Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Family searches for answers in Susan Cox Powell mystery; Cops say mom & girlfriend burned baby boy

Episode Date: August 1, 2018

Hopes for learning what happened to Susan Cox Powell after she disappeared from her Utah home in 2009 faded even more with the death in prison of her father-in-law Steve Powell. Nancy Grace explores the case with Susan's sister Denise Ernst, Cox family lawyer Anne Bremner, Cox family investigator Rose Winquist & psychologist Caryn Stark. A Louisiana mother and her reported girlfriend face murder charges in the burning death of the mom's baby boy. Grace examines the case with lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter Larry Meagher. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. A Louisiana mother tells police she answers the door and is immediately pepper sprayed, maced in the face. She stumbles away, trying to get away of the two men at the door. When she comes back, her little baby, her tiny baby, Levi Cole Ellerbee is gone. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Joining me right now, Larry Mayher, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Larry, that's just the beginning of the story. Let's start at the beginning because in the last hours, a sudden twist, a bizarre twist, has left me reeling on this case. Let's just start at the beginning, when the mom, Hannah Barker, tells about getting maced in the face at her own front door. What

happened then, Larry? Well, she called 911 and told them about the two men who had confronted her at the front door of her mobile home and threw some sort of chemical like pepper spray or mace in her face she ran off thinking they were coming after her when she came back the day she reported that the baby was gone police immediately launched a search for the boy who was not quite seven months old at the point at And the mother, Hannah Barker, gave them a description of the two men, but that description was never broadcast and it was never released to the public, suggesting that perhaps right from the get-go, police were not real sure that the mom was telling them the truth.

Sure enough, about an hour later, they found the little boy. He was in a fire that had been set next to some railroad tracks about a mile away from the trailer home. Paramedics took the boy to the hospital. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Larry Mayher, when you say he was in a fire

that was set next to some railroad tracks, you make it sound like he was in a home that caught on fire. That's not what happened, Larry. No, no, no. Someone started a fire next to some railroad tracks and then threw the child in it. I tell you what, Larry, somebody better go to jail, At the very least, starting a fire and putting a child, a seven-month-old child, in the fire. You know, at first, to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University.

Joe Scott, at first I thought, well, clearly they suffocated this little baby, and then they tried to destroy the evidence by burning the body. That's not what happened. Because I know for a fact authorities came upon the fire, and they airlifted or raced the baby to the hospital to try to save the baby, which tells me the baby was alive. Joe Scott. Yeah. Yeah.

The baby still had signs of life. Nancy, it's a 65 mile distance. They were in Natchitoches, Louisiana, which is near on the west side of the state. And they were they had to transport this baby to Shreveport. And so my suspicion is, is that when they, they arrived at the scene and Lord knows how they came across this child at this point, they still had signs of life enough to justify them removing the child from the scene and taking them to Shreveport at that point in time. So yeah, this child was going through an excruciating death, Nancy. And to make, and to really put a chill down your spine, they apparently arrived right after this thing has been initiated. There's

a lot more to this that I'd like to know. I tell you what, I know whoever is involved is going to burn in hell, but I'd feel a lot better if they sat on death row for a while before they got the needle, putting a child, a living seven-month-old child, into a fire by a railroad track. Well, the state of Louisiana will greatly oblige them. I can promise you that. I mean, you know, this baby boy, I remember when the twins were seven months old, Joe Scott. You know, they were super, super premature. And it was my mission every day. They'd be up, each one of them, 1230 30 then 1 30 then 3 30 then 5 30 and I'd just get up at 5 30

to to keep them alive Lucy was born at two pounds you know that John David at five and it was my mission to keep them alive and I remember how helpless they were at seven months old. Poor little babies after they'd been through so much. And this little child, absolutely, Levi Cole, just a beautiful baby. When I think about what he suffered before he died. So then I hear Larry Mayher, crime stories investigative reporter. Larry, then I hear that one of mommy's Facebook friends, I guess anybody can friend you on Facebook, but that's how this woman involved in a scenario was connected through being a Facebook friend with mommy. Okay, what do we

know about that? Okay, Felicia Nicole Smith is her name. She's 25 years old. She and the mother, whose name is Hannah Barker, once worked together at a restaurant, an IHOP, there in Louisiana. And according to neighbors talking to local media, they had developed a relationship between the two of them while they were working together and in the time since they were no longer working together. Felicia Nicole Marie Smith was charged with first degree murder shortly after the little boy died. She has been in jail ever since. So when you say a relationship with a mom, what do you mean by that? Were they friends? Were they lovers? What were they? According to the people who knew them, they had apparently a romantic relationship. Okay, so how does that go from loving somebody that you made at work,

and then suddenly you're connected to their baby being murdered in such a brutal way? I'm not really understanding that. Take a listen to the Louisiana State Fire Marshal, Butch Brown. Probably one of the more saddest situations I've ever seen. As you know, we had a six-month baby that was a victim of a first-degree murder in a fire. We have arrested one female in that case. The investigation is still ongoing. I really can't comment any more than that. But it is very tragic and just very, very sad.

You know, the Natchitoches community has really been brought to their knees on this issue. The chief of police and I have been talking on a regular basis, working this case, but the community is still waiting on a lot of answers, and we will have those answers in probably the next week or so to come, but we do expect other arrests in that case. Butch, did the suspect know the family, know the mother, or do we know anything about that yet? Yes, this individual had a relationship with the family and certainly had access to the child. So we're still vetting through those things, but it wasn't a random act, which is important for us to put out. It certainly was an individual who knew the child and had access to the child.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a random act either or two. Joseph Scott Morgan, with me, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer. Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator. And Larry Mayher, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Joseph Scott Morgan, I don't think that it's random either. I mean, these two women knew each other from working together, apparently at one point had a romantic relationship, and suddenly she's connected to the disappearance

and then the death of the seven-month-old baby boy, Levi. Now, that's not random. Of course it's not. No. No, it's not. And that's the reason she's been hooked up on first-degree murder charges, Nancy, in Louisiana. Why do you say that? You know, you remind me of so many defendants, and I'd say, what's your record or witness?

And they go, well, well, Ms. Grace, I caught a robbery charge. You caught a robbery charge. You caught a robbery charge. Okay. Now, you just said she's hooked up. She's hooked up with a first-degree murder. Oh, uh-uh, uh-uh. No, she has been formally charged with murder one in the burning death of a seven-month-old baby. Okay.

She didn't catch a murder charge. Go ahead. Well, she's going to have to live with it at this point. Let me tell you what else. This was a purposed event. A seven-month-old does not just mysteriously, spontaneously combust adjacent to a railroad track. Someone took this child out there. They built a fire and introduced this poor living little angel into this hellacious inferno.

And the child began to burn. They went out there and purposed this. And so that's why she has been charged with first degree murder. Well, you know what, Joe Scott? You're absolutely right. Larry Mayher, that's not the end

of the story. In the last hours, a bizarre twist. What happened? Well, the mother was charged with being a principal to first-degree murder, which is the way Louisiana deals with accomplices and accessories. As a principal to first-degree murder charge, that carries the same penalty as a first-degree murder charge. And now both women have been charged with criminal conspiracy, which means police believe they were in this together and plotted together to kill this little boy. You know what?

I hardly even know how to respond to that. that? The tot's mother, the tot's mother has now been charged as an accomplice in the burning death of her seven-month-old baby boy, Levi. Larry, what do we mean? What do we know about her involvement as of right now? Has it been laid out? We know Felicia Marie Nicole Smith is facing first-degree murder charges in the death of Levi. Police have not offered any scenario to explain how these two women might have staged this crime. They have imposed what they're calling a news blackout because they say of the high visibility of this particular crime. And so they want to keep everything close to the vest as they continue their investigation, which they have since described as rapidly expanding.

Well, I guess at the very get-go, Joe Scott Morgan, the cops knew something was way wrong with the mom. Because if you've been maced in the face, you can tell. A witness can see on your face, red, you're crying, your face is all messed up. They probably knew at the very beginning this was all a lie. Yeah, I'm sure the story began to fall apart very quickly thereafter. If she had been maced, her face probably would have been swollen, red, irritated. And hey, guess what? She would have the smell of mace about her. So yeah, I'm sure that the legs of this thing kind of fell off really, really quickly. And I'm reading reports about what

the state fire marshal said. They had worked Nancy sleeplessly for days upon days upon days to try to bring justice for this child. Been working, putting their shoulder to the stone. I'm sure that they've been pressing her on questions just to see how far they could go and find out what the true story was here. And something didn't smell right. So they're moving forward with this. Take a listen to what a neighbor says about the night of the 911 call. The story is shifting and changing, which is a sure sign that somebody is lying. You know what? It's very rare that I advocate the death penalty. But burning a seven-month-old child alive is tailor-made for the Louisiana death penalty. You know what? It is so hard to work

cold cases. I know. I have worked them myself, especially when you know your co-workers and colleagues have already worked the case. But there's a former prosecutor named Kelly Siegler who is a true champion for justice, and she is on a mission across America. What I love about Oxygen's Cold Justice program is that Kelly and her team of detectives take on real unsolved murder cases and get real answers for victims and their families. You will love how immersive this show is. You feel like you're right there with the team riding shotgun.

They are passionate crusaders for justice, and I like that. That's what makes each case so personal to this team. Watch the new season of Cold Justice Saturday, 6 p.m. Eastern, 5 Central on Oxygen. It all started when a gorgeous young mom, Susan Cox Powell, went missing. At the very beginning, I'll just put it out there. I know they say cops and investigators are supposed to stay unbiased and not form an opinion. But at the get-go, I had a problem with her husband, Josh Powell. I had a problem at the beginning.

I didn't like the way he acted. I didn't like his answers. I didn't like the fact that the night his wife goes missing, he claims he's taking his two little boys out camping in freezing snowy temperatures outside. I would no more put my children in the back of a car, leaving my spouse behind, and take them camping at midnight. No, that's not how that goes down. And why night of all nights is the same time she goes missing. I got even more concerned when I found out that he had a fan blowing on the carpet inside the house. I don't like that. Then I found out about the pervy relationship that the husband's father tried to have with Susan, which she resisted and told people about

it at the time. Now the investigation into Susan Cox's disappearance has reached a major, major stumbling block. That pervy father-in-law is dead. Now I can't even pretend I'm shedding tears for Stephen Powell, but I've got a river of tears still for Susan Cox Powell. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, Susan's sister, Denise Ernst. High-profile lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction

and the Cox family lawyer, my friend, Ann Bremner. Cox family private investigator, Rose Winquist. And renowned New York psychologist, Karen Stark. I'm going to start at the beginning. Yes, the pervy father-in-law just died. I'm not crying for him, but I am crying because it hurts the investigation into where is Susan. Denise, do you recall when Susan first went missing? What happened? When she went first missing, I got a call from my dad at work asking me if I'd heard from her.

And I had talked to her about a week before because she's making plans to come home early to spend time with myself and my kids so we could binge watch friends and she could do their hair. She always gave haircuts when she came to visit. And she, we were both looking forward to the time to spend with each other as we hadn't been able to with both of our husbands at the time keeping us apart so I was excited I was going through a divorce and single alone happy and I was excited to see her again and I just so my dad I hadn't seen I hadn't talked to her in about a week and that she was planning to come home early and he said he would get back to me that she and the boys and Josh had gone missing at that time you know I can't even imagine hearing that nobody can find my sister or brother. Denise, how did this affect you? At first, I didn't think much of it because I was hoping that, you know,

she had actually taken the boys and left. But after about 24 hours when Josh appeared with the boys, that was a red flag right there because she would not be without her boys so right then I knew something had happened to her it didn't take weeks or months to know something was wrong it just took the 24 hours when do you what do you mean he appeared with the boys? Where? I know he went to a hotel. A hotel? Before he went home.

Why did he go to a hotel? Yes. I honestly don't know, but I was told by my parents that a hotel worker had seen Josh with the boys outside at the Continental Breakfast and he had gotten them something to eat and I believe Charlie had told one of the workers, you know what happened to my mom and she had to go and take care of another guest at the hotel but she came back and the boys and josh were gone oh no you know shortly after shortly after they appeared i guess uh jennifer was able to get his sister was able to to get Josh on the phone and told him to hurry home.

And that the police wanted to talk to him and asked him, you know, have you seen Susan? Did one of them say something about her going down into mines looking for crystals or draw a picture of her, Denise? Yeah. One of the pictures I've seen is they had said, other than Mommy was in the trunk, was Mommy and Daddy went to go look for crystals, but Mommy didn't come back. Again, another red flag. Ann Bremner, Cox Family lawyer, this is significant. When they say going to look for crystals, what could that mean? Because, you know, Ann, you and I have tried a lot of cases, more than I even want to remember. But when you speak to children, you have to understand their language you have to unlock what

they're saying for instance if i had a um a case there was a child witness i'd say instead of what day did it happen because they don't know i can barely tell you what today is myself i'd say was the christmas tree up had the easter bunny come uh did you have on shorts or long pants and a sweater to try to identify the time okay that's just an example of how to unlock what a child's trying to tell you when they say mommy went looking for crystals what could that possibly mean ann Bremner well you're exactly right Nancy and I think it meant that well she disappeared she may have been in a mine remember it was midnight when he took a two-year-old

and four-year-old camping when it's below freezing and that was the first red flag as you noted from the get-go and they did one of them drew a picture of her in the trunk of the car. And so basically what we're seeing is they're trying to understand the disappearance of their mother in their own words. And maybe she went looking for something. They don't, you know, daddy told them that, you know, mommy's in a mine, mommy's looking for crystals. That's why she's not coming back. Not that their mom's dead and the dad murdered her. They're simply trying to understand in their own childlike way what just happened. Well know karen start with me along with rose winquist

denise ernst and ann brenner karen um for the school i was going through the twins schoolwork and i found pictures that they had drawn and it's something draw something about your family well they've got me in my black knee tights and tennis shoes and my hair pulled back and wearing a blue v-neck braves t-shirt okay they got me down pretty well and they drew david in his work slacks and a you know pullover shirt and a belt and his briefcase. That's how they drew him. They're very accurate, Karen. So when they draw Mommy in the trunk, I would put money on it that that's accurate. And I would agree because one of the ways that you can tell what children are trying to communicate to you

is through their drawings. They're really significant. So if you see mommy in a trunk, then they're trying to tell you that this is what they saw. And you can count on Nancy that almost always this is what happened. Mommy was somehow in a trunk. Yeah, well, you know what? That's not normal for a child to draw mommy in a trunk. You know, Denise Ernst with me, Susan's sister, Rose Winquist, the Cox family investigator and high-profile lawyer, and a bremner to Rose Winquist. The boys said, Mommy went looking for crystals. In that terrain, in that area, what could that have meant, Rose Winquist?

Oh, Nancy, that could have meant a multitude of things. We're trying to narrow down exactly where Josh was that evening and next day by either witness testimony or where his cell phone pinged off a tower. And I think there's several mine shafts in the area that we think he went. And one in particular is of great interest to me because it was set on fire in spring of 2010. And we know that Josh was in Utah in the spring of 2010, even though he moved back to Washington shortly after Susan disappeared. You know, you mentioned earlier to Susan's sister, Denise,

you mentioned something about Susan's dad. What was the relationship between Susan's dad, Susan Cox's dad, and her husband, Josh Powell? Between Josh and my dad, he, they borrowed money a lot because Josh, every time, every time he got a job, he got fired from it or he didn't succeed. And I know at times that they were low on funds. My parents, you know, would just just they gave them the money they needed of course and you know they were paid back within time but I think it was more of a strained relationship because my dad would try to talk some sense into Josh which is you know nearly impossible but my dad tried. He really tried to understand how Josh was and how, understand his way of thinking.

But the more they got to know each other, the more strained their relationship became. As a matter of fact, take a listen to Chuck Cox. This is Susan's dad having words with Steve Powell, that's Josh's dad, at a shopping center. Listen. Why come here today? Why not? Well, I just came down here because we were going to get a picture of Chuck Cox. We believe he's in violation of a restraining order because Josh shops at this store, and he is not supposed to come.

That's fine. I know it doesn't mention Fred Meyer, but he is not supposed to come. Here's your scenario. You would like to show me where I'm in violation? I know it doesn't mention Fred Meyer, but he knows we shop at Fred Meyer. He knows this is our neighborhood store, and that's why... So you own the neighborhood? No. We'll have to add this... You guys live a few miles... Josh lives a few miles apart from each other. Yeah, exactly. These people live... So you knew he was going to be here, and you came here yourself, knowing that there's a restraint order.

We just wanted... We wanted to see if he was here because we wanted to be able to have something to say at the hearing on Tuesday. We're having a hearing Tuesday. We weren't going to bring this up with the media. He brought it up with the media. But you came here. I did come here. Yes, I did.

Because I wanted to see what was going on and I wanted to see if Chuck was here. And I have one question for you. How is you coming here helping to find Susan? It isn't helping to find Susan. How is your standing at our neighborhood market helping to find Susan, Chuck? People see the signs or pictures out in the media. It's been all over the media. If somebody has seen her, then they can report to the police.

And you're only going to view them. Which other stores are you doing this at, Chuck? We're doing it in West Valley City. Which other stores in Puyallup, other than our supermarket where we shop? This neighborhood up here is where we're doing it. I've only got a small group of my family. Are you doing it at the store you shop at? I shop at this store. Are you doing it at Walmart down there?

No, this is the corner here. No, you're not. Okay, I rest my case. This is a billboard traffic here. They're only doing it in the neighborhood where we live. This is not corner here. No, you're not. Okay, I rest my case. This is a bit more traffic here. They're only doing it in the neighborhood where we live. They put their billboard right there. This is not your neighborhood. They put the billboard about Susan right side of our neighborhood right down here.

They did their little flyer campaign in our neighborhood. They taped flyers right to the post in front of my house. Why would you have a hard time, though, with getting her picture out? I mean, it's just a fair— I don't have a hard time, though, with getting her picture out? I don't have a hard time. We've actually talked about putting a picture, you know, a page on our website called The 50 Faces of Susan Powell. We got pictures of Susan. That went down in a public area at a shopping center. So there's no love lost between Susan's family and Josh's family that was specifically

aimed at Josh's dad who I see as part and parcel of this whole thing of Susan's disappearance not just the husband Josh but the dad he had almost a Svengali uh, I thought, Ann Bremner, over the husband, Josh Powell. Because the dad, and I'll put it out there, he is a perv. He is a perv. And he had some sort of control over Josh, Ann. Well, absolutely, Nancy. And Steven Powell was, of course, filming Little Girls Next Door naked. I represented those little girls next door naked.

I represented those little girls. He had like 4,500 pages of things relating to Susan during a search warrant execution. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right there. Hold on. He had what? Now, this is the father-in-law. He has what on mommy?

4,500 pages relating to her. Nancy, and you covered this really well back at the time and covered this case you know beautifully um this tragic case overall you actually read from some of these journals some of the entries he had about susan i mean he was obsessed he was a voyeur with her he stalked her um didn't he steal her underwear after she put him in the dirty hamper it's just so troubling okay all right there karen stark new york psychologist no wonder susan's father hated her father-in-law steve Powell. Steve Powell would steal Susan's underwear out of the dirty clothes and take it. Karen, there's got to be a name for that. Well, it's definitely a perversion.

He wants to sniff her underwear, so he's into an, in addition to wanting the person. And there's a sexual, a strong sexual desire to be in contact with this person. So he's obsessed with her, Nancy. 4,500 pages of photos and so forth on his daughter-in-law. Denise Ernst, this is Susan's sister. It almost makes me sick to even report that in light of the fact that Susan is missing and we have no idea where she is. And this pervy father-in-law just dies and that's forever an avenue. We'll never get answers from him.

Did Susan have any idea the lengths her father-in-law would go to? No, Susan didn't. She knew that he had an obsession with her when she caught him peeping at her at his house when she lived there with Josh. And she told me about it so that she felt uncomfortable around him and he wouldn't stop looking at her and he made advances towards her um I honestly don't think she knew the extent of his sick perversion that he had towards her but I do know that he had once said to her that he wanted to share her with Josh, and Josh was okay with it. Take a listen to what the Purvey father-in-law, Steve Powell, tells ABC News' Abby Boudreau about his relationship with Susan. Susan was very, very sexual with me.

She was very flirtatious. I mean, I'm her father-in-law, and she would do a lot of things that, I mean, she was just, she did it, I did it. I mean, we interacted in a lot of sexual ways because susan enjoys doing that do you think a part of you started falling in love with susan that's pretty likely yeah i mean i yeah i wouldn't say so and and and there's no question in my mind that the feelings were mutual. Of course Steve Powell is lying. Of course he is. Where is Susan Cox Powell?

The young mother of two goes missing. And coincidentally, that very same night, her husband Josh claims he's taken the boys camping in freezing weather at midnight. Now we know, this is new evidence to me, that the dad is spotted, her husband is spotted at a local hotel taking the boys to the breakfast buffet. And one boy says to a worker there, you know what happened to my mommy? And later, the boys draw a picture of Mommy in the car trunk. Well, the investigation into the location of Susan Cox Powell has really been dealt a mortal blow, a real kick in the teeth with the death, the sudden death of her father-in-law, who's a perv in his own right, Steve Powell. He has just died.

Is the investigation over? No, it is not. Where is Susan Cox Powell? I find it very intriguing that Susan Cox was making a video documenting her possessions inside her home just before she goes missing. Why was that to Denise Ernstnt susan's sister joining me why was she doing a video describing possessions in the home uh she was told by her lawyer that she had acquired uh that she needed to document everything um for insurance reasons and also for reasons if they were to separate she had everything documented on who bought what and who owned what even though you know they're married Susan had to document everything they had in the house oh man basically it was started out as insurance reasons but uh Susan had told me that she was making sure that she had everything on camera to where Josh couldn't deny what they had. Because he would have tried to take it away.

Take a listen to Susan, now missing, making her own video of the family possessions. This is Susan Cox Powell. Listen. This is me. Hi. Sorry. making her own video of the family possessions. This is Susan Cox Powell. Listen. This is me. Hi. Sorry. And it is, can you see that? 11.44 a.m. And I am documenting all our assets just in case of any emergencies, fire, flood, damage, disputes. And we have two Samsung monitors. This is Josh's computer, and there's some type of backup device and speakers.

Here's the kind of pimping out stuff he's done to his computer. He built it himself I think there's like five hard drives something about digging raids there's those for all the computer geeks and Josh locked this but this is all of his files locked Those are his files and he bought expensive stuff like these are I think this was like a couple with the sudden death of Susan Cox Powell's father-in-law who is a perv in his own right. It's an entirely different matter. The case has been dealt a mortal blow. Today we are trying to piece together the puzzle as to where is Susan Cox. Now, according to her husband, Josh Powell, he loves her deeply. Take a

listen to Josh Powell in an ABC interview. Did you kill your wife? No. Did you have anything to do with the disappearance of your wife? No. Nothing? Nothing. What is the truth? People who know me know that I'm a good dad. I work hard. I put my sons first. I was a good husband. I took care of my family. And I see you're still wearing your wedding band. Yeah. You still love her? Yeah. I guess you could say that I still love her. Why take your two young sons camping after midnight, freezing cold temperatures?

Well, we just go out and do things that are fun. But it's after midnight. Shouldn't your sons be sleeping? Weren't they sleeping? People who know me know that time is hard for me to keep track of. I tend to be spontaneous. I do things in the spur of the moment. Why not call work the next morning to say, hey, I was out camping. I'm not going to be in today. To be honest, Saturday was a blur. I was convinced it was still Saturday. I want to go back to the night that Susan Powell goes missing.

To Ann Bremner, what more do we know? Well, we know that there were fans, of course, drawing the floor there. It was later determined to be blood. Her purse was still in the house. Josh took the SIM card out of her phone, and then he acted like he tried to call her at work. He said he forgot what day it was. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. I'm drinking out of a fire hydrant here, Ann Brimner. Tell me that again. Took the SIM card out of her phone? Yes, and it was actually found or seen between the seats of his own car. So, you know, this is the, and the police at that time, you know, they talked, they talked to the kids, that's tape recorded, you know, they talked to Josh, and they're

investigating this case, but that was a huge clue. I mean, she, he's got her phone, and he takes a SIM card right out of it, because he knows she's not coming back. I find that to be extremely persuasive. What do you make of it? With me, the Cox family, private investigator Rose Winquist. Well, I think, Nancy, any time someone's phone is left behind and further, the SIM card's been removed, that's a pretty good indicator

that he knew for a fact that she wasn't coming back. I think it's overwhelming. Denise, this is Susan's sister. What do you make of it? I believe that when, you know, just like Rose was saying, Nancy, that she wasn't coming back and he was trying to fool everybody. Josh always thought he was smarter than the world.

He had actually told my, well, I heard him say, I don't remember who else was in the room, that he could hide a body and nobody would ever find it. So I believe he thought he was trying to outsmart the police and family, everybody pointing fingers at him, that she wasn't around by removing the sim card how what happened to that sim card i'd like to know take a listen to the husband josh powell as he speaks with abc you think she's watching that i miss her that she's

that i love her that she's got two boys who love her you know earlier and remner we were talking about this um stronghold the father-in-law steve Powell, who's just died, seemed to have on his son, Josh. After Susan goes missing, isn't it true they move, they leave the jurisdiction and move to another state? That's right. They left and moved to Utah. They were trying to save money, but they didn't have a lot of money. So they lived with Stephen for a while. And basically were in a room in the house and used like a shower curtain or curtains you know for privacy and Stephen would be peeping at her making her uncomfortable you know there was an interesting quote that was out here in the Tacoma News Tribune sometime back and it said something like never has so much tragedy been visited on one family

by one man meaning Stephen Powell and thatangoli-like ability had to control Josh and his obsession with Susan and his failure to talk. He's never said anything, anything whatsoever that would be helpful to the investigation. And when we're talking about the father-in-law's creepy diary, what did we learn in it? What of significance regarding Susan? I don't care about his perversions.

I care about Susan. What do we know? Well? What of significance regarding Susan? I don't care about his perversions. I care about Susan. What do we know? Well, he was obsessed with her. He acted like he would talk about certain events where he would say that, you know, he was aroused and he could tell she was looking at him through the reflection in a window. You know, he would talk about, you know, he would stalk her and take footage of her stills and video and act as if she was reciprocating his interest. He would give her hosiery and then talk about her wearing it and how she supposedly felt attraction to him when he was wearing it.

He took a picture of her where she was holding a bird in her hand, like kissing a bird, and he morphed it to put his own private parts on her finger and kissing his private parts and I could go on and on and it's just sick but he had these fantasies that she felt the same way and he would write at length about her you know that in itself I find deeply deeply disturbing and also the fact that the husband would go along with it. To Denise Ernst, this is Susan Cox's sister. When they were together, what was their relationship like? They were pretty, they bickered a lot.

And at first it was, you know, get a room kind of thing. They were always clinging on each other and doing everything together and just inseparable but as time wore on it was basically a stay away from me kind of thing they didn't talk they didn't communicate they didn't they weren't close at all. It was more of, again, he owned her and she did what he told her to. It was more of a partnership kind of because she actually quit doing hair and things that she wanted to do for a living and got her license as a real estate agent just so she could answer his phone calls in case somebody was in person in the house. Stephen Powell, the father-in-law, a convicted sex offender, the father of the man we believe, Josh Powell, is involved in his wife's disappearance, has just died. Did the secrets of Susan Powell's disappearance die with him? We know Powell, Steve Powell, was hospitalized for heart complications.

He just died in St. Joseph Medical Center, Tacoma, according to sheriffs. What we know is Susan is still missing, and the family has no peace. Washington State investigators are very open on the fact that they believe that the husband, Josh Powell, killed Susan. They were unable to produce enough evidence to prompt a murder investigation. I don't get it. Why, Ann Bremner? If this case had been prosecuted at the get-go, we may know more about it. We may have even been able to save Susan. Well, absolutely. And the excuse, if you want to use that word, I don't think it's the right word, but basically

the reason that was given by the West Valley City authorities was we don't have a body. And Nancy, you and I well know that there's plenty of cases that have been prosecuted without a body and there were circumstantial and direct evidence in this case but they seem to keep wanting to think that there would be some word from Josh or maybe even Steven and other witnesses that would finish the case and that never came to pass you know they would say well we, we're going to be close, and hopefully something will happen with this search or different things. But nothing came to pass that cinched that case for him.

And so it was never prosecuted, which is a real tragedy. Take a listen to Steve Powell before he passed away. The answer, it would be Josh's vindication, that we would move on. They have Susan, they maybe have Steven Kosher, who we think she's with. I still believe that's a possibility. But we thought that would be the end of it.

We thought they had them down there and they were just going down to pick them up. Maybe they had to get an extradition or order of some kind and from Nevada and then they you know Friday morning they'd have a big announcement for us and we'd all move on and live happily ever after. It just didn't happen. We're really disappointed. So you're believing she's alive? Oh yeah we believe that. We believe she's alive. We believe she left with somebody. We're not sure if she's still with that somebody, but I don't know. She probably is.

Here you hear the father-in-law who seems to be extremely interested in his daughter-in-law's romantic life claiming she ran away with a boyfriend. You know what? She didn't have a boyfriend. That has been clearly proven by police. What is he even talking about to Denise Ernst? This is Susan's sister. What is he talking about? I don't know. He's just trying to get, I believe he's just trying to get the focus taken off him and pointing the blame at somebody else. If Susan had a boyfriend,

she would have told me. She would have been happy. She wouldn't have been acting upset and frustrated and feeling trapped like she was. The search goes on for Susan Cox Powell, her family hanging, hanging in the balance, wanting answers to Ann Bremner, Denise Ernst, Rose Wingquist, and Karen Stark. The search goes on. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.