Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - FINALLY: ARREST IN MURDER OF YOUNG MOM CRYSTAL ROGERS

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

It's been eight years since Crystal Roger went missing. Her then-boyfriend, Brooks Houck, immediately became the main suspect.  The mom of five was last seen at Houck's home. Rogers' car was found abandoned with a flat tire on the Bluegrass Parkway two days later. Her keys, phone, and purse were inside the vehicle. Houck was interviewed, but not arrested. Houck has been charged with murder and tampering with evidence. The details of why, however, remain sealed until his arraignment.  Houck's bond has been set at $10 million cash. This is the second arrest related to Crystal Rogers' disappearance. 32-year-old Joseph L. Lawson was charged with conspiracy to commit murder and tampering with physical evidence in the case. Lawson has pleaded not guilty. His connection to this case is not yet known, but Lawson's father worked for Houck.  Rogers’ body has not been found.    Joining Nancy Grace Today: James Shelnutt – Attorney – The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C.; 27-year Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective and Former S.W.A.T. Officer; Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski – Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;” FB: forensicsandmediapsychologist/TikTok: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder & Host of New Podcast: “Zone 7;” Twitter: @149Zone7 Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Fallon Glick – WDRB Louisville News Reporter; Facebook & Twitter: @FallonGlick @WDRBNews See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Finally, an arrest and the murder of a beautiful young mom, Crystal Rogers. Take a listen to this. It's an arrest that has everyone's attention. Brooks Houck, Crystal Rogers' boyfriend and the main suspect in her disappearance charged with her murder and tampering with physical evidence. According to the indictment, the charges stem from an incident July 4th weekend of 2015, just days before Crystal's car was found abandoned on the side of the Bluegrass Parkway with her keys, phone, and purse inside. He was named the

main suspect within three months, but never charged until today. Why so long? You were just hearing our friends at WHAS. For those of you just joining us in the last hours, finally, an arrest in the murder of Crystal Rogers. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. It's been a long time coming. And you know what's so irritating? You know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of a hit new series, Zone 7.

When I hear, and I've heard it over and over, countless cases, Cheryl McCollum, quote, everybody knew. I mean, since day one, everyone said, Brooke, how is the killer? Why did it take so long? And to you, Cheryl McCollum, have you ever had those cases? And you have to tell every single witness. It doesn't matter what everybody says, because very often what everybody says is not true. That's not the killer. It turns out to be someone completely different.

But in this case, it's true. Since the whole thing went down, he has been suspect number one. He's been suspect only one. There hasn't been anybody else. But it's one of those situations, what you know and what you can prove is not the same thing.

So they had to be patient. They had to work this case from every angle, which is what you know and what you can prove is not the same thing. So they had to be patient. They had to work this case from every angle, which is what they did. They got him once for theft. They got people that were close to him for perjury. They even pressed Grandma so hard, she invoked her Fifth Amendment. So they have worked this thing beautifully

as long as they possibly could until they got to today. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you got to give them credit. It takes a lot of doing to come down so hard on a granny. She takes the fifth. Right on. That is some serious, serious questioning. That's straight up good police work. Yeah. In the last hours, the so-called boyfriend of Crystal Rogers has been arrested, and it has been a long time coming. Take a listen to WHAS 11.

Federal investigators accused Houck of intentionally causing the death of Crystal Rogers and destroying, concealing, mutilating, or removing physical evidence in connection to the crime. He was arrested without incident while on a job site outside of Bardstown. This was the moment Brooks was put into handcuffs. My first reaction was just Sherry and her family getting the justice that they have fought so much for. Joining me right now, anchor WDRB out of Louisville, Fallon Glick. Thank you for being with us. Fallon, tell me about the arrest. Well, Brooke Tauch, her former boyfriend, he was arrested at a work site and then he was then taken to the Nelson County Jail.

We have video of him handc handcuffs walking into the jail. It wasn't there very long, but we did get a booking photo of him. And then he was taken to another county jail called the Harding County Jail. And that is where he is staying currently. And he's not going to get out unless he posts that $10 million cash only bond. Okay, $10 million cash bond. James Shelnut, that's unlike a lot of bonds where you can put, for instance, your house down as collateral. You get a $100,000 bond. You got to come up with $10,000 money or collateral like a home.

But a $10 million bond, that's not going to happen anytime soon. No, it's not going to happen anytime soon. And, you know, a lot of times with severe cases, you do see a cash bond. That's not going to happen anytime soon. No, it's not going to happen anytime soon. And, you know, a lot of the times with severe cases, you do see a cash bond, but even with a cash bond, that's a pretty high cash bond. They must feel pretty confident in the case that they've got against him. And so must the judge to set the bond that high. I mean, get real, shall not. If the guy has managed to outsmart police for this many years and the disappearance and death of his girlfriend, Crystal Rogers, I wouldn't let him set one toe outside of that jailhouse because he could very likely slip away. I wouldn't let him set foot outside the jail

either. You know, this guy has sat and committed potentially a crime against a mother of five children. He's covered it up. He's played games. And this guy has shown he's dangerous and he's a danger to the community. And a danger to any potential witnesses is why I would let him out on bond. And you said the case is so severe it calls for a high cash bond. What do you mean by that? And what is a cash bond as opposed to a regular bond, Shelnut? Well, it's severe because he's accused of

murdering a mother of five, of potentially covering this murder up, taking steps. You know, additionally, you know, we've got some implications as to involvement in some other situations as well. And the cash bond is set so that the judge can ensure that, yeah, I'm not giving him a no bond. So I'm going to meet the basic constitutional requirements of providing bail. But I will tell you this, if you're going to get out, we're going to be pretty sure that you're coming back. Okay. Let me Q&A with myself for just a moment. James Shelnut was asked, what's the difference in a cash bond and regular bond? Again, in regular bond, you can put a collateral like the value of your home. You can put up,

for instance, real estate in a cash bond. You got to have cold, hard cash. Everything else Shelnut said was dead on. Joining me, James Shelnut, a high profile lawyer with the Shelnut Firm. He's based in Alabama, but travels all over 27 years on Metro major case at ShelnutLawFirm.com. Guys, this has been one long drawn out investigation. I want you to take a listen to Monica Harkins, WDRB. We saw the car pull in through the fence. As he got out of the car, I asked, where is Crystal Rogers? He didn't say anything as he entered the back of the jail. The Nelson County jailer was also on hand.

You can see that clearly as this unmarked car goes through the gate. Around 1045, Houck showed up here. But it was around 845 this morning, the FBI of Louisville posted about Houck's arrest. Rogers was last seen in July of 2015. The FBI post saying FBI and KSP have been laser focused on their commitment to hold accountable those that were responsible for the disappearance of Crystal Rogers, saying, quote, today we take a significant step in making good on that promise. You know, Fallon Glick joining me, anchor WDRB, we all heard FBI. Why did the FBI have to be brought in to solve this case? What about local law enforcement? What's the problem, Fallon Glick?

Well, local law enforcement, the sheriff's office, they have been on this since day one. And I think they just didn't have enough resources to pull this case together. And we know Sherry Ballard, the mother of Crystal Rogers. She has been the true champion for her daughter's case, keeping it in the spotlight. And, you know, very soon after her daughter disappeared she asked the FBI to come and please take over this case and that didn't happen until five years later so the FBI they've been on the case now for three years and when they come in that late they have more work to do because they

weren't there from day one and so it has taken a lot of time to pull all this evidence together because we know they've executed so many search warrants at the Houck family properties, the Houck family farm. You know, that's a 300 acre farm. So they have been there several times. And then not too long ago, they were at a home that Brooks Houck has built, and they dug up the driveway, collected a ton of evidence there. So the evidence that the FBI has had to sort through is unimaginable. I know the prosecutor is saying that they have to turn over two terabytes worth of information in this case. So just a lot to go through here. We don't know what any of that evidence is,

but two terabytes worth, that's a lot. Back to the question, Cheryl McCollum joining us from Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum, I was asking why the feds had to be brought in. That was the question. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Cheryl McCollum, but didn't the boyfriend have relatives and or friends on the local police force? Correct. Nick Hout. And he was fired, actually, for interfering with a police investigation. This investigation? This investigation. Absolutely. So bringing the FBI, I think, was the right call for a multitude of reasons. It appeared we had a kidnapping because her car was found somewhere else with the keys and cell phone and purse.

So, you know, they can do things rapidly that some local law enforcement maybe cannot do. But in this situation, you have someone that was the boyfriend who was the last person to be seen with her alive. He was visiting his family farm with her at the time. And then, you know, we always love this when they say, well, I woke up and she was just gone. As a matter of fact, you're right. But I can tell you one thing. Has anybody ever heard the phrase one bad apple spoils the whole Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, when you have a police officer on your force that is related to or connected to the suspect, the defendant, the person of interest, any of that, and that person has the opportunity, has been given the opportunity to tamper with evidence or impede the investigation in any way. You screwed up. The whole kit and caboodle has screwed up. If you have allowed an officer access to information, access to evidence, access or opportunity to pull strings behind the scenes. Oh, H-E-L-L-N-O. That's why you got to have the FBI in. Forget about the cars found in another location. Yes. Which means a kidnapping. Yes. Which is under FBI jurisdiction. But still, you had a cohort of the defendant on the police force pulling strings. It stinks, Morgan. It stinks. Yes, it does. And here's the thing. When you think about an investigative team,

like in this particular case where you have the locals, they're within a bubble. They're within their own investigative bubble, and it's kind of a closed loop where that information kind of circles around within that environment. You got the prosecutor and everybody else that's in there. When you bring in the FBI, they're outside of that bubble, but that's a good thing because their investigation is run in parallel.. And think about the FBI is this, having worked many cases with them. They like to get information, but not a lot flows back out of them because they keep their own closed loop. Can I boil that down for you, Joe Scott? They don't give a flying fig what anybody in town thinks, who's second cousin related to Mama Sass and blah, blah, blah.

They don't care. They're the FBI. They're there to piss you off and make you angry and think, oh, Bigfoot. And they do the job. You see FBI coming in, it's over. Forget it. Well, they know the pressure points and where to apply pressure. And I refer to it many times as the FBI stare.

You know, when you speak to them, it's not necessarily vacant, but you know that there's nothing that's necessarily going to flow back out. But there's kind of a darker, insidious thing with this case that's not being mentioned here. I'll mention it. What is it? It's the homicide of Tommy Ballard. Yes, I'm getting to that. Okay, let's use that methodical. the homicide of Tommy Ballard. Yes, I'm getting to that. OK, well, I don't mean to bury the lead,

but it's all a lead when it comes to this case. OK, I go very methodically, believe it or not, through the evidence, because that's the way you win a case. You cannot run into a case willy nilly. You have to go in a methodical order. First, I'm dealing with Crystal, and then we're getting to what you just accurately said, Fallon Glick, WDRB. What precisely got the boyfriend's brother fired? Well, Nick Hauke worked for the Bardstown Police Department and the chief there fired him because he was interfering with the investigation. He called the brother during his police interrogation and you could tell he didn't want him talking to police. And in his own investigation,

he said he was just doing that to protect his brother because he knows how interrogations work. But the chief didn't like that answer. And so he said, you failed to cooperate. So he fired him. And the investigating body is not that particular police force. The investigating body is who? It was the Nelson County Sheriff's Office at the time. And Nick Houck, Brooks's brother, worked for the Barstown City Police Department.

But they share a building and then there's, you know, there's a wall in between. So they're in the same building. Guys, take a listen to this. Crystal Rogers, a mother of five, disappeared in July of 2015. In October of that year, the Nelson County Sheriff's Office named her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, the main suspect. He was never arrested or charged. The FBI ripped up the driveway of a home Houck built, and just last year, the FBI was back at the Houck farm for a five-day search. On June 21st of this year, another man, Joseph Lawson,

was indicted for tampering with physical evidence in the Rogers case. On July 24th, Lawson was indicted on a conspiracy to commit murder charge. Lawson's connection to Houck is not known. We have learned Lawson's dad worked for Houck. On September 7th, Lawson pleaded not guilty in Nelson Circuit Court. We've reached out to Crystal Rogers' family. So far, we haven't heard anything other than a couple family members showing up here to say they're happy to see him behind bars. We also heard neighbors yelling from their porches saying they were happy to see him go in to this facility. People actually hanging off their porches, clapping and yelling, so happy that an arrest

has finally been made in the disappearance and death of Crystal Rogers. You were hearing our friends at WDRB. Who is the co-defendant Joseph Lawson? Back to Fallon Glick. And what do we believe his involvement is? Well, it's really still unclear what exactly his involvement was, but we know his father, Steve Lawson, had called Brooks Haug the night Crystal disappeared. And that phone call, Brooks Haug was asked about that phone call during his police interrogation, and he didn't really seem to remember what it was about. So he called Steve Lawson and said, hey, do you remember what I was calling you about that night? And he goes, oh, sure. He wanted a number for a house because he builds homes and he has all these rental properties. And so it was a late night phone call, only lasted several seconds.

And Mr. Lawson had said he needed something from Crystal. And then the detective asked, well, if Crystal was right with you in the truck, why didn't you just ask her then? And he said, oh, we would just figure out on Monday what he wanted. So it was it was a suspicious phone call. Seemingly seeming co-defendant Joseph Lawson was arrested, charged with conspiracy to commit murder and Crystal's disappearance. He, of course, is pled not guilty. But now how's arrested? Do you believe Lawson is talking? I think it's time to make a deal. A hundred percent. He was only protected as long as they couldn't get to the next person.

Well, they've done that now. So the first one that talks is going to get the deal. And you've got so many people involved with this thing, Nancy, not just Grandma. And you've got Danny Singleton, who was already arrested for 38 counts of perjury. So he ain't trying to tell the truth about what happened either. So all these people, you're going to shake that basket up, and whoever falls out first gets the deal. eight counts of perjury. So he ain't trying to tell the truth about what happened either.

So all these people, you're going to shake that basket up and whoever falls out first gets the deal. Well, I believe that the authorities are trying to get evidence against the boyfriend. Nobody else had a dog in the fight. Who else would want Crystal Rogers dead? James, you know, I think it's very interesting and I think it's probably a good strategy. And I don't think this was by accident that they arrested this Lawson guy prior to coming after Houck. I believe that they milked him for every piece of information that they could get out of him, that they built the best case they can with whatever he had to offer. And the strategy that they used was they want the small fish to get to the big fish. That's a common law enforcement tactic, and it's quite effective. Very effective, and the timing cannot be ignored. First, he gets

arrested, and then following that, give it a breather, the boyfriend is arrested. No coincidence. Speaking of the boyfriend, we, of course, are talking about Brooks Houck. Take a listen in our cut two, three, one, what he said to me. Brooks, you go to bed, and she's still playing games on her phone. The next morning around 8 o'clock, you notice that she's missing. Did you report her missing? No, ma'am. Why?

That is a great question and one that I definitely want to hit the public and the media. I was not, in the least little bit, alarmed in any way, shape, or form. We have had a stress relationship at times, and one of the ways that Crystal has always chose to cope or to deal with that is by going to a young woman's name, Sabrina. That is her cousin, her dad's brother's daughter, whom she's very close to. And she spent the night there on several occasions.

When you say several, do you mean one, three, 20? In the neighborhood of four to six. And you know, another thing to anybody on the panel, jump in. Let's try Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides. Dr. Kaliszewski, thank you for being with us. I don't recall Hauk being front and center, posting flyers, speaking to the press, begging for answers, going on searches. If I'm wrong, anybody jump in and tell me I'm wrong. But I find that very, very disturbing, Dr. Kaliszewski. Yeah, one thing that's really interesting was Hauk and his brother, for that fact, are not acting like they're very innocent.

Typically, if someone's significant other girlfriend is missing, particularly sort of that small town culture, everyone gets involved. Everyone's distressed. Everyone's worried. And we didn't see that in this case. As a matter of fact, Fallon Glick, WDRB, what did we see? What was Hawk's reaction to Crystal going missing? You know, he just didn't seem concerned really at all. And everyone questioned, well, why aren't you helping with any of these searches? Because there were so many. And he said he was conducting his own on his own time, but still nobody saw any of that. You know, I asked him a few years ago, I had called him up because we had never talked to him. He doesn't do interviews. So I did a phone interview with him

and I said, why don't you do anything? You know, it's been a few years, you're a girlfriend, you had a child with this woman, you don't seem to care at all. And he said he had been advised to ride the wave and keep riding the wave. And he said that has worked out great for him thus far. Why, you've just given me so much information, Fallon Glick, joining us WDRB.

Ride the wave. It's worked out well for him. Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Is that all this guy cares about? Isn't that called a narcissist, Dr. Kaliszewski? Yes, I saw that, and that's one of the first things that I thought. You know, narcissists are quite famous for they think they know everything, and they think they have control over everything,

and they're sort of not connected with reality, and recognizing that the way they're sort of not connected with reality and recognizing that the way they're behaving or not behaving may seem odd or suspect to others. They think if this is the way that I'm going to behave, then it's the right way to behave. Another point I want to make too is what's interesting is that, and I don't want to give any tips to people who are planning murders, but when you see people who commit a murder and then they try to act in a certain way, they get very focused on acting in ways that does not make them look guilty. But the piece they forget is they don't act in ways that make them look innocent. And I think that was demonstrated in this case

where Houck was not involved, did not seem very concerned about his girlfriend missing. Ride the wave. I don't really know what that means, ride the wave. And his strategy of doing nothing to find the mother of his child was, quote, working out for him. Well, you heard part of what Houck told me. Take a listen now to what we know about his police interview. Cut 229 WDRB. Houck's police interview when investigators questioned him right after Rogers disappeared in July 2015. Do you know of anybody they would want to hurt? I mean, as far as I know, she's a well-likable person. I know that she's got a few... Police also questioned Houck at the time

about his relationship with Rogers and whether they were splitting up. They were dating and living together. He says if they ever talked about splitting up, they would always make up and find themselves back together. Did I not tell you when you come in here and sit down today that right now you're the main person of interest? Yes, that's right. And I sit down today that right now you're the main person of interest? Yes, that's right.

And I explained to you the reason that you're the main person of interest, right? You're the last person to see her alive, right? And I went through your timeline with you and explained to you that there's gaps in your timeline, right? Be it good, bad, or indifferent, you can't remember some things about Saturday, you can't remember some things about Sunday. That's not a judgment against you. That's just a fact.

Can't remember what he was doing around the time that his girlfriend goes missing. And by the way, she's dead. Her car, her cell phone, her purse found in another location. How did that happen? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. James Shelnut, a high-profile lawyer, joining us from theshelnutlawfirm.com. As much as it pains me to remember, I remember every exact thing around the time my fiance was killed. Everything. I remember the morning leading up to it. I remember the PJs I had on standing outside and it was cold that morning. And the early morning when I waved goodbye to him as he left. I remember him driving away and throwing his left hand out of his car, waving goodbye. And I remember going to school

and taking a statistics exam and coming out and walking across campus and stopping at a pay phone to call the library where I worked to tell them I was late from the exam. I remember it crystal clear like it just happened yesterday. How could he lose big chunks of time in his memory when his girlfriend goes missing? Well, he didn't lose chunks of time. They're in his memory. He knows exactly what happened. He's just lying about them? He's lying about them because they don't benefit him.

You know, this interview was a goldmine of information. It was the missing chunks, which is a red flag to investigators. And not to mention the fact that he sits through the first hour of this interview, just as a matter of fact, emotionless talking about how this is going to affect him. It's creating extra work for him to care for their child. Plus he can't remember all these facts. There's nothing that was said by Brooks Houck that would lead you to believe that he was innocent in this interview. And there's all kinds of red flags that he's not. To Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski, forensic psychologist and author of Dark Sides, weigh in.

So one of the things when people are trying to recollect an experience or an incident, when you are trying to fabricate it in your mind in the moment, in other words, you're trying to create the lies during the moment, you're going to miss things. You're going to have these blocks of times. You may have went into that interview already having your lie planned out in your head, but once you're under police interrogation, they're going to ask you questions you didn't anticipate and that you had not created the false answer for. So it's quite hallmark when a suspect is in an interrogation and they are guilty.

They're not going to know how to answer many of these questions. They're going to show blocks of time. They're going to have incomplete answers and sometimes even contradict themselves. I also question Brooke Houck about his reaction when Crystal didn't show up to a get-together, a July 4th get-together. He's, let me just say, nonchalant, and that's certainly putting perfume on the pig. Listen. Brooks, did you go on to the July the 4th get together that day? Yes, I did. Even though you didn't know where she was? I was expecting, I put in a phone call that morning and then around lunch and usually the maximum period of time that she has stayed gone has only been like

a day to a day and a half at the most and as a result of that i thought that she would did you try to call her i'm sorry i didn't hear you ma'am did you try to call her during that time? Not while I was there at the fourth. I called her prior to leaving to head in that direction. Yes, ma'am. So when she doesn't show up to a party, a big party,

that Crystal was supposed to attend, when she doesn't show up, he does nothing? I mean, Cheryl McCollum, the other night the twins school had a get together of parents and david was going to meet me there separately and you know what else tonight there's a football game and um whether i know what's going on or not i go to the football games and david usually meets me there because we're coming from two different directions. If he hadn't shown up at that parent get together when he told me he was going to be there or

if he didn't show up at a football game, you don't think I would get out of those stands or leave that get together and get on every phone I've got, including my iPad, FaceTime, the twins phones, your phone, Jackie's phone, any phone I could get and start calling and trying to find him, track him on Live360, see if he's not a wreck, see if something's happened to him. But this guy did nothing. He's like, eh, no, I didn't try. On an investigation, Nancy, I usually keep two lists,

what they did and what they didn't do. This list of what he did not do, he didn't report her missing. Her mama did. He doesn't call around her family and everybody else saying, hey, where is she? We got these five kids. Somebody needs to help me take care of. He doesn't do that. He don't search for her. He don't demand that the police help find her. He doesn't even today demand that the police find the real killer. He's not making a plea right now saying y'all got the wrong person. You know what? You know who you remind me of right now? A friend of both of ours, and that's Mark Klaas. When his daughter Polly went missing and the

police come bamming down on his door, Polly had been at a spend the night party at her home with her mom and she was taken by complete depraved pervert. She was horribly assaulted and murdered. So in the middle of him trying to figure out where's my daughter, the police are, come on, come on, let's go. We want your fingerprints. You want your DNA. We want to know where you're at.

We want to search your place. It's like, do it. Take me. Take me to the police station. Do what you got to do. But just find my daughter. He didn't care. He didn't care what they did to him.

Now, let's think about the exact polar opposite. Scott Peterson. What did he do? He got on the phone with his girlfriend who didn't even know he was married saying, hey, I'm in Paris. What? We're celebrating New Year's. I'm with my friends. OK, that story stunk to high heaven to start with.

But that said, what did he do? He got to lying. He didn't get to the police station to help. He got to lying and then goes on TV and says she was wonderful in other words like he already knows she's dead and you know who who called 9-1-1 in this case fallon glick wdrb who called to report her missing oh it was the mom jerry ballard she called her and reported her missing and that same day she saw brooksuch in a parking lot somewhere because they just always seem to run into each other. It's a small town.

And he just seemed very unconcerned that she was, in fact, missing. And I want to point out, too, when you're kind of talking about it, just not answering questions during the interrogation and police have said about him and his brother they both had convenient cases of amnesia because whenever they asked about something unrelated to crystal they gave very detailed answers yeah anytime they could trash crystal you mean anytime they could say something bad about her they would they had all that memorized all of her movements were memorized but they couldn't say a thing about what their movements were during their lapses of memory. Can I jump in, Nancy? Please do. Is this Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski? Yes. Because you know what's odd, Dr. Kieliszewski, is right around the time that Keith was murdered, my fiance, I remember it very clearly,

but as time moves forward, like it's really hard for me to remember what happened at the funeral. I just remember a little glimpses of it at the murder trial. I remember very few. It's like someone's running a movie and then the screen goes dark and then you see another glimpse and then it goes dark again. But I remember everything very clearly about the time surrounding his death. What do you make of both he and his brother's lapses in memory? Right.

So when we're faced with an intense trauma, like what you just shared of your experience, it's not uncommon for us to sort of blank some of that out or block some of that out. When it's not a traumatic event, we have a much better and sharper memory. Now, in this case, you know, with Hoke, he had very much rehearsed answers. And we saw that in the clip that you played when you spoke with him on the phone, when

he started to talk about how she'd be gone for a day or a day and a half. That was quite rehearsed. He even said it very monotone. When you asked him, did you call her? That wasn't a question that he anticipated and he didn't have a prepared answer for. Another theory can be that, and I've talked about this on your podcast before, when people do carry out a murder, there's a lot of emotions that they didn't anticipate and they didn't expect. And sometimes remembering the details of what actually went down may not be very clear. But in this case, it sounds more like it was intentionally not being prepared with an answer for specific questions about details and blocks of time that the police asked

and that you asked him when you had a conversation with him. That's what I love so much about cross-examination, James Shelnut, high-profile lawyer joining us from the ShelnutLawFirm.com, is that I love to cross-examine and go out of order with the target on the stand to get them all confused, not start chronologically, go out of order, be on one subject, then go to another subject, then go back to the first subject, anything where they can't prepare a rehearsed answer, ask them questions about things they don't expect to be asked about. And that's exactly what Koleshevsky is saying, because it's true. Did you notice he had one rehearsed answer, but then he was thrown a boomerang? It came back to hit him right in the neck.

He didn't have an answer ready. No, he didn't. And that's a great tactic. I've used that tactic many times as well. It's quite effective, you know, or to pick a topic that is really kind of inconsequential and start hammering on that right out of the gate. Anything to get them out of that train of thought. You know, they put this lie together chronologically in their head.

And once you start getting out that chronological order of how they've arranged this lie in their head, it starts to fall apart. Yeah. Is the death of Crystal Rogers connected to a bigger picture? Take a listen to our cut 212WHAS11. They are three of Kentucky's most high-profile unsolved cases. The ambush killing of Bardstown police officer Jason Ellis, disappearance of mother of five Crystal Rogers, and fatal shooting of Rogers' dad, Tommy Ballard. The FBI previously made it clear they are the lead on the Rogers case, but investigating all three, saying this

in a one-on-one interview back in 2020. It is very rare to have all of these types of cases which are potentially connected in a small community. To Cheryl McCollum, what would the connection of the other cases be to Crystal Rogers? Nancy, again, I think we have to look at all of these people that are connected. So you've got Brooks, you've got his brother, you've got the co-worker and his father, you've got grandma, you've got Singleton. All of these people have things in common, whether it's making phone calls, the perjury, the theft, the lying, you know, the keeping these secrets since 2015. So you have to wonder why would Singleton get 38 charges of perjury? Why would this co-worker

accept these phone calls, but then not tell anybody? Why are they talking about these rental properties? So all of these dots, you're going to have to connect with these people that chose for eight years to not come forward, not tell what they know, but dig themselves into a deeper hole. To you, Fanny Glick, what is the possible connection between Crystal Rogers' case and the other murders? So family and a lot of the community, they believe that Tommy Ballard, Crystal's dad, was so involved in trying to find Crystal and doing his own interrogation and investigation to find his daughter. They believe that Tommy Ballard probably would have figured it out himself. And they believe that he was killed because maybe he was getting close to finding something out that

he shouldn't have. And then the days leading up to his death, Sherry Ballard, his wife, said he felt like he was being followed. And what about the law enforcement officer? Sure. Nick Howe, who we talked about, who got fired by the police chief, he worked the same shift as Jason Ellis, who was ambushed and killed on his drive home from work one night when he saw some debris on the road, got out to move these tree limbs off the road. And that's when he got shot multiple times and killed. Execution style. And he worked on the same shift with the defendant boyfriend's brother on the force. Wonder what he knew from working that shift.

Wonder what, if anything, he knew. We wait as all of these facts unfold. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.