Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FBI: MOVIE STAR ALEC BALDWIN DID PULL TRIGGER

Episode Date: August 17, 2022

The newly released FBI say the gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins could not have fired without the trigger being pulled. Testing conducted by the FBI showed that internal components were intact and functional, and that no matter the position of the hammer, it would not fire without the trigger being pulled.  Alec Baldwin continues to deny the action, saying on Chris Cuomo’s podcast, that "eveyone on the set knows what happened that day."  Baldwin added that the only question now is who put a live round in the gun?  A decision has yet to be made by the Santa Fe District attorney about any charges against the actor. However, Hutchins’ family named Baldwin in a pending wrongful death lawsuit. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Steve Wolf - 30 Years working as an armorer in TV & Film, CEO - Team Wildfire, teamwildfire.com Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Dave Mack - Crime Online Investigative Reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Are the walls closing in for movie star Alec Baldwin? Is his gun lie, as some portray it, falling apart? Remember when the shooting occurred on the set of Rust? He insisted he never pulled the trigger.

Well, the FBI says something entirely different. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. A brand new FBI report has come out, a ballistics analysis. What does it say and what does it mean? First of all, take a listen to this. Tonight, an FBI analysis revealing new details about the investigation into the deadly shooting on the set of the movie Rust.

After testing the firearm, the FBI concluding the gun, quote, could not be made to fire without a pull of the trigger. Baldwin adamant he never pulled the trigger. Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger. So you never pulled the trigger? No, no, no, no, no. I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never. But tonight, the FBI contradicting that account, authorities contending testing showing the trigger had to have been pulled. You were hearing our friend Will Carr at ABC and you heard Alec Baldwin speaking there. And that is precisely why we have the Fifth Amendment, the right to remain silent. Now, the Constitution protects us all, including Alec Baldwin, from undue force by police or the state to make you utter a statement. It does not protect you

from mouthing off to ABC. Now, take a listen now to our friends at GMA. This has been a question now for months. Was the trigger pulled in this fatal shooting? Well, Alec Baldwin says no. FBI says yes. This morning, a new FBI analysis contradicting Alec Baldwin's account of the deadly shooting of cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of the movie Rust, one of the FBI's key findings.

After testing the firearm, the FBI concluding in a new report, the gun, quote, could not be made to fire without a pull of the trigger. Two things that stand out in these multiple FBI reports, really. Number one, they basically conclude that they contradict, really, this report that Baldwin's claim that he did not pull the trigger of the gun that killed Helena Hutchins. Number two, the FBI did some fingerprint and DNA analysis and tests on the gun, the casings, the ammunition box.

And basically it revealed that there were no surprise mystery individuals, meaning there was no evidence that anyone other than those directly involved tampered with the gun or ammunition. That's important. You're also hearing our friends at Fox News. So what does it all mean? You know, when you get a report, a scientific report from the crime lab, whether it's about DNA, fiber evidence, blood evidence, or ballistics evidence,

they're really hard to read. Like I did with medical examiners, when they would see my beat-up Honda coming their way, they'd hide under the table because they knew they were in for a grilling. Not in an angry or hostile way, but to understand what each and every line means. It's literally a scientific report. The same thing goes for ballistics.

With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now and what does this FBI report mean for movie star Alec Baldwin. To Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what do you know about the report? What we know is that the FBI did intense investigation into this gun, Nancy. They test fired it. The FBI worked through everything they could with this gun and determined that the only way this gun would be fired, could be fired, was if the trigger was pulled.

I'm just soaking in everything you said because of what we got here. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a brand new hit series on iHeart called Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, I hear everything that Dave Mack just said. I know that he's correct, but I am a JD, basically a trial lawyer. Break it down for me and try not to use any medical terms or any Latin phrases. Okay, I'll do my best. And no condescending laughter. Go ahead. Okay. All right. Okay. No worries. Well, in this particular case.

Those of us that don't know what you're talking about, don't like it when you have that condescending laughter. Okay. Go ahead. All right. Okay. The weapon was collected from the scene in New Mexico, and it was not tested by the state crime lab in New Mexico. It was sent to Quantico, Nancy. You know what?

That just gives me a chill down my spine when I hear Quantico because that's where business goes down, let me tell you. And what kind of a weapon is it, Joe Scott? Well, it's a.45 caliber revolver, and it's a single-action revolver. And if folks at home will just think about Westerns, all right? This was a Western they were filming. So you're going to use weapons that marry up to that. Now, this is what's referred to as a reproduction weapon, but it's still functional.

And this weapon fired.45 caliber ammunition. It's Colton Long, I believe, if memory serves me correctly. And so this weapon was actually sent to Quantico for their ballistics people to take a look at. And when you get into the ballistics lab, which is absolutely fascinating in our world in forensics. There's only one thing I love more than going to the morgue, Jackie, to talk to the medical examiner. And that's the ballistics division of the crime lab. You're right, Joe Scott. It's amazing.

It is. It's fascinating. And the ones I've been in, walls and walls of weapons, and it's pretty incredible. They have a huge database. But for the specific testing for this weapon, if you think about a big, what's called an external hammer, which is this large hammer on the back. You have to actually actuate the hammer. That means pull it back. And this particular weapon, I believe, has three separate settings.

You have what's called quarter cock, which means just slightly back. Wait, for those people that don't know what the hammer is. Yeah. Could you describe that, please? Yeah, it's actually functioned. It is used. You can actuate it by using your thumb. You mean it's the thing on top of the gun?

It is. And so when you pull the trigger, the hammer goes forward. All right. And it strikes. It strikes the pin. And that actually initiates the blast of the weapon. That's this process has to go on. And so when they're testing this. So when you pull the

trigger you bring down the hammer you do but the weapon has to be cocked first and by cocked you mean pull the hammer back it has to be pulled back and not just simply you can't just pull the trigger with this weapon it's a single action which means you have to there's a couple of moves you have to, there's a couple of moves. You have to pull back the hammer specifically and then pull the trigger. So you've got, yeah, all the way. Well, I'm writing this down. I heard Dale Carson, a high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, also former fed with the FBI. We also have Steve Wolf, weapons safety for film expert, years producing TV and film. We're all weighing in on this.

Me, last of all, since I'm the least experienced compared to you guys, but I heard Dale Carson jump in and he's right, Joe Scott. You have to pull the hammer back all the way on this weapon. Go ahead. Yeah, so, you know, when you begin to think about this from just a basic mechanics standpoint it requires multiple actions it's not just a matter of drawing the weapon which he used what's called a cross draw where the weapon is actually holstered on his left side he's right handed reaches across his body pulls it out so in this action he's pulling it out and apparently

cocking the hammer at the same time that means pulling it all the way back and then he has to pull the trigger and when they did the testing nancy at quantico one of the things that they found is that they do what's called a drop test where if you cock it all the way back and you drop the weapon a weapon doesn't fire on its own you have to pull the trigger. So they found that there was no defect in the weapon is what it comes down to. I'm now going to go to Steve Wolf, weapons safety for film expert, 30 years producing TV and film.

He is the CEO of TeamWildfire.com. Steve Wolf, I imagine thisbi report has shaken the prop community to its core with the reality of what can go wrong on a set jump in steve we need you now okay well first all nobody was shaken to the core i was to think of an innocent mother, wife, just standing there doing her job, get shot by what should have been a prop gun on a set. Right. You know, when I come to the studio every day, I don't think Jackie's going to pull a gun on me, I hope. Yeah. So here she is getting ready that afternoon to go home to her husband and her child.

And bam, she's lying on the floor bleeding out. So that was pretty disturbing to me. Well, it is disturbing, but the disturbing actions were not as a result of the FBI report. The FBI report really confirmed that it was a real gun and it was a working gun in working condition and that the gun did not malfunction. The malfunction, you know, was the loose nut behind the grip, Mr. Baldwin. And, you know, you don't point guns at people unless you want to hurt them. And you don't put live ammo in guns. You don't hire an armorer to make sure that your gun is safe and then send them away to

go do something else while you play with the guns. This is what happened. And it's, you know, it was not the fault of the gun. One thing that's been overlooked, though, in discussing the way this single-action gun works that nobody has mentioned is that the traditional way to fire a single-action revolver is that you cock the hammer with your thumb, and then you press the trigger with your forefinger. However, it does not have to be done in that order. And this is what I think led to this accident. You can press the trigger and then pull the hammer back and release it, and the gun will also fire if you are continuing to maintain pressure on the trigger.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys with me, in addition to Dr. Angela Arnold, Joe Scott Morgan, Dale Carson with us, a weapons safety expert, film expert at TeamWildfire.com. Steve, would you mind saying that last part? Absolutely. One more time. You said, and say it very slowly for gun dummies like myself, you said the traditional way to shoot a weapon like a.45 caliber single action Colt Long is to cock the hammer, pull the hammer back on top with your thumb, and then fire, I believe you said with your forefinger or your index finger. Traditionally, first you would pull the hammer back and then you would press the trigger and the gun would discharge as it is designed to do.

Correct. However, if in the course of grasping the gun, you are applying pressure to the trigger and you maintain that pressure on the trigger and simultaneously hold the hammer back and release it, the gun will fire. Because the sear will not engage and hold the hammer back if your finger is on the trigger. So, as opposed to the traditional way of firing, you can also simultaneously pull the trigger and pull back the hammer at the same time, and that is good or bad? It's neither good or bad, but it would explain how the gun could fire without Mr. Baldwin having been aware of intentionally pressing the trigger. Ah, okay. Because when he thinks of pressing the trigger, he means I cocked the gun and then I pressed the trigger or I didn't press the trigger.

But if he was maintaining continuous pressure on the trigger by the way he held the gun and then he pulled the hammer back and released it, the gun would discharge because the trigger was continuously depressed. I got it. I got it that time. Dale Carson with me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former fed with the FBI as an agent and author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, you know, in the district attorney's office where I prosecuted for over a decade, we had to take continual gun practice multiple times a year because assistant DAs were licensed to carry a gun and effect arrests. I, however, did not carry a gun for any of those years being a gun violence victim, but my investigator did. Anyway, during all that time, Dale Carson, I never really, while I'd practice at the range a lot, I never really understood the intricacies that we're talking about today unless it was part of

a case I was prosecuting. I've never had this specific issue come up where you know the trigger person. The trigger person says, yes, I had the gun in my hand at the time of the fatal shooting, but I didn't pull the trigger. Okay. That reminds me, who was it? Jackie Sidney. Was it Lindsay Lohan that said, yes, that's cocaine in the pocket, but those weren't my pants I had on. Okay. So how do you say that? Yes, I had the gun in my hand, but I didn't pull the trigger. Was it Lindsay Lohan? Poor thing. Now she's all grown up and happy and leading a normal life,

and I had to go bring up the cocaine in her pants. So, Dale Carson, what do you make of it? Well, your expert is absolutely right. Those guns are unusual today because when you pull, press the trigger, and it's back. Yes. You do what the cowboys always did, which was fanning the pistol. Okay. See, wait, there you go.

There you go. With a gun phrase. What's fanning the pistol? What, you're waving it around like a fan? No, I'm sorry. You hold it in your hand and with your other hand, your opposite hand, you strike the hammer all the way back and let it go. Oh, yeah, like that. Okay.

Yeah. Two-handed. And I will simply tell you that Baldwin's problem is that he runs his mouth too much. As you mentioned early on in the show, he can't be talking to the press. Well, speaking of incessant talking, take a listen to Phil Lipoff at GMA. Baldwin adamant he never pulled the trigger. Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger. So you never pulled the trigger?

No, no, no, no, no. I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never. But this morning, the FBI contending their testing shows the trigger must have been pulled. Authorities saying, based on all available information, including the absence of obvious intent to cause harm or death, the manner of death is best classified as accident. Your gun experts will basically tell you, and Alec Baldwin is not a stranger to guns, he's done a lot of movies with guns in them,

that even though, let's say I'm the armorer and I hand you the weapon and I tell you this is a cold gun gun it's not loaded it's your responsibility most experts say that you check the gun and you should not point it at someone let alone keeping your finger on the trigger when it's not necessary this is rehearsal remember uh so all those things can add up to potential liability on the part of the actor. But again, it's going to be up to the DA to determine those factors, as well as this new FBI report that claims that the gun could not have, quote, accidentally misfired, if you will, that you had to pull the trigger for basically the trigger to hit the bullet and the bullet to fire. You're hearing also William Lange Nessie at Fox News talking about the intricacies of the gun and what would be required to pull the trigger.

You're also hearing Alec Baldwin saying, I didn't pull the trigger. This is what he says happens. Take a listen to our friends at GMA. In December, Alec Baldwin describing the moment of that fatal accident. She's guiding me through how she wants me to hold the gun for this angle. And I draw the gun out and I find a mark. So I take the gun and I start to cock the gun. I'm not going to pull the trigger. I said, do you see that? She goes, well, just cheat it down and tilt it down a little bit like that. And I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off.

I let go of the hammer of the gun and the gun goes off. Alec Baldwin talks and acts for a living, maybe talking too much. You know, to Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, you heard earlier Steve Wolf, the weapon safety for film expert at TeamWildfire.com. He said that there was no gun malfunction, that the trigger had to have been pulled, which is an intentional act, unless you're acting really recklessly or negligently. I mean, it would be a cold day in H-E-double-L before I pointed a weapon at anyone, even if I thought all the chambers were empty.

Oh, I agree with you, Nancy. And you're taught that. If anyone's ever gone to a gun Oh, I agree with you, Nancy. And you're taught that. If anyone's ever gone to a gun range, oh my gosh, I imagine Alec Baldwin has been taught how to deal with a gun. And it's very reckless behavior that he pulled the trigger and shot this girl. Or what Steve Wolf said, simultaneously had the hammer down and pulled the trigger at the same time. Yeah. One of those two. Go ahead.

I'm sorry. What I was going to say is, Nancy, do you know what the number one, the most common motive for telling a lie is? No. To avoid punishment. I think we all ought to think about that and just let it sink in. The number one motive for telling a lie is to avoid punishment. How do you know that?

I read about it. It's punishment. Fear of lie is to avoid punishment. How do you know that? I read about it. It's punishment, fear of punishment. To avoid punishment. Interesting, Dr. Angie. Very interesting. In your experience, you know, Dr. Angela Arnold, let me give you a good example. People, court watchers, legal eagles, believe that Orenthal James Simpson, O.J. Simpson, told the same lie so many times that he actually started believing it.

I've never accepted that theory. I think you know inside what really happened. Is there a chance that as he replays this in his mind, Baldwin actually thinks he didn't pull the trigger? I think there's a slight chance of that. None of us are ever going to know because he's not going to come forward with that information, just like OJ Simpson would never come forward with that information. I'll tell you another instance when this happens, Nancy, when people have affairs and they never tell the truth. There are lots of instances when people lie and lie and lie. They know what the truth is underneath all of this.

And it looks like they believe, it certainly looks like they believe that lie. But I agree with you, Nancy. I don't think that there's any way, unless they're psychotic, that they start to actually believe that what they're saying is truth. I think sometimes that they think in their minds they've covered all their bases, and they get actually indignant that you are not going along with their big fat lie. Or in his mind, he may think, well, I didn't mean to pull the trigger. I never intended to pull the trigger. So surely I didn't pull the trigger. Yeah.

I mean, but the FBI is something, is saying something entirely different. Well, this is how it all started. Take a listen to the 911 call from our friends at GMA. Two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun we need helping media the santa fe county district attorney saying nothing is off the table there's

no evidence that this was intentional this was clearly an accident but perhaps a criminal accident just because something is an accident doesn't mean that a criminal act didn't occur. To Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former Fed with the FBI, Dale, that's why we have statutes such as vehicular homicide, where you have a crash, you didn't mean to have a crash, but you killed somebody. That's vehicular homicide.

I think of this as... And there's also, however, that's negligent homicide, which is more of a voluntary manslaughter, but there's also abandoned and malignant heart, which means, for instance, this is the example I would give a jury, Dale. I would say. And it could be used against him. Yes.

For instance, you drive your car at 90 mph into a street fair. You don't even know anybody you mow down, but your heart is abandoned toward the suffering or the risk of injury to other people. And pointing a gun at someone, a real gun with real bullets in it, is an abandoned malignant heart. That is a murder charge right there. Well, I don't intend to defend Alex Baldwin, but your expert wolf has got it. But let me explain it just a little bit more. When you pick up a handgun and you pull the hammer back, your hand naturally presses the trigger. That called negligence and when that hand presses

the trigger just unintentionally the hammer comes back and it goes forward and fires and that's why so many children are killed with these handguns that have a semi-automatic handguns that have a very light three pound trigger pull they can grab that gun and their hands naturally fit around it and fire. But these guns have to be cocked so they're safer. And if you know anything about guns, I carried a gun since 1972 every day.

And they're dangerous. They will hurt the people you care about if you're not really gun conscious. You know, to Steve Wolf joining me from TeamWildfire.com, he's a weapons safety for film expert. Steve, for those that don't know what a trigger pull is, what is it simply? Well, first of all, that's the widely used and incorrect term for activating the trigger. Tr actually pressed not pulled you press the trigger

but but what it means is to apply pressure to the trigger trigger to the degree that the trigger moves and activates the linkages inside the gun that release the sear and allow the hammer to fall when we say three pounds trigger, what does that mean versus? Just like when you press on a doorbell and then the doorbell rings. You know, if you leaned against the doorbell and it rings, do you then say, oh, I didn't press the doorbell? No, you still caused it to be pressed whether you intended to or not. And the doorbell rang.

That's a really good comparison. As far as the weight of a trigger pull, if you say, I just got a 10-pound trigger pull, that means it takes 10 pounds of effort. It's the only way I can explain it versus 3 pounds or 1 pound trigger pull. That's exactly correct. Okay. And I know you're saying that's not the correct verbiage, but I think it's a familiar vernacular to say the weight of the trigger pull.

Because you've got a 10-pound trigger pull because you got a 10 pound trigger pull it's a lot harder to pull that trigger which would indicate more a forethought because you have to really pull guys you're hearing alec baldwin say i didn't pull the trigger well that is not what the fbi is saying take a listen our friends at gma. An FBI lab report concluding that of the four people they tested, the only prints that were found on the ammunition box were from two of Rust Armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed's fingers. Back in April, authorities released this video of Baldwin being questioned and the moment he is told that Hutchins was dead. I do have some very unfortunate news to tell you. She didn't make it.

The bottom line right now is the medical examiner is calling Hutchins' death an accident. The question now is will the FBI reports lead to maybe criminal charges against Baldwin? It could be something like negligence or even involuntary manslaughter. That will now be up to the Santa Fe District Attorney. In addition to our friends at GMA, you just heard William Wageness at Fox News speaking. So I'm trying to figure out, Dave Mack joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave, the FBI has concluded that with the hammer at a full cock position, the revolver could not fire without a pull of the trigger. I can't put it any more simply than that. Now Baldwin's team is saying

that is a misstatement. But what will it take for the DA to get off the dime and make some kind of a resolution in this case, either drop it or move forward. Right now, the DA is waiting on a couple more reports. Really? What? You got a crime lab report for Quantico? What's he waiting on? My understanding is the DA is waiting for the Sheriff's Department to come back with their full report.

They've had three reports so far, and I think they're waiting for one more report that will kind of put a bow on it. They've already determined that the shooting was accidental, but determining what, if any, crime occurred is what they're trying to determine. And that should be done fairly quickly, Nancy. Like what they're going to present to the grand jury, if anything you've heard alec baldwin speaking out and speaking out and speaking out and remember this is not under police questioning investigatory questioning at all he's speaking of his own volition now here he is at the chris cuomo project what is he saying every single person on the set of the film knows what happened and the people that

are talking loudest about what happened or speculating about what happened were not on the set of the film. The LA Times, the Hollywood Reporter, they talk on and on and on about what if this and what if that and have dined out on this. And the thing that they have in common is nobody was there. And everybody who was there, they know exactly what happened. They know exactly who's to blame, blah, blah, blah. Well, speaking of talk on and on and on. Whew, okay. That's Alec Baldwin speaking out again. But take a listen now. He's saying no one on the set is speaking out. And it's all the Hollywood Reporter and the LA Times and the media who were not obviously on the set.

Take a listen to Tina Patel at KCAL. The armorer on the set of the ill-fated Rust movie is speaking out after a court filing by actor Alec Baldwin. In his claim, Baldwin says Hutchins told him to, quote, cock the gun. Rust armorer Hannah Gutierrez responded saying she was never called to inspect quote, cock the gun. Rest Armorer Hannah Gutierrez responded, saying she was never called to inspect a gun, as was protocol. She issued a statement saying, quote, Mr. Baldwin knew that he could never point a firearm at crew members under any circumstances and had a duty of safety to his fellow crew members, yet he did point the gun at Helena before the fatal incident against all rules and common sense. To Steve Wolfe joining us, he is the weapons safety for film expert.

Steve, it sounds like a lot of finger point to me. Baldwin saying I didn't pull the trigger. The armorer who is in charge of weapons on a set is saying he knew better. I find it really hard to believe that Helena Hutchins told him to cut the gun and of course she can't be cross-examined she's dead what do you make of this i i think she may have if she believed that it was a cold gun and she was trying to line up her shot she was it's credible that she was coaching him in what position the gun should be held in order for the shot to be, you know, what she visualized.

But what does that have to do with anything, Steve? I don't get it. Why does the position, how you're pointing the gun have to do with cocking the gun? Yeah, as you said, we can't know what he was told to do. But if someone tells you to do something that's unsafe, you use your judgment and you don't do it. Or you tell Helena, look, if you want the gun pointed at the camera, okay, step away from the camera and then I'll

point it and you can watch on the monitor and see if that's the shot that you want. But you don't point the gun when there's a person in front of you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, Dr. Angie Arnold, we need a psychiatrist. There's no way that Alec Baldwin does not know about the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Why is he continually going on air and speaking? Well, Nancy, I feel like he, I don't know Alec Baldwin, but seems like this is indicative of someone who is very entitled and may think that he's a little bit better than everyone and knows and he's above the law. And somehow it's not thinking in his brain that he did something wrong and he should keep his mouth shut. And in my world, that means that you're very entitled. Maybe he's a bit of a

narcissist. And I know I use that word a lot, but it's a good word that describes behavior like this. He is an incredible actor. There's no doubt about that. Yes, he is. We have a dead body, not just a dead body, a dead mother, a child growing up without the mom for the rest of his life. A life sentence. So here is Baldwin.

You just heard him talking about the media going on and on. His words, not mine. And here he is going on and on on the Chris Cuomo project. You're familiar with what fanning a gun is. Have you heard of that phrase, fanning a gun? Yes, but explain it. So if you pull the hammer back and you don't lock the hammer, if you pull the hammer back pretty far, in old Western movies, you'd see someone fan the hammer of the gun. The hammer didn't lock. You pulled it back to an extent where it would fire the bullet without you pulling the trigger, without you locking the

hammer. The man who's the principal safety officer on the set of the film declared that the gun was safe when he handed it to me. The person who was the principal safety officer of the film declared in front of the entire assemblage, this is a cold gun. Okay, Steve Wolf, what did he just say? Why is he saying that? Does that help him or hurt him? It doesn't help him at all because no one can tell you that the gun in your hand is safe that matters other than you you're the one holding the gun it's your responsibility to make sure the gun is clear not to listen to what somebody else says who may or may not have checked the gun or may or may not know what they're doing he had an armorer available to him they sent her off to go do something else she's the one who could have checked the gun and actually showed him what was inside

so that he would know the condition of the firearm in his hand. But when you discharge a firearm, you are responsible for the path of that bullet and all of the damage it does, no one else. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and also death investigator, You have testified in front of many, many jury trials. I tell you, whenever I would handle a gun in front of a jury, I would be so careful with it because, you know, even though I checked the chamber before the jury would even come back in, I was always worried that something would go wrong. If that gun went off in

the middle of a trial, number one, it could hurt somebody. Number two, I'd have a mistrial. I'd start all over again. Plus, I didn't want to alienate jurors. So I would always, when they would come in, go pick up the gun in front of them, pull out the chamber, look in it, put the chamber back, and then hold it facing down. So the jury would not be alarmed in any way. I just find it really hard to believe that you would pull back the hammer and pull the trigger, ever, unless you meant to shoot somebody. Bigger question.

They're playing pretend, Nancy. Who is they? Be specific, please. This is a movie shoot. This is not real life. What in the hell are you doing with live ammunition? Oh, I'm glad you said that. That leads me to our cut 27. This is Alec Baldwin again talking on the Chris Cuomo project. Listen. Now, why did he say that? If he didn't know, if he hadn't checked. The point is all of us were told that

everything was cool and you can relax and we're working with a gun that's safe to rehearse with but he explained it to me effectively that exactly what can happen if you pull a hammer back and let it go if there's a live round see there's only one question to ask here who put a live round in the gun that's it there is no other question to ask. Okay. Yes, there is. And that is who pulled the trigger. Well, of course, the spokespeople for Baldwin is telling all the media how they're misinterpreting this brand new FBI ballistics report. Good luck telling the FBI they're wrong. Okay, take a listen to our Cut 34, our friends at Fox News. The spokesman for Baldwin has already said that the media is misinterpreting the report,

that we're getting it wrong. But the second part is they do point out that this gun malfunctioned during testing at the FBI. In fact, it was only actually successfully fired once, and when it did, part of the trigger sear basically sheared off, and the firing pin hit the bullet and it fired. But they're gonna be able to look at that and go, listen, this was an unreliable weapon at the first place,

and what my client said or claimed could actually be true that's what they'll maintain steve wolf please interpret that well what the fbi did ended up being destructive testing but the tests that they did show that the gun was in fact working properly it did not malfunction it did not fire other than when the trigger was pressed as would be expected uh the the fbi's testing was a little heavy-handed on this old gun and they ended up breaking it before they could further fire it why prior to having broken it they were able to verify that the gun had been in proper working condition why how do you break a gun by firing it? Well, they were hitting the gun with a hammer to try to get the hammer to go forward and were unable to.

Okay, well, you know what's going to happen with that, Steve Wolf? If there ever is a trial, the defense is going to argue, well, the FBI destroyed the gun on purpose, so we couldn't test it. I can tell you that's going to happen. Well, it already was tested and they had already they had already confirmed that the the safety stops worked properly on the hammer guys take a listen our friends at inside edition baldwin's lawyer says the fbi report is being misconstrued meanwhile the criminal investigation by the albuquerque da continues i'm waiting and waiting and waiting and then the announcement's

going to come about who is or isn't going to be charged. The process is slow. I am deeply, deeply, deeply resentful and bitter about how slow the process has been. The interview ends on a note of dark humor. I told people I'm going to be a greeter in Vegas any day now. I'm going to be, remember me, I was in Beetlejuice. How are you, everybody? Please. Table nine, Frank. Table nine. As long as you do it without a gun in your hand, we wait as justice unfolds. What will the district attorney do now?

If anything, or is he simply starstruck? Nancy Grace Crumstory signing off. Goodbye, friend.