Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FBI: CHARLIE KIRK CONSPIRACY THEORIES LEGIT? SUSPECT’S 'MALE LOVER' EYED

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

FBI Director Kash Patel released a statement revealing the FBI is now investigating several “Conspiracy theories” about Charlie Kirk’s murder are circulating online.  They include theories about possible accomplices, the authenticity of the text conversation between Robinson and his roommate, the bullet’s trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black, was clad in white that day. Online sleuths are also hung up on the bullet's trajectory, since clear video of the shooting is still widely available online. Social media users of the younger generations are also questioning the authenticity of Robinson’s text messages to his “surprised” romantic partner.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Franz Borghardt - Criminal Defense Attorney, Founder of Borghardt Law Firm, Former Prosecutor, Adjust Professor at Louisiana State University Teaching Criminal Litigation, website: www.borghardtlawfirm.com, Instagram and Facebook: BorghardtLawFirm Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock, www.drbethanymarshall.com , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive   Koa Lorimor - Former Army Sniper   Chris McDonough - Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, worked over 300 Homicides in 25-year career, Trained the first Native American Homicide Task Force; & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic  Victoria Churchill- U.S. Political Reporter for DailyMail.com,  Instagram & Facebook: VictoriaSnitsarChurchill,   Sydney Sumner - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The FBI says the Charlie current conspiracy theories are legit. That's the first time we've ever heard that from the government. Think about it. JFK, UFOs, it goes on and on and on. But tonight, Cash Patel says, he is actually investigating the many, many conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of Charlie Kirk.

This, as the suspect's male lover, is eyed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Less than two weeks ago, our country was robbed of one of the brightest lights of our times. My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save. young men just like the one who took his life

Kirk's wife Erica wowing the crowd and sending a message like no other this as Cash Patel the director of the FBI is literally chasing down conspiracy theories listen FBI director Patel now investigating

conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's murder, Patel was able to dismiss a theory a pilot was involved because they turned off their transponder moments after the shooting, but says others could be credible. They include theories about accomplices, authenticity of the text conversation between Robinson and his roommate, the bullet's trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black, was clad and white that day. You know, I've never heard the government even acknowledge conspiracy theories much less state that they will be investigated with me and all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight in the Charlie Kirk shooting straight out to Victoria Churchill joining us from Washington

US political reporter daily mail.com Victoria what is Patel saying? I think director Patel is saying that he wants to explore everything and anything connected to this but this should come as no surprise because Patel considered Kirk a close friend, a ally in the MAGA movement, and the greater conservative movement. But I also do want to point out that Director Patel and the FBI as a whole, maybe have not necessarily been at the forefront of this investigation, despite what they have said. Because, of course, Robinson was turned in by his own father. Hold on, little lady. Whoa. They had the suspect in custody within 30. 33 hours. Take a look at your crime stats. That rarely happens. So, you know, a lot was made

Victoria Churchill of the arrest of two individuals, one claiming, I did it. Of course they arrested him. He was cleared. Then another. So explain to me your reasoning. So the first individual is somebody who I have heard from people that have actually been active in Utah politics, conservative politics in particular in Utah. This is somebody that is somebody that is a known agitator. And so I think there was no surprise that he was there. But he also went in for questioning. But again, this is somebody that didn't like conservatives.

So maybe he wanted to claim for some crazy reason. I don't know why he would want to do this. But he possibly wanted to claim responsibility for this. But again, Robinson was turned in by his own father. So at least at this point, we don't know how close the FBI would have been to finding him. if he was not submitted by his own father to the authorities. Guys, conspiracy theories, as they are being called, are now being taken as legitimate avenues of investigation,

starting with a lot of hand signals. Listen. Eagle-eyed internet sleuth zeroed in on the behavior of Kirk's attendance just before he was shot. A man standing six feet from Kirk in a white shirt and white baseball cap is seen recording the debate on his phone. Seconds before the shot, that man tips his cap then wipes his nose. A second man in a black shirt glances at the man as he adjusts his white cap, then touches his right arm before folding his arms.

Many theorized the hand signals or indications to the shooter. Okay, that was investigated, and this is what we found. Listen. The man in the white hat was giving signals to the shooter. Yeah, the man in the white hat was me, okay? I did this with my hat. Maybe I touched my nose or something while I'm holding my phone because I'm FaceTime and my son and daughter-in-law. Charlie Kirk was literally like a son to me.

I have three sons. He was like my fourth son. My three sons are a little bit older than Charlie. He was like my fourth son. So when he was hit, if your son got hit, what would you do? What would you do? Charlie wasn't there. His eyes were fixed.

He wasn't looking at me. He was looking past me right into eternity. He was with Jesus already. That is my friends over at Cross Examined the podcast. And speaking is Frank Torek. Let's see that video again. He is the guy wearing the hat who is making hand signals just before Kirk is murdered just before. And you see the other guy in the blue, navy, or black t-shirt,

you know, he's making movements as well. So, you know, straight out to Franz of Borghardt joining us, founder of Borghardt law firm, former prosecutor, professor of Louisiana State University, Franz, thank you for being with us. You know what? So one theory. shot down pretty quickly, and that boat's ill for the others, but they've got to be investigated. Have you ever had a crazy theory pop up in the middle of a trial or during trial prep? For instance, like a false confession, you have to chase it down. So as a defense attorney, I love crazy theories, Nancy, because it creates chaos and it gives me something to work with, especially in cases where it's open and shut like this one.

We know who shot Kurt. We know who we got the right guy, right? And we can claim that these individuals behind him are making hand gestures, doing the macarena or whatever. But conspiracy doesn't change the facts. And yeah, you're absolutely right. They have to vet it. They have to investigate it. I just don't like the head of the FBI making tweets about it because, again, it's giving fuel to the absurd.

Okay. Wait, let me understand this. Franz the Borghard. doesn't like the director of the FBI's tweets. Oh, okay, you in about half the nation. Do you think he cares

that Franz, Borgart, or anybody doesn't like his tweets? What's wrong with his tweets? He's just putting it out there. We're used to so much secrecy within the government. So what's your problem? You can tweet all he wants. The problem is, does he have an active knowledge of the investigation? And if he doesn't, his tweets create defenses.

So as someone in the criminal justice, the system. I only want people making informational exchanges that have active fingers on the pulse of the investigation. And heaven forbid, he's just making a tweet about conspiracies and he doesn't really have it. And look, the head of agencies don't always have their fingers on the pulse. Franz, we don't know what he knows or doesn't know. Okay. He may know. I'm willing to guess he knows more about the Kirk investigation than we do. However, Cardinal rule number one from the elected district attorney who I worked for, who was, I believe, the greatest elected district attorney in the country served 37 years, longest at that time. Don't speak to the press. It's not

that the press or a multi-headed hydra. It's that you commit yourself to a theory, you put it out there and that could change. You only hurt your case. So from me and you to Patel, shut your pie hole right now. These leads may in fact be legitimate. We don't know that yet, but this hand signal thing, that was all BS technical legal term. Okay, let's move on to the next one and it has to do with the trajectory angle. Listen. Online sleuths are also hung up on the bullets trajectory since clear video the shooting is still widely available online. Many believe Kirk was wearing a bulletproof vest and the bullet fractured against the vest

sending a fragment into his neck. Others believed the shot ricocheted off the turning point banner behind him and what was caught on camera was the bullet exiting from the front of his neck. In an emotional tribute at his memorial, Erica Kirk said doctors told her, if Charlie had been shot in an operating room, it wouldn't have made a difference claiming Kirk was gone instantaneously. You know, I used to tell myself the same.

same type of thing after my fiancé was murdered. He didn't feel it. He didn't know what happened. If he had been shot in the hospital, it wouldn't have made a difference. I don't know that any of that's true. Now, can we talk about this Kirk wearing a bulletproof vest? There's no evidence of that at all. But regarding the exit wound, we stated at the get-go to Joe Scott Morgan joining us,

Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. star of a hit podcast series, Body Baggs with Joe Scott Morgan. For my purposes, a death investigator with over 1,000 death scenes under his belt. All sorts, accidental, natural causes, undetermined, suicide, and, of course, homicide. Joe Scott, day one, we knew or had surmised there was no exit wound. There's no conspiracy to that. No, there's not. And if that is the idea here, just follow my logic, you're going to have to get the surgeon who attended him at the emergency room, at the hospital where he was evacuated to. And you're also going to have to get the state medical examiner's office, the forensic pathologist that was involved in this case, to get on board also relative to all this. What we're hearing right now is that, This is a single gunshot wound to the neck and that the round was actually found beneath the skin.

I don't know why this is such a mystery. I don't know why people say that this is an empirical impossibility. Nancy, I've handled a lot of gunshot wounds involving high velocity rounds where the bullet does not completely exit the body. It just doesn't happen every single time. So everybody out there who's grandpathy. the I would say the majority of homicide cases I have investigated or prosecuted have at least one bullet still in the body so I don't understand the uproar about the fact that his bullet lodged in his neck how first of all how could it have lodged in the neck it's for me it's SOP standard operating procedure that at least one bullet stays in the body and I'm glad I mean if you can make a silver lining out of a murder. I'm glad the bullet was retrieved from the body because the next thing we would know with the big conspiracy theory that that's not the real bullet you found on the ground. That's not

it. Yeah. That was placed there. Even if it fragmented, if you have the base of the round, you can take that base of the round and do the testing based upon the rifle that they did in fact recover. And look, if it doesn't match up, fine and good. Go look for another rifle out there. But if the Rifling on this round that was recovered at autopsy, which would have been at the Utah State Medical Examiner's Office, which, let me reinforce again, is a fine organization and are now being accused by people online as being part of a grander conspiracy. If that round was recovered at autopsy, it'll be compared ballistically. It'll be compared either at the state crime lab in Utah or it'll be compared at Quantico with the FBI's resources that they have there. We still don't even have an autopsy report yet. Let me tell you another bit of reporting that will come out.

Also, there will be surgical notes. So if people have questions about this, this random surgeon that was on duty, he will write up a report based upon what he saw in his examination of Charlie Kirk at that moment immediately after this had happened. He will talk about this in great detail. Those records will be with the state medical examiner. They would have reviewed them. they will give their own opinion about this.

And I can tell you there was more than one forensic pathologist in that room while his examination would have been done. There would have been multiple eyes on this case. Joining us shortly, a ballistics expert to show us and explain to us all about the weapon, the Mouser that was used to kill Charlie Kirk and the bizarre engravings on the bullet. and exactly how this shot could have gone down without a conspiracy, a group of people helping the shooter. Is it rational? Don't know. We'll hear from Coeloramore in just one moment, but first to Dr. Bethany Marshall. We're now psychoanons joining side of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock, and you can find her at Dr. Bethanymarshal.com. Dr. Bethany, here's the deal.

Yes, some of these theories are falling through. I'm curious, why do people, why can't they just accept the truth? Why does there have to be a conspiracy? You know, when Joe Scott and I went to the scene in Texas where JFK was shot and I examined it for myself and I reviewed the video, I'd always thought that's just a bunch of hogwash conspiracy. But when I saw JFK's head go forward from a shot, then backwards from another shot, I will do. tell you, it stopped me in my tracks. Also, can we think about Gabby Petito for one moment? If it had not been for an online sleuth, red, blue, and methane, I believe was their

name, who had been following Gabby's disappearance online, and they saw her white four transit parked in dispersed camping, which is in the middle of nowhere, not a porty-potty, not a water hookup, no lights, nothing out there with the coyotes and the critters, they saw that by happenstance, and they solved the case the mystery as to where her remains were. So before we poo-poo conspiracy theorists, let's keep that in mind. But my question to you, Dr. Bethany, is why can't people, for instance, as Joe Scott was saying, except the bullet did not exit his neck? Bam!

What's with the conspiracy theories? and one of those conspiracies about why the bullet did not exit his neck is that he was out there to save people and even in death he saved people by blocking the bullet from the people behind him so we could go on and on you know nancy conspiracy theorist i don't think that's really conspiracy theory that's more of an observation okay okay well not exiting his neck it potentially may have saved a bystander from getting shot that's just what two plus two The idea was that he had some magical property. I'm talking about all the other zany theories, like a plane was supposed to take off with the killer. There's a whole group of theories of supporters helping the shooter. I mean, the theories are really spinning out, and Patel has to track down every one. So explain to me the mindset of a conspiracy theorist.

Next, you're going to be telling me that's not his body in the coffin. A conspiracy theorist believes that if there's a big event, there's a big cause. They can't believe just that some crazy guy was on the top of a roof and shot this guy because he was full of hatred. They also turn correlation into causation. Like if two things seem remotely similar, there's definitely a causation between the two. They take random events and they try to form a path. pattern out of them, even if there's no pattern at all. The only pattern I see here, Nancy,

is somebody who is very hateful, who wanted to take out Charlie Kirk. That is the only pattern. We have patterns in forensic science, in psychology. This whole, I'm listening to what you're saying, but I want you to look at your monitor, because this is a perfect example. It looks totally weird, right? It looks. Look at that. That looks like a baseball empire. The one in the black, the dark shirt as well. And, you know, I get where they're coming from. It was totally unconnected to the shooting, but taking one or two facts and cobbling them together and coming up with a theory. Why do people do that? Is it their need for the truth? There's a need to feel that our universe is reliable, that the patterns of this earth are reliable and there's an

explanation for everything, but they find the explanation in linking things together that are they're unlinkable. You can't link somebody with a nervous tick. This guy with the arms on his shirt, he looks like he has a nervous tick, Nancy. Dare I say it, of a very, very old piece of poetry by Thomas Hardy, as I recall. It's called HAP, HAP, which is short for happenstance, where Hardy opines, I'd rather there be some evil minion god small g

that wishes ill on me that's making me suffer as opposed to thinking this is all just by happenstance just happened I think our minds want to make sense of something that just happened

because it doesn't fit in the order of our lives But you know, Nancy, this is a part of our survival mechanism. If we did not know where a predator was, we would be more likely to be killed or eaten. But if we knew where the predator was, then we could save ourselves. Like say our answers, Cestors, if they're running through the forest, they're running from a bear, but they don't know where the bear is hiding. There's a greater likelihood that they will be killed. So now in our modern day society, in the face of the unknown, we have much.

greater anxiety. I'm thinking about patients, people who get ghosted or canceled or somebody doesn't return the call, that is much scary for, scarier for them than if like a new date just called and said, hey, I'm not that into you. We all want certainty in our world. I am filing the criminal information charging Tyler James Robinson age 22 with the following crimes. Count one, aggravated murder, a capital offense. For intentionally, we're knowingly causing the death in Charlie Hurd under circumstances that created a great risk of death to others. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, a first-degree felony felony. That man, that young man, I forgive him.

I forgive him because it was what Christ did and his wife Charlie would do. The answer to hate is not hate. That from our friends at Turning Point, that is Erica Kirk, forgiving her husband. husband's killer. She's stronger than me. It's just all I can say. Now, Trump has a very different opinion and is calling for the death penalty. That is a whole other can of worms.

Joining us right now, a special guest, former Army sniper, ballistics expert, Koa Larimore. Coa, thank you for being with us. As you know, conspiracy theory, are swirling, many of them involving the shooter and the shot specifically, saying that the shot is impossible for someone that is not a sharpshooter like yourself. First of all, let's just start with A and get to Z. Explain to me the shot, as you understand it, that killed Charlie Kirk. The shot is very doable. Charlie Kirk was in a vulnerable position at the bottom of the bottom of

of a fishbowl, right? The shooter had an elevated position where he could see pretty much anything. The distance is also 160 yards. So at the end of the day, with a couple of range sessions, that's not that far and very doable. With a couple of what sessions? Range.

So like going to the range a couple of times, it's a very, very doable shot. You know what? I'm glad you said that hold on, COA. Chris McDonough joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube.

Chris, they better be tracking down every firing range within a 10, 20 mile radius to see if they can get the shooter on cam. Yeah, no question about it, Nancy. And, you know, this investigation obviously is still very fluid. It's got two prongs to it. The first one is from the State Bureau of Investigation there in Utah, and they're under the umbrella of what they call SIAC, statewide information and analysis. Center. Those are the guys that are chasing most of these conspiracy theories, et cetera. And then the second lane here is the FBI. And what the FBI's done is they've brought in their, you know, evidence teams. And they're going to do a laser trajectory analysis. And they're going to

match that up to what COA's talking here, whether or not the shooter could have actually shot from that position. It's a no-brainer. I agree with Doc Morgan and as well as COA. And, you know, to Franz Borghardt joining us, veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, founder Borghardt's law firm. Franz, you're right in that every one of these conspiracies that are being spun out is fodder for the defense, okay? All these claims that the shot was impossible, that the perp in custody couldn't have done it. That's just more fuel for the flame. and some good defense attorney is going to make hay with that. So where there's smoke, there's fire, Nancy, and sometimes there's smoke screens.

And the more chaos a defense attorney can play with, the more opportunity there is for reasonable doubt. Or in this case, possibly getting a juror to say, hey, I think he did it, but I don't want to put him to death. So all of this stuff, all of this stuff is just fuel for what is otherwise seemingly an open and shut. case against this person. Says you. You know, we thought that about O.J. Simpson, too, and Robert Blake and Todd, I'm Casey Anthony. We always say, open and shut. Well, it ain't a legal term. You know what? Let's get away from flights of fancy and old English literature. And back to Coal Loramore joining us. Okay, so you're saying the shot is possible with a few practices at the range. What else can you tell me about the weapon that we believe was used? Next thing we're

going to hear, it's not that weapon. It was somebody else's weapon that hasn't been recovered. Tell me about the weapon. Yes, Nancy. So it was a bolt action rifle, a little bit older than what I have right here, right? Bolt action meaning you have to chamber around physically every time you press the trigger. Now, these rifles are very accurate. And using that weapon, you can achieve very accurate fire at longer distances than 160 yards. Okay, here's my question right there. You said this weapon is very accurate as compared to what? What's not accurate?

A Daisy B shotgun for a 12-year-old? What do you mean? This one is accurate. What about all the others? How is this one different? So the difference between his and others, right? He had the advantage of having also a scope on it, right? This is going to magnify his target, and it's going to make it a lot easier to shoot.

It'll be a clearer picture. It'll zoom it in. It's just going to make it overall easier for him. Give me an example. Like, if I look through that at an ant 100 feet away, what would it look like? Would I be able to see as a little bitty insect eyes? How close are we talking? It's like having it in a magnifying glass.

So if you were to zoom it in on an ant, right, depending on the magnification, whether that's eight times to 20 times, it could be the size of a human. So, Coah, you're a sharpsheater, but could a regular person make this shot? Yes, I believe a regular person can make this shot. I've got a lot of questions. First of all, when we say a 30-0.6, we're referring to the bullet. What do you know about the bullet? So this is the bullet right here, Nancy. This is a 30-od-6.

It travels at about 2,900 feet per second. It also is used in Middle America for big game hunting. Deer, elk, hogs, so on and so forth. What do you make of claims the bullet could not have lodged in Charlie Kirk's neck? I think definitely anything is possible. I think why people are saying that is just because it's uncommon. This round normally goes through people. Why? I don't get it.

Why that bullet typically goes through and others don't? It's a larger round moving in a faster speed. That's why it's used for hunting big game. Koa, as you know, conspiracy theories are spinning out as we speak tonight. Next thing you know, we're going to hear the DNA, as in the OJ Simpson case, was planted. So explain to me in the real world, not flights to fancy, where you would explain to expect to find DNA on the weapon, on the bullets, on the casings, anywhere, and show me how the DNA would have been left. So starting off of the weapon, I definitely would expect to find DNA here. I'd expect to find it first and foremost on the trigger, right?

Also, right where I'm holding my hand on the grip of the stock. Also, when you're chambering around, you're grabbing this lever, so DNA is on there as well. And then finally, you're going to put your cheek on the stock. So saliva and stuff is going to go on here while you're breathing. Your face is on it. This is definitely going to be a DNA point as well. Well, how are you getting spit on the gun? What, COA? So you're breathing when you're taking a shot, right?

So your mouth is going to be open, right? And could be found right there on the back of the stop. That's explaining a lot. What about the bullets? So there's definitely going to be DNA on there as well. While loading the rounds, right? You have to load them into the chamber, the magazine. So you're definitely going to have DNA on the bullets as well,

unless you're extremely careful using gloves. Speaking of the bullets, COA, Laura Moore, evidence suggests that the killer engraved the bullets. That's another question for the, shrink. What lonely dude is sitting at home engraving bullets. But that said, how in the heck do you engrave bullets, COA? So it's very easy, Nancy. First of all, I assume take some kind of Dremel tool right here, and that spins this drill bit and allows you to carve into the side of the casing or bullet. How long would that take? I mean, you have to have pinpoint precision

to engrave a bullet. How do you do that? Have you ever seen it done? It's actually pretty quick. It's like writing with a marker, basically. Your handwriting might not be the best, but the message we'll get across. Have you ever seen it done, COA?

I've never seen anyone in my line of work engrave on their bullets, no. Because you're normal, okay? You're not hunched over an engraving desk down in the basement of Mommy's house with a light hanging over your hand, engraving. a bullet. So I'm trying to figure out what more evidence I can get. Now that you've shown me that tool, I wonder if one of those is going to be found in his home that he shared with his alleged male lover. The allegations of him being a furry, don't care. I care about, hold up that tool again. What did you call it? This is a Dremel, Nancy. But Dremel is actually

a brand name like a McDonald's or a zero. what is the actual tool called it's a it's a rotary grinder a rotary grinder okay don't move Joe Scott Morgan wants him jump in Joe Scott yeah I was and well done by Cota he he described us down to a T relative to DNA deposition two things here first off this weapon is a 90 it's a Mouser 98 that means it has an internal mag which means it's not external where you see external magazine so he would have had to the perpetrator would have had to have loaded this internally where you're pushing the rounds down point of contact would probably be the thumb

over and over and over again until he gets the internal magazine topped off now back to the Dremel tool what's going to come into play here Nancy is they're going to reach out probably to their question document section I would imagine within the FBI they're going to get samples of this guy's handwriting, and they will try to compare it, they'll try to compare it to what was left behind on the casings themselves, on that soft metal casing where he would have engraved at that point in time. And yeah, I know that it's kind of a long shot, but there are just certain things, what are referred to as neuromuscular responses between our eyes and our writing that you can't change. There will be features there that will be identifiable

relative to his handwriting. Colarmore, I know you heard all that Joe Scott just said, which was a lot of information. You are a former Army sniper. You can make this shot. You say a regular person could make the shot. How long did you train? What does that mean to be an Army sniper? First off, Army sniper school was five weeks long.

Also, I've trained for two years to become an Army sniper. and then you have follow-on schools, which I competed in the international sniper competition, and I also participated in Army Mountain Rifleman course. So that's the Army's Mountain Sniper School. The messages also refer to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique. Messages from the contact Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been. and engraved on casings found with the rifle.

Inscriptions on a fired casing read, notices bulges, capital O-W-O, what's this question mark? Inscriptions on the three unfired casings read, hey fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point, up arrow symbol, right arrow and symbol and three down arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read,

Oh, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Chow, and a third unfired casing red. If you read this, you are gay, L-M-A-O. Robinson's neighbors speculating about the suspect since he was arrested. Robinson and his roommate were known recluses, rarely seen leaving their home except for work and school, and virtually never entertaining visitors. However, neighbors noticed an unusual amount of traffic on their street in the weeks leading up to the shooting, and they did not recognize any of the cars, many of them marked with out-of-state plates. It's called routine evidence, not that it's typical routine, but evidence of someone's routine.

These two, the shooting suspect and roommate, alleged furry, were recluses. To Victoria Churchill joining us, political reporter, Daily Mail.com, joining us out of D.C. this true? They rarely had people in their home. That was very unusual for them, but yet leading up to the time of the shooting, it was like a parking lot. So many cars outside their home. Neighbors had never seen that before, Victoria. This is kind of, I think, what Erica Kirk, his widow, was talking about at the memorial on Sunday, that there is an epidemic of men who are lonely and need to find a purpose and a calling and a community. And, you know, it seems like these two outside of each other did not have much of that. And, you know, this is a reason

why community, and I mean, just outside of this case, this is something that gets talked about a lot by conservatives is to change the politics. You have to change the culture. And in our culture, there's a lot of a lack of, you know, so-called third spaces where people aren't at home, aren't at work, or aren't at school and aren't at home. Community gathering and finding like-minded individuals, I think is something that plagues, you know, Generation Z, Generation Alpha, even some millennials, particularly men,

who may not necessarily be more social. I think women tend to be a little bit more social. And so, you know, it's not surprising that these two, and particularly Robinson, who is, you know, at least right now, the shooter in this case, that he who did not have a community, to not have a group of support to make sure and have... What does you mean by that?

At least right now is the shooter. Do you think somebody else is the shooter? Well, this is the evidence that we are going off of right now, as is the FBI and as is everyone else. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Bethany, Marys. Marshall. That was a mouthful, all of which everything Victoria Churchill said is true. Now, I've got to take what she said and use it in a murder case. Help me out. Well, what I would hear

in terms of a murder case is that their primary attachments were online. So if you want to gather behavioral evidence, you're going to look at their online activity. Somebody who writes on a bullet about getting a bulge and then a meme for a smiley face after that. Again, I would think about that being sexually motivated. I know they were a part of the furry community, which was all online in this case, in which pornography and pretending to be a half-man, have a creature go together. Look around. Are you at Windsor Castle? I'm not.

We're not having high tea with Camilla. right now. The bullet was engraved about an erection. That's what this wackadoodle, not to suggest he's legally insane. He's thinking about his erection. He's engraving a bullet about his erection. The bullet he intends to use to murder Charlie Kirk. Now, I'm not a string. But that means something. What? I think it means that the aggression and the dominance over another male and the notoriety that it would bring about was sexually exciting to him. Aggression and sex go together often for men who are criminals.

We see this with serial killers. We see this with sadistic rapists. We see this with pedophiles. They try to control the victim, have power over the victim. the victim and it is sexually exciting to them. I would think that the motivation for this crime, while many people, conspiracy therapists, theorists, you, I, everybody,

we would want to think it's politically motivated, like there would be something meaningful or reasonable or at least some type of motivation we could understand. I think of this again as being more sexually motivated that the aggression and the violence made him feel like a man. And that's why he put it on the bullet, that went in his big old phallic symbol, the gun.

Okay, I've got a question for you. You're saying that to get motive, we're going to have to look at everything online because he basically had no interaction with anyone except for his alleged male lover. So that's what we're looking at. How does his fantasy life regarding furries fit into his out-of-body experiences?

Well, I think with furries, There are many aspects of the furry community, but one aspect is called ERP, which is erotic role play, in which one dresses up as a furry or as an animal. Other people tell them what to do, and they create vignettes in which they interact with each other. Now, I don't know if he was a voyeur or doing this online, but this tells me that this guy lives in a fantasy world, that there is a lot of roleplay going on. Now, furries also have personalities or they wear fur suits. So they dress up as people. They are not. It's not just furries.

This guy's interested in. It's not just his alleged male lover. It's really crossing the line. Listen to one site in which he's interested. Robinson's horn history surfaces. Robinson earned an award on Steam. for frequently playing furry shades of gay, a collection of choose-your-own-adventure sex scenes

between humanoid animal characters. On fur affinity.com, Robinson follows Red Rusker, a controversial artist who published cub porn between a clearly adult character and an eight-year-old possum. Robinson is friends with a user who post pornographic cartoons of women with grossly oversized bellies, sometimes having eaten their partner whole. Okay. Can you explain that to me? It's one thing to be furry. It's another thing to watch furry porn with an eight-year-old possum, which is clearly an eight-year-old boy.

You know, Nancy, because these furry characters are avatars of Tyler. Okay? They're his avatar. To Chris McDonough joining us Homicide Detective, star of the interview room. You know, the neighbors are stating, that the alleged Perp's home was thronged with vehicles, which is very uncharacteristic. These two were reclusive. You went to the scene. Somebody's got to have door cam, which means the fans are going to have video

of everybody outside that home. Let's see a shot of the home that McDonough took. Yeah, Nancy. I mean, they're going to have not only hopefully some door cam video, but maybe some license plates as well that are coming in and out of that you know neighborhood there and and you know talking about all this furry stuff I mean maybe this guy should just have been booked at the Humane Society because I mean this stuff this stuff is put him up is absolutely

you know what this is not a time for levity let's move forward with the evidence and the evidence is what can we make of the vehicles part if anything yeah well it just tells us that there's a a secondary possibility that you know he's got a lot of friends that may have had pre-incident knowledge about this and one other thing about the let's talk about the showcasing again one more time at his house they found a showcasing with additional engraving on it that tells me maybe they also have the box and if there's a box then there's a lot number on those on that box they're going to They're going to chase it down. Also, we are hearing conspiracy theories hatched from another neighbor that sees the alleged shooter walking through, yakking on his phone immediately after the shot. Question is, who's he talking to? Who else knows about the shooting? A homeowner in the neighborhood just off campus where Robinson stashed his Dodge Challenger turned over doorbell footage of a man they believed to be Robinson walking past their home,

talking on his cell phone just minutes after the shooting. The homeowners told FBI they heard the man mentioned the shooting in his conversation, leading to suggestions Robinson told at least one other person of his plans and may have an accomplice. Candice Owens published a never-before-seen photo of Robinson after the shooting. Robinson is seen standing at the counter in a dairy queen 17 minutes from campus in a maroon shirt, jeans, and wearing a black hat with black sunglasses on top. Owens claims the photo was taken at 6.38 p.m. while Robinson waited to retrieve his grandfather's rifle. That photo on the left from Candace Owen, Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter, even if that is Robinson, how does that fit into the timeline?

Well, this fits. It shows that he was still hanging out in Orham in the area of UVU campus waiting to try and get that rifle back. We see that in that text conversation between Robinson and Lance Twigs discussing, I'm trying to leave, I wanted to be out of here by now, to get that gun back, not only to prevent him from getting caught, but because that was a family heirloom, and he was worried he would be caught if he didn't have that rifle on him, which is exactly what his father caught him on later. Send me a picture of your grandfather's rifle.

And Robinson couldn't because he didn't have it with him. More from Candace Owens. Listen. I feel this kid for some reason, some unknown reason, is being protected. And I'm not the only one. His family feels that way. Okay? His family thinks it's odd.

They don't buy the story. Okay. Lance's family is telling me that they are not buying the current story and that they feel that more people are involved. They think it's odd that the feds move. on from him so quickly and that the feds were being dishonest and they felt about everything when they first came out with information. That from Candace Owens have the feds moved on from him to Franz Borkart joining as a veteran trial lawyer. Franz, I'm not sure that they've moved on

from the roommate just because he's not in custody does not mean they've dropped his investigation. I agree. I don't think they've moved on from anybody. And just because there hasn't been an arrest yet doesn't mean there won't be an arrest. The feds are very thorough. They do a great job with their investigations. And look, oftentimes the feds will take their time with co-conspirators. Sometimes co-conspirators cooperate against principal actors. So I agree, Nancy.

I don't think we should assume anybody has moved on from anything with regard to this investigation. If you know or think you know anything about the Kirk shooting, you may think it's insignificant, But it may not be. Please dial 801-579-14-100 repeat. 801-579-1400 or go online to tips.fbi.combi.gov. And now, we remember an American hero, Sergeant Ryan Hudson, PaducaPD, killed in the line of duty after 10 years in L.E. leaving behind his grieving wife, Whitney, and two daughters, Ayana and Lela, American hero, Sergeant Ryan Hudson. Nancy Grace, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast.