Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FEMALE KILLER DEATH BY NEEDLE after slitting pregnant mommy open to steal baby

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

The first woman to be executed by the federal government in 67 years died overnight. Lisa Montgomery, 52, died early Wednesday morning by lethal injection. She was sentenced to death for murdering a pregnant woman and cutting the baby from her body. The baby survived.Joining Nancy Grace today: Ashley Wilcott - Judge and trial attorney, anchor at Court TV, www.ashleywillcott.com   Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Prof of Behavioral Medicine at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine  www.drjeffgardere.com, Author: 'The Causes of Autism” @drjeffgardere    Robert Crispin - Private Investigator “Crispin Special Investigations”  www.crispinsinvestigations.com  Percy Pitzer - Retired Federal Warden 30-year career in Corrections, Founder 'Creative Corrections Education Foundation', www.ccefscholarships.org   Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network  Ray Caputo - Lead News Anchor for Orlando's Morning News, 96.5 WDBO   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Breaking news now. In the last hours, the so- federal prisoner executed in 67 years. First female executed since 1953. Becky calls her daughter's home and cell phones. There is no answer. Becky got off work and she went to the house to look for her daughter. And found Bobby on the floor. She immediately called 911. Becky Harper sees her child sprawled out on the wood grain floor.

Blood all over the room. Basically, her inner is exposed. She's lifeless. That is why the death penalty was carried out on a female federal prisoner for the first time in 67 years. Because it wasn't just Bobby Jo Stennett dead in the floor, covered in massive amounts of blood. Her baby, her fetus, her infant had been ripped out of her stomach while she's alive to take the baby. Have you ever heard of more heinous, aggravating circumstances surrounding a murder, which is one of the requirements in order to grant the death penalty. With me, an all-star panel judge, trial lawyer, anchor, court TV,

Ashley Wilcott at AshleyWilcott.com, Dr. Jeff Gardier, renowned board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Touro College of Medicine, at drjeffgardier.com, and author of The Causes of Autism, Robert Crispin, former cop, now PI, with his own investigation firm, crispininvestigations.com, Percy Pitzer, from the Federal Warden, 30-year career in corrections, founder of Creative Corrections Education Foundation. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Joseph Scott Morgan, but first to lead news anchor WDBO, Ray Caputo. Ray Caputo, Lisa Montgomery, put to death after multiple stays of execution.

Many people thought it would not happen. What time, where, what are the circumstances surrounding her execution? Nancy, it happened overnight. I think there was two times that the execution was stopped. One because of COVID and the other one had to do with people arguing that she just wasn't mentally fit to be executed. But lo and behold, it happened overnight. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of people that aren't shedding any tears for this woman. Percy Pitzer, former federal warden, 30-year career in corrections at ccefscholarships.org.

Percy, thank you for being with us. You know, I've always noticed that the execution time is typically set at 12.01. Why is that? Well, I would think it's because the earlier in the day, probably all the appeals are done. And i think in this particular one the supreme court even uh got into it and just to get it over with well you're you're right and that the appellate process must uh be complete before an execution can take place 1201 a.m i might add guys this woman, the first female executed in 67 years to get the death penalty in our country. And there's a reason for it. You earlier heard the Kathleen Garrett TV show Law Solved. Take a listen to this.

3.43 p.m. Sheriff Ben Espy arrives at Bobby Joe Stinnett's house and immediately takes over cpr from bobby joe's distraught mother becky harper once you start cpr you continue cpr until they're taken to a hospital it was pretty apparent that there had been a violent struggle in the room where this occurred there was blood everywhere on the room spattered all all over the floor, the walls. It was an awful mess. There was just a massive amount of smeared blood in that room, probably an unused bedroom area. There were some puppy cages because Bobby Joe raised and sold rat terrier dogs.

Bobby Joe was laying on her back in the middle of the room with blood scattered all over the wooden floor, and her stomach was exposed. Guys, we are talking about the first woman executed in the country in 67 years. Her name, Lisa Montgomery, in the death of Bobby Joe Stennett and a bizarre and grisly death it was. Straight out to Professor Forensic, Jacksonville State University and author Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what type of bleeding? Everybody that saw this scene, the victim's mother to be the first, I might add, was just overwhelmed at the amount of blood, the grisly nature of the scene.

Why? Well, Nancy, the reason you're going to have all of this, this huge volume of blood is this is equivalent almost to if you if you think of a disembowelment. And, you know, as earlier stated, her bowels were actually visible, and you make this abdominal incision. I would imagine in this particular case, this is not done obviously in a sterile surgical environment. This is done crudely with someone who is probably very unskilled at it. And when you do this and you introduce the sharp instrument into this pristine abdominal environment, you're not only going through the outer shell of the body,

the skin and the subcutaneous fat, you're also probably nicking the bowel. And our bowels have a tremendous amount of blood vessel supply. Then on top of that, you're going to get into the uterus as well, which has a huge vascular supply as well. So you've doubled this. So you've got all of this blood that's pouring out. This is also going to be commingled with the fluid from the amniotic sac. It's going to be a very grisly, grisly scene, Nancy. Is it possible, Joe Scott Morgan, statistically, for a case like this, in a case like this, for the baby to live? It's difficult because you don't know what the level of care that's going to be applied to the child.

I mean, can the baby live? For instance, what if they kill the mother first before they cut the baby out? Well, yeah. But it would have to be very, very quick, Nancy, because what you're talking about is something that's referred to as cellular respiration. And the mother is actually supplying.

Joe Scott, Joe Scott, Joe Scott. How many times do I have to tell you to talk in regular people talk? You know, break it down for me. I'm just a JD, not an MD. This is what I'm saying. Mama is literally supplying, supplying life to this baby. And outside of the womb, it's very difficult for the baby to survive. And if the mother is deceased, it would have to be a matter of minutes.

And I mean, minutes quickly. Minutes or seconds? Because once the mother is killed, how long until the baby dies in uterus? The baby is going to indwell the uterus living, I would say, up to four to five minutes after the mother is deceased. If in, she was deceased at this particular time, there's been some indication that this person may very well have strangled the mother. But we don't know how valid that is. And, of course, that's something that would have to be determined at autopsy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace for those of you just joining us breaking news many people crime watchers legal eagles like myself wake up this morning and find out that the execution of lisa montgomery has occurred the first female prisoner put to death with a death penalty in our country

in 67 years. This may be why. Take a listen to our friend Kathleen Garrett. I told the paramedic, her mother's here. Her mother says that she's eight months pregnant. And the paramedic says, Ben, there's no baby here. Here's the umbilical cord. It's been cut. You're going to have to look for a baby. Bobby Joe's abdomen is sliced open in what appears to be a crude cesarean section. It was jagged. It was in the lower abdomen. You could see where the knife had started and stopped and would start again,

eventually making this large, large opening. It just wasn't like a surgical doctor would do. This was a pretty rough-looking cut. It appeared to be from somebody that was very inexperienced with delivering a child. Despite valiant efforts to save her, Bobby Joe dies en route to the hospital. But doctors say the missing baby may still be alive and in urgent need of medical attention. You are hearing our friend Kathleen Garrett at TV show Solved

to longtime colleague and renowned psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Truro, Dr. Jeff Gardier. Dr. Jeff, you know, you and I go back a long way analyzing cases. Very often we disagree, but you've got to agree that whoever did this, they're not crazy. This had to be thought out. This was well planned. And they managed to abscond and evade police with not only getting away from a murder scene, but taking the baby. They knew enough to, as you heard, cut the umbilical cord.

This is no idiot. This is not some crazed person. And what I'm working up to, Jeff, is when you and I were covering the Scott Peterson case, one of the zany theories, sorry, I thought at the time that the defense came up with after trying out multiple defense theories was that somebody kidnapped Lacey in order to get her baby. And of course, the physical evidence disproved that because the baby was still in her uterus when Lacey was put into the San Francisco Bay. We know that. So Dr. Jeff Gardier, at the time, we poo-pooed it. Because who would do that? Well, I'll tell you who would do

that. Lisa Montgomery. What kind of a mindset is that? you want a baby so badly, you will not only commit murder, but in this gruesome, grisly manner. Well, at some point, Nancy, her defense attorneys asserted that she may have been psychotic when this was going on. We know in something so heinous to do something like this, certainly there is some mental instability. So the question really does become, and to keep it concise, of course, how disturbed was this woman emotionally? Was she psychotic at the time? All of that still tells us this was a completely heinous crime. And again, her attorneys are saying that she had a lifetime of abuse. But there were victims here, the baby and the mother.

And that's what has to be accounted for. Dr. Jeff Gardier, you know, you're the shrink, not me. But let me just stop you in your tracks, Dr. Jeff, because you're telling me that this killer, Lisa Montgomery, went psychotic. And then once she committed the murder and got the baby, cut the umbilical cord, then the psychosis suddenly ended. Is this like a temporary psychosis that only lasted long enough for her to commit the murder? Because I'm as a layperson, I'm just a trial lawyer. I'm having a really hard time swallowing that theory. As as I am, Nancy, as I said, this is what the law is. You haven't totally lost your mind. This is this is what her attorneys put up as her defense that she may have been psychotic at the time. I don't doubt

that this is a woman to do something so completely heinous, so completely crazy that it was not psychotic, but it was crazy and may have been based on a lifetime of abuse. But as I said, there were real victims of this crime. Guys, take a listen to our friend Kathleen Garrett at Solved. The doctor said, Sheriff, you're running out of time. You're going to have to find this child very fast. A search of the residence, as well as the neighboring area, was conducted, and the unborn child had not been found. The only information initially obtained during the neighborhood canvas was that a small red car had been seen at the residence earlier in the afternoon. We sealed off a big portion of Skidmore.

I had a lot of volunteers looking in dumpsters, looking in the river, looking everywhere possible. There could have been a baby that would have been tossed away. As the pressure mounts and the case grows more complicated, the sheriff calls for help. It was determined very early on that more investigative officers were needed in this investigation. I suggested to the sheriff that we activate the initial response team of the Northwest Major Case Squad. So the search is on, is the baby alive? Now, why this case, as opposed to all other cases, did the defendant, Lisa Montgomery, get the death penalty?

Which, let me refresh you, is a lethal injection in this jurisdiction that consists of three different medicines. One is, of course, potassium chloride that stops the heart. The other is midazoline, which is a sedative. And the third one is the percurionium bromide, which causes muscle paralysis, including your heart. That has just happened in the last hours in the case of the first woman executed in the U.S. under the death penalty in 67 years.

Lisa Montgomery and the death of Bobby Joe Stinnett. Now, I'm going to go to Ashley Wilcott, Court TV anchor, judge and trial lawyer. But first, listen to this from Solved. At 7.18 p.m., four hours after the 911 call, a forensic team begins a detailed sweep of the crime scene. It is the bloodiest one they have ever seen. Sergeant Dave Merrill, the highway patrol, started telling me investigators from Nottoway County had contacted him to borrow additional luminol to spray for blood. Luminol is the chemical used to highlight blood and blood spatter. They wanted a quart or something, as much as they possibly could. That would be an exceptional amount of luminol used on a crime scene.

There was a lot of blood that was lost. There was slippage. You could see where they'd slipped on the floor and they had wrassled around. And there were clots of blood the size of pop cans scattered around the room. The blood samples are rushed to the lab for DNA analysis. Bobby Joe's computer is sent to a computer forensic lab in Kansas City. But the crime scene yields few other clues. Right there, Ashley Wilcott.

I would hammer that, hammer that, hammer that to a jury. Why? Because now we know that the victim in this case, eight months pregnant, Bobby Joe Stinnett, trying to save her baby, fought for her life. She was killed when her tummy was ripped ripped open that means she was alive when the attack occurred on her stomach can you imagine that ashley no no no nobody can imagine that no normal person no average person no rational person can imagine that someone had planned this had to have been planned you don't just pick a victim and say, oh, look, they happen to be pregnant. Maybe I'll go steal their baby.

This is planned. I want a baby. I don't care the suffering I impose on the eight-month pregnant woman. I don't care the pain that she's in. The aggravated circumstances cause this and crime upon crime. Not only does she murder the mother,

not only does she cut the fetus from the mother's belly while the mother's likely alive, not only does she take the baby, all of these things, aggravated circumstances, amount to a death penalty sentence. Crime, period. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, the first execution of a female on death row in 67 years has gone down in the early morning hours. It was about 1.30 a.m. when prison officials announced that this perp, Lisa Montgomery, was in fact executed and is dead. Take a listen to criminal pursuit. There was no sign of forced entry at the residence

indicating that whoever had committed the crime was possibly invited into the residence and there was not a murder weapon located in the residence. At the hospital, strands of long blonde hair are found clutched in Bobbie Jo's hands. There were paper bags over her hands and one of the nurses told me that they'd seen hair strands in her hands when she'd come in. The cuts and ligature marks on Bobbie Jo's body suggest she put up a desperate struggle to protect her baby. The victim had cut marks, knife wounds on her fingers.

Those are commonly called defensive wounds, where she was trying to ward off the knife, and she was grabbing at the knife and cutting her own fingers. The feet were completely covered in blood, and as you could see, the blood had come up between the toes, which told me that she had tried to stand and maybe had stood, got her feet flat on the floor. Can you even imagine at, late into my pregnancy with the twins, I was in a wheelchair. I would

have to be carried in a wheelchair from the makeup room all the way to the set, get in the chair, perform our program, deliver our program, get back in the wheelchair and come home. And this woman is slipping in blood all over the floor, fighting to save her baby. We also learned that there were ligature marks on her neck. Straight out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. What does it all mean? Well, it means that there was an awareness there. Remember what the investigator just mentioned just a second ago that she actually had an awareness by whom on the part of the victim on Bobby Joe.

She was fully aware and cognizant of the fact that her life was in danger and the life of her unborn child was in danger. She had these defensive marks, these cuts on her hands, and rightly said by him, this idea that you're trying to bend these slices off, and that's what happened. Also, to a point that I'd made earlier, Nancy, there is evidence that, and I guess in a last-ditch effort maybe, she attempted to strangle this poor woman because they stated that there were actually ligature marks around her neck, and that, I think that probably going forward, you know how frenzied this whole event is where she changes from actually attempting to cut this woman open while she is alive, mind you, to this idea that she attempted to strangle her as well. I think the big key here is to try to find out at what point in time these events occurred. Was she actually dead?

Was she actually dead at the moment in time in which her abdomen was finally sliced open? Now to Robert Crispin, CrispinInvestigations.com, former cop, now investigator. Where do the police start? What do they do now? Well, Nancy, I'll tell you from being on several homicide scenes and walking into some pretty brutal, brutal scenes. One thing that was importantly said is she probably knew her perpetrator. The crime occurred inside the house. So me as an investigator looking past all the blood, past all the carnage, to me says, I think this victim knew who killed her. So in this particular case, Montgomery led police

right to her unbeknownst through a digital footprint. Yeah, we just heard that you're dead on Robert Crispin. Robert, joining us from Crispin's investigations, explain Ray Caputo joining me, lead anchor WDBO. How, as Crispin just said, did Lisa Montgomery just put to death in the last hours? Lead cops right to her. Well, there was a digital trail. The two actually met at a dog show and they were conversing online. So, you know, between that and all the pieces, all these breadcrumbs per se were left out that it didn't take police terribly long to track her down in Kansas. Now, she wasn't close by where this happened. She was hours and hours away, but that digital trail brought police right to her doorstep. It really did. Jackie, let's cut to our cut

eight. This is Kathleen Garrett on the TV show Solved. We wanted the exact web address of the Breeders Board, which I gave him. And I spelled out Darlene Fisher and also her email address, which was Fisher for Kids, which I thought was rather odd because it sounded like she was fishing for a kid or a child. I told them that the IP address appeared under every post and that I could give them the IP address. IP addresses is key information because there's only one computer and if we can trace that

computer as soon as we had that, I thought if this baby's alive and Darlene Fisher is the one who took it, we can find her because we'll have her computer. Owen quickly traces the IP address to Darlene Fisher's internet provider. I was able to determine it was assigned to Quest Communications out of Virginia. I passed that information on to Special Agent Lopanovich, and he called me later, and he had Quest Communications on the phone. I explained to them the nature of the situation, that you had a murdered woman, the fetus had been cut from her, and they thought that the baby would be viable. And that this was an emergency, and we would provide them with paperwork, search warrant, grand jury subpoena, down the road. And so they were very cooperative. Well, there you hear it. And before I get into the forensic nature of finding an IP address, FYI, your computer, your laptop, your iPad, everyone has a unique IP internet provider address. It's like a fingerprint.

So if you think you're getting away with something online, you're not. To Dr. Jeff Gardier, our renowned psychologist joining us. Dr. Gardier, I find this very interesting, but you probably have a better grasp of what it means. The screen names people pick. I have one screen name, my first one ever on AOL.com that's based on my favorite Shakespearean character. And anybody that knows me would know what it was.

So what does it mean that she has Fisher for kids like she's trying to find a child? That's exactly what it is. And so people sometimes use the screen names to bring the best of themselves out that they wish that they could live up to and actually surpass. As Nancy, I know you dark secret, what is the heinous perhaps behavior that they're looking to engage in. And so that's how we know that where there is smoke, there's fire. Do you think it's how they want to be perceived, the screen name? I think that any, and you know this too anyone who

engages in these types of crime are screaming out for help they may not be psychotic but certainly there is a mental instability to doing something like this so they start throwing out those bread crumbs even before they commit that particular. So right. Hey, Dr. Gardner, do you remember when you and I covered the allergist that killed his wife and his screen name was Casual Guy 2000? He was married with children, but his screen name was Casual Guy because he was looking for casual sex anthony weiner who uh was convicted remember his name was carlos danger and he was convicted of various sex issues that's right online to put it euphemistically so your screen name tells a lot. And this part, Lisa Montgomery just put to death screen name Fisher for kids.

She did a lot more than fish for children. According to prosecutors, she ripped a baby out of a living mom's stomach. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Thanks again for being with us. Many times I would have a hard time telling jurors facts because they could be very distasteful, almost intolerable. But the reality is you have to know the full truth and we have to know why this woman was put to death just hours ago straight back out to you ray caputo lead news anchor wdbo how did lisa montgomery lure the victim bobby joe stennett into meeting well it's through their love of dogs they had initially met in a car uh the show, and they had conversed, I believe it was like a forum for people who love dogs, so there was that connection. But also, Lisa Montgomery had lied to her victim and told her she was pregnant too. So, you know, between the pregnancy thing, which is a big deal in a woman's life, and then also their love for dogs they developed a rapport it allowed miss montgomery

to actually gain access to the victim's house so it's going to be really really hard ashley wilcott to argue any psychotic break uh that dr jeff gardier pointed out was used by the defense that she had a psychotic break for this tiny period of time during the murder when she had been laying the trap for days and days and days, luring the victim because they were both into dogs, claiming she also was pregnant. All the lies preceding the murder show premeditation. You can't plan a murder like this if you are insane, which in our country is, you don't know right from wrong at the time of the incident. You know, you just took all the words out of my mouth because I was just going to say, let's look at it strictly legally. And exactly what you said, Nancy, first of all, whether or not they understood right from wrong is specifically right at the time of the crime. Right. And so they may be rational before, rational after, but not right at the time.

But the way that the state proves uh-huh that doesn't fly that's not true in this case it was premeditated number one all of those steps finding someone getting to know them lying about also being pregnant finding things in common to get close to get access to their victim all of those things do show premeditation but remember Nancy at the time of the crime also I would suggest there's premeditation. But remember, Nancy, at the time of the crime, also, I would suggest there's premeditation because she went to the home. She found her. She specifically went to her with the intent to take the baby. That is not a psychotic break. That is all factual showing

she knew what she was doing. Straight back to special guest joining us, Percy Pitzer, federal warden for 30 years, career and corrections at ccefscholarships.org. Percy, again, thank you for being with us. Why do you believe so few women are put to death under our country's death penalty? Well, you know, I think it's it's something new i mean like you said 67 years since the females been executed and um you know people i think are more reluctant to execute

a female you know in the but why is my question uh probably politics and probably society. You know, there's been 11 executions in the last, what, 18 months. Yes, that's true. Nancy, many times we see that women who have committed these heinous crimes, certainly many of them come from very abused backgrounds. And therefore, since we do know that there are still prejudices and treating women as second class citizens, we tend to see that even though there are victims of and as we saw in this case, terrible victims of this particular crime, the crimes that many of these women commit, we see them as also being

victims who are acting out, who are abused. And that's one of the reasons that we see less women receiving capital punishment. So you're saying that many women that end up in jail, in prison, have had horrible backgrounds, such as being abused and so forth. Now, in my mind, that does not in any way negate the intent to murder this pregnant mom. And the very long scheme this woman, Lisa Montgomery, came up with, luring and lying to the victim to gain access to her home. Take a listen to our cut 15. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what was argued. And in a last ditch effort, Lisa Montgomery's sister comes out describing what she says was an abusive childhood. Listen.

I am here because I want people to understand the torture that my sister endured her whole life and that the people that had let her down over and over and over again. The community had really let her down. The state of Kansas had really let her down. From her mother who's supposed to love her and protect her, to a father who was supposed to be there and protect her and he abandoned her, to the police officer that she told that she was being raped and he drove her to her house and dropped her off and drove away to the judge that had heard from Judy, her mother, that her stepfather was raping her. And he had said, why didn't you report this? But then he did nothing. You are hearing the claims, last ditch effort, by the sister, Lisa Montgomery, claiming her sister should not be put to death because she was abused as a child. I hear that, and

it breaks my heart to hear anyone is abused as a child, but that in no way negates the intent to brutally murder this young woman. Trey Caputo, WDBO, what about the baby? The baby, Nancy, is now no longer a baby. It's a teenager. She's 16 years old and she lives with her father. And if there's any silver lining to this, it's that that child is grown up and she's still alive and she has her life ahead of her. So the baby is now doing well and is now a young teen. I don't want to negate the victim's life because so much focus has been on what the defendant did. This young woman fought for her life and to save her baby.

I can only imagine the terror going through her mind when she was attacked. Take a listen to our friends at KMBC 9, cut 13. It took the jury less than five hours to reach their verdict. Montgomery's eyes were downcast and she cried quietly as the judge read the decision death for lisa montgomery and a lifetime of pain for her victim's family this case has finally come to a close but we will never stop missing bobby joe she was a sweet and loving wife daughter and sister and would have been a wonderful mother. Becky Harper is the mom of 23-year-old Bobby Joe Stinnett, the grandmother of Victoria Jo. Becky found Bobby Jo's bloody and battered body in her Skidmore, Missouri home on December 16, 2004. Victoria Jo was recovered the next day

at the Melbourne, Kansas home of Lisa Montgomery. Montgomery said the baby was hers. It's a crime that's so vile, so shocking, and it was premeditated. You can hear the victim's mother hardly able to go on and speak following that jury verdict that handed down a death penalty. Remember, the defendant in this case drove about 170 miles from Melbourne, Kansas, to get to Missouri to murder the victim in this case and cut her baby out of her stomach. In the last hours, the first woman, 67 years, has been put to death in a federal facility in Terre Haute. God be with the victims and their families now. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.