Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FBI PROBES SPACE SCIENTISTS DEAD, MISSING, TOLL RISES TO 16

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

The number of government scientists either missing or mysteriously dead is now 16.  The FBI and White House are reviewing the series of deaths and disappearances looking for connection between the individuals with ties to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Los Alamos National Laboratory, and defense-related fields. We have been able establish the fact that  several victims vanished while hiking or walking, often leaving behind essential items like phone or ID. Are these individual disappearances and deaths a strange coincidence or a wilds conspiracy theory?  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Luis Elizondo - former U.S. Army Counterintelligence Special Agent, former employee of the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, former Director Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP) and UFO whistleblower  Franc Milburn  - Former British Intelligence Officer, friend of Amy Eskridge Brian Fitzgibbons  - Director of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security,  website: www.uspasecurity.com, Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Lauren Conlin- Reporter, Los Angeles Magazine - Podcaster/Reporter/ Co-Host of "PopCrimeTV" on YouTube, Website: www.popcrime.tv and primetimecrimeshow.com,             X- @Conlin_Lauren, Instagram: @LaurenEmilyConlin, YouTube: @PopCrimeTV  Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The FBI probing space scientists either dead or missing, and at this hour, the toll has risen to 16. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. A NASA nuclear engineer burned beyond recognition. He left his. wallet behind, he left his phone behind, and then he drove his Tesla to the Huntsville Airport,

and then randomly for no reason that we can figure out, crashed his Tesla directly into a guardrail, and the body inside of it was unrecognizable. Tonight, the toll rising to 16, 16 space scientists either dead or missing? The 17th American scientist. Her name is Ingrid Colleen Lane, and she went missing. on a solo hike in New Mexico. She vanished on State Route 144. Her black 2019 Subaru found 9,100 feet in elevation and out of cell rain. The sheriff's department said that a large boulder rock crashed through the rear hatch window. The front bumper of the car showed significant collision

damage that has never been accounted for in any official report. Three laptops were inside, an unactivated burner phone, and her keys were still in the ignition. Oh, okay, wait a minute. Now I'm hearing that a female space scientist died after a boulder fell on her car. What's the odds of that happening? That's from a friend I found on Insta, Mary C2HK. But what I don't get straight out to Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative reporter with the Los Angeles LA Magazine, star of Pop Crime TV co-host.

You can find her at Pop Crime TV. Lauren, why did I have to find that buried amongst all sorts of outlandish theories regarding these missing scientists and dead scientists? Is any of that true? Who is Ingrid Lane? And is it true?

She has disappeared? But her car is found with a boulder attack? Yes. So as far as we know, Nancy, she is still alive. She is just missing. Ingrid Lane, she was a beautiful musician. She played the violin, but she was also a neuroscientist and a bioengineer affiliated with the Mind Research Network at the University of New Mexico. Now, this place, the Mind Research Network, it had ties to Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories. So that is where this very, very striking connection comes in.

The way that Ingrid disappeared is so chilling, Nancy. She was actually at a retreat that she was supposed to be on a week long retreat at a place called the Bodie Manda Zen Center. And according to reports and friends and family, she was very familiar with this place. She had been going there, I guess, on and off for about 10 years. It was about an hour from where she lived in the Albuquerque area. So she's there for one day. The very next day, she tells people that she's going for a drive. She's got to go back to Albuquerque.

She's got to go back to Los Alamos. She wants to hike over there and she'll be back later. Now this struck a few people as odd because it's like you're going on a Zen retreat, but now you want to drive a bunch of hours, even though you're supposed to be meditating. Now here's where it gets a little weird. So she's driving along State Route 144 near the San Antonio Mountain and the Diaz Caledra National Preserve. She is going up and up and up to the top of this mountain.

Now, two people find her because she is having car trouble. And they ask her, you know, do you need some help? And she says, you know, I'm fine. I will fix my car. They said she seemed very determined to get to the top of this mountain. So according to these two people, they walk along and she continues. Now, later, as you mentioned, her car was found after there was an. Apple Air tag that police tracked when she was reported missing. Now, there was a large boulder

that had shattered near the rear hatch window of her Subaru and the front showed reportedly major front end collision damage. We don't really have an explanation about that, but three laptops found inside that car, Nancy, an unactivated burner phone and her keys were still in the ignition. Let me understand. How can a boulder hit the front end? How can a boulder hit the front and the backend. Well, we don't know that it was a boulder, right? Like, nobody was there. There's no cameras.

So this is what is being reported. I'm assuming based on what law enforcement observed. One thing I want to point out that I thought with a little weird is that she went missing in 2023. She wasn't in the Namest database until late 2024. I mean, maybe that's a question that, you know, I can't answer. Maybe you can answer or Brian. And why does that happen?

Why did it take so long? You're stating she was not in what database, Lauren Conlon? The NamUs database, the government missing persons database. Guys, Lauren is saying NAMUS, NamUs is the way it's pronounced. And it is a missing person database. And she was only placed in there. How long after she went missing? About, I want to say more, more than a year.

Yeah. And again, Lauren Conlin, what was her field of study? She was a bioengineer and a neuroscientist. She was brilliant, Nancy. I mean, her name, I was just looking this up, her name is connected to multiple reports pertaining to the U.S. Department of Energy. And this is from the Sandia National Laboratory Center for Computing Research. So, you know, you can find a lot about.

where she worked and what she did online. And I went through this deep dive of Ingrid. I just got so involved. And I found an article that she wrote back in 2012, kind of like an op-ed, where she really was already questioning authority at that point. And she was reportedly fighting for LGBTQ rights at her workplace, which wasn't necessarily going over too well.

And this is according to friends. So she was struggling. a bit at the time of her disappearance. Straight out to special guests joining us, Frank Milburn. We are talking about yet another scientist missing or dead. In this case, Ingrid Lane. Do you know what I, let me introduce Frank Milburn, everyone. Frank, as you may know by now,

former British intelligence officer, very dear friend of Amy Eskridge, another brilliant scientist. who made it a point to tell Frank repeatedly, if I'm found dead, I did not commit suicide, no matter what anybody tells you. Yet, it's reported that she died of self-inflicted gunshot wound. And I'd like to point out that no official autopsy has ever been released, ever, and we've compiled a list of other scientists found dead with amazingly no COD. in fact, one of them is reported dead because he was overweight and must have had a heart attack.

That's not cutting it. But Frank Milburn, what I'm hearing about Ingrid Lane is an eerie echo of what is being said about the brilliant scientist, Ms. Eskridge, her father of brilliant scientist, both of them working in anti-gravity jet propulsion. That said, they're being smeared. you know all of the comments that have been made about Amy well as to Ingrid it's it's being she's being described as a Buddhist musician struggling with her health she's so much more than that she's a brilliant scientist and I I see what's happening with these victims they are being discredited. And it's very hard for me to understand how Ingrid Lane can just disappear from a boulder attack on her car. It's just not computing ideal and hard facts. Every case I've

ever prosecuted or investigated either rises or falls on the facts, not innuendo and speculation about the victim's private life. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a fundamental problem with these the victims, and I will call them victims, because they are being discredited in this way. And for example, I've continued my investigations and, you know, Amy made allegations of, you know, corporate espionage against two different organizations and individuals linked to those. And she was both threatened over that from those sources before her death, harassed, discredited, and also since her death, both she and I, there have been efforts made against from those same sources, to discredit her and to discredit myself for, you know,

for trying to push this investigation. So unfortunately that's a problem where you have very, very brilliant people who have these kinds of, you know, very strange and suspicious circumstances around them and you will have people trying to discredit them. And that is to their discredit themselves, not the good person. Experience Harry Styles live in London, England at Wembley Stadium. This is Harry Styles.

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This description of her as a Buddhist musician struggling. No, she was also a bioengineer, a neuroscientist, with the mine research lab in University of New Mexico, also worked at or with Sandia and other labs. Los Alamos Labs in particular, her husband, an astrophysicist with the Department of Defense. He builds directed energy weapons software for the Air Force at Kirkland AFB. He has published multiple research papers about Earth-like planets near other stars.

but yet she is being painted as a crackpot. Lauren Conlin, I've been researching Ingrid, as have you, and all of the personal, every description is discrediting her brilliant mind and her advances in science. She's being written off as a crackpot, much like Amy Eskridge. But Amy Eskridge, isn't this true, Frank Milberg, had some of the highest government security clearance that can be had. She was working with Homeland Security and more.

She was also, I mean, I can't comment on her clearances because I didn't discuss those with her, whether she had them, whether she didn't, but she was interested in working on some very, very interesting cases and technologies. She was working with Homeland Security years. And just the fact that she had a kind of string of people who worked on high-level government UFO programs who were visiting her home, scientists and others. So she was very much in that field. You know, Brian Fitzgibbon is joining us. And everyone on the panel that hasn't been introduced yet tonight, please jump in when you have a thought. Brian Fitzgibbon is with us, the Director of

U.S.PA nationwide security. He leads a team of investigators around the world finding missing people. He is a former Marine and an Iraqi War vet. Brian, here's another tidbit of fact that just doesn't fall into place with me. Regarding Ingrid Lane, she went to a Zen Center for a few days. Zen Center. Get it, Zen, chill. Her mind brilliant, and this was a break for her, but yet such. Suddenly, she announced she had to leave.

Buy car in her black Subaru. Then it's found on about 11 miles north, I believe, New Mexico, 126. Now, here's the thing. She's gone, but her car barely survived. A boulder attack? How can she vanish near the mountains? How can that happen? Wouldn't cadaver dogs, drones, somewhere?

someone something have found her? There's her car. Where is she? She had a burner phone. Why? Why does she suddenly leave her Zen retreat by car? Why? Her husband doesn't know why. Help me out. Because this isn't fitting together. And now she's being described this astrophysicist as a crackpot. What triggered that need to leave this retreat center so urgently? And when you you add in the totality of the facts surrounding this case, you brought up maybe the most prescient point, Nancy. You and I together have covered so many cases of missing hikers. And a search and rescue effort is very efficient at finding somebody, especially when

there are marked trails, known routes, a retreat center nearby. If there was some kind of medical emergency that Ingrid suffered, search and rest of effort would find her relatively quickly. So to add in this burner phone, what appears to be potentially a staging of a secondary crime scene at the vehicle, you know, there are a number of red flags here. I want to go back to Lauren Conlon. Lauren Collin, everyone, investigative reporter, you've seen her joining us many, many times on crime stories.

She is a contributor at LA Magazine and has just written an incredible article. about the missing NASA scientist Monica Reza. And the reason I want to bring that up is not just because of your article, which is amazing, Lauren Conlin. But Monica's disappearance in my mind is eerily similar to some of the other disappearances. Tell me what you learned about Monica.

Yes. Well, I was just going to say this, Nancy. Between Monica and Ingrid, I'm seeing some similarities that are very chilling. There was a red beanie of monicas that was found. And after this red beanie was found, and again, you know, just for those that don't know, she went missing in June of 2025 when she was hiking in the Mount Waterman area of the Los Angeles Mountains in California. It's a hundred thousand or hundreds of thousands of acres, its entire area.

But her area, we do know her last known coordinates, which is where law enforcement and family and friends have been searching for the last year. So she left, oh, that that red beanie that you saw on that photo. That was found. Right there. Yep. Monica scent stopped after that beanie was found. That is very concerning. If she were to keep going on, let's say she got lost, right?

Why would her scent stop there? Same with Ingrid. Reportedly, there was forensic evidence indicating that Ingrid had been outside or near her vehicle, but there was no trace showing where she went after. search dogs reportedly found no scent trail leading away from the scene. That to me makes no sense. And I have to wonder without being a conspiracy theorist, were these staged somehow?

And with Monica, I have spoken to close family members who are desperate to find their, you know, their sister, their mother, their cousin. Monica is a widow. They wanted everyone to know that she was not working for any type of foreign government, any, foreign intelligence. She was studying yoga with a specialty in Vedic sciences. And she had done this for about 30 years. And she was working for NASA JPL at the time. One last thing I want to say about

Monica, Nancy, is the fact that she had an iPhone 8, which meant that her cell phone was not going to ping anywhere unless she was at a proper place in the mountain for it to work. If she would have had an iPhone 12, it could have pinged. But this is one of the most baffling things ever again because she was with two people, two companions, and they both seem to have a very specific story. And as far as I know, Nancy, no one else can put Monica on the mountain that day except for these two people. I have not spoken to them personally. I have reached out to one of them, but I have a lot of questions. Lauren Conlin, isn't it true that Monica Jacinta Reza got her funding from AFRL Air Force Research Lab, and she worked closely with and her funding was approved by William Neal McCasland,

who walked away from his home with none of his ID, without his phone, without anything on him to identify who he was except an Air Force source. sweatshirt, which was found discarded about two miles away. McHasland oversaw Monica Heson Jose Torres' projects and okayed the funding for her. Isn't that true? They did overlap, and I, you know, I've reached out to these places like Wright Patterson, the Air Force Research Lab, and I think I mentioned this to you. It's very difficult to get confirmation of what people did exactly and the years that they worked there, you know, so I'm going to. I'm going to off of LinkedIn for these two in general. But yes, Monica Reza, you know, she co-patented these high-strength

metal alloys, burn-resistant alloys, and General McCaslin was at the very top. So this to me, like they are the center of all of this. I really believe they are. And one other thing that's so concerning about Monica Reza, when I spoke to her family last week, no one from the FBI or the White House had reached out to her. And I know that doesn't mean they're not looking into this. I know that maybe family doesn't know exactly what she was working on. I just thought that was very strange in terms of profiling. She was working on a particular alloy to be used on rockets and other aircraft that was resistant to high, high degrees of heat. And the name is Mondaloy. She was perfecting the use of Mondi. She was perfecting the use of

Mondaloy on rocket ships and other craft. So as part of her research, suddenly she goes missing. And I want to address what you just said, Lauren Conlin, with Brian Fitzgibbon's. Here's an example everybody can understand. And I was shocked when I first heard it. This was during the Scott Peterson murder investigation where Lacey and Connor were murdered by Scott Peterson. Do you know a scent dog tracked?

Lacey from Modesto all the way to the San Francisco Bay. The dog tracked her that far, and she was in a vehicle, probably in the back of a boat with a tarp over it. Tracked her all the way, in a vehicle. So why is it that Ingrid Lane and Monica Jacinto Reza just disappear and leave behind no identifiable scent for either? a scent dog or a cadaver dog. Yeah, that's perplexing.

I mean, as you know, and you pointed out with the Peterson case, and there are so many other examples, U.S. Marshals just tracked down a fugitive in Naples just today using scent dogs. This is through thick brush wetlands. It's amazing what these dogs can do. Both the Beanie, it's the only thing, Fowling. The big one comes down to the canines. they took canine teams out there, scent trackers.

They tracked the scent to the beanie, and there was no scent trail leading away from the beanie, right? If she continued in that direction, the dogs were to continue. The beanie is at the location where the only witness saw her disappear. The only witness produced the two photos. And the beanie is at that location as well. At the investigative angle, at the investigative side, you have to look into this as possible foul play

and possible staging of an event. You are hearing well-known geo-profiler Doug McGregor answering questions for Lauren Conland at LA Magazine describing what is a forensic quandary, a conundrum, a Rubik's Cube, so to speak. Because in our world of hard evidence, a scent doesn't just disappear

unless that person, maybe, was put in a vehicle and the dog loses the scent. But that doesn't make sense as far as Monica Jacinto Reyesas disappearance. She was on the side of a mountain. She wasn't picked up in a vehicle. Ingrid Lane was in the middle of rugged terrain. Her car sitting right there disabled by a boulder attack? No. And a mystery burner phone left in her vehicle? No. Guys, I told you that the toll is now up to 14. And you have been hearing Lauren Collin, who has been intensely researching the disappearance of Monica Reza as well as Ingrid Lane. But there is another name that has emerged. Kevin Childress. Childress was found dead unexpectedly, and I'm going to go to Dave Mac shortly about how many of

these scientists are dead, but there's no medical examiners report, and there's no official cause of death. How can that be? Even when my step-grandfather passed away of a heart attack in the home with my grandma there, they did an autopsy to determine what really happened. He was 88 years old. They did an autopsy, and it was a heart attack. Why no autopsies and no official CODs? That's a whole other can of worms, but I want to get back to Kevin Childress. Joining me now is Lou Elizondo, former U.S. Army Counterintelligence Special Agent,

former Employee Office Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, former director advanced airspace threat identification program and UFO whistleblower. Wow. Mr. Elizondo, I want to thank you for being with us tonight. You have refused in the past to give me the name, Kevin Childress, but I found it elsewhere. Kevin Childress, and correct me if I am wrong, was set to have a meeting describing very, very sensitive scientific information. He was going to Congress and talking about what was in the UAP files, and then suddenly he's found dead on a sofa. And there was never an autopsy. what can you tell me about Kevin Childress other than he was brilliant. That much I already know.

Sure. Well, Nancy, thank you very much for having me. It's certainly an honor and privilege. You're absolutely correct. Kevin Childress was a senior special agent with the Department of Energy. And as you continue to look at some of these other cases, there are definitely ties. When you're talking about a national laboratory, there are always tied with the Department of Energy. And so in this particular case, special agent Kevin Childress was a special agent in charge.

He was there at headquarters with the Department of Energy. And he had reached out to me. This is right after I left the Pentagon. And he was very concerned. He said, look, the Department of Energy has a significant role in the UAP business. And I'm pretty upset by what I have access to. And now that I've raised it through my chain of command, I feel that the Department of Energy is trying to keep me quiet.

So I'm worried about that. But there is a lot of information. This is what he's saying that I have access to. And I would love a chance to talk to somebody in Congress about it. So I was in the process of arranging a meeting between Special Agent Kevin Childress and some members of Congress back in the 2020, 2020, 2021 timeframe. And to spare the family, they want to be cognizant of their privacy, let's just say his spouse is extremely well trained in the medical field. And I think it was a surprise to everybody. He had left, she had left for work that morning. He seemed fine. She came home that

evening and he was dead on the sofa. And clearly I had some surprise as well when I heard this news. But if you look at his obituary, which I find very interesting, specifically one of the last paragraphs, it talks about his interest in the UAP topic. And that's actually what was the basis for our conversation we were going to have in Congress. I was going to bring him there as a whistleblower and allow him to speak his piece. Can we identify that, please, unidentified aerial phenomena. That's what we're talking about UAP. That's correct. It sounds very conspiratorial, but the reality is that our government has spent a lot of time, a lot of resources, looking into the topic of UAP or what was known in the vernacular as UFOs in the past.

And of course, people like to snicker and giggle about it, but the reality is we took it very seriously. We spent a lot of money, taxpayer money, looking into this because we had in some cases almost mid-air collisions between a UAP or a UFO, if you want to call it that, and military aircraft. We also saw these things over-controlled U.S. airspace, over sensitive of military installations over our nuclear facilities. And this is why Department of Energy is so important here because the nuclear tie is it may be actually something that we need to look at. All these scientists that have disappeared.

The nuclear tie. Hold on. You know what? Pardon the pun, but your light speed ahead of us regular people. What do you mean the nuclear tie? So one of the things that we noticed while in the Pentagon running the UFO program was that these UAP or these UFOs have an interest in our nuclear equities, whether it's nuclear propulsion, nuclear power, nuclear weapons systems. And what a lot of people don't know is that the Department

of Energy plays a significant role. When anything that is considered radioactive or has a certain yield, Department of Energy has primacy. And so in this particular case, you have a lot of scientists writ large, not just Kevin Childers, who was the special agent, that were looking, that were working at these national laboratories under the Department of Energy cognizance and a lot of the work that they were doing could be related to some sort of Department of Energy project. Now, I wanna be very careful here

because certainly I don't wanna talk about anything that's classified, but as one of your participants here mentioned, these individuals had security clearances, in some cases, top secret SCI security clearances, as high as it gets. And that's the reason why you have FBI now involvement in investigating these, what we call called national level cases. But there are other individuals. And I'm sure our friend here,

Frank Milburn, can tell you, Amy Eskridge was no different. I had the opportunity to speak with her in person in 2018 timeframe in the Huntsville, Alabama area, Redstone Missile Arsenal, where she had indicated to me that she was working on an anti-gravidic technology, her and her father and that that research was being suppressed. And I know this sounds very conspiratorial, but I was there for the meeting. It was actually over dinner. And all I'm telling you is what she told me. And she said that they are being harassed and that she's very, very afraid, that there are certain elements that are trying to, quote, unquote, shut them down. And yeah, she told me that verbatim. And then, of course, unfortunately, she bombed up dying, passing away. As General

McAaslin the same thing. A lot of people don't realize. Neil McCaslin, who we talked about AFRL, Air Force Research Laboratory and some of these other national laboratories, he was a linchpin to a lot of the military's black projects. Basically, they're working on technologies that in theory we won't see for another 50 years. And McCaslin, what a lot of people don't know is that he was also an advisor to one of my colleagues, Tom DeLong. Tom DeLong is the former frontman and current frontman, I think again, for the Blink 182 rock band. And as crazy as this sounds, Tom had an interest in the UAP topic, UFO topic. And General McCaslin, Neil McCaslin, I know as a fact, because I worked with Tom, was one of his advisors on the UFO topic. And so I want

to be very careful here not to sound conspiratorial or draw any lines that aren't there. But a lot of these individuals that are on this list actually had some sort of involvement in either advanced propulsion, advanced types of materials and alloys, or specifically UAP research. Question to you, what was the cause of Kevin Childress death? He supposedly died from COVID complications, but what I spoke to him earlier, he seemed fine, and according to other witnesses, who I won't name here, who saw him that very morning said he seemed fine. Did his wife know he had COVID? You know, I'd let her answer that instead of me.

Again, I'm very cautious not to overstep my bound. I want to be very careful of people's privacy. But I would suspect that you were... Do you know if an autopsy was ever performed? I don't know that. I don't know that, but I know when he talked to me, he had told me specifically like Amy Eskridge that he was very afraid that there was, there were reprisals against him at the Department of Energy that they tried to squeeze him out.

They tried to launch fake investigations and tried to discredit him. And something that I'm personally keenly aware of because when I left the Pentagon as well and decided to go public, the same thing happened to me and some of my colleagues who decided to come out and talk about this topic to the American people. So I don't doubt the fact that he was in some way ship reform being intimidated and they were trying to suppress his communications. When I say they, I don't know who they are. I don't know if it was government sponsored or if it was someone else. But I can tell you, in my conversations with him and, of course, Amy Eskridge and then later on with Neil McCaslin,

all of these individuals had a very keen interest in the UFO topic. and that for me is obviously very concerning. Died of COVID, yet no one seems to be able to confirm he had COVID, and no COD cause of death, death is listed in the obituary. Kevin Childress, who was concerned that he was being treated as a whistleblower and was set to talk to a member of Congress. then dies on the sofa. No COD. I'm also very curious about Matthew Sullivan, aka Quake. Is it true, or do you know, whether an autopsy was ever performed on Sullivan and what was said

to be his cause of death? Yeah, so rather than share what I don't know, let me share with you what I do know. He was an Air Force intelligence officer. He was a colleague of one of my colleagues at the time, Dave Grush. Dave Grush and I had worked at U.S. Space Force together. And Sullivan wanted to come forward and have a conversation with certain members of Congress about the Air Force's involvement in the UFO program. And he was slated within, I think, 24 hours. He had gone to Washington, D.C. and was in a hotel, from my understanding, and was going to have a conversation with some members of Congress in a SCIF. A SCIF is a sensitive compartmented information facility. So it's kind of like a think of a secret vault where you can have conversations at the classified level. And the day before

he was supposed to have a conversation or two days before, he wound up being found dead. I knew, what I do know is that there was a while before the medical examiner even released a report. It kept getting delayed and delayed and delayed. I don't know the reason why it was delayed, but I do know that members of Congress were very concerned the fact that this individual was supposed to testify and wound up dead. And by the way, this wasn't the only one. There was another individual whose name, I won't mention because it hasn't been made public yet, but he was an individual, an engineer who was allegedly tied to the exploitation of recovered UFO material. He was talking to one of my colleagues and he was going to go talk to Congress.

about his knowledge, about legacy U.S. government legacy UFO efforts. And within, I think, a week or so before he was supposed to go to Washington, D.C., he wound up dying. And the cause of death, I don't know, but one of my colleagues was following it very closely and was concerned enough to tell me, hey, look, people are starting to disappear. You may want to be very careful. So there does seem to be a very interesting, you can call it a coincidence, But in my line of work as a former intelligence officer, you know, when things happen once, it's an anomaly, when things happen twice, you could chalk it up as a coincidence.

But when it happens three times, now you have a trend. Now you have a connection there. And there does seem to be some very interesting connection here. Now, I also have to preface, though, you know, as a former intelligence officer myself, it is not as uncommon as you might think that foreign countries will sometimes take very extreme measures to keep information quiet. We're now beginning to see that there are several scientists now in China that are missing, and there may be reasons for that, and same with Russia.

So we need to do a lot of work on this. But, you know, if I may, Nancy, digress for just one moment, because you had a very interesting picture there of a vehicle that was allegedly hit by a boulder, and this was the scientist, female scientists, who went up and wound up disappointed. appearing. Ingrid line. Yeah, let's take a look at this photo, for example, just for a moment. What I find very interesting as a former special agent myself is that if a boulder hit

this, I don't see any real damage to the top of the vehicle. What I see is damage into the back of the window as if someone tried to do some sort of smash and grab and maybe some minor damage below that on the trunk area. But what I don't see is anything that looks like a large boulder had come raining down from a cliff and smashed the back part of the vehicle there. And now maybe they were able to recover a rock or something, but that really does not look consistent to me as a giant boulder coming down from a hill and smashing the vehicle.

One would expect to have much, much more damage to that vehicle if that was a case. That is an incredible observation. It's right under our noses, but we didn't see it. That's why you are the former U.S. Army Counterintelligence Special Agent. I want to defend Matthew Sullivan because I feel that he, along with Amy Eskridge, along with Ingrid and others, is being painted in a, let me just say, a bad light. Matthew Sullivan earned a bronze star for valor in Operation Enduring Freedom. He worked for the Air Force Intelligence Agency, the National Air and Space Intelligence Agency, the National Security, the National Security agency. You know, it was stated by Major General David Abba that Sullivan held the quote

burden a few, a select few in this nation have of truly understanding what is going on in the field of jet propulsion, anti-gravity, UFO information. He had the highest recommendations. Yet, let me understand how Matthew died. Matthew died just before he was set to speak to members of Congress alone in a hotel room. To you, Dave Matt, crime stories investigative reporter, what were the circumstances surrounding his death? What did they say he had ingested? Nancy, they said that this Air Force veteran, Bronze Star recipient, Matthew James Sullivan, at the age of 39, died from a lethal mix of alcohol, alprazolam, cyclobenzaprine.

We've got alcohol, Xanax, a muscle relaxer, and a bedwetting, that is medication. That's what it is reported. For children? Yes, for children, yes. Eddie overdosed accidentally on those medications. You know, there was no autopsy there as well. And when I've circled back to Kevin Childress, Dave Mack, isn't it true regarding Kevin Children?

that no autopsy was performed and his death was chopped off to a heart attack because he was obese mixed with COVID. Yes, that, believe it or not, that is what was said by the medical examiner without doing an autopsy. Nancy, one thing to go back very quickly on Matthew Sullivan. No autopsy. None. Representative Eric Burleson, Nancy, he's a congressman from Missouri who serves on a House Oversight

Committee task force on the declass. of federal secrets. They were so shocked in his office at the death of Matthew Sullivan that Congressman Burleson reached out to the FBI and asked for them to do an investigation due to the timing of Sullivan's death. Sullivan was part of a legacy UFO program, the U.S. government crash retrieval program. He was part of the U.S. government's crash retrieval program. Lou Elizondo, what is that, the crash retrieval program?

Well, well, first of all, Nancy, it's a great question, and it's a question that I'm not allowed to answer. Let me just say this. I still maintain a security clearance with the United States government, and there are certain prohibitions that I have been told, and I've had to literally sign my name on a piece of paper saying that I would not discuss details about certain topics, XYZ. The notion of crash retrievals, unfortunately, is one of them. It is still considered very sensitive in the U.S. government. And I unfortunately, I cannot confirm nor deny or elaborate very much at all on that topic. But what I can say is what you're saying was absolutely what was communicated as well to Congress, that Mr. Sullivan here had some sort of affiliation with legacy

efforts and potentially reverse engineering. The UFO crash. retrieval operation, dubbed the legacy program. That's what we're talking about. And Shepard was into it up to his eyeballs. Before we go to special guest Frank Milburn to tie this all together with the suspicious death of his friend, Amy Esker, to Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining us. He is the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer. at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. He's a star of hit podcast, Mayhem in the morgue, his lighter side. Dr. Kendall Crowns, how is it someone can be pronounced dead via heart attack?

Because they're fat. Because they're overweight. They just died of a heart attack with no toxicology, no autopsy, no medical examiner sign off, nothing? Who said heart attack? So it depends on the jurisdictions. Some medical examiner offices or coroner, offices will actually sign cases out over the phone with a medical history, known complications like morbid obesity, if they have known to have heart disease, they'll use that to make the

decision of calling it a arthritis caribacteri vaster disease or a heart attack over the phone. Now, it just depends on the jurisdiction. Put him up, please. Put him up. Put him up. This is L.A. Are you telling me this is like Teledoc? they get some information over the phone, they go, okay, yeah, write it off his heart attack? So, yes, in some jurisdictions, they will do that.

And they will base it on age, medical history, things of that nature. My problem is, is you have an individual who's too young. I mean, he's under 50, found dead. Just because he's overweight doesn't mean he necessarily had a heart attack. He should be evaluated and looked at to make sure he did have heart disease and did die from. that and not something else, like an overdose or something nefarious. But he should have been looked at. But again, it's jurisdictional.

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To Frank Milburn joining us, a very dear friend of scientist Amy Eskridge, found dead, Milburn is a former British intelligence officer. He spoke with Amy just hours before her death. He does not believe she killed herself. And he is very familiar with technology on which she was working, as well as directed energy weapons, reportedly used against her. Frank Milburn, after all you have heard tonight,

including the names of two additional scientists, missing and dead. How do you compare that to Amy's case? What do you think is happening? Well, it literally makes the hair stand up on my neck, the hair that I do have. Yeah, I think it's very concerning. I mean, any time that you have people who are effectively walking encyclopedias on these kind of technologies, whether it's exhaustive propulsion, nuclear, and who have, you know, worked for government departments, and classified programs, then there's a counterintelligence red flag goes up and these things need to be investigated. In Amy's case, I've continued my own investigations and in the case of where,

you know, she was accusing people of corporate espionage, documented and receiving harassment from people who themselves have, you know, documented histories of legal problems because of, you know, violence against women and also making, you know, you know, violent threats against her and other people. So that's extremely concerning to me, and it's extremely concerning seeing these other scientists. I'm still, I don't have the FBI, you know, bird's eye view, but I'm hoping that they will investigate,

you know, all of these cases on their merits, you know, individually, whether there's some kind of like, you know, overarching conspiracy or not. And I hope so in the Amy Eskridge case, that they also revisit the FBI investigation into her in 2022, because Amy said that she was speaking to the FBI for three months, prior to her death in 2022. And then she was told by the FBI,

and this is her words through me, saying she was told that the FBI don't have, quote, jurisdiction to investigate her case, which I find very, very worrying because I had passed this information to the FBI via a third party precisely because I saw this as a big counterintelligence red flag,

given who she was, given who her father is, and given what they were both working on at the Institute for Exotic Science. What goes through your mind? when you hear about another and another and another scientist missing or dead, this time from a bolder attack, the other because of a heart attack with no medical examiner's report. I mean, it just goes on and on.

Yeah, well, I mean, I agree with Lou and, you know, being an old, you know, counterintelligence guy myself like he was. I relate 100% to what he's saying, and he was spot on about the vehicle as well, the lack of vehicular damage. And it's extremely concerning. As I say, it's a counterintelligence red flag, or red flags. Red flags, in the plural. Yes. And finally, back to Lou Elizondo joining us, former U.S. Army Counterintelligence Special Agent,

former director, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The reason I keep reading out your qualifications and Frank's qualifications and everyone on the panel tonight is because you, many of you, have been given top clearances by the U.S. government, as have these victims. They cannot be written off as crackpots. The way that Ingrid was written off, the way that Amy is written off, trying to paint them as drug abusers. That did not happen. Matthew Sullivan did not have a drug problem and he wasn't taking pills for child's bedwetting. I want to hear your thoughts, Lou.

And I want to hear you mentioned it, but you didn't go into it about threats or harassment. that you received. Yeah. No, you're absolutely correct, Nancy. Myself and many of my colleagues have been subject to those harassment and threat campaigns. We've had our security clearance is threatened. You know, I hate to say it, but there's a reason why I live in the middle of nowhere with five German shepherds and I'm heavily armed.

The reality is that we've been told by several individuals, some of them law enforcement, some of them, even members of Congress, who said, hey, look, you know, they are very upset with what you guys are doing and you're putting a mark on yourself. Fortunately, in my case, I think, because I have enough public persona that maybe it's a little more difficult to just do something and make it look like an accident. But look, governments are fully capable of doing this. And this is not conspiracy. People say, well, our government wouldn't do that.

Well, if that's a case, I would encourage anybody to look up the term MK Ultra, where the CIA had administered LSD to unsuspecting civilians. civilians resulting in the death of at least one. Look at things like the Tuskegee experiment, where we allowed human beings to be infected with syphilis and allowed syphilis to go to its conclusion, which ultimately is death, even though we had the antibiotics to protect these individuals, just in the name of science, we allowed these individuals to die. So there's a long list of things that we have done that have not been very good or kind to our

citizens in the past. I hope it's not the case that they would still be doing that, but I also know from personal experience that they are very capable of doing it. Now, also, one thing too, you mentioned very interesting. When we look at intelligence and Frank will tell you the same thing, and counterintelligence specifically, there are things we call tradecraft. It's kind of tools of the trade, how we do business, or how we ask others, like sources to do business.

And this one individual, we keep going back to that car with the alleged boulder that broke into the back of it, The individual was found with a burner phone, if I'm correct. And a burner phone is very interesting because a burner phone is used when you want to communicate with somebody, but you want to do it in secret. You want to do it clandestinely because a burner phone isn't necessarily assigned to you through one of the various carriers. A burner phone really doesn't have an identity. And so the question is, why was this top scientist carrying around with them a burner phone? Usually, again, burner phones are used to convey information that you don't want other people to know that you're conveying.

Was this person going to be another whistleblower potentially? Was this person having a conversation already, perhaps with somebody in our government or perhaps maybe even a journalist, right? We simply don't know. But the fact that the person was never found, the car is not. the condition that is in. They were found with a burner phone. These are all things to me that raised my eyebrow. And I'm hopeful that the FBI will continue to track this down. I think there's enough information there. Look, there's enough. If somebody wants to disappear now today's day and age, it's very difficult. There's something we call digital exhaust. And anytime you log on to anything,

whether it's an email account or a bank account or hospital records, you leave a little bit of electronic exhaust in your wake. And that can be found. Trained professionals within the U.S. Marshal Service within FBI, they know how to track down individuals. So the fact that a lot of these people remain missing for me is even greater concern because it's as if they just disappeared. There's no evidence. There's no trace left behind other than stuff that is, quite frankly, rather suspicious. So I think we have a right to ask the questions that we're asking. And it may turn out that this list that you are compiling may be considerably larger. And I hope that's not the case, but it is quite possible that this is just the tip of the iceberg. And if that's the case,

then, you know, we're going to have to have a much more difficult conversation amongst ourselves. Speaking of the burner phone, Lou, it is reminiscent of the missing mom, Melissa Cassius, who takes her daughter a subway sandwich for lunch, then disappears. She left on foot no cell phone, no wallet, no purse, no keys. But when her items were searched, the cell phone, personal and work phone, had to be. had both been factory reset before she went on a walk. Interesting. She worked with Chavez at Los Alamos. Chavez also missing.

Now we have Ingrid Lane turning up missing with a burner phone. Her car disabled by a boulder attack, which, based on your observations, clearly did not happen. If you know or think you know anything regarding our missing and dead. No medical examiner report for COD. Please dial toll-free 800. Call FBI. That's 800. 225-5-3-2-4.

We remember American hero, Officer Don Keller, Greenwood, PD, South Carolina. At 31, killed in the line of duty after just three years on the force, leaving behind his wife, now widow, Allison, and a two-year-old little girl sentenced to life without dad. American hero officer Don Keller. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast.

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