Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Female Google software pro found dead, naked AND confessions of a womb-raider Killer

Episode Date: December 14, 2017

Nancy Grace looks at the deaths of 2 young women in this episode. Nancy is joined by death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, psychologist Dr. Tiffany Sanders, medical examiner Dr. William Morrone, reporter Drew Nelson and co-host Alan Duke. A cyclist found the naked body of Chuchu Ma, 23, floating in the San Francisco Bay last week, not long after her boyfriend reported the Google engineer missing. The autopsy report is still pending. A North Dakota woman admitted in court this week that she kidnapped and killed Savanna LaFontaine-Greywind so she could steal the pregnant woman's baby from her womb. Grace and experts look at the case. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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But mom and dad can still use the Internet to get their work done. Use code Nancy at CircleWithNancy.com. Get $10 off your Circle and free shipping. CircleWithNancy.com. Offer code Nancy. Thank you, Circle circle for protecting our children crime stories with nancy grace on sirius xm triumph channel 132 sunnyvale police are trying to figure out how a google engineer ended up dead in san francisco bay a young woman was discovered

floating naked in the water last week it's a tranquil setting here along the Bay Trail that stretches through Mountain View and Sunnyvale. But that sense of peace was interrupted last Thursday when a passerby saw a naked body of a woman floating in the water. A citizen actually riding their bike this morning saw the body in the water. The Santa Clara County Sheriff's dive team recovered the body of 23-year-old Choo Choo Ma. The same day, police say her boyfriend filed a missing persons report with Mountain View Police. We're talking to family, we're talking to friends, we're talking to acquaintances. A gorgeous young woman, a Google engineer, brains and beauty, goes missing. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. I want to go straight out first to Drew Nelson, Crime Stories contributing reporter. Drew, please explain to me when this young girl, brains and beauty, goes missing. How do we know she went missing? Her boyfriend reported her missing in Mountain View, California. Joining me, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, right there when a boyfriend reports a young lady, and I'm talking specifically about 23-year-old Chiu, last name Ma,

the boyfriend becomes the first suspect, whether they're guilty or not. Explain why that is. Some people think it's unfair. I don't. No, it's not unfair, Nancy. It's logical, and it's pragmatic. The idea here is that who are we going to be in most danger with? And that's the intimates, the people that we are most intimate with in our immediate circle. That's why husbands and boyfriends, wives and girlfriends are always going to be looked at first in all of these cases. Joining me, Dr. Tiffany Sanders, Chicago psychologist. Dr. Tiffany, thanks so much for weighing in this morning. We need you. This beautiful young girl, Chu, many people has a nickname called her Chuchu,

was a software engineer in the developer product team. And she was doing great. She'd been working at Google for a year and a half and had obtained her degree at University of Texas at Austin. The police in Sunnyvale state that it's a mystery. Why is it that you always look at the boyfriend or the husband or the converse, the wife or the girlfriend first? Well, Nancy, in many cases, you're going to ask, why would a stranger accost or assault someone, someone they don't even know, right? So there wouldn't be enough reason or motive behind a random person doing such harm to this young lady, beautiful young lady. So you want to examine, are there any situations of domestic violence or conflict within the home or with

intimate family members because that would be the only plausible or rational thought when you wouldn't suspect a random person just coming up to her. You're right. And what it boils down to, Dr. Tiffany, in my world, motive and opportunity. Who has the most opportunity to hurt a victim? The people around her the most. The people that see her the most. You start with boyfriend, lover, husband, ex-boyfriend. Then you move out. Family members like father, grandfather, uncle, cousin. Then you move out. Next door neighbor. Then you move out. People that live in the apartment complex or neighborhood. Then you move out. Next door neighbor. Then you move out. People that live in the apartment complex or neighborhood. Then you move out.

Paper delivery person. FedEx delivery person. Mail person. Long care person. Yeah, yeah. Then you move out from there. Guy at the checkout. Guy at the parking garage.

People she sees at work. That you keep moving out until you find the perp. And if it's not within her circle, then you got a problem because it's random and you don't know which way to go. But then back to Drew Nelson. Crime Stories contributing investigative reporter. Drew, again, thank you so much for being with us. Then let me just fast forward a tranquil, very peaceful setting along the San Francisco Bay Trail, which is absolutely stunning. You know, I took my children on an RV trip. It was me, my husband, the two children, and my mother. 90 pounds of tiger meat, as I like to say,

in an RV. Let me just say, first of all, Drew Nelson, because you're going to want to know the facts. My mother took up the entire back two-thirds of the RV. She got the king bed and the little bathroom. It was all for her. It was just easier that way. Trust me. I slept on a twin bed that was also a deck sofa that was around the table. My husband slept on the other side of the table and the twins somehow squirreled up in a loft over the driver's seat. I don't know where we were, but I learned all over again how to start a fire with lighter fluid, which I dropped into the fire as the children were shrieking. My point, Drew Nelson, is that we ended up at the Golden Gate Bridge, and I forced the little layabouts to walk across the Golden Gate Bridge with me. They complained bitterly for about the first two minutes.

Then they loved it. And we looked out at the San Francisco Bay, and it was like nothing I've ever seen before. It was just incredible. And I've got that in my mind, juxtaposed against what I am going to ask you. That tranquil setting along the San Francisco Bay Trail, it stretches through Mountain View and Sunnyvale, where Choo Choo goes missing and was completely that sense of peace completely torn apart. What happened to Drew Nelson?

And imagine this idyllic setting, as you're saying. There's a cyclist who rides by every day overlooking San Francisco Bay in Sunnyvale, California. And today, this one day, he spots a body floating in the bay. He calls 911. And it turns out that this half-naked woman in the bay is Choo Choo. A half-naked woman. A passerby happens to see the naked body of a woman floating in the water. A cyclist who is on the trail all the time named Don Savant tells us, quote, I'm surprised to find that kind of thing here. He's talking about Choo Choo's naked body. Very sad, terrible to have it happen anywhere.

I guess we all think that when a crime happens in our world, in our neighborhood, in our backyard. It's my understanding to Drew Nelson that the Santa Clara County Sheriff's dive team then took to the waters. Is that right, Drew? They recovered the body there. That was San Francisco Bay. That's in Sunnyvale, Santa Clara County. And that is just down the way

from Mountain View, where she was reported missing by her boyfriend. Now, I want to look at the timeline here, Joe Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott Morgan, joining me, forensic expert, death investigator, and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott, I want to look at the timeline. He, the boyfriend, reports her missing that same day. He files a missing persons report with Mountain View Police. We don't know yet how Choo Choo's body ends up floating naked in the water. And police are trying to determine if foul play was involved. Well, let me tell you something, Joe Scott. If you study the book Methods and Assessment of Homicide and Suicide, you will know immediately that it is a cold day in H-E-double-L that a female is found that commits suicide naked. Now, I think it's instinctive, or maybe it's just ground

into us. Men don't care. They couldn't care less. Women are practically statistically never found dead by suicide naked. So let's just start with what we know. She was reported missing that day. I don't know how long she was missing when the boyfriend reported. Drew Nelson, do we know that yet? How long had she been missing? We do not know. We don't know.

That's what I thought. Okay. So Joe Scott, take it on. You know, first off, the most curious part to me is that it would seem at least interesting that, that she was reported missing within 24 hours of, of, uh, of not being seen, uh, well within that, that bracketed time period and, uh, by the boyfriend. And then back to this idea that she's unusual about that. Well, it just seems, it seems a bit strange, you know, that, that, uh, that she would,

she would be reported as missing a grown, in that short a period of time. We don't know anything about the familial or the family relationship dynamic. Did they actually live together? Did they live apart? Were they supposed to have a meeting with one another and she didn't show up? Had she been threatened? Was he worried? So all of these questions are still on the table

to be answered as of yet. And thus far, the authorities have not released much information that we can kind of plug in to peg a lot of this stuff down. And most importantly, the timeline, because that's critical in any case like this. Just thinking about what you're saying, are you trying in some way to implicate the boyfriend? No, no, not at all. Okay, good. Because he has not been named a suspect. Hold on. The boyfriend has not been named a suspect or a person of interest. There are a lot of scenarios to Dr. Tiffany Sanders, Chicago psychologist joining us here on Sirius XM 132. A lot of scenarios under which the boyfriend could be completely innocent.

I mean, I can think of one. He goes to work in the morning the whole day long. He doesn't hear from her. He goes out with his friends that night or goes to his family's home. He gets home late that night, hits the sack, and the next morning he realizes he hasn't heard from her. That's one scenario. Dr. Tiffany, I'm not ready to point the finger at anybody yet,

but are there scenarios, many of them, under which the boyfriend could not be implicated? You know, as I think about it, Nancy, it seems so logical that the boyfriend would be the one who be implicated? You know, as I think about it, Nancy, it seems so logical that the boyfriend would be the one who's implicated in this particular crime. The only situation where you would think not is that, like the previous guest was saying, if they had a dinner date, they had an outing to go to, a work event, and she was expected to go. But, you know, my gut instinct says that's not likely what could have happened. Maybe it was Choo Choo likely seeing somebody else. He found out.

He became upset, jealous, was enraged. We have to ask those questions and investigating and talking to her friends and family about the dynamics of their relationship is very, very important. So at this juncture, where does the case stand to Drew Nelson, Crime Stories investigative reporter? Where does it stand? The investigators are waiting on the toxicology report and the autopsy. There's no evidence to show that there is a crime here or that there isn't a crime here. There's no evidence to show that we know of that it was an accident or a suicide. So as far as we're waiting on the toxicology and autopsy to tell us if we'll ever know what happened.

A 23-year-old woman, a brilliant software engineer with Google, has been found dead naked in the San Francisco Bay waters. Joe Scott Morgan, if I were a betting person, which I'm not, I would bet this is no suicide, Joe Scott. Yeah, I wouldn't think that it would be either, Nancy. What strikes me is very peculiar about this case is the fact that she is somewhat undressed. I don't know to what degree. I've heard reports that range from partially nude to fully nude. And so, again, that's unclear. But we know that there is an absence of clothing. I, like you, have been to San Francisco and boy, is it a beautiful place. But the one thing I know about that San Francisco Bay is it is cold. It is very, very cold. And I

know that she just didn't, you know, stick her toe in the water and decide, well, I'm going to take off part of my clothes and just go for a swim. That's just not going to happen. Most people that go swimming out there or they engage in any kind of water sports, windsurfing or anything like that, are wearing wetsuits or dry suits out there because the water is so incredibly cold. So this is a very curious case. I'm also going to be very interested in seeing the autopsy report relative to what they find in her lungs. I want to know if there's any evidence if she was alive when she went into that water. We can determine, say for instance, maybe if she drowned. And if there's any kind of trauma to the body, things like that that are very minute,

like petechial hemorrhages in the eyes to give an indication that maybe there was some kind of asphyxiation that went on. So the jury is out and toxicology is going to be critical here, Nancy. If we're talking about a potential suicide, I want to know what level any drugs were in her system, alcohol, that sort of thing, anything that would have inhibited her ability to take care of herself in a way that if she fell into the water, that it was an unsurvivable event. But again, that brings us back to this idea. Why was she without clothing? Well, I'll tell you, the way I'm discussing this, just to put it out there, is, you know, with the backdrop of a very, very dear friend of mine, Bob Seafeld, who died in the San Francisco Bay waters, completely unexpected of suicide.

And nobody saw it coming. And every day since that happened, I guess that was back in about 2008, I beat myself up wondering what I could have done to maybe stop that from happening. So many times with suicide, you don't see it coming. So as I'm discussing the San Francisco Bay and a potential suicide, it does happen. And even those closest to you sometimes don't see it coming. I want to pause and thank our partners making today's program possible. One of our partners that I just love is Super Beats. When my son first heard I was involved with Super Beats, he went, Mom, those are too costy.

They're $400. He thought I was talking about this really expensive set of earphones. He's all about earphones. Super Beats, B-E-A-T-S. I'm like I could, you know, run with them all day. But fatigue gets in the way even for everyday activities. I mean, if you're up at 530 every morning like I am by about four o'clock, you're dragging. It seems to get worse every year. And this is why when you're 20, your body has a natural ability to maintain healthy circulation by age 40. Now, don't blow it, Dr. Brian Russell, but the twins think I'm 11 and a half. Don't mess it up. By the time you're 40, that ability has decreased by half, and it leaves you feeling tired. What can you do to get that circulation back and fight fatigue?

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or go to nancysbeets.com. N-A-N-C-Y-S-B-E-E-T-S, nancysbeets.com. Catch this. With a first order, you get another free, free 30-day supply of Super Beats, plus these indicator strips to see how Super Beats are working for you, plus free shipping. You're not going to get that at the pharmacy. You're not going to get that at your health food store. No. 800-516-0683 or go to nancysbeats.com today. In fact, I need to drink about a gallon right now because I need energy. And now on Crime Stories. Your Honor, on August 19th, 2017, the defendant lured Savannah LaFontaine Graywind, who was eight months pregnant, up to her apartment as a part of a conspiracy to murder Savannah and steal her unborn baby. Savannah's body was found in the Red River on

August 27, 2017. The baby was not with her. Soda woman ends up where you would never expect, in court. On claims she kidnaps and murders her pregnant neighbor before slicing the neighbor open to steal her baby and pass it off on her as her own. Now, I'll tell you, Joe Scott, Drew, Tiffany, Jackie, Alan, one of the first times this came to the forefront of the public consciousness was during the Scott Peterson case. That was one of the crazy outlandish theories that Mark Geragos, God rest his soul, came up with to explain how somebody, not really sure who, other than Scott Peterson, murdered Lacey. That they must have kidnapped her to cut baby Connor out of her tummy. I didn't bite them because it's such a heinous thought. Since that time, let's give the devil his due, more and more cases have emerged. So, Garagos actually had a viable theory. Of course,

it wasn't true, but still, he had a viable theory. I want to go out to Drew Nelson, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What can you tell me about Brooke Cruz and the grisly murder of her friend Savannah Graywind? Let's start with the discovery of Graywind's body. Savannah Graywind's body was found in the Red River. That was on the 27th of August. Some kayakers were in the river and they found this body wrapped in plastic. Oh, my goodness. Well, that certainly rules out any kind of an accident. Go ahead. And after that, the investigation led back to her friend, as you were saying, this woman, Brooke Cruz.

That was the last person that she was that Savannah was seen with. Brooke Cruz, 38 years old. They were friends, and the last person who saw her alive was Brooke Cruz. They were just walking into her apartment, and that's the last we know about Savannah. Well, that's a perfect place to start an investigation, the last known whereabouts and who you were with at the time you disappear. Savannah Graywin was a full eight months pregnant when she disappeared. Not long after, about eight days later, two kayakers discover the mother-to-be's body, as Drew Nelson tells us, wrapped in plastic in a river, missing her baby. The baby was no longer in her body, and she had not given birth through a normal vaginal delivery.

So, Joe Scott, right there, where do cops go? Well, the first thing they're going to look at is all of the physical evidence that remains in a particular case like this. A starting point is going to be the body. The evidence that's left behind as a result of the trauma that this woman would have had to have endured. Now, just as you pointed out, the body is absent the baby. Savannah is absent the baby savannah's savannah's uh is absent this baby the baby has obviously been and this is very grisly nancy has obviously been removed um in some kind of um uh attempt to surgically extract the baby which apparently they did and And then after this, after this, the body is wrapped in plastic,

tied off with duct tape and placed into the river. And, you know, lots of times people do this for, for two points, for two reasons. First, in a moving body of water to get the body as far away from the initial point of where this occurred. And secondly, they submerge bodies in water to try to get rid of evidence. So we have to be very, very careful in cases like this. The plastic, the duct tape is going to be essential when they is what method did they use to essentially remove this baby. And it's really interesting, Nancy, they're going to actually, when the body is brought into the morgue, they're going to want to take a look at the body and say, what level of

skill, what level of skill did the individual possess that removed this baby from this mother you know i was saying that the baby was gone the mom's body found wrapped in plastic weighted down at a river by two kayakers and you don't have to worry or try to determine at autopsy, was it a normal vaginal delivery because her stomach had been sliced open. Dr. Tiffany Sanders, Chicago psychologist, I need to shrink in a big way right now. Who could do such a heinous thing? Wow. Yeah, Nancy, when I read the story details, I was appalled and just absolutely disgusted at the fact that this woman would lure this 22-year-old beautiful young mom to be

and the desperation that that woman must have had. She must have been so desperate and not able to see that this was heinous to rip a young baby from the mother's womb before it was even time for that baby to be born or delivered. It's just appalling. But Nancy, I have to point out that the fertility world is a very much pressure field world. So here she is, 38 years old, the perpetrator, and she's probably looking at her body as it ages and her inability to conceive on her own. And searching and trying to find ways to conceive. And she looks and says, hey, there's this young lady. I can just take her baby.

Why not just adopt? Why not put yourself in a position where you seek out fertility treatment? Why steal someone else's baby? And it's appalling, and you just can't wrap your mind around it. Take a listen to what police say after kayakers make this horrific discovery. Good evening, everybody. I'm Chief Dave Todd with the Fargo Police Department, and this is Sheriff Bill Berquist with the Clay County Sheriff's Department.

At about 5.44 this evening, kayakers in the river discovered what appeared to be a life or a body sized object wrapped in plastic in the river hung up on a log. The kayakers notified law enforcement and also coincidentally at the same time a search party was searching a farmstead right down this road by the bridge. There are some suspicious items in that farmstead that lead us to believe that that may be a crime scene. The body was pulled out of the river by law enforcement at about 8.20 this evening. And at about 9.20, that body was identified as Savannah Graywin will be brought I believe to the Ramsey Ramsey County examiner and the family has been notified you know just when you think you've seen it all Joseph Scott Morgan a forensics expert

you and I have handled so many homicides I can't count them. It's hard for people that are not in the crime world. God bless them. You know, if I did not feel a duty to fight crime, I would love to do something else like my original dream of being a Shakespearean professor. But Joe Scott Morgan, when you're in this world, you see one horrific crime after the next, after the next. And every time I think, I don't, I've never seen anything like it in my life. But I got to tell you, Joseph Scott Morgan, finding a young mom's body dead, wrapped in plastic. And then you unwrap that plastic and find her sliced from her chest to her pubic area. That's how you find the body.

I mean, that's one of the worst things I've ever heard. I've got to say, Joe Scott. Yeah, it ranks right up there for me as well, Nancy. And let's just go back for a second and think about what this young mother-to-be would have endured. Because to the best of my knowledge, there's no anesthesia applied here. As Dr. Tiffany had pointed out, this young mother-to-be was not ready to give birth yet. She's only eight months along at this point. So, and the thing about it is they have to keep her alive long enough so that the child remains

viable. And that begs the question, I think this is going to come in court. And I know that you being the prosecutor that you are, you would really make a point of this. This woman suffered as they took some type of edged weapon and sliced her body open and then sliced her womb open to get access to this body. And all the while, she's there in terror. She's not just fearing for her life and the pain that she's having to go through, but also what is going to happen to this precious life that is inside of my body. Now, I want to go to Brooke Cruz, mid-30s, who ends up in court. This is Savannah's friend, her next door neighbor. I mean, ends up in court pleading guilty. So that means there's no question that she did this. She is saying under oath she is guilty of this grisly murder of 22-year-old Savannah Graywind.

Interesting, her boyfriend is pleading not guilty. I think I smell state's testimony in the works. But listen to what happened in court. Your Honor, on August 19, 2017, the defendant lured Savannah LaFontaine Graywind, who was eight months pregnant, up to her apartment as a part of a conspiracy to murder Savannah and steal her unborn baby. Savannah's body was found in the Red River on August 27, 2017. The baby was not with her. The count won conspiracy to commit murder. How do you plead? Guilty, Your Honor. And if the court

sentences you to a sentence greater than you anticipated, you will not be allowed to withdraw your plea. Do you understand that? I understand, Your Honor. Now take a listen to this defendant, Brooke Cruz, who is facing life in prison after pleading guilty. Listen to what her sister says. WDAY6 reporter Amy Unruh tells us about Brooke Cruz' past and how family learned about the charges against their loved one. Amy? We spoke with Dawn Dyer, one of Brooke Cruz's older sisters who lives in North Carolina now. She said after reading about this crime online, she noticed a big change in who she remembers as her sibling. She just don't look the same. She looks like her soul is gone. But even with her change in appearance, Dyer says she never thought her sister would be capable of such a vicious act. She described

Cruz in her younger years as free and caring, even though she was abused and had a criminal father. Dyer says through the years, they grew apart, but she wishes she would have been able to notice her sister's need for mental health help to possibly keep this from happening. We really, really are sorry for their loss and I don't wish it upon anyone. And maybe my sister, you know, is like mentally gone. Now Dyer also said she knew Cruz had three or four children, but just learned this week she has seven kids. So to Dr. Tiffany Sanders, Chicago psychologist, how do you live without the rest of your life behind bars? I mean, I guess if you're vicious enough to do the crime, it really doesn't bother you that much. Well, it should bother her because she's going to have plenty of time to think about

what she did and how she pretty much ruined her life, her boyfriend's life, and the lives of this beautiful young child who was just born and snatched away from her mother. And Nancy, you want to think about what was the psyche behind it? Was she that blinded by her own sense of greed and selfishness that she would cause that amount of immense pain. She had to literally block out the screams, the tears, the agony that that young girl was going in. It's truly unimaginable. So I hope she has many, many years behind bars to suffer from her own PTSD, reminded from that imagery over and over and over again,

because that was just unnecessary. As we await the sentencing of this perpetrator who was pled guilty under oath, Brooke Cruz, mid-30s, who has admitted that she murdered her neighbor, her friend, slicing her body open to steal her baby. The baby is alive, by the way. The baby was found in her apartment that she shares with her live-in boyfriend. So not a whole lot of questioning there. I think at first they tried to say that she had dropped the baby off to babysit the baby or some story like that. Well, that's ridiculous. But I'm just keeping my eye on the live-in boyfriend, William Hone, age 32, who has pled not guilty. Okay? His trial is coming up.

And I've got a pretty good idea who's going to be a state's witness against him. Brooke Cruz. I want to pause very quickly and thank our partner making our program today possible. If you're like everybody else, you probably haven't said no very much to sugary sweets during the holiday season. But that is exactly why you need to schedule an appointment with an awesome dentist you can find at 1-800-DENTIST. Now this is what I like about them. They can deal with your specific needs. Like I've got two 10-year-old children. I need a pediatric dentist. My mom lives with us now since my dad passed away.

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1-800-DENTIST.COM slash C-E-R-E-C. 1-800-DENTIST. Thank you for helping us have a beautiful smile. Have you ever seen somebody that won't smile or hold something up in front of their teeth because they're embarrassed? Don't do that. Call 1-800-DENTIST. Thanks for being our partner today, 1-800-DENTIST. Alan, you've got a question? Yes, Nancy. As I listen to this discussion, it makes me ask, how can a baby survive being cut out of its mother's womb by a criminal who is not medically trained? Cesarean births in a hospital are not simple by a doctor.

And if the mother's already dead, could the baby still be alive? Does the cutting have to happen while the mother is alive? That's a horrible thing to imagine. So I've called our expert, Dr. William Maroney, to find out. Dr. Maroney, we have a case where a woman has admitted to cutting a baby out of an eight-month pregnant woman, and the baby survived, and the baby is doing fine right now. How does this happen? Childbirth, cesareanan is not a simple thing. Was this just pure luck or is this something

that actually happens and a baby can survive? Well, the baby can survive, but you always have to ask about the mother's health. Babies are extremely resilient and delivering the birth of a baby through cesarean process really puts about 99% of the trauma and the laceration and the blood pressure risk and the infection all on the mother. In order to do this in a hospital, a woman needs anesthesia and professionals. To do it outside of the hospital, she would have to have been drugged or beaten and tied down or subdued or killed. And then you need five or six minutes to go through three muscle layers, the body cavity, and to carefully enter the side of the uterus. Based on the size of the baby, it's really clear where you need to cut.

But you have five or six minutes to get that baby out before the baby becomes anoxic. The mother takes all the trauma. Well, in this case, the mother was found dead later by kayakers in a river wrapped up in plastic and taped up. So we kind of know the route that this woman took. She would have wanted to keep the woman alive while she cut the baby out. Is that right? If you directly contribute to the death of the mother, you have five minutes, plus or minus, to get that baby out before it gets anoxic. Without oxygen, that baby will die and have brain death. So what possibly would have happened was the mother was bound up, tied, you think,

subdued, knocked out or whatever before this happened. And then apparently without drugs or any kind of medical instruments, the child was just cut out, as you say, through three layers of muscle. Three layers of muscle, a body cavity, and then cut open the uterus. Cutting open a uterus would be very similar to cutting open a pumpkin or a large watermelon. I don't know if you Google this and find out how you're going to do it, but if you've got a plan to steal your neighbor's baby in that brutal fashion, I guess you either have to know what you're doing or get kind of lucky, I suppose. Because I wouldn't think it would be an obvious thing to know how to do.

No, it wouldn't. And that's where you put the life of the baby at risk after you get it out by not having proper postpartum care. But how you'd actually do it would be in a textbook online or in a library for midwives or OBGYN doctors. And the bottom line on this is she really didn't care about the mother. That makes a lot of sense because when you go in the hospital, it's the care of the mother that's the primary concern. And postpartum care of the mother and the baby are what professionals are trained for. Once you consider the mother to be a crime victim and disposable, this is very dark, but it can be done. And it is done. I mean, this case we're talking about right now is not the only time it's been done, and it's not just

something we see in the movies. No. In the last decade that we've been on true crime stories in the network, we've seen this a handful of times. This happens often. But of course, how do you explain the baby? And in this case, the woman and her boyfriend have been arrested. The body was found. The baby recovered alive and now is safe with the father. But if one thing had gone wrong, this baby would not be with us. It's very clear that there's some twisted pathology behind the person doing this. This is severe mental illness and it causes literally the murder of another person. But there's no way to explain this, and we just hope she gets her justice in the system. But the knowledge to do this is in textbooks and on the internet, and it means total disregard for the life of another person. And now let's listen to

a news conference from back in August, August 25th. That was six days after Savannah disappeared before she was found dead. Fargo, North Dakota, Police Chief David Todd tells reporters about making two arrests. In regard to the Savannah Marie Graywind missing persons case, As I stated before, we've dedicated a lot of attention to this case, but until Wednesday, we had not yet established a criminal nexus to this case that would allow us to obtain warrants for our residence and electronic devices. We were running constant surveillance and investigating several different theories regarding Savannah being held against her will and or her unborn child being induced or removed and possibly alive. Therefore we were careful about what we were saying

or releasing in fear that a suspect or suspects may panic and dispose of them in order to get rid of incriminating evidence. We were hoping the surveillance would produce a result of the possible suspects leading us to where Savannah or her baby were. We were able to develop a criminal nexus on Wednesday, allowing us to put together warrants and a coordinated plan to take William Henry Hone and Brooke Lynn Cruz into custody yesterday at two separate locations and secure apartment number five at 2825 9th Street North for a forensic search pursuant to the search warrant we had obtained.

The search was conducted by a specialized forensics team. As I said yesterday in my release, our entry and search found a newborn baby girl in apartment number 5 at 2825 9th Street North with Brooke Lynn Cruz. The baby girl was transported by ambulance to a medical facility where she is currently being cared for. Detective interviews with Hones and Cruz indicate the baby girl is Savannah's baby. We are doing DNA testing to confirm the identity of the baby.

However, testing and results can take several days. In the interviews, when it comes to the topic of what happened to Savannah, neither Hone nor Cruz will cooperate with our investigation. Both Hone and Cruz invoked their right to counsel and refused to answer any more questions. At that point, we arrested both of them and charged them with Class A felony, conspiracy to commit kidnapping.

38-year-old Brooke Lynn Cruz, after that guilty plea to conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, providing false information to police, is set to be sentenced in January, January 16th, if her pre-sentencing report is completed. She could get a maximum for the conspiracy to commit murder charge, life in prison without parole, the maximum penalty for the conspiracy to commit murder charge. Life in prison without parole. The maximum penalty for the conspiracy to commit kidnapping. 20 years in prison, a fine of $20,000. And there is a trial coming up unless William Henry Hahn, 32, pleads guilty. He faces the same charges as his girlfriend.

He has pleaded not guilty so far. A trial is set in Cass County District Court to begin March 20th. I want to thank one other partner who is making our program possible, and it is Link AKC. If you're like me, you don't want to leave your pet out of all the fun this Christmas, and here's this year's quote must-have gift for dogs and their owners.'s the link akc smart collar it's the back that by the american kennel club it's a gps locator a fitness activity tracker and it's all controlled through your smartphone it even has an led light and temperature sensor not that i think your dog is going to need an led light or temperature sensor i I love the GPS locator and I'll tell you why. I don't have to

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It's the perfect gift for you and your dog. And right now, 30% off and free shipping on your order if you use code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y, at linkakc.com. Link A-K-C, alpha, kappa, C as in cat. Linkakc.com, code Nancy, for 30% off and free shipping. Linkakc.com, code Nancy. Thank you for being our partner today. Thank you to my guests, but especially you for being our partner today.

Thank you to my guests, but especially you for being with us. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an I Heart podcast.