Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Female novelist writes story about murdering hubby just arrested ...for murdering hubby!

Episode Date: September 14, 2018

An Oregon woman who wrote a novel called “The Wrong Husband” is now accused of killing her own husband of 27 years, who was found dead from a gunshot wound in June. Romance novelist Nancy Crampton-Brophy, 68, was charged with gunning down Daniel Brophy in a classroom at the culinary school he ran.  Nancy's expert guests include Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Atlanta prosecutor Kenya Johnson, Atlanta juvenile judge and lawyer Ashley Willcott, Fulton County, Georgia, medical examiner Dr. Jan Gorniak, and Crime Stories reporter Chuck Roberts. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not want to miss the new docuseries on oxygen. The true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi, who is burned alive, and the story of the man accused of the crime. Is the right man on trial? Who is he? Who is Jessica Chambers? And how does such a horrific crime occur? More questions than answers. This case captures the nation's headlines, takes over social media, and leaves a small town divided. This is a must-see TV event. Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers, premieres September 15th at 7, 6

Central, with new episodes every Saturday on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dan was one of the few people I've ever known who did exactly what he wanted in life and loved to live. Yeah, this is just the life. Students, colleagues, and loved ones gathered at the Oregon Culinary Institute tonight to remember beloved chef Dan Brophy.

He was shot and killed over the weekend. Police still don't know who killed him. Okay, I hope you're all sitting down. A woman, a very successful novelist, writes, how to murder your husband, just arrested for allegedly murdering her husband. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us what happened who what where when why I mean could she be that stupid a brilliant novelist to write about murdering her husband and then murder her husband

again I'm Nancy Grace this is Crime Stories thank you for being with us straight out to Chuck Roberts crimeonline.com investigative reporter, where you can find this and every other crime and justice story. Chuck, was she that dumb? What happened? I don't know.

She wrote not only that essay, How to Murder Your Husband, but she wrote The Wrong Hero, The Wrong Lover, and The Wrong Husband. So is she the right suspect? His body was found by students. Okay, wait, wait, wait, Chuck. As usual, you got me drinking from a fire hydrant here. She wrote, okay, just give me those titles one more time because I want to just let it marinate.

I've got with me a superstar lineup. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of L.A. Kenya Johnson, veteran felony prosecutor out of Atlanta, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, founder of childcrimewatch.com, and a new guest joining us, but not new to the crime business, Fulton County medical examiner, Dr. Jan Gorniak. Give me those names one more time, Chuck Roberts. Well, she authored a lot of romance suspense novels uh a lot of young uh virile heroes cut the chit chat cut the chit chat what are the names the wrong hero the wrong lover wrong hero wrong lover the wrong husband

wrong husband and in that in that book she wrote the, where there's a will, I intend to be in it. Oh, my goodness. I love that. I'm totally gonna have to steal that. Now, Chuck Roberts, before I so rudely interrupted you, what did you say about virile? You know what that means, right, Chuck? You're not just like reading it off of a blog, are you? Okay, what did you say about young virile what? Well, the male heroes in most of her romance novels were young studs. They were young, you know, virile males. Chuck, can I ask you, what exactly do you mean by a young stud? I'm interested.

What does that mean to you, Chuck? A young stud. I'm going by the image on her book covers. Oh, okay. I have not read her books. Actually. You know what? Let me go out to our new guest joining us, Fulton County Medical Examiner, Dr. Jan Gorniak. You know, Dr. Gorniak, it's a real pleasure to have you along with Ashley Kenya and Dr. Bethany. I remember spending, I'm sure they did not enjoy it, hours at the medical examiner's office

going through line by line, sometimes word by word, of a medical examiner's report, autopsy report, because I knew the jury would not understand what the doctor was saying because I certainly didn't understand it. So there's got to be at least one juror that doesn't. We would go through it line by line by line. In your opinion, Dr. Jan Gorniak, we hear what Chuck Roberts has just reported, wrong hero, wrong lover, specifically

wrong husband. In my mind, all that is icing on the cake. But the cake, the meat and potatoes are the medical examiner's report on the autopsy. Agree or disagree, doctor? I totally agree. But just remember our job as medical examiners, forensic pathologists is to determine cause and manner. So it's nice. Could you break that down, Dr. Gorniak, when you say to explain what's the difference between COD, cause of death, and MOD, manner of death? Okay. The cause of death is simply what's the last injury or illness that caused somebody to die. For example, gunshot wounds of the chest, stab wounds, drug overdose, pneumonia. And the manner of death comes from the investigation, which means how did the

death come about? So if we know the background circumstances, then we can determine whether it was an accident or a homicide. So our definition, our medical definition and not legal definition is death at the hands of another. We don't know who the other was most of the time, but if we know that there's evidence that someone didn't shoot themselves or fall down the stairs and there was another person involved, then we rule that as a homicide. Dr. Jane Gorniak, I don't know if you or the rest of the panel noticed that I did not interrupt once. I feel like I've died and gone to heaven. Hearing the clear explanation of the evidence at trial, although I have another follow-up for you, Dr. Jan Gorniak, there are cases, I remember an arson case I prosecuted in Fulton, and it looked as if the woman had simply inhaled fumes from a house fire and died. Okay.

Then, upon careful examination, the medical examiner noticed a blow to the head. The defense claimed that the blow to the head looked like from a bat or a cylindrical object. The defense argued when the firemen were taking her out of the home, they accidentally, in the dark and the smoke, bammed her head into a banister, and the stairwell did have banisters. That was the argument, okay? However, upon investigation, including investigation from the medical examiner investigators, we discovered that all of the husband's family albums of his family, not hers, had been removed and hidden at his warehouse. I went to every dry cleaner within a 10-mile radius

and found all of his suits and dress shirts and ties getting cleaned, all of them at once, in the week before the death. We found where he had checked the weather to find out if it was going to rain the day of the fire and to cap it all off, called his insurance company and asked if his house burned down, would his insurance policy pay for rental furniture? Okay, the medical examiner took all this extrinsic evidence into account and determined it was homicide. What about that, Dr. Gorniak? Well, part of our job is to also determine pre and post-mortem injuries. So we are experts in injury interpretation, so we can tell. So if you're saying that someone has smoke inhalation, I don't know if that's what they died from, but they also have a blow to the head.

Sometimes in a fire, Jeff, it's difficult, but we can tell whether that occurred before the person died or after. But then also, especially in smoke inhalation cases, we always check for carbon monoxide. So if someone has carbon monoxide in their blood, then they were alive, at least breathing during the time of the fire. But if that carbon monoxide comes back negative, then we can say that they were dead at the time of the fire and they weren't breathing. So therefore the blow to the head came before they succumbed, quote unquote, to the fire. Well, as tempting as it is to assume this woman did it because she's written all these books. And typically, let me just tell you, I gave Chuck Roberts a hard time to Dr. Bethany Marshall,

LA psychoanalyst, when he said young zero men were the heroes. But actually, she does usually have chiseled good looks, with ex-navy seals quote rugged men strong women and a good story i don't know what they mean by rugged but i always tell my husband when he's got a knife or a lawnmower in his hand i would say uh-uh use those fingers for punching numbers on a calculator you get away from that get away from that. Get away from that. Rugged, chiseled, good looks. My rear end. I want a man that goes to work and loves the children. That's what I'm looking for. But isn't that stereotypical, Dr. Bethany? Chiseled, rugged, good looks, ex-Navy SEAL. And whoops, my husband's dead. Well, did you see the cover of those books?

Of course I did. Oh my God. Those, those men look like they had spent their lives in gymnasium because they were really, uh, buff. Um, it's interesting because the appearance of the couple versus the appearance of the book cover was so different. It's like this woman was living in a fantasy world. And a lot of times I see with my patients that they have a preference for living in fantasy rather than reality. Is there something wrong with that? You ever heard of the phrase?

Listen to this. Hold on, Dr. Bethany. Listen to what a neighbor don mcconnell tells our friend at koin tv got the nerve up wants to ask her you know i said well you know you heard anything you know and she said no there you know i'm out of the loop and what do you mean she says well they consider me a suspect until that moment don mcconnell who shares a fence with Nancy Brophy, only had a high-and-by relationship with his neighbor. She's taken it well, and that's what

I said. You know, she, I said, maybe that, you know, some people can handle things better than others, and she never showed that she was really upset, but, you know, we, nobody, I think, dwelled on the subject, you know, hey, what do you think of, you know, you just kind of get in and get out type thing. In the months since her husband, beloved chef Daniel Brophy, was killed, McDonald's says Nancy, who's now in custody, kept busy preparing to move. I never put that together. I mean, even after she said I'm a suspect, I just thought, oh, yeah, well, they always suspect the opposite, the spouse. I would hope that she's innocent and that she's just handling it well.

Wow, handling it well. You are hearing our friend Valina Jones at CBS's KOIN-TV talking with a neighbor, Don McConnell, and apparently all the neighbors felt the same way. I want to follow up with what we were just talking about with Dr. Bethany Marshall. We are talking about a woman, a successful novelist, who writes novels about murdering your husband. And now she's suspected of murdering her husband. I mean, Ashley Wolcott, judge, lawyer, come on. I mean, you know, everything she wrote in the book is going to come in. Exactly. Absolutely. And it should, because

quite frankly, think about, you know, the description at the beginning of this broadcast was she wrote romance suspense novels. Talk about the suspense in any of the things that she detailed in her novel that fit this particular crime need to come in because it's clearly premeditation if the facts are the same. You don't make this stuff up in a book and then say, oh, somebody else did it. Well, I noticed to you, Kenya Johnson, veteran Atlanta prosecutor, in her blog, How to Murder Your Husband by Nancy Brophy, she writes, As a romantic suspense writer, I spend a lot of time thinking about murder and consequently about police procedure. After all, if their murder is supposed to set me free,

I certainly don't want to spend any time in jail. Owie! Okay, the first thing I would do is get that authenticated and certified and read it out loud in the opening statement. Absolutely, that's going to be great evidence. This looks like a situation of life imitating art in a new production called The Wrong Wife. Seems like she may have been the wrong wife.

But this isn't as uncommon as you think. Many times the murderers have plot out or have written out their plans years ahead of time and their life just happened to play it out at the right circumstances. This reminds me of the Atlanta child murders trial with Wayne Williams. It came out that he had written a book manuscript almost talking about similar circumstances in which he murdered some of the little boys in Atlanta. So this is the type of information that goes toward knowledge, identity. She has the wherewithal to plan such a murder, and she has the ability to take it out and execute it in steps, as she's detailed in her article.

Kenya Johnson beautifully put, okay, I hope all of you are sitting down. Actually, you may need to lay down for this. I'm reading from her writing, quote, divorce is expensive. And do you really want to split your possessions? Or if you marry for money, aren't you entitled to all of it? The drawback is police aren't stupid. They're looking at you first. So you have to be organized, ruthless, and very clever. Husbands have disappeared from cruise ships before. Why not yours? It sounds like a commercial. So Chuck Roberts, what's the cause of death on the husband? It is a gunshot wound,

but that's about all we know. The judge sealed the probable cause affidavit. So we don't know actual cause of death. We don't have a weapon, a time of death, her alibi, her motive, it's all sealed and probably will be until she goes on trial. But the students who found him said he did suffer from a gunshot wound. He was found by students around 8.30 a.m. on a Saturday at the Oregon Culinary Institute, still alive, barely, and they called 911, but he was pronounced dead at the scene. Wow. To Dr. Jane Gorniak, Fulton County Medical Examiner, Dr. Gorniak, hearing those facts, gunshot wound, still alive at the time he was found by students at his place of work, the Oregon Culinary Institute. What does that tell you, Dr. Gorniak? Well, it might be that the shooting occurred not too long before he was found, if he was still technically alive for the emergency medical

services when they arrived, or where was he shot. So, you know, the gunshot wound to the head, it would be more fatal or more quickly fatal, I guess, compared to like a gunshot wound to the head, it would be more fatal or more quickly fatal, I guess, compared to like a gunshot wound of the chest where you go into shock from bleeding first. So depending on where and when the shots occurred could fit the story of him still being alive, but unfortunately pronounced dead by the time they got there, the EMS got there to pronounce him. Dr. Gorniak, what would medical examiner investigators look for at the scene? At the scene, what we would look for if there's any sign of a struggle, the position that they're in, whether there was evidence that someone moved, that they were shot in one place and was able to walk because there's a blood trail and then they collapsed at a different place. We will also bag their hand to preserve any evidence. So just in

case, like I said, there was a struggle or obviously there's no weapon there, put a seven head fire with the gun themselves. So if there's no weapon there, we can kind of sort of really rule out a suicide. Most homicides I've dealt with, they do not leave the gun behind. So that points to a death at the hand of another. So in any witnesses, we would speak to the people who found them. Also, what's really important is when was the last time they were known alive? And that can help pinpoint a time of death. So if he was supposed to go home on Friday night, he wasn't supposed to be there, or if his class was supposed to start at 9 o'clock and he's there at 8.30.

So those type of questions that we ask people can help narrow a timeline of when the injury occurred. That is very telling, the fact you pointed out about whether the weapon is there or not, and it was not there, so clearly not likely to be a suicide. We also know that this occurred, the students came in around 8.30 in the morning. So who would be waiting there at 8 o'clock in the morning to gun someone down? We don't know of a robbery. We don't know of signs of a burglary. And did you say, Chuck Roberts, that the judge sealed the probable cause affidavit? Because I find that very unusual.

I do, too. And I don't know Oregon law, obviously, but she made her first appearance and the judge accepted the defense request to seal the probable cause affidavit that has all the details of the crime. To your point about when he was shot, a couple of the students said that they thought he had been there overnight, that he was, quote, working late. What he was doing there, why he was there, and whether or not he normally taught on Saturday morning, I don't know, but was working late in the student's testimony. Guys, I want you to hear a passage that she wrote. Okay. Quote, I live in the beautiful green, wet Northwest, married to a chef whose mantra is life is a science project. As a result, there are chickens and turkeys in my backyard, a vegetable garden, which also grows tobacco as insecticide, a hot meal on the table every night.

Wow, what I would do to get that. It's usually me putting the hot meal on the table. For those of you who have longed for this, let me caution you. The old adage is true. Be careful what you wish for. When the gods are truly angry, they grant us our wishes. That is her writing. Now again, the neighbors in the community are shocked. Listen. I think it's a surprise to everybody in the neighborhood. Fairly quiet, ordinary people from what I could observe. Cookies at Christmas.

Chef Dan Brophy ran Southwest Portland's Oregon Culinary Institute. Students arriving for class the morning of June 2nd found Brophy dead inside the school. His killer nowhere to be found. Later that day, Nancy Crampton Brophy appeared at a vigil. He was a person who did what he loved. He loved teaching. He loved mushrooms. Family he loved next in tides.

Nancy Crampton Brophy posted on her Facebook page the next day a message announcing the sad news of her husband's murder and added, I'm struggling to make sense of everything right now. Guys, not only did she write that when she took to Facebook the day after the death, she also shares a very unusual post announcing the death and urging friends not to call. And I'm looking at her post. It's a full paragraph. she says chef dan brody was killed yesterday morning my husband and best friend um for those of you who are close to me and feel this deserved a phone call you're right but i'm struggling to make sense of this now

there's a candlelight vigil tomorrow night. I appreciate your loving responses. I'm overwhelmed. Please save the phone calls until I can function. You know, that showed a lot of wherewithal to take to Facebook, Chuck Robertson, and type out a paragraph. Exactly. And I think something interesting she said at the vigil, you know, extolling her husband's fame. She said, he taught me everything I know about knives. We don't know the murder weapon, but it's apparently a gun. But I think that was interesting that she said that at the vigil. Yeah, I find that unusual too. And to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm looking at the cover of one of her books and it is, I guess some people

would say a hottie I wouldn't he's not attractive to me because he's obviously been working out in the gym too much he's wearing a gaudy chain around his neck and he's wearing um what do you say a tank top they refer to them as wife beaters which I don't wife beater I don't but some people do and he's all like smoldering. You know, I like a guy who comes home from work, and I can tell he's actually been working, not preening in the gym all day long. I guess it's, you know, what you think, what you're looking for. But this guy isn't even remotely attractive to me. I mean, when my husband breaks into a big smile, and he's playing with the twins. I mean, that is when that's when I realized how much I really love him. Not not this dude all buffed out.

The cover of the book tells me that she has a very strange idealized view of herself and of men. This is a woman who lives in a fantasy world. Not only does she write fantasy novels, but she lives in a fantasy. Have you ever heard of the phrase, neurotics build castles in the sky, psychotics live in them? So not only did she write out her fantasies, in which I think in her own mind's eye, she was this young, beautiful ingenue who had power over all these buff men who were out doing her bidding. And then she had the ultimate power to kill them. And then they left her with their largesse, all their money. This is the fantasy world she lived in. And she wrote about it extensively. And after her husband died, the fantasy did she lived in and she wrote about it extensively and after her husband

died the fantasy did not end the way she put the facebook post was as if she was still in that fantasy world oh it's like don't cry for me argentina you know please please give me a few days to recover and and then you can call me don't but don't call now. This whole idea of a hot meal on the table every night. I would guess that if this was a patient in my office and she was telling me about her life, I would have a very difficult time sifting through all the stories that she was telling to try to determine what the reality of her life was and what she really felt. Because living in a fantasy world can be a psychopathology. Some people live their lives that way. And this is just one of those people.

You know, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, founder of childcrimewatch.com, she writes another passage about how she decided to marry her husband. She was taking a bath, and she thought he was coming in the bathroom. And she called out, Hey, are you coming in here? And he answered, Yes, I'm coming, but I'm bringing hors d'oeuvres. I'm sorry. I mean, you know what? If David Lynch brought me hors d'oeuvres in the bathtub, I would probably shoot him because I think he would be having an affair.

I mean, the other day he went to the dentist, and I thought for a split second he had his teeth whitened. I said, you know what? You're in big trouble, young man. Because I said, don't be going to get those teeth brightened and whitened. What's that all about? Plus, he went on the keto diet, and he's been working out. Okay, all the red flags are there.

I know, Nancy. I don't mean to laugh, but this woman lives in a novel, in a romance novel. The things that she says, types, is doing, and don't contact me, she's so full of drama. Everything she's doing sounds like she's one of her characters. I think that she is, quite frankly, a little bit out of her mind and thinks she lives in this book. And, oh, I killed my husband, and I can continue on because I killed him because it's a fascinating, fascinating mindset of this woman.

So when it all boils down to the science to dr jan gorniak fulton county medical examiner what role does the bullet trajectory path play in this investigation well just like we don't know where the gunshot wound is located on on his body so one it could help determine the position that people people are in. So all we can say relative to the end of the gun, the body was positioned this way. So questions we may be asked at trial was, could he have been sitting? Yes, it's consistent with that. Could he have, you know, oh, we don't know. It could have been a shot to the back of the head that he didn't see literally coming. So those can help the investigation.

Well, don't you think, Dr. Gorniak, if it had been to the back of the head, he would have been dead by the time the students got there? Yes and no, because we don't know the caliber of the gun, right? So there's a difference between a 22 versus a 45, right? So depending, and those are the pieces of the puzzle that are missing. And that's what's so fantastic about medical, legal and death investigation is a bunch of puzzle pieces where we see parts of the picture. But once we have all the pieces together, then we can see the total picture and put it together. So depending, like you said, yes, depending on the gun and shot to the back of the head could have been instantly fatal or depending on how high up, low to the right, up, down, it can make a world of difference.

You know, another, Kenya Johnson, I just wish that you had a case like this. Listen to what else she writes. Quote, I find it is easier to wish people dead than to actually kill them. I don't want to worry about blood and brains splattered on my walls. And really, I'm not good at remembering lies. Well, I wasn't on her walls. It was at the Culinary Institute walls. So her home was completely pristine. And who really sits

around wishing somebody was dead? Believe me, as you well know, Kenya Johnson, I've had my plenty of battles, most of them in court, a few at TV networks. But long story short, I honestly do not sit around and have never wished somebody dead or even really given it much thought. It's such a huge waste of time. Well, it goes toward her disposition, her thinking patterns. This is something that she clearly thought about a lot. And this is something that she was capable of doing. Nancy, you're in the crime and punishment business. If something, heaven forbid, were to befall your husband, the first person they would look at is you because you've discussed crime all your life or all your career. And so you would know tricks and ways to get under the radar and

to perform certain acts and so this is oh kenya kenya you're so funny because in my last novel murder in the courthouse i don't want to give the whole thing away but one person does make an unfortunate trip to gatorland or gator world and dies well this well this summer last spring break we went to um what is it jackie not disney the one beside universal yes universal and we just happened to stop by gatorland david would not get within 10 feet from me the entire time i wonder why hey guys listen to this he was really tough um he was really hard um he um would call out some of the flaws that you had so you can correct them. There was a big flood that came down here and it buried a bunch of things. Knowledge, knowledge beyond belief. You think you come into culinary school like wide

eyed with like this dream of being a chef and he realizes like you can do that, but there's a lot of things you need to know in between that. Guys of murder if you have heard about the murder of jessica chambers do not miss the new docuseries on oxygen the true story of a teen girl a cheerleader from mississippi burned alive and the story of the man accused of the heinous crime. Is the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime occur? With more questions than answers, it is a case that has captured national headlines, taken over social media,

and leaving a small town divided. It is a must-see TV event. Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers. It premieres Saturday, September 15th, 7, 6 Central, on Oxygen. New episodes every Saturday on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Death by pineapple chutney, peach chutney, rhubarb ketchup today. One cuisine for the rest of my life, I would opt for Thai cuisine, I think. It'll look more professional if you've got that diameter of chicken breast all the way around.

Nice internal garnish scattered through there. You know, the eye catches all that color and shape as being more flavorful. Wow, if I were not already married and had the twins, I would totally hunt this guy down. Did you hear that? Chuck Roberts, reporter with CrimeOnline.com. He's talking about his pineapple chutney, his homemade pineapple chutney, about whether the chicken breasts are the same size. I think that's what he was talking about. I mean, look, ask me about murder. I'm fine.

But for me, cooking, you put it in the crock pot, and then somehow it turns out great in about eight hours. Chuck, I would go after him, but he's dead of a gunshot wound with no burglary, no robbery, no theft from his body, no ransacking his place of business, the Oregon Culinary Institute, at 8.30 in the morning. Somebody was waiting on him. I mean, typically, you don't see break-ins and deaths of this manner happen first thing in the morning. That's usually happening after midnight. So, Chuck Roberts, what happens now? You've got to find a motive. Why did she do it? Why did she plan this? What was her, did she have an alibi? Was it because he was more successful than she was?

Insurance, inheritance, spiking her book sales. How did she think she could get away with it, assuming she's guilty? Well, another thing to Ashley Wilcott, as you well know, and we've discussed many times, the state has no burden to prove a motive. We don't have to crawl into a killer's mind and stomp around in there in the darkness in a killer's brain and figure out why. Although, practically speaking, Ashley, juries want to hear that motive. Sure, but they don't have to. Like you said, they just have to show that you have the intent to kill the person. It doesn't matter why you intended to kill the person. And so in this particular case, who knows what her motive is. I stand by living in a romance model. I mean,

I just don't think there's going to be any motive that we can discover. And who cares why? If a criminal person does it and there's evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they committed the crime, why doesn't matter, Nancy? What about kenya johnson motive necessary not necessary but if the police keep digging they're gonna find something either in the novel and the finances and something she said and it always helps the jury if they know why the defendant killed the victim well another issue to dr bethany marshall we hear in her writing we read in her, even if you marry for money, shouldn't it all be yours? Why would you want to give up everything you've got? A lot of husbands go missing on cruise ships. Why not yours? And you know what? Maybe even if they had very little money, she would still have

wanted to keep it all for herself. But you know what? Hey, people kill over the strangest things. Maybe he forgot to drop an extra strawberry into her glass of champagne. Maybe the souffle didn't rise. Maybe he did not serve her perfectly. Maybe he deviated from the script of her romance novel. You know, people kill over minor things, not major things. You know, the stories that make it onto your show,

you know, are often, you know, when there's a huge insurance policy or there's a fight over who owns the house or something like that. But what I see in my clinical practice is it's the small simmering resentments that build up over time. And it's the wish to wall off the other person

instead of seeing them as a whole human being with thoughts and feelings and motivations of their own. And, you know, one final thing. This is a study in contrast, these two. She lives in a fantasy world. He's in reality. He looks at what's on the plate. He looks at the diameter of the chicken breast. He looks at the garnishes.

He has a scientific methodology behind the cooking. He cares about his students. I would think that at a very unconscious level, she's envious of him because he's a more evolved human being than she is. Quite frankly, he's a lot nicer. He's a lot more accomplished. And he's living a better life than she has. Well, you know, it's interesting, you know, when you take into the human dynamic. Brophy's mother, Karen Brophy, says the family is in shock at the fact

her daughter-in-law is suspected. And we also learned that they are saying, we're not swayed by the allegations against her. None of us believe it. It's crazy. It's just not true. People that know the couple are shocked because they saw no suggestion of any type of problem between them a neighbor Heidi Hutchinson who lives near them says that she the suspect said just this summer just said her husband's death had lingered and a move seemed her best chance at escape. She said his side of the bedroom was haunting her, and the memory of him was upsetting her, and she wanted to move very quickly and get out of the house. What does that mean, Dr. Bethany?

Because I tried to hold on to every single object, lock of hair, everything I had of my fiancé's and of my dad's. So this tells me that she is still writing her romance novel, right? Because she says, his side of the bed is haunting me. That has such an idealized quality to it. Because as you just pointed out, when a loved one dies, you want to hold on to every single piece of that person as long as possible. I've had patients tell me after they've lost a spouse or a child that they will sleep with that person's t-shirt just because it has the smell of that person on them. But this perpetrator, this alleged perpetrator is still living in the fantasy world that everybody is going to cling to every word

that she's writing, even if it's on Facebook and not in a novel anymore, that his side of the bedroom is haunting her. So one of the things that I know to be true in my field is that reality is curative. If a person does not have a preference for reality, then they are very pathological. And what I see is despite all these adverse circumstances, despite the fact of appending charges, that this alleged perpetrator is still living in a reality world. I wonder what that reality, if that reality or that fantasy world is going to come crashing in once she's behind bars. You know, another issue to Ashley Wilcott, the mindset it takes to shoot someone you know and have loved, whether you

still love them or not, in the face or in the head versus in the chest. You know, Nancy, I can't even, and I didn't mean to interrupt you, Nancy, I apologize. I just get excited because I can't even imagine, even though I'm a judge on the fence and watch trials and hear all the evidence for crimes that are committed, I cannot imagine the mindset that you would have to have to kill someone, to shoot them in the chest and kill them dead, much less your husband. We don't want to kill our husbands, Nancy. Let's admit, there are times that I think, oh my gosh, I'm going to kill him if he does that one more time, but we're not literally going to kill them. I cannot imagine the mindset, and again, these cases are outliers. Not everybody's

going to murder or shoot their husband. But I just have to say, even with the outlying cases, I don't understand the mindset to say, hey, I'm going to shoot this person. I'm going to murder this person. But I think that's what happened here. Listen to this. It is a twist that Dan Brophy's students and friends say has them stunned tonight. Friends of Chef Dan Brophy, rocked by his killing, are now reeling with the allegation that Brophy's wife murdered him.

63-year-old Nancy Crampton Brophy showed no emotions during her brief court appearance, watching the proceedings over the domestic violence murder charges involving her husband unfold. That from KATU-TV in Portland. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.