Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Finally! JUSTICE FOR ABBY AND LIBBY

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

It's taken seven years, but the families of Abby Williams and Libby German sat in a courtroom today and heard Richard Allen declared guilty by a 12-person jury.  Allen was convicted on all four charges, two counts of murder and two counts of murder while kidnapping the girls. The jury listened to nearly three weeks of testimony and deliberated a total of 18 hours.  The bodies of teen girls were found near the Monon High Bridge in February 2017, in Delphi. Allen, a Delphi resident and local pharmacy tech was arrested five years after the murders.   Searchers found the two girls dead in a wooded area near the Monon High Bridge. Libby was unclothed and bloodied. Both girls had their throats slit. Allen, who confessed at least 60 times,  showed no emotion or reaction as the verdict was read. He was then cuffed and taken from the courtroom.  Allen’s wife, Kathy Allen, said “this isn’t over at all”  to 13 News as she left the courtroom. Sentencing will be at 9am ET on December 20. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7s  Susan Hendricks – Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;” IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks Dave Mack - CrimeOnline Investigative reporter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guilty. Guilty on all counts. In the Delphi double murder trial, Richard Allen has just been found guilty in the murders of little Abby and Libby. We are at the courthouse joining us, Susan Hendricks. Susan, what happened? Four days of deliberation, guilty on all counts. Richard Allen, it sounds guilty on all counts. Cheryl McCollum joining me, who has been covering this story from the very beginning, along with me, along with Susan Hendricks and Dave Mack. Cheryl, I understand that people poured out of the courthouse and had not made it to that bottom step where you and I waited to get in

and yelled out guilty. And then a cheer went up all around. Nancy, they could not wait to get to the first step before they were celebrating guilty on all counts. Finally, for Abby and Libby, justice is served. A jury of five men, seven women have returned a verdict of guilty. Richard Allen guilty on four charges and the murders of Abigail Abbey Williams and Liberty Libby German, the 52-year-old Delphi man convicted. I saw when the defense attorneys were leaving the courthouse, people were asking, Hey, hey, talk to us, talk to us. They got in their cars and they took off straight out to Dave Mack. Dave Mack, we've all been studying the indictment. Correct me if I'm wrong, two charges of felony murder and two charges of malice murder. Is that correct, Dave Mack?

That's absolutely correct. Guilty on all four charges. Abby, 13. Best friend Libby, 14. Going for a hike at the Monon High Bridge the afternoon, February 13, 2017. Cheryl, can you believe it's taken this long for a verdict to be handed down? You know, it shows due diligence by this jury. Nancy, when you were my prosecutor, you would tell me often, every day of trial equals an hour of deliberation. Things like to me, they were right on time. They did their job as hard as it was, you know, was for them being away from their families.

They did the work and we're seeing the results. Twelve people came to the same conclusion on the same day at the same time for these two young victims. Susan Hendricks with us at the courthouse. Susan, as the hours went by, many people thought that today would either be a hung jury or time for a dynamite charge. Absolutely. That's what I thought on Monday morning when I came back this morning. I just thought, okay, hung jury. I don't know why my gut said that. The streets, the sidewalks were lined here, and I almost started crying when I heard the verdict. It was a scream, guilty, and there was a roar of

celebratory, if you will, because of how long this has taken. You know, Susan Hendricks, what has the mood been in the courtroom when every day we would find out, well, they haven't reached a verdict today. They haven't reached a verdict today. They didn't reach it at lunch. They didn't reach it at the end of the day. We're going to come back over the weekend. We're going to come back on Veterans Day. What was the mood in the courtroom? Yeah. Well, I'll just tell you one thing. The family looked and sounded depleted, energy gone, exhaustion, thinking the worst that we're going to have to do this. You mean Abby and Libby's family, Abby and Libby's family. Yes. And Richard Allen's family breaking down in tears. I know that they're all exhausted. I mean, Cheryl, when you and I would go through, you know, weeks and weeks of a jury trial,

it was like I'd be a zombie by the time I'd be so tired and exhausted. At the time, the verdict finally came in. And then when it would all be over, you just like practically fall over. I know the families on both sides are just, oh, raw emotion, Cheryl. No way around it. Nancy, for a month, physically, it's been exhausting, but the emotional toll is just off the charts. And again, you've got two families that have been victimized, one family of the accused now convicted. You've got three families that have been on pins and needles and exhausted and emotionally spent. But again, today, we have two families that can start the process of healing. And you've got

another family that just unfortunately has got to deal with the consequences of what their loved one did. Well, we've heard a lot of the evidence at trial, and we're going to analyze what we believe turned the jury to this verdict. Finally, for those of you just joining us, justice for Abby and Libby. The jury has handed down a guilty verdict. Guilty on all counts. That's two counts of felony murder and two counts of malice or intentional murder. Now, what does that mean?

This has been charged in the alternative. Malice murder or murder one, premeditated murder, simply means that you had the intent to do the act. Not necessarily to kill, but you have the intent to do the act. Not necessarily to kill, but you have the intent to slice the girl's throats with a knife. Felony murder does not require any intent at all. It simply means that a death occurred during the commission of a felony. The felony herein would be kidnapping, forcing the girls down the hill. No set degree or amount of asportation, as it is called under the law, moving the victim. You can move them to another country.

You can move them three inches. That still qualifies as asportation under the law. In this case, forcing them off the bridge, down the hill, across the creek is asportation. That equals kidnapping. They're not going to be sentenced to felony murder life or 40 to 65 and on malice murder consecutively. Those counts now merge. I believe in that jurisdiction and there are mandatory sentences, but the sentencing has been set down. I believe Susan Hend Hendricks, for December 20. And I believe the defense is going to call character witnesses.

Yeah, December 20th. You said it right. And I'm still stunned about the verdict today. I swore it was going to be deadlocked. So that's what I heard. December 20th is the next court date. So, Cheryl McCollum, very quickly, I want to analyze what we know. There has been so much division and, you know, Susan, Dave Mack, jump in. Cheryl, I've heard so much about the town of Delphi being divided. I haven't necessarily seen any division when we were there. I've never seen division in this town on any topic, whether it was the investigation, fighting for justice, or every single day and night after court. What I saw when the town started putting signs up, even on business windows, they were solid in what they wanted, justice for Abby and Libby. And I'm going to tell you something, Nancy, when a lot of the information came out and a lot of his confessions came out, I don't think it was lost on this community or this jury

when he told in chronological order what happened that day. That to me was when the tide turned completely for the majority of people. Oh, gosh. I remember sitting there with Susan Hendricks in the courtroom when the first psych wallah came up. And she didn't seem like she had a dog in the fight. I'm not saying she was disinterested, but she was very clinical. And that's kind of what you want in a shrink or a doctor or an expert on the stand. You don't want them to be swayed by opinion or conviction of their own.

You want them to recount in a clinical manner what happened. And she did that on the stand. Of course, later it came out that she was a crime sleuth and had been investigating the case on her own. But she took copious notes of everything Richard Allen said. Susan Hendricks, do you remember you and I are watching the jury like hawks when she described what he said, including Susan Hendricks, when he asked to use the phone to call his wife and Walla left the room to give him privacy. She came back and he goes, I want to call his wife. And Walla left the room to give him privacy. She came back and he goes, I want to call her back. She doesn't believe me.

She doesn't believe I killed Abby and Libby. Do you remember that moment? And the jury was just sitting there staring at her. They weren't taking notes. They were just looking at her. Yes, absolutely. And those, when he told Dr. Walla over and over and over again that he did this, and even, like you said, mentioned that his wife didn't believe it, that his mother didn't believe it,

and he sounded of sound mind, she said, that she didn't believe that he was in psychosis. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace another thing cheryl did you notice in court and you too susan dave mack jump in i mean we've been waiting for this day over seven years this moment has been over seven years in the making since Abby and Libby disappeared on a simple walk. Feb 13, 2007, investigators finding them both brutally murdered the next day. Their bodies covered in branches in a wooded area near that high trestle bridge. I'm just thinking how the jury could look at him, Cheryl McCollum, because he looks so sane, you know, dressed up for the courtroom. He had those glasses perched up on his head that he never used.

I never saw him use the glasses one time. And I mean, to look at him talking to his lawyers, asking, hey, hand me some mints, you know, and just looking when the door opened, you know, conversing back and forth, mouthing things to his wife. He was totally sane in the courtroom. So it's hard to reconcile what they were seeing with what the defense was saying, Cheryl. Again, I don't think they missed it. He's there taking notes. He's talking to them, whispering. He's acknowledging what people are saying.

Oftentimes when somebody was testifying, he would be nodding yes. Sometimes he would almost scoff like, oh, that's ridiculous. Again, this is not somebody that they were portraying in this psychotic state. Again, Nancy, when you first sent me there, the thing that I remember most, I was in the car with Kelsey, I was driving, and I said, please don't anybody tell me how to get to the bridge. I want to see if I can find it. And I couldn't. There's no real signage. There's no way to get there. And I knew then, and I told everybody everybody he's from here he's right here and I think that's something also the jury knew this was not some transient person this isn't somebody that they didn't zero

in on the jury took all the information funneled it down into its purest you know purest form. It is Richard Allen. Jump in, Dave. Yes, you can. Go. A couple of things. One, where you're talking about he seemed really sane in talking to his attorneys. Well, they turned the video away from the gallery so we couldn't see what the jury saw where he was nude or partially nude and acting out while he's being held in solitary. So we didn't get to see that. They did. They got to see this guy who's wacko nut job in jail and then seeing him over here acting normal.

But the other thing was I was really concerned about the bullet, the whole the cartridge thing, the one piece of actual physical evidence that tied Richard Allen to the crime scene. And you pointed out they're telling everybody they're telling Richard Allen to the crime scene. And you pointed out they're telling everybody, they're telling the jury to ignore the evidence. Don't even do it. And I thought as this went on, as the deliberations went on, I thought, oh my gosh, they're buying into this lie. Yeah. It's not just a bullet, Dave. You're right. They were saying, hey, I know he gave 60 plus confessions, but ignore that. It's just, it's like in the wizard of Oz. Don't look at the man behind the curtain. Just keep looking at the

big scary image that I'm projecting up on the wall. Don't look at me. Don't look at the bullet. Forget about that. It's not real. Forget about all the confessions. They're not real. Forget about the fact that he was wearing the same clothes as the bridge guy and places himself at the scene of the murder in the time frame the girls were murdered. I mean, you're right, Dave Mack. Don't look here. Look there. Look at the screen of him naked and masturbating and spitting and eating paper and putting his head in the commode. Look at that. Look at that. Look at that. That's what the defense was, Susan Hendricks. Yeah, and obviously, clearly, it didn't work.

I know that on Saturday, the jury wanted to hear Libby's phone again, the recording, and they also wanted to hear an interview that Richard Allen did October 2022. Were they comparing the voice? I'm guessing, yeah. Maybe they had one holdout who wanted to make sure the voices matched. Okay, tell me again exactly what they wanted to hear because, you know,

Cheryl, that would throw me into a fit. When the jury had a question during deliberations, I would love it and hate it because I always believe that the questions they ask, that they ask during deliberations, tell you where they're headed. Do you remember, Cheryl, whenever we would get a question during jury deliberations? Oh, my stars. Oh, without question. And Nancy, that's what this did for me. You and I talked just privately, and both of us said if they want to look at those videos

of the interrogation, that to me was for the prosecution. There was no doubt in our minds at all. I felt that, yes, you and I discussed that, and I felt on the other side of the fence, Cheryl, that if they wanted to look at him behind bars acting out, you know, having his alleged psychotic break, that would be bad for the state. But if they wanted to hear his confession or his statement, that would be good for the state. But if they wanted to hear his confession or his statement, that would be good for the state. Now, so Susan Hendricks, guys, joining us at the courthouse, she's been there throughout the trial. Susan, tell me what it is they wanted to hear on Saturday exactly. They wanted to hear what was on

Libby's recording from that day, February 13th, 2017, which is now why we say guys down the hill. We all knew that. we saw it during trial, the entire 43 seconds. They wanted to hear that. And they also wanted to hear the interview with detective Holman and with Richard Allen when it got heated the day he was arrested. They wanted to hear that man that was aggressive with detective Holman and they wanted to compare the voices. So on Libby's phone, you can hear down the hill, down the hill. Okay. And on the interview, you can hear Richard Allen speaking to Holman getting angry. So yeah, I bet you're right.

I bet you're right. And I wonder if they were listening, Susan Hendricks, for anything he said in that interview that corroborated things that only the killer would know. Such as what, Susan Hendricks, for anything he said in that interview that corroborated things that only the killer would know, such as what, Susan? Yeah. And also, I shut my eyes, Nancy, in court as he was talking. And I thought, that's Bridge Guy, because I heard him say the word down, down, talking about something else. I drove down there to down this stuff. And I just shut my eyes and I opened it and I saw one of the defense attorneys quickly look away from me.

But I was saying, that's him, that's him. Because he hasn't spoken a word. He whispers to his attorneys. You never hear him talk besides Libby's phone. I believe he is Bridge Guy. That's what they wanted to prove and they did it. Cheryl, you and Dave and I agreed weeks ago that there's no way this guy's gonna take the stand because he doesn't want the jury to hear his voice anymore.

He doesn't want to provide another voice exemplar. But Cheryl, I remember when Susan and I were talking and she was describing that moment that she was just telling you about. And she was, Nancy, it's him. I closed my eyes. I listened to him on the video, on the interview. I listened to the bridge guy and I knew that is him. That's right. And she told me the same thing. And I'll tell you something, Nancy, that I think is critical. If you remember back when Wayne Williams was on trial, when people first saw him, they thought this young, pudgy, weak looking guy, like there's no way he's this big killer. But when Jack Mowers was able to make him freak out on the stand

and burst into anger, that was a change for the entire jury. I think that's what happened here. They saw that he was capable of just having this rage. And I think that was important to see. Dave Mack, what do you think held the jury up this long? For all I know, nothing held them up. They could have, Dave. Dave and I love to talk about second guess. Like, what does this mean? What does that mean? It may mean nothing, Dave. OK, but what do you think was the sticking point? If there was one, it may have really just taken this long to go through everything. I think I think there were sticking points, Nancy. I think the 16 questions that I asked you this early on, the jury was allowed to ask questions of people testifying after they were done.

They asked more questions about the bullet than anything else. They asked a total of 16 questions about that. So I was concerned there. Another one I was really concerned with was the cell phone data, the phone ringing and then immediately having this 3.5 plug going in, the headphone plug going into the phone, and then being unplugged five hours later. I thought that was incredibly fascinating testimony. However, I also knew from another trial that this is something that can happen with water or dirt, something getting in there, and because of the location of where that phone was found under Abby's body, it made perfectly good sense that water or dirt, a speck, could have gotten in there and actually have triggered that thing to point out that it says the headphone jack is in.

Biggest problem I had, and I'm sure the jury questioned this, is why did you have this for seven-plus years and now you're Googling it? Why couldn't you have some better testimony than that? And I think they came back with, well, it was an obvious thing. There was nothing to it. And that's why they didn't dig deeper. Well, I guess when asked, all you've got for me to cross off, cross me with is a Google search. And I guess one answer would be, yeah, because that's all it took. But that said, Richard Allen's wife has come out of the courthouse and stated, quote, this isn't over at all. Hmm. What do you make of that, Susan Hendricks? I think that the family believes he's innocent. And I believe the attorneys made the family feel he was innocent and gave them a shot. I think this is coming up on appeal and they're going to blame Judge Gall for a whole lot of things.

Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. They're already coming down on the judge. I got to tell you something. When I was in the courtroom, I locked eyes with the judge. That woman, she is as tough as nails and she kept an iron clad rule on that courtroom and she should have, she would tolerate no, uh, no talking, no eating, no drinking, nothing from either side. I, I did notice she was very, uh, very kind and considerate to the jury, which reminds me of a lot of the judges that I practiced in front of. But to everybody else, I would, I don't think she was too firm. I think she was just right. Wouldn't you agree, Susan? Oh, absolutely. I respect her. I know she was strict, but what she went through before

having to go to the Supreme Court, they wanted her kicked off the attorneys. It was a circus. And she said, uh-uh, isn't happening with me. And I believe she did an excellent job. You know, she really did. I believe that she has indicated, she told the defense attorneys to go ahead and file their motion about third-party suspects if there was going to be an appeal, the attorneys are already claiming the judges at fault by not allowing them to bring up. And I'm telling you what they wanted to bring up, which I think was a poor choice. Odinism. I mean, yeah, what they, I mean, you're going to convince a jury, some Thor worshipers did this, made a blood sacrifice like that kook on YouTube said?

No, no, no jury would ever believe that. But what about Cheryl, the guy who passed away? He's not there to defend himself anymore. He would have been the perfect scapegoat for the defense. Ron Logan is not there to defend himself, offering up a sacrifice that has never been done ever with two young teenage white females was ridiculous. But Nancy, I don't want to gloss over it. Wait, hold on. I want to clear up what you just said. The reason you said it was ridiculous that Odinists would kill two white teens is because Odinists in certain areas, Odinism, has been mixed with the Aryan nation and white supremacists.

So if they killed anybody, it would not be a victim like Abby and Libby. They'd pick somebody else that they hated, right? Is that why you're saying that? That's exactly why I'm saying it. Plus, it's never been done. So when you get this down to the math of it, it was never going to hold. It was never going to stick. But I would like to address something Susan just said.

When his wife comes out and says this isn't over, let me tell you something. She had the opportunity to get on that stand and protect him and to make us understand he didn't do this. She could have told us what he did on the night of the 13th, how it was Valentine's Day for the two of them. She didn't do that. She had a chance to help save him, and she chose not to do it. And when she found out that not only was he at the trails, he was on the bridge, her first statement to him was, you never told me you were on the bridge. She didn't want to take the stand because she knew she couldn't because she recognized him.

She recognized the clothes and the walk and the voice. She knew not only that he was there at that exact time. Keep in mind, Richard Allen never saw another man. He only saw girls. He never even saw the women that exact time. Keep in mind, Richard Allen never saw another man. He only saw girls. He never even saw the women that saw him. She knew. She knew what happened when the police came to her house. She knew what happened when they came the second time

that she didn't call them, and she knew what happened when they showed up with a warrant. Susan Hendricks, when was the first confession taken? April. April 2022. Early April 2022. And I have an entire timeline in my six notebooks of when. Oh, gosh.

But when he did first confess, he was of sound mind. That came first before this alleged psychosis. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me ask you, Dave Mack, we have been combing through all of the fantastical theories, and I was really worried the jury might latch on to one of these if there was a scintilla of evidence put forward about it. But why are people so convinced that he's innocent? I mean, the crazy theories online, Dave Mack, are... They're horrible.

It just shows you that some people have too much time on their hands and they couldn't they could not fathom that a single person would be that evil to take on two children and convince them at gunpoint to go down the hill and do as they were told. He picked the perfect victims. I hate to say that, but he picked two girls that were still girls and they were told by an adult man, I got a gun, I'm gonna use it, go down here, do what I tell you to do. And they bought into it because of some bad digital camera footage

that they saw online. By the way, the people who come up with these crazy conspiracies, they don't ever actually see evidence. What they see is things online. They don't even know if what they're watching online has been fixed by somebody else who's messing with them. I'm shocked that we didn't hear the defense throw up more of a Keegan Klein defense, the Ronald Logan thing. I'm surprised. I'm wondering, Nancy, and this is my question for you. Was the defense laying groundwork so that if convicted, Richard Allen could come back and say, my defense didn't do what they should have done.

Here are some other avenues that should have been explored and they weren't. Oh, gosh, you're right. But I'm sure I got to tell you something. I really have faith in this judge. I do. Just listening to her demeanor on the bench, the way she handled everything that happened from the very beginning, all the pretrial motions, you name it. She has been very consistent. Now, the law varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, state to state, but generally speaking, one thing is true. All three of you, please jump in. If you have a scintilla of evidence that someone else did the deed, you can bring on third party guilt.

For instance, Ron Logan, it was his property. Didn't he lie about his alibi, Susan Hendricks? He lied because he was on probation for drinking and driving. Exactly. So that to me, using the fact that he lied, using the fact that it was his property, using the fact that he has gone on to the hereafter and cannot defend himself would have been a perfect scapegoat. They did not do that. They went with the Odinist theory. Now, to bring in a third party guilt theory, some other dude did it.

You have to have some evidence, right? You have to. And they brought it up again the other day. And Judge Paul said. Yes, that's why I kept talking about Odinism. And everybody online was like, stop talking about it. She's ruled out odinism. I'm like, no, no, she's ruled it out. But if they can get in facts to support it, they can then bring it in. What I'm saying is you can't say, um, Cheryl, well, um, I heard about a child killer out in Wyoming and maybe he came to Indiana because it's the same M.O.

Maybe it's him. All right. Maybe it is. Maybe a little green man from Mars did it, too, and then beamed right back up. Yes, it's possible. But you have to lay some factual foundation. And that was not laid for Odinism. Right. But they didn't give up. They tried again last week and she said for the thousandth time, no, unless there's proof.

Of course, the jury was not in the room. Nancy, the two days that I was sitting there in court, it was evident that this jury was sophisticated. They were not in any way going to be snowed by that defense. They didn't have a choice but to drop it whether the judge said they could bring it or not. They weren't going to buy it. The second thing that I noticed, again, when they didn't bring up Ron Logan, it's because, if you remember, the FBI even served a warrant. It didn't pan out. They couldn't connect it. So like you used to always tell me, follow the evidence, not the theory.

Okay. You know, I don't remember ever saying that, but if you, it sounds really smart. So if you're going to attribute that to me, I'm really happy. Susan, buckle your seatbelt. People are already online screaming, this was a setup oh jesus not a setup that's who i just ran into libby's i just ran into libby's favorite teacher and i saw him in court one day when the phone call was played and i he just hugged me he said don't i'm gonna cry and he's right next to me so that's really what this is about it's like um so justice was served this is what I know about sentencing, guys. You know, in many, many jurisdictions, a murder charge is a mandatory life sentence. And you can then try to get the death penalty or life without parole.

Okay. Here, that's not true. The sentence is anywhere from 45 to 65 years behind bars. There is an advisory sentence of 55 years. We know that the sentencing is set for December 20. We know at that time that the defense is planning to bring on character evidence, evidence of good character. I can only imagine what is the state going to bring on?

I guess the heinous nature of the crime is number one. But what do you think? I think maybe they just play his voice again. They play Libby. I know Nick McLean, the last words out of his mouth were Libby always wanted to solve crimes. She did her own. What about it, Cheryl? I believe that this judge is going to give the maximum because the prosecution is going to lay out that a 14-year-old girl gave us the best evidence possible, which was video and audio of her killer. And when her friend said, don't leave me, she didn't. So, Susan, has the death penalty ever been on the table? Does Indiana even have the death penalty? Yes, Indiana does. They haven't administered it in a long time. It was something to do with the medicines and the manufacturers. It's never been on the table,

though. I asked several times and no, it has not. They do have the death penalty, but this is not a death penalty case. Okay. And let me tell you, if it hasn't been tried as a death penalty, that's not an option at sentencing. When you're trying a case as a death penalty case, you have to, quote, witherspoon the jury and question the jurors about their beliefs on the death penalty. That did not happen in this case. This is not a death penalty case. However, the judge can still sentence to the maximum sentence. You know, I'm very curious, guys.

Why is there so much hate online, especially, but about this case. What do you think, Cheryl? I mean, you and I have been under, oh my goodness, I thought they were going to drag me out of Target the other day and put me on a stake and burn me. Nancy, I think there's a lot of people that are hiding behind the keyboard. Number one, I don't think they really believe he's not guilty. I think they're just doing it to antagonize people and be hateful. And I told you before, when you have somebody that is just hell bent on making somebody miserable and hurting them, and they won't give their real name, and they won't, you know, have more than two followers, they are baseless, faceless, factless, cow coward. And for me, none of those people factor here.

What factors are the real people that have been fighting like you? You sent me to Delphi before anybody had ever heard of Delphi. I didn't know where it was, and I went to Purdue for a while. So to me, there are people that have been advocating for this family, like Susan Hendricks that left her own family for a month and has been there every day. Okay. Now, wait a minute. I want to, I want to say something, follow up on what you're saying, Cheryl.

Guys, Susan left her family and Susan, your son, what was he saying the other day about murder? You told me, she's like, please don't tell that to the other moms. He's in second grade. And he said, Mom, he has a baby voice still. I love it. And he just said, Mom, guess what? My friend's mom came in to talk and she writes poetry books.

And I turned to my friend Henry and I said, my mom writes books. And he said, what kind of books? And he said, don't tell anybody. Murder. And Henry said to him, i think i'd like a murder book i thought oh my gosh therapy's come yeah that's a lot more fun to read about than poetry right yeah not oh gosh oh gosh every day i've been on speaker but i i had to be here i wanted to be here you know it's been so full of raw emotion every single day, the ups and the downs, the ups and the downs. And

I got to tell you guys, when I saw the victim's family in person again, last week when I was at the trial, their faces were just like stricken, kind of like pinched and nothing had even happened. Remember, Susan, it was first thing in the morning and they were just, you know, oh, my heart. They just looked raw, Susan, just raw. But I saw their eyes light up when you were there. You know what you signify, Nancy?

Not only a wonderful person to them, but that their girls matter. You know what we haven't talked about? We haven't talked about Libby and Abby. And I remember Lucy and John David at this age. And I just cannot imagine, imagine someone doing this to them. I mean, Cheryl, you've raised a boy and a girl. Remember that tender, sweet age,

just before they turn into a full on crazy teen. You know, it all happens when they're about 16, everything goes haywire. But they're half little girl and half teen and everything is new and wonderful. And they always smell like bubble gum and strawberries. And gosh, you know, Cheryl, what are your thoughts? Nancy, I had a chance to hang out with Kelsey and my daughter, Caroline.

And Caroline, at the time we first met Kelsey, was Libby's same age. And I have watched them the last seven years become friends. And every single time they hang out, I can't help but think for Kelsey, that's what it should be. You know, the two of them laughing, the two of them joking, the two of them wanting to go get lipstick and bubble gum at the same time, talking about movies, talking about movies, talking about boys, talking about what they would name their own babies.

I've watched this, and I've watched this friendship, but at the same time, every year, 15, 17, 19, now Caroline's 21. Libby should be 21. So I watch them, and I think that's what could have been. That's what should have been. Susan, what about it? I know. I was at Libby's gravesite right before I heard that a verdict was out.

And I put the bracelet down that said, Today is the day, and then heard verdict. And I just was looking at her gravesite with her face on there, and she had everything she loved to do. That's short. That's over. These girls are not coming back. The shelf I will never be the same.

Right now, sitting on the sidewalk, I'm looking across at a purple and teal ribbon around a light pole and outside of the courthouse where I spent day after day after day after day. But it's not about me. It's about these families. They go home now. They have a verdict. They don't have the laughter in the house. That's forever gone, forever taken. You know, Dave Mack, it just now is the time. I believe the victim's families need us the most because until the trial, first of all, they had to get through the funeral, the shock of what had,

the shock of them being passed away. Then the shock of discovering they were murdered. Well, you know, first they were missing. Then they find out they passed away. Then they find out the COD was, their throats were slit. They were murdered. Then the search, the search for the killer, completely consumed. Remember, they would come to crime con every year and we would do show after show after show, trying and trying and trying to get closer and closer to who did this thing. Then there's a suspect. Then there's an arrest. Then there's the wait for the trial.

Then there's a trial. Now the trial is over. Now what? Now they are left with the reality that the girls are gone and that empty house is forever. The mission is over, Dave Mack. This is where the grief, they'll actually be able to mourn now. And this is, you know, Nancy, I told a friend of mine, they're talking about the grief. They'll actually be able to mourn now. And this is, you know, Nancy, I told a friend of mine, they're talking about the case. And I said, you know, the one thing I got in this, because we've been covering it since it happened. And I said, the one thing I noticed in the families is that they felt in you, Nancy, that they had somebody that cared. Because after a while,

people get tired of not hearing an answer, you know, because there was no suspect. There was just question after question. And it's like you were giving them that hope that this is not going to go away. We will find who did this. And then you mentioned the arrest and then all of the stuff that happened leading up to trial. And right now, while we all cheer, you know what? The rest of us go on with our lives, but they go back home, not just to a silent house, but it's not a victory for them. They lost Abby and Libby. They I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, I would I don't know how I would go on. And that's what they're now going to face with, because the solution has happened.

The answer is there. The conviction has happened. And after sentencing, to be honest with you, I mean, if he serves consecutive sentences, he gets 130 years. Their daughters are still gone. Their granddaughter is still gone and they're not coming back. Today is a day to sigh, a sigh of relief. The trial is over. Justice was served. And I remember every time I would get a verdict, a guilty verdict in a murder case. People thought, oh, where are you going to celebrate? Where are you going to go? It was no celebration. I know that's hard for a lot of people to understand. It's a sigh of relief. It's not a time to celebrate and be jubilant

because you still, everybody leaves that courtroom with a broken heart. But this at least puts a bandaid, doesn't heal it. It can never be healed, but at least for now anyway, a bandaid on their hearts. Dave Mack, Cheryl McCollum, Susan Hendricks. Thank you, gals. I'll see you tomorrow on Crime Stories. Goodbye, friends. Thank you all for joining us today. This is an iHeart Podcast.