Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Female cop masterminds deadly hit on HUBBY and her LOVER'S TEEN DAUGHTER!

Episode Date: July 12, 2019

New York City Police Department officer, Valerie Cincinelli, is accused of trying to hire a hitman to kill her estranged husband, Isaiah Carvalho Jr. The case takes a number of twists and turns after an unlikely informant contacts the FBI. Now her lawyers want a psychiatric evaluation. Joining Nancy Grace today: Sheryl McCollum  Atlanta PD crime scene investigator   Wendy Patrick     Trial attorney & author of “Red Flags”Bobby Chacon Retired FBI special agentCaryn Stark    PsychologistCrimeoneline.com investigative reporters Dave Mack and John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is a New York City police officer tasked with protecting and serving, who, according to the FBI, went out and tried to hire a hitman in order to kill her estranged husband and the daughter of her boyfriend. It's not something that you expect from any police officer. At first look, 34-year-old Valerie Cincinelli is a role model, a 12-year decorated veteran of the NYPD and mother of two. But federal authorities say behind the scenes she was plotting murder

for the past few months. Her story made headlines last Friday. A shocking story involving an NYPD officer accused of hiring a hitman to kill not only her estranged husband but her boyfriend's teenage daughter as well. I didn't want to believe it but apparently it's true. Did a female cop actually order a hit? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter.

What happened? Nancy Valerie Cincinnati is a decorated police officer in New York City for many years. And apparently she got fed up with her ex-husband over their child, over their son, and went to her boyfriend, her current boyfriend, and said, I want to take him out. Go get me a hitman. And the boyfriend says, yeah, I think I might know a guy. And that's where it began. But then Cincinnati says, hey, let's take out your 14-year-old daughter too. That's when the boyfriend goes to the cops and says, hey, man, we've got a problem with one of your cops. So wait a minute.

She wanted to not only get rid of her estranged husband, but she wanted to get rid of her boyfriend's teen girl? Yeah, she's 14 years old, and apparently Cincinnati didn't care for her at all. You know, Cheryl McCollum, longtime colleague and friend, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. You know, I don't know why I don't just stop saying this, but every time I say I think I've seen it all, then, you know, I say something else, and then I say it again, I think I've seen it all. You know, we worked in the trenches together, fighting crime, looking for defendants looking for evidence digging through the dirt for shell casings the works you know you think cheryl an in a cop a veteran cop would know better yeah wait did you actually just say, yep, that's your answer?

No, that's not my answer. Not only does she want to kill her ex-husband, and ladies, hear me when I say, there's a reason he's an ex, okay? Can't you just leave it at that? He's your ex. Go. Be happy. Run like a young gazelle. Get away from him. Why get mired down in having a hit put on him that's for our shrink karen stark but cheryl okay i'm expecting a little more than yep from you no no i was getting to it oh now i get no now i get no okay i guess that's an improvement just so overwhelming because you're talking about such an iconic police department first of all i. I mean, the world looks to NYPD for training. And then you've got not only a veteran, but a decorated veteran who foiled a bank robbery on

her own. I mean, it is baffling to me that she thought this very elementary plan was going to work, that you go to the person that is your boyfriend that you've had a volatile relationship with that you don't really trust because he's had you arrested, but that's who you go to to find a hitman? I mean, this wouldn't even be a good made-for-TV movie. I don't know. I think I'd like to see just a made-for-TV movie, but first, can we just get through the trial?

And again, before defense attorneys get all tuned up, second verse, same as the first, yeah, she's innocent until proven guilty. Maybe I should just

start the program with that. Of course she's innocent until she's proven guilty. But what you said about the NYPD, you're right. Because we have lived in New York for many, many years since I

moved to New York to start a show with Johnny Cochran, God rest his soul, and the NYPD is great. They're tough when they need to be, when, okay, I know this is a tiny snapshot, but whenever the twins walk up to an NYPD, they couldn't be nicer. I've seen them be harsh, but you know what? They needed to be harsh at that moment when they did it. And yes, every police force has bad apples, and they make everybody else look bad. But I think you're right. I think they are iconic.

Overall, Cheryl McCollum. Okay, let's get some facts before I get Cheryl McCollum all strung out on what we think happened. Joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, John Limley. Okay, Limley, start at the beginning. First of all, why would you stay with a guy that's already had you arrested once? Uh-uh, I'd take the Pat and Turner. Pat the street and turn a corner. Oh yeah, I'd be way gone from him. But she stayed. Now she's in the pokey, deservedly. John Limley, what do I need to know? Well, that has been an on-again, off-again, on-again, off-again relationship for quite some time. I think you should say it one more time, just so Jackie Howard gets it. On-again, off-again.

Okay, good. I got it. I got it. On again, off again. Jackie, did you? Okay, good. Go ahead, John Limley. You know, as we're sort of setting the scene for this woman, this decorated police officer, Cheryl McCollum mentioned a story actually that went viral about this police officer in 2017. One of Cincinnati's arrests really made headlines when she caught a man literally red-handed. This time, a man went to a Howard Beach bank and demanded cash. He left with a bag filled with $1,300. Let me guess, the dye pack went off. Yes, a red dye bomb. Oh, I'm so happy.

I could not be happier. When the bomb exploded, the man dropped the money, ran for it. Officer Cincinnati happened to be in the Howard Beach area at the time. Wait a minute. That was Valerie Cincinnati who allegedly ordered a hitman? Yes. Holy moly. I didn't realize it. Okay, hold on.

Bobby Chacon joining me, FBI Special Agent Bobby Chacon. I mean, bank robberies are hard to break, okay, because usually they're very well thought out. You go into a bank, you got a plan, you know it's armed, you know there's all sorts of surveillance. I've prosecuted a bank robbery before. Usually the feds take it away because it's FDIC insured, but I managed to have a bank robbery before. Usually the feds take it away because it's FDIC insured, but I managed to have a bank robbery. Cheryl, I don't know if you remember that one. That's with the dyslexic bank

robber. Don't touch the Alram. This is the Roby translation. Don't touch the alarm. This is a robbery. Needless to say, we did a handwriting, and he reversed all of his letters in the handwriting comparison. That helped. Bobby Chacon, this woman stopped a bank robber. Dypack, no Dypack. And now this? That really doesn't make sense that she's that good and did something this bad, allegedly. Well, you know, first of all, I'll echo your sentiments about the NYPD.

My brother and father are both retired nypd detectives um however you know this particular officer while she did mess it up go with the feds okay go ahead encouragement of my father um but she you know this particular officer also had some uh uh bad behavior in her police record. Also, she had previously been suspended and her gun taken away and put on modified duty because— Wait, wait, wait, wait. For what? For what? What did she do to get suspended? She was a previous boyfriend, of all things, reported that she was spending time at his house while she was on duty.

And so she's had some discipline against her. What is with this woman's boyfriends? You know, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags on Amazon. Bobby Chacon, hold on just a moment. John Limley, just hold that thought. We women have got to get together on this. Cheryl McCullough, Wendy Patrick, Karen Stark.

Another boyfriend reports her for being at his house while she's on duty. She probably just swang by for a ham and cheese sandwich. What's wrong with that, Wendy Patrick? Yeah, you know, Nancy, it's really a great point you bring up. Are we to be only judged by the company we keep? And if so, why are we so bad at choosing our personal relationships when apparently we're all so good at our jobs professionally? This lady seems to be one more example of that. You're right. There does seem to be a pattern to the problems that she's having in her life. This will no doubt make her sympathetic. I know everybody hates to say that because what she did was awful, but that'll be something a defense attorney will probably pick up on. This is

something the father is already stating that it's the son, it's the, it's the, it's the boyfriend. It's, you know, it's somebody else's fault that God are involved in this, but you are right. It is, it is curious that there is this steady string of, let's just say problematic relationship. Well, wait a minute. You have a very good point there and a good defense attorney is going to latch right on. Listen, I'm not saying the woman's innocent. Okay. Because when you get a hitman case case they've got you every which way but loose they've got you on tape they've got you on video here they stung her with fake murder photos but you know there's a very good point a defense attorney is going to latch on to take a listen to cbs

valerie castro outside cincinelli's dad's house. Listen. This guy that she's involved with is a wacko psycho. NYPD officer Valerie Cincinelli, once praised for her role in stopping a Queens bank robbery, now arrested and accused of hatching a plot to hire a hitman. Neighbors were stunned after FBI agents were seen carrying boxes of evidence out of her home. I really can't believe this, going this far. It's just, I just, just, maybe like I said before, I don't want to believe it. Her intended targets, an ex-husband and the 15-year-old daughter of her current boyfriend, according to sources.

The price, $7,000. Investigators say the 34-year-old enlisted the help of her boyfriend, but he went to police and became a confidential source. INVESTIGATORS SAY THE HITMAN WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A

FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A

FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A

FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. THE HITMAN'S FRIEND WAS A

FRIEND OF THE HITMAN'S. Run her the expletive over. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. As for her ex-husband, she hoped his death could be made to look like a robbery gone bad. Friday morning, FBI agents posing as the hitman sent her text messages, which included a photograph of the defendant's estranged husband appearing dead in his car and the demand for an additional $3,000 to kill the daughter. Cincinnati then allegedly told her boyfriend she was deleting the text messages and pictures to cover up her involvement in the crime. The allegations are tough to grasp for the man who lives next door and has met both

Cincinnati's ex-husband and her current boyfriend. She's got two kids, man, and she's a police officer. Will she really do something like that? I don't know. Cincinnati's father says his daughter is the real victim of the man who turned against her. There's no doubt that he manipulated multiple conversations to come up with his statements. He's very smart, but he's a pathological liar and there's something wrong with his brain. Investigators say Cincinnati was also recorded discussing what her alibi would be saying she would be sure to be home at the time of the murders. She's being held without bail. Prosecutors argued she is a danger to the community. Did a decorated NYPD cop try to hire a hitman to kill her ex-husband?

And as if that's not enough, she is now accused of trying to rub out to murder her boyfriend's daughter. Teen girl. Bottom line saying, just rudder the F over. I'm understanding that prosecution, the prosecutors are asking for no bond because they believe she is that dangerous if she's released. What about it, Dave Mack? You know, they actually mentioned the fact that she's had a number of problems with past marriages, with violence in those marriages, emotional issues as well. And having seen her activities on the police force over the years, they've got this idea that she's not as balanced as she is trying to portray herself. That's why they've taken everything away from her and said, no, she's not getting out.

You're saying that the reason they're not giving her bond is because of her history of past. What do you mean by history of past domestic incidents? There were a number of incidents on file. She's been married before, and there were arguments that escalated into violence. And the judge in the case decided there was too much there to allow her to go out, that she has a history of bad relationships that turn violent. You know, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, we've certainly seen her share her cases way in.

Her background is flag after flag after flag after flag. Yeah, you know what? A string of exes in your background that all had arrested you and that you physically fought with and written up every five minutes. Oh, no. It's her record. Karen Stark, psychologist. You can find her at karenstark.com.

Joining us today from Manhattan, Karen Stark. It's her record. Look, you can blame the boyfriends all you want to. You can blame the ex-husband all you want to. She's the one that took the money out of the bank to pay the hitman. She's the one that said, run her the F over to the hitman. I'm sure she's on tape. You know, they got to get everything on tape.

She was part of it, part and parcel. You're talking about a psychopath, Nancy. Go ahead. You're talking about a psychopath. And when you're talking about somebody like that, a murderer, you cannot persuade another person to commit those kind of crimes. And you're talking about somebody who has no feelings. So it doesn't take a lot to stir somebody up and get them to decide, you know what? My ex is in the way.

I think I'll just kill him. And while I'm at it, why not kill your daughter? Because, you know, she's annoying to me, too. And that's people are not real. She could care less about what she does. You know, Wendy Patrick, Karen Stark is right. It's her. It is Valerie Cinchinelli.

Because aside from each particular man, if you look at her history, she's got the first incident where she's caught on duty hanging out at some guy's house. Then she's been arrested for another incident and with a boyfriend. Now this incident. I mean, that's three. That's three. I mean, if I showed up late to court one time, I'd be in trouble as an assistant district attorney. I mean, trouble. I mean, she, you can't turn away from the fact that when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. She's got three incidents already, Wendy. That's right. So three strikes, you're out. Now here we are again. And you're absolutely right. You know, prior bad acts is the legal definition. It shouldn't really be called

that because they're not bad acts. Sometimes they're criminal. Sometimes they are, I sometimes say patterns make the predator when we're talking about sex offenses. But in a pattern like this, you've just got to wonder whether or not, at what point is it her own bad choices that is to blame rather than being under the influence of a bad relationship? And one of the issues in court is going to be how much of these prior incidents are admissible in order to explain what she did. Are they relevant

enough? Are they similar enough? Maybe not. But it also cuts against the really the giving her a break, which is something that the jury might otherwise be tempted to do. Well, this is what we know. Cincinnati was hired 2007. She was a domestic violence officer assigned to the 106 precinct. She became involved with a local man she met on the job. She was stripped of her badge and gun in 2017 after she ended the relationship and the guy ratted her out to Internal Affairs claiming she spent time at his Howard Beach home while on duty. What a coinkydink that he reported her after she dumped him so we're not sure if that's the guy who was described as an older quote sugar daddy who paid for her car and other bills or uh

is that the same one in this alleged murder for hire plot what we do know is her husband isaiah carvalho jr sued her for divorce in nassau County. They had a trial set for June. You know, the divorce lawyer is happy the whole thing was foiled, but I want to get back to the facts. John Lindley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. I want you to take a listen to CBS Valerie Castro. As for her ex-husband, she hoped his death could be made to look like a robbery gone bad. Friday morning, FBI agents posing as the hitman sent her text messages, which included a photograph of the defendant's estranged husband appearing dead in his car and the demand for an additional $3,000 to kill the daughter. Cincinnati then allegedly told her boyfriend she was deleting the text messages and pictures to cover up her involvement in the crime. The allegations are THE MAN WHO TURNED AGAINST HER IS A FATHER OF A MAN WHO CONTINUED TO TALK ABOUT HIS FAMILY. THE MAN WHO TURNED AGAINST HER

FATHER IN THE FIRST PLACE ACCIDENTALLY TOLD HER BOYFRIEND SHE WAS DELETING THE TEXT MESSAGES AND PICTURES TO COVER UP HER INVOLVEMENT IN THE CRIME. THE ALLEGATIONS ARE TOUGH TO GRASP FOR THE MAN WHO LIVES

NEXT DOOR AND HAS MET BOTH CINCINNELLI'S EX-HUSBAND AND HER CURRENT BOYFRIEND. SHE'S GOT TWO KIDS, MAN. AND SHE'S A POLICE OFFICER. WILL SHE REALLY DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT? I DON'T KNOW.

CINCINNELLI'S FATHER SAYS HIS DAUGHTER IS THE REAL VICTIM OF THE MAN WHO TURNED AGAINST HER. THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT HE MANIPULATED MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS TO COME UP WITH HIS STATEMENTS. the real victim of the man who turned against her. There's no doubt that he manipulated multiple conversations to come up with his statements. He's very smart, but he's a pathological liar and there's something wrong with his brain. Investigators say Cincinnati was also recorded discussing what her alibi would be, saying she would be sure to be home at the time of the murders. She's being held without bail.

Prosecutors argued she is a danger to the murders. She's being held without bail. Prosecutors argued she is a danger to the community. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Investigators say Cincinnati was also recorded discussing what her alibi would be saying she would be sure to be home at the time of the murders. She's being held without bail. Prosecutors argued she is a danger to the community. Whoa. We are talking about an NYPD officer.

She's a Jennifer Lopez lookalike who allegedly hires a hitman not only to murder her ex, her husband seeking a divorce, but also to murder her boyfriend's teen daughter, who doesn't like her. Straight out to Cheryl McCullen, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Wow. There's no way around that. Not at all. And Nancy, you know, you and I used to discuss all the time the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Two men have gotten restraining orders against this woman. Even if you listen to her dad, he talks about the current boyfriend.

He says it's a lie, but he said the current boyfriend said she pulled a gun on him and threatened to kill him. This isn't new behavior for her this violence this you know plotting and scheming i don't think it's anything new i really don't the jury you know they're gonna understand oh you're mad at an ex-husband and you want him murdered okay that's you know whatever but you throw in that little girl that's a game changer for anybody. Let me ask you a question. I understand that angry text messages to her boyfriend and online searches for quote Long Island Lolita and Amy Fisher arose. What's that about, Dave Mack? You know, it's interesting when you talk about the text message dealing with those first. There was actually a challenge between Cincinnati and her boyfriend

and the hitman, the supposed hitman, because there was a question about the hitman. And again, remember, this is a guy pretending to be the hitman. It's the FBI. And they don't want to take the girl out, the 14-year-old. They don't want to kill her near the school. And they're trying to get Cincinnati to, you know, cop to Moore on the text. And she says, well, let's separate the killings by a couple of weeks. And why don't you just run her over with a car? And that's where you get the, you know, you got Cincinnati talking to the

boyfriend and the alleged hitman, where she's suggesting to spread out the murder so they're not too close together and hit the girl with the car if you have to. Do you know anything about the online search for Long Island Lolita and Amy Fisher? Since then, we actually did a couple of interesting searches. One was about Amy Fisher, and she was trying to determine how Amy Fisher went and shot Joey Buttafuoco's wife. Most of us remember that story. It was referred to as the Long Island Lolita. Amy Fisher ended up going Joey Buttafuoco's wife. Most of us remember that story. It was referred to as the Long Island Lita. Amy Fisher ended up going to prison for several years. But she was searching that and searching what happens to her pension

in the event that a spouse passes away. They had these Google searches on her computer, which indicated her thought process about killing people and benefiting financially. So she was looking up how much money she would make if her husband, who was a cop, passed away. What would her pension be? Yeah, she was concerned about what would happen with the pension when the ex was dead. Okay, straight out to Jason Oceans, New York defense attorney.

How do you combat that in court? That's, you know, a fantasy. I mean, what further acts, you know, happen beyond that, you know, role play and satisfying her, you know, sociopathic thoughts, but not acting on them. I don't know. You know, sometimes you struggle to find a line as a defense attorney that you could exploit. And as you and I both know, it's up to the jury to sift through that. It's not my job people think, that computers aren't accessible, bleach bits or anything else for that matter. Well, I mean, just the other day, just the other day, I searched Amy Fisher because I'm in the middle of writing a nonfiction book, Don't Be a Victim. And for some reason, I looked up Amy Fisher, who is the Long Island Lolita. I'm certainly not planning a murder.

So, Jason, that type of search to me could be construed as innocent. But looking up how much money you'd make if your husband is killed and you're talking to an alleged hitman, it looks bad. Take a listen to our friend at Inside Edition. Suspended police officer inspired by the notorious Amy Fisher case when she allegedly tried to have her husband murdered. I'll be acquitted because I did not do this. NYPD officer Valerie Cincinelli allegedly Googled the love triangle case that made international news 27 years ago.

Amy Fisher, dubbed the Long Island Lolita, is the teen who is having an affair with the married body shop owner, Joey Buttafuoco. She shot Buttafuoco's wife, Mary Jo, in the face and served seven years in prison. She is now 44 years old. Authorities say she wanted her estranged husband killed because she was concerned she'd have to share her NYPD pension with him. According to court papers, she Googled the Amy Fisher case as well as the phrase, If your ex dies, do you get your whole pension?

Her estranged husband, Isaiah Carvalho, spoke to Good Morning America. I didn't want to believe it, but apparently it's true. I'll be acquitted because I did not do this. Apparently, they actually carried out quite the sting because cops send a local detective to Officer Cincinelli, the wife and mother, Long Island Home, to make a fake notification her husband had been found murdered. When they told her that, Cinc, Cincinnati sobs, breaks down crying,

but hidden devices then record her discussing an alibi immediately after she closes the door. What happened, Dave Mack? You know, the police were involved from the very beginning because the boyfriend notified them. The FBI staged this killing

to make it look like the ex-husband actually was dead. And when they approached Cincinnati, they, you know, good news, bad news kind of thing, and they arrested her. And of course, she's claiming it was all the boyfriend that he entrapped her into this. As you know, an FBI agent posing as the hitman

sends a text showing Carvalho, that's her husband's, dead body. And in response, she, the wife, the cop, Cincinelli, tells the informant to delete the text message and the photographs. And she even writes she's afraid the cops could subpoena her phone. I'm getting this from prosecutorial documents. Listen to this. According to a criminal complaint in February, Cincinnati began plotting the murders, allegedly withdrawing seven thousand dollars in cash and giving it to her boyfriend who converted it to gold coins.

The fake hitman's preferred method of payment. There was a concern about bunching the two jobs together and according to court records Cincinnati said let's get the girl this weekend and so that's when the boyfriend says I don't know where she's gonna be Cincinnati says let's track her on social media. On May 13th Cincinnati's boyfriend says the hitman wants an extra $3,000 and that the hitman didn't want to carry out the daughter's murder near the school, to which Cincinnati responded, run her the blank over. How about that?

Then just days later, last Friday, authorities break the news to Carvalho. They told me, we don't know how to tell you this, but your wife put a hit on you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You're hearing the very latest about an NYPD, New York Police Department officer, who allegedly hires a hitman to murder not only her ex-husband, but her boyfriend's daughter as well. Joining me in all-star panel, Cheryl McCullen, director, Cold Case Research Institute. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon. Bobby Chacon, FBI special agent.

Karen Stark, psychologist. KarenStark.com. And John Limley, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Let me ask you something to you, John Limley. We're learning that the boyfriend balked when it came to murdering his own daughter. But it sounds like she, Valerie Cincinnati, was going forward with the plan anyway. Yeah, that was, she was, what's the phrase, hell-bent on getting this taken care of. You know, it's sort of ironic. Wait a minute, why are you on getting this taken care of you know it's sort of ironic wait a minute why are you saying getting it taken care of that sounds like you're going to run down to the

med first and get a shot we're going to get that taken care of that's sort of the way she well i know she may but not you limley for pete's sake oh oh heavens no okay mary poppins john limley getting it taken care of is hardly a way to describe having the girl effing run over outside of school. Bobby Chacon, FBI special agent. Why did she, was she so intent on having the murders occur outside? Well, and this is one thing that the jury's going to get chilled at is the callousness of her talk. She didn't want her place to get messed up. The callousness of you're about to murder your ex-husband, the father of your child,

and your only concerns is that if it happens inside, it might be too messy. Just got Morgan joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. She, Officer Valerie Tintinelli, claims she was set up

by her boyfriend. True, not true. Not true. My, good Lord. You know, does your mind work? This lady has been involved in police work for years and years and years. And you guys had mentioned that she's highly decorated. She knows how investigations work.

I don't know what in her wildest fantasies she thought that she was going to get away with here, that she didn't think that she was going to get caught relative to the overlapping of these circumstances with this poor little girl that she wanted to target, in addition to this man. It's absolutely amazing. But how can they prove the boyfriend is not setting her up? What evidence shows that? Well, I think that their communications, Nancy, she's the, what does he have to gain with this relative to setting her up, if you will? And what's the impetus behind the whole thing? She is the igniter for this whole thing, driving it downrange. Plus, they have all of this other evidence or background of her violent behavior moving forward relative to other relationships that she's been involved in.

To Dave Matt, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, how can, because we know that's where she's going, how can the prosecutors refute her claim her boyfriend set her up well she's claiming it because you know he's the one who said yeah i know a guy well as soon as he said i know a guy he'll do it for seven grand he goes to the fbi so that's how they're going to refute that is he immediately went to the fbi said hey man this girl wants to take out her ex as well as my daughter and that's when the fbi started everything in motion. What's the evidence that shows she's the mastermind? The fact that she went to her boyfriend and he took this, you know, the idea of finding a guy for her. Then she went and got the $7,000 cash out of the bank because the boyfriend said that the hitman, the so-called FBI hitman, he wanted gold instead. So they actually have her going and getting $7,000 in cash out of the bank and then converting it into gold because that was how he wanted to be paid.

Bobby Chacon, FBI special agent. Have you noticed that when you're in the force, when you're a prosecutor or a cop or a bail bondsman, you're in the business for a long time. You're in that you get used to it. You get numbed to it. Not numb. I guess numb isn't the right word. You are conditioned to it. You're not shocked anymore. You accept things more quickly than you did before you were in the crime business. And I really think that some cops go bad because it just doesn't seem that bad to them anymore because they've been around it so much. It's like this. The first time I ever had to curse, I mean, every foul word you

can think of, the C word, the P word, the F word, the every word you can think of. I was reading a statement to a jury. I was telling a jury what the defendant had said. And I had to really work myself up to say these words out loud in front of a jury. And they were shocked. And I was shocked. I could hardly say it. But then the next time I said it, Bobby Chacon, wasn't so hard. Then the next time, and before you knew it, I was just saying it all on my own. I wasn't quoting and defending anymore. I had to clean up my act when I had the twins, of course, no more of that. But that's what I'm saying. You're around this, you're around crime all the time. And somehow to some people, it doesn't seem so bad anymore.

Well, I don't know, Nancy. You know, I take my dad as an example. He was a detective in the 50s and 60s at the NYPD in the 70s. And yes, while he did develop a hardened shell at work when he saw all these things, and he couldn't react to them as much, he couldn't be emotional about it. But at the same time, at home with his family, he became more caring and more kind and more protective because of the things he was seeing at work. And so, you know, he drew that line and most of us have drawn that line with

the things we see at work, the things we see in the street, we don't bring home. This officer had no line. It seems like the things that she was experiencing at work, she thought we are fine to bring home and actually do at home. So I think that in this case, the line, she just didn't have a line. And I think that many of us developed that line where we become more caring and more concerned, more protective at home because of the things we see and the more things we see at work. Well, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags, that's the way prosecution worked on me. I became more vigilant, more protective, more alert, but I wasn't as shocked. I was still hurt every time I would see a violent crime victim, but I wasn't shocked anymore. After you see it thousands and thousands, literally tens of thousands of

times, you're not shocked anymore. And I'm wondering if that's what happened to Valerie Cincinnati. It kind of became okay in her mind. Yeah. You know, Nancy, you may not be shocked, but you are still passionate about what you do. I can hear it in your voice every time you discuss this segment. So too with all my fellow guests. The passion is still there, wanting justice for victims. What we just heard was completely devoid of any of that. The laughing in discussing, well, how is it going to happen? The date that it would be convenient. Those kinds of things really evinces, I think one of your other guests said, almost a callousness that goes above and beyond simply becoming desensitized because you work law

enforcement for too many years. That tape and that voice, that is what's going to be most persuasive to a jury. You just can't capture that through a transcript or through somebody else describing what she said. It is that, I suppose, lack of passion and concern that I think is going to be most telling when this gets in front of a trial. To Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us, the judge has just ordered a psychiatric evaluation. Could this be a different strategy that she is using and will it work? It won't work, Nancy, because it's very clear that she knows the difference between right and wrong. She actually was the one that, she was the mastermind. She set this whole thing up. She was not even upset. She was glad to hear that, this fake story that her ex was dead.

She acted, you know, as though she was hysterical. She did a really good acting job. So she definitely knew what she was doing. And even though it's hard for people to believe that anybody who is sane could do something like this, that's who this person is. That's exactly who she is. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. this is an iHeart podcast