worth, star of mayhem in the morgue and

lecturer Burnett School of Medicine. This was a 10-inch kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle was it from up to down right to left what do you make of the weapon and what can we learn from it so looking at the stab wounds it appears as several are superficial but there are important ones that go very deep one getting the aortic arch one getting the liver the length of the blade it can be shoved in because the skin

is elastic can be pushed further than the blade is deep But the main one that is really upsetting to me is stab wound T, which I have a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back of the head and going kind of into the cervical spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine, which is meaning it's coming in contact with C2, which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of the neck that would be like someone grabbing her by the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could be a strangulation. And the problem is, is often with strangulations, is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep the strangulation going long enough to kill them.

The person comes back alive, the individual panics, and then looks for another method of killing them, often a knife, because they're very evisement. available in the kitchen and then begin stabbing them. Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep, but the one that goes through the neck into the cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately, and she shouldn't have been able to stick a knife in her chest after that because she wouldn't have had any function to her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So it's very, very suspect. To me, it's not a suicide.

At best, I'd say undetermined, but it really looks like a homosexual. side to me. Well, if it's not, put him up, please. You know, Dr. Kendall Crenz is very rare that I get to cross-examine a medical examiner and think I actually know something more than they did. But you said, at best, it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a very limited modes of death, manner of death? You got a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned, you can die in an accident, you can, modes of death, manners of death are accident, natural causes, right? Suicide, homicide, and undetermined. Correct.

So I don't have all the photographs on this case. Did I cover them all, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Did I get them all? You did. I'm missing anything. Okay. So do you think this was an accident? with suicide or homicide, right?

No, it's not an accident. He says in the phone call that she could have fallen on the knife, which is entertaining. But it could be a suicide or homicide, right? And the problem is, is you have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her and how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And again, without all the information, I would like to see the photographs and the scene pictures and all that. But I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes, a bruise of that nature is not going to be caused by a first grader because they don't have the physical capacity to punch. Look, do you see the resolving bruises to the right? Those are blue. Those are what we call in resolution. Those are older. They're already turning blue. They're starting to dissipate. Okay. The bright purple one is the one that is really.

Explain how we know that. So bruises go through different color sages as they resolve or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when you're looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred during different time periods because the ones are kind of a blue-gray, whereas the one in the middle is a reddish-brown, reddish-purple coloration. So the big reddish-purple one happened before the other two did. But the problem I have with that bruise is there's no way a first grader did that

to her because they don't have the power. They don't have the grip strength. They don't have the ability to punch that heart. That to me looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and was holding her arm down while they were sticking a knife into the back of her head. Regarding the bruise we're showing right now. Once someone is dead, they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Dr. Cunel Crowns? That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer your blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises won't form. Another thing in the new medical report, translation cover-up, rubber stamp, C-Y-A, cover your anus, these bruises are, as we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students.

nothing explains away the post-mortem stab the stab that didn't bleed because she was already dead what she did that too could you explain why that is a non-sequitory does not follow well again any time you stab a person after their heart stop beating there will be no blood in the wound cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it up with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened after she died. And so that makes it impossible to have occurred. But again, I still maintain that I feel that cervical spine stab would have incapacitated her immediately. Look at the diagram. You're talking about the knife going in from what we see right behind her ear. Is that the stab you're talking about? That's correct. John Lucy joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's been on

this case from the beginning for those that are not familiar with the post-mortem stab could you explain it John Lucy yeah this was something that was only came to light years after and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case but they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had been incised with a knife and they determined there was no bleeding and then they had the pathologist who examine the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there was no blood associated with that wound and that one of the explanations was it was post-mortem now in the new report dr lindsay simon offers another explanation again she cherry-picked everything and made the conclusions

all favor suicide she says that nick to the spinal cord was done at autopsyllation Of course, that's been rejected by the Greenberg's case. So now she's blaming the post-mortem stab on the medical examiner that they must have stabbed the victim. They must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy? Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report. And she is saying all of Ellen was alive when all of the wounds were sustained by her. And she actually ups the number of stab wounds to 23. To 23.

She's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds, which she describes as hesitation wounds, which are common to suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallow wounds. Put him up. They're called exploratory or experimental wounds when somebody is trying to stab themselves. and they don't really have the guts to do it, so they're kind of like trying it out. John Lucy,

are you familiar with the methods and assessment of homicide and suicide, which reveals how unlikely it is for a female to stab herself dead? Yes. I practically never. Also, many of the experimental, exploratory, wounds were to her back. Isn't that true, John Lucy? Yes. And the Greenbergs, to their credit, had a computer simulation of all the wounds and placing an imaginary digital knife into the direction of each stab wound based on all the notes at autopsy. And it clearly shows basically it was

biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot of those wounds to her back of the head and neck. But again, Dr. Lindsay Simon takes the other side and says that while these were, the distribution of wounds were unusual, her words, they were not impossible. So, and again, not impossible. Okay. If you want to believe the first graders attacked her and she is an Olympic gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in the back. And isn't it true, Dr. Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that you would have to do experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the back and whether she could stab herself after she's already dead. But there were no measurements taken of her arms or to determine was this even

possible. None of that was done. Correct. None of that was done. And also, wounds were not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you have of the bruises on the neck were not documented in the report.

So to me, there's information that wasn't even put in the report to begin with. So it makes the whole thing questionable. Well, I just see you out with me over the phone to the... I have to, right? To the back, a horrible gas. on the back of her head? So I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think.

Straight out to my co-author, Bonaugh, who tirelessly combed through facts with me to write what happened to Ellen. Got a question for you, Bonae. During all these 9-1-1 calls, I don't hear a peep from the doorman.

The doorman that the fiancé says came up. up with him to watch him as a witness, I guess, break down the door. Why am I not hearing the doorman at all on the 911 calls if he was standing right there at the door, like the fiance said? Because he swears and said so, you know, in a deposition that he was not there, that he never left his post. The doorman swears. unwaveringly and said so in a deposition that he was not at that door, that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him there, but did not, that he could not leave his post, and he was

not there, period. B'nai, you spoke with the doorman. Yes. What did he tell you happened the night Ellen was murdered? He said that Sam Goldberg asked him. to accompany him to the apartment and that he said he could not leave his post. He said that video shows that he did not leave his post. He was not there.

And he said anything that that is an out and out lie that never happened. Anyone who says he did that is lying. Monet Nower, how did this whole thing start with the doorman? Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having trouble getting into the apartment. where his fiancee was. He couldn't get in. He asked the door man to go with him, to accompany him to the apartment. And the doorman said, I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go with Sam. He swears and said in a deposition that he did not leave his position, his post, and did not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door, that he was not there. He was not standing there when the call was made to know. 911, that he did not go with him. He did not witness anything that happened there personally. So there were no witnesses to the fiancé breaking down the door and the doorman did not go up as a witness.

Correct. And he swears to that, absolutely, and says anybody who says otherwise is lying and that there is no video evidence of it that he was not there. So the video bears out what the doorman is saying? Correct. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. To Judge Pat Dugan, 17 years on the bench, former Army captain, Judge Dugan, why won't the district attorney's office hand over

Ellen's file to her parents. So what I really don't understand is that Mr. Krasner actually represented the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen before he was the district attorney. So he had a personal file involved in this case before he was the DA. And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked Mr. Krasner for that file back. And for whatever reason, he's not given back that file. Now, there might be a few things in there that Krasner wants to keep, you know, deep thoughts and all that. But most of that should be turned over to the client.

So I don't understand why that personal file for Ellen's parents have not been turned over to them. I believe it belongs to them. The police changed their theory on homicide because they could not find defense. of wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists were both badly bruised, like she was being restrained. Number two, there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three, the two wounds

that were in Ellen's back of her neck and in their chest, the medical examiner, one of the medical examiners, before she was dismissed said that those were post-mortem we've been looking at the knife wounds we should have looking

at strangulation eye patikii etc looking at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding from

Fox News Digital oh god oh my god she stands herself she's still in the night oh no her night's sticking out how could that

be ruled suicide oh my god Ellie please there's a It seemingly never ends. I remember, do you, Benay Nauer, the elation we shared with Josh and Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered, a new review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen it coming when you don't know a horse.

Look at his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would be an impartial review and Ellen could finally get justice. That did not happen. Why are we so naive? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for all of this. And I have heard, I have listened to that 911 recording, no fewer than 50 times. And I, it still takes my breath away. The, she stabbed herself, she fell on the knife. It's, it's, it's beyond comprehension. and when it was announced that this would be reopened, people were thrilled.

And I cannot tell you the outpouring that I received after this news that it was labeled to suicide again from people on Instagram, by email, getting called. It's stunning. It's outrageous. It's unbelievable and devastating. It can't be real. Wouldn't you agree? John Lucy, journalist pinlive.com and the Patriot News News.

Harrisburg, PA, author of Kill the Story, wouldn't you agree, Lucy, that the last thing, Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, who was then the state attorney general, the top cop of the state, had been the district attorney. The last thing he needs is he tries to wedge his big toe back into the Oval Office like he did with Harris, that close, that close to the Oval Office's man. The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up from the dead to bite him in the neck. In other words, a full-on investigation of the DA staff coercing the medical examiner to change his ruling and the AG Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it. that's like you know biting a snake bite to the neck

he doesn't want that no absolutely not and he was questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February had a press conference that was called for another reason but a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case

he doubled down on suicide before the new ME doubled down on suicide and certainly any investigation that would show otherwise would make Shapiro look bad because he had this case as Attorney General of PA for four long years and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well and he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as you see, it's a political football now in play in the Philly D.A.'s race.

So it could be an issue. And I'm online all the time and I'm on X and it's all over the place. And a lot of fingers are pointing at Shapiro. To Judge Pat Adugan, 17 years on the bench, Army captain, now running for the Philadelphia. District Attorney's position, it seems like an unholy cabal. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in. I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty, homicide.

That's really all I know how to do. And I can tell you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the only way to get around that, which I know to be true, is that for some reason, they don't want this case reopened. So you are going to be up against it. Everyone will be against you when you try to reopen this case. If you get that far. So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn.

I swore the oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold up honor and justice. I am not worried about politics. I'm running for office, but I really don't care about the Democrats, the Republicans. I really don't care. I care about the victims and the rule of law. I've been a public servant almost my entire life, and that oath does not have an end date on it. So I honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the evidence leads me to is where I will go with that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.

Reminder, no one has been charged or named as a person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her parents need our help. If you know or think you know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the governor's office. Don't call Shapiro. Don't call the Attorney General. So call the U.S. attorney appointed for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have to bring in the feds.

And I implore you to please call the U.S. attorney in that jurisdiction, David Metcalf, number 215-861-8200. Repeat. 215-861.8200. I never envisioned a day that I would advise, don't call the governor, don't call the district attorney. But that day has come. We stop and remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunes, San Bernardino County Sheriff's, California, just 28 shot in the line. of duty, leaving behind his pregnant wife and their two-year-old daughter. American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunes. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.