Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - " For My Sister," Denise Brown's Legacy to Nicole Brown Simpson

Episode Date: October 10, 2026

It's been 32 years since Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered outside her home along with Ron Goldman. O.J. Simpson was acquitted at trial, but many still believe he killed his ex-wife. October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month and with the release of her new book, For My Sister Nicole: Love Shouldn’t Hurt, Denise Brown continues her decades of work helping domestic violence survivors.   Denise details how she long believed Nicole was not a “battered woman,” but after discovering Nicole’s private journals detailing years of abuse, she learned what her sister had endured. The  journals revealed the physical, emotional, and manipulative abuse  Nicole had kept hidden.  Another book written by Keith Zlomsowitch, a former boyfriend of Nicole Brown Simpson "STALKED: 'It could have been me," lays out his firsthand account of his relationship with O.J. Simpson's ex-wife, Simpson's stalking, the murders of Brown and Ron Goldman, and the trial. Keith Zlomsowitch, a restaurateur dated Nicole Brown Simpson for about a month, shortly after she separated from O.J. Simpson. Their relationship was characterized by intense stalking from O.J. Simpson. Zlomsowitch told a grand jury that Simpson stalked and spied on them, including a time he watched them through a window while they were on the couch during sex.    Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Chris Melcher - Celebrity Lawyer and Partner at Walzer Melcher & Yoda Dr. Cheryl Arutt - Licensed Clinical and Forensic Psychologist specializing in Trauma Recovery, PTSD and EMDR,  website: askdrcheryl.com; IG: @askdrcheryl  Jon Buehler - Former Detective for Modesto Police Department, California, detective in Scott Peterson Investigation Shannon Henry -  President & Founder of SASS Go (Surviving Assault Standing Strong: a nonprofit on a mission to eradicate abuse, trafficking and violence against women and girls globally) Case Consultant, and Adjunct Professor at the University of South Carolina in the Department of Education; @sassgoglobal on FB, Instagram, X, and TikTok Alexis Tereszcuk - "Crime Stories" Investigative Reporter; X @swimmie2009 Dave Mack - 'Crime Stories' Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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there, anywhere. The Hard Rock Back Casino app is now in Ontario. Download the app. Roll with us. Must be 19 years of age or older to play. Only. Please play responsibly. Concerned about your gambling or that of someone close to you, visit connectsonnetio.ca. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Oranthal James Simpson. O.J. Simpson finally gets one of the many, many slaps in the face he deserves. Some would argue he deserved the death penalty for a double murder. That did not happen. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Well, it's about time somebody. said double murder and domestic abuse trumps being an all-star athlete. All the football glory,

all the gridiron greatness cannot erase the bloodstain on the memory of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. In the first days after the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, her sister, Denise Brown, said Nicole was not a battered woman. It took finding some of Nicole's private journals to open her eyes and see that Nicole had been an abused and battered woman almost since the day she first met O.J. Simpson. In her book, For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt, what to know about domestic violence. Denise Brown never mentions O.J. Simpson by name, but makes it crystal clear to whom she is referring by saying, quote, my sister's ex-husband or the football star. But Brown says it's not about him, except that he was the murderer, the batterer, the abusive partner that my

sister had. In this memoir, Denise Brown provides excerpts from Nicole's private journals, detailing years of abuse, not to be salacious, but to show women currently in an abusive situation that they are not alone and help is available. Written by Denise Brown, for my sister Nicole, love shouldn't hurt. What to know about domestic violence is available now. Take a listen to our friends at ABC. Right after Nicole was murdered, my sister Dominique, she found the diaries up at Nicole's place. A couple of months later, we started, my father started looking through the boxes and looking and started reading them. And he called me to his bedroom and he said, Denise, he says, come here and take a look at this. I started reading them and I thought, oh my God, why didn't she

leave? Why didn't she tell us? Why? You know, I asked all the why questions. A lot of football lovers refuse to believe O.J. Simpson did it, even though he writes a book, if I did it. And lays out the scenario of the murders of his beautiful ex-wife Nicole Brown and her friend, Ron Goldman. The brutality is something I will never forget. Oh, one or anywhere you see. He asked, can you send someone to my house? Or my ex-husband or my husband, he broke into my house, and he's ranting and raging. Now he's just walked out in the front yard. Had he been drinking me? No, but he's crazy. You know what always strikes me about that portion of one of Nicole Brown's many, many 911 calls?

Is that she was just like, yeah, he's breaking into my house again. By this time, it had happened so many times, and she had been beaten so many times. That photo that was put up in the courtroom during Simpson's murder trial of her with her face just totally beaten and bruised. I mean, how that jury, oh, gosh, that's one of them. Look at her arm, for Pete's sake. Oh, gosh. It happened over and over and over. Joining me right now, two incredible guests.

First, I want to introduce to you Keith Zlomsoich. He is Nicole Brown's former boyfriend, and he is the author of a brand new book, Stalked. And I've got it right now, but I really think we should give the whole title. It's stalked. It could have been me. And I think what you mean by that, Keith, is that you could have been the one lying out in the driveway that night with your head, nearly severed off your body. Nicole Brown's head was attached to her body by a thin, a thin, a thin, bit of flesh in the back of her neck. She had been almost totally decapitated. The killer had that

immense strength. I wonder what he would have done with you if he had gotten a hold of you, Keith, knowing that you had been dating Nicole, actually spying on you through the window, freak. Freak is right. And you're absolutely right when you say that. In real time, maybe it didn't cross my mind as much, but after I saw what he was capable of in the murders, it's something I've had to live with for 30 years. I think that it could have been me in that very scenario. You are seeing shots, Nicole, in life. Some of the happiest times of her life outside of being a mom were with Keith Zlomzewich.

It's not just what he's saying. It's what other people said. Of course, their relationship was marred, ruined by this. It's 3 o'clock in the morning. And Keith and Nicole made love on the couch. But they weren't alone. There was somebody watching. There was someone watching through the window.

It was a defendant. Nicole hires a babysitter to watch the children while she and Keith go out to a comedy club. Arriving home, the children are asleep. It's about 3 a.m. Keith and Nicole become amorous on the couch, unbeknownst to either of them. O.J. Simpson is hiding in the bushes outside the house, stalking, watching the couple make love on the couch. Did you have any idea that O.J. Simpson was staring. He's about three feet away from you.

It sounds like a ditty threesome, watching you have sex with Nicole Brown with his shoulder asleep upstairs. I mean, did you have any idea the exception? The exception. extent to which he was stalking you and her? We knew about the stalking because it had happened several times prior to this particular incident, but that evening we were out several places before we went home, one of which was Roxbury, where Nicole saw O.J. across the dance floor and brought it to my attention immediately that he was there. And we just sort of at that point had had enough of his stalking and following us. So she looked at me and she said, what do you want to do?

Let's us get out of here. So we headed back to the house, not knowing he was going to follow us. In hindsight, maybe should have had an idea that that was going to happen. But, you know, we got home and we were in the house thinking we were alone and things happened. That was the first time we made love. So it was a special. It was very special. Come to find out.

You know, I need a shrink. And I need one really quickly. Dr. Bethany Marshall is joining us, renounced like a very special. analyst out of LA this jurisdiction. Author of Deal Breaker, you can see her now on Peacott, and you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer. You're the shrink, but there's got to be a name for this, for what Simpson did before

the double murders. Yes, well, obviously it's voyeurism, but Nancy, it is stalking, like the title of Keith's book. And the psychology of stalking is that the perpetrator, the stalker, lives in a state of rejection all the time. Even when that other person, maybe Nicole wouldn't pick up a phone call or wouldn't spend time with him and everything got interpreted as rejection. So he stalked her to punish her for rejecting him. He also believed that she belonged to him, like property. So I imagine when he's standing outside the window, watching them have sex, take each other.

there's clothes off, makeout. I mean, I'm imagining the whole thing with his face pressed up against the mirror. Nancy, he was probably enraged. And even at that point, possibly having homicidal fantasies, I'm not surprised that Keith waited so long to come out with this book because OJ. Sinsman is gone now. He can't do anything from the grave. So it's a safe time to talk about it. And it's a very important message this book.

I think it's so wonderful, Keith, that you wrote it and that people can read I don't get what you just said, Dr. Bethany, because Simpson, even during his marriage, was women threw themselves at him. How can you say O.J. Simpson was in a state of rejection? The world loved him. He was an icon. Don't you remember those? I believe it was, was it Avis or Hurt? I think it was Avis rental cars where he would be running through the airport and jumping over things.

He's very athletic, carrying like a bag with him or something. he was a star, he was in movies, he was in commercials, everybody loved him. What do you mean, a state of rejection? But you know, Nancy, this is what we see. Walker's and I believe was going on psychologically for OJ is that he probably had sexual relationships with other women, responded to women, flirted with women, but at the same time, he was obsessed and preoccupied with Nicole. He only wanted her.

And so we see with these guys, often they're pathologically jealous. They feel betrayed all the time. Even if the girl, the woman goes out, you know, maybe having lunch with her friends or something like that, he would feel betrayed and rejected. And then to get back at her, go have sex with other women. That's a really common thing for sociopaths. And he seems to build that profile. I just don't get it.

Let me go back to Keith Zlomzewich, the author of a brand new book, climbing the charts on Amazon stalked. But I like the rest of the title because it says so much more, it could have been me. And he's right. Because in a blind rage, Simpson not only murder, decapitated his wife, Nicole, but a completely innocent guy that had returned a pair of glasses to her home that night.

You know, there he is, Ron Goldman. And what a horrific phone call had to be made. made to Goldman's family to tell them just out of the blue, their boy is dead, murdered. They probably first thought, oh, it must have been a car crash. No, no. Then they find out the awful truth. Guys, these stalking just so bizarre. But that night, the first time that Keith had sex with Nicole Brown, they had been dating a while, he had no idea. O.J. Simpson was peeping, peeping Tom through the window, just a few feet away, staring at them the whole time. I'm really surprised he didn't break down the window and come in and strangle you right then and

there. When did you find out he had been spying on you that whole night? The very next day, OJ burst into us. We were in the back bedroom of one of Nicole's house in one of the bedrooms, and he came bursting in right on top of us and started declaring that he had watched us the night before and he wanted to be left alone with Nicole. I didn't want to leave her alone. I was scared for her safety. So I stood my ground, stood in between the two of them and refused to leave. He was getting angrier and angrier until finally Nicole realized the only way to get him out of there was to have me wait outside the bedroom door. So I did. She asked me to stay close enough so I could hear if anything happened, which I did.

And then he continued to go after her and read her the riot act. What was he saying to her? Let me guess. Bitch, whore, blah, blah. Oh, yeah, how filthy she was, how disgrace she is. I watched you. I saw everything you did. You know, it was just bad. I couldn't hear every word he was saying. But when she came out of the bedroom, when they came out together after about 10 minutes,

and he tried the old shake my hand thing, you know, that wasn't, wasn't, um, oh, okay, wait, whoa, whoa, wait. So he breaks in, he bursts into the bedroom where you and Nicole are still in there. I think you said still in bed, probably woke you up and starts harassing you. Well, no. What now? I was giving her a, I was giving her a back massage, um, non-sexual. Um, and he came in through the back door, which all.

told us that he knew exactly where we were at we were at in the house he didn't try to come through the front door he didn't come through the screen door in the back he came right through the bedroom French doors that we were in so he knew where we were at in the house and he came right through stood right in my face as I'm looking up from sitting on Nicole's back I was obviously mortified I didn't know what to do I got up slowly and then he started in on both of us and wanted to be left alone with Nicole so he repeatedly said I want to talk to you alone I want to talk to you alone.

And I said, I'm not going to leave you alone with her. I don't trust you until eventually Nicole convinced me to go outside. I stood outside in the kitchen close enough that I could hear if something was going to go down. But I couldn't hear every word they were saying. Five, ten minutes later, when they came out of the room together, he approached me in the kitchen, gave me this half-hearted, sort of shook my hand. I'm a proud man, was his statement. I didn't reply.

I just sort of stuck my hand out. And then he disappeared. Wait a minute. He's a proud man, a proud man that, what, hunker down behind a bush the whole night to see what you were doing with the wife that you had broken up with him over the beatings? That proud man? Can he just see him squatted down behind the bush? It's probably how high as a kite.

And we know it's my opinion that he tried to enter the house that night, whether through the front door or whether through the back door, but I'm convinced 100% that he didn't just watch us through. the window and walk away and go home. I'm convinced he tried to get into the house. We didn't hear him. We had some music on and we were involved, obviously. But, you know, to find out the next day, how personal that was. And when Nicole came out of the bedroom behind him and he shook my hand and left, she was mortified. You could see it. She was white as a ghost. And she just looked me in the eye and said, he watched us. Oh, my God. He watched everything we did last night. And then,

we just looked at each other and went, oh, my God, what's safe? We didn't know what was safe. Okay, you do know. He probably camped out outside her house the entire night. There's no way. Simpson goes home and comes back. No, no, no. And this is while the children were home asleep upstairs?

Yes, correct. And the eerie part of that whole thing is Nancy. And it goes back to the title of the book is, you have to draw a direct correlation between that evening and the evening of the murders on June 12th and 94, because the geography is so eerily similar, and you read about it in the book where I describe how I left about maybe four, 4.30 in the morning because I would never stay the night at Nicole's house

because we were leery of the children waking up and finding another man in the house. It was just how we thought about it. So I left very early in the morning, and it was dead silent in Brentwood. I just remember that. It was spooky, as I walked out of the house to my car, which was parked on the street. So I was accessible. So I know he wasn't there then.

He must have gone home at some point. But if you look at the geography of how there's a long courtyard and a gate and another sidewalk that leads to the living room window, it's exactly what he did on June 12th. He came through a gate down along sidewalk, around a corner, through her front window, where she had to come out the front door, where he eventually murdered her and Ron. her and Ron. So there's a direct correlation if you look at it and I write about it to both those evenings. And that's what sparked in my mind the whole, it could have been me part of it because I felt like had he still been there that night, it would have been me. Or if he could have gotten into the

house that evening through an unlocked door, which none of them were, that it could have happened right there in the living room. So I've had nightmares about that for the last 30 years and something that was an overbearing sort of subject. Dr. Bethany Marshall, what does that mean? I mean, it's one thing to have an argument with your ex. I would expect that, especially when you've got children together. But to call your ex a whore, a bitch, and everything else that he called her, told her he was trash and filthy and dirty and had shamed him, really? With the children, you know they could hear him.

screaming like a crazy man. Nancy is part of the pattern of abuse, right? Devalue the woman, shame her for her sexuality, humiliate her, embarrass her, try to take down her credibility in front of the children. These are classic abuse signs. Also, trying to isolate the victim from sources of support. So here she starts dating Keith. They're having this romantic evening.

He bursts through the bedroom because what he's trying to, trying to do is assert dominance over Nicole and over Keith. And he thinks that by separating them, he's going to be able to separate them permanently. Now, that really odd thing where he says, I'm a proud man, he turns reality on its head. He's actually humiliating himself as well as her. And then when he shakes hands with Keith, that's, I think, another dominance moves. He thinks that he's been successful in separating the two, getting them into different rooms, shakes hands and leaves. And I think he feels like he got his way. That he won. What do you mean he won? That he won. That he has now taken Nicole apart psychologically, abused her, beat her down

emotionally, and now she will come back and depend on him instead of continuing to date Keith. He probably thought that he won her over. So basically, he's like a dog that comes in and Titi's on everything that he thinks is his. Exactly. That's exactly what he did. That's how he asserted the dominant. He lifted his leg and then he was happy and he left. Because her house was his territory.

Nancy, I used to live in Brentwood. Between Nicole was just to the south of me and O.J. Simpson on Rockingham was just to the north. So I know that area very, very well. It is super quiet at 4 in the morning. Brentwood is such kind of like a sleepy community. but it's a very wealthy enclave. So her house where it was located, it was almost like walking distance

between the house and Metzaluna, where Rob, where Ron Goldman worked. And so it was a place where there was a lot of visibility. She and I went to the same hair salon and the same nail salon, and the girls in there would talk about the fact that she would come in with bruises on her face and on her arms. she lived her life being stalked and being beaten.

That was just her life at that time. You know, it's very disturbing. And even though I prosecuted, by the time I got domestic violence cases, as they are called euphemistically, somebody was dead or had had an aggravated assault or aggravated battery, like lost an eye, lost use of an arm, lost use of a limb. But when I worked at the Battered Women's Center as a volunteer at night, That was for nine years.

And to hear these women, because again, by the time I usually got their cases, they were dead. And I never got to speak to them. But as working the hotline, I did speak to them. And they would be just totally numb. It would be just a way of life for them. You know, that's curious. Back to you, Keith Zlamsawicz, new book, stalked. It could have been me.

It's interesting the way you described. And I didn't want to interrupt you when you first said it. that you guys were at the Rocksbury, and you were having a great time, everybody was dancing, you look over, there's Simpson, oh, what a co-inciding.

There he is. Probably been following you the whole night. And she was like, there he is. See, I would have been shot like, why is he here? What? But she, it was just typical, another day in Brentwood for her.

There's O.J. stalking her again, Simpson, Ornthal, James Simpson, turning up again wherever she was. It was just routine. for her at that point. She was numb to it. I mean, by the way, you described it,

she wasn't shocked or afraid. There he is. Like a bad penny. And we were getting used to it, to be honest with you, because this was the third or fourth time that he approached us in public. And they had had an agreement, supposedly, that if they both showed up at the same place, the first one there

was allowed to stay. The second one there, if they saw the other person would leave. He never abided by that, obviously. But he knew where we were going because the times that he would show up would be just too uncanny. So we knew that we were either being followed or we being ratted out by someone as to where our destination would be. So he knew exactly where to go, where to find us. And that includes that night.

We had gone to a comedy show first before we went to Roxbury to go dancing. We get into Roxbury and there he is. We leave Roxbury and what's he do follows us home. So it was a pattern. Oh, this is totally a pattern. I mean, they even had any. agreement in place, hey, when we both show up at the same place at the same time, the one who got their first gets to stay. So obviously, this had happened so many times they had to come up with some type of agreement, a truce of sorts.

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$1.5 million to both the Brown and Goldman family, which he never paid. He then goes on to serve nine years behind bars over a robbery in kidnapping, where he busted into a Vegas hotel

to confront dealers of memorabilia that he wrongfully claimed belonged to him. He got out of that jam, November 2017, then spent the rest of his life chasing Nicole Brown lookalikes and living the highlo.

signing autographs and bars and restaurants, getting free tea times and meals. But now he's having supper with Satan. Enjoy. Why do I say that? Because of the facts. It's all about the facts. Since the murder of her sister Nicole Brown Simpson in 1994, Denise Brown has spoken up about how her sister suffered years of abuse at the hands of her husband, O.J. Simpson.

During his murder trial, jurors heard 911 calls placed by Nicole when you, she feared for her life because of O.J. In her new book, For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt, What to Know About Domestic Violence, Denise Brown refuses to use the name OJ Simpson, referring to him as my sister's ex-husband or the star football player or simply the defendant. But tells USA Today the book is not about him, except that he was the murderer, the batterer, the abusive partner that my sister had. In the book, Brown points out how Nicole was only 18 when she met Simpson a month after moving to L.A. from her childhood home and how warning signs of abuse were apparent from the first time the family met Nicole's boyfriend. After Nicole's murder,

the Brown family was shocked to read private journals, Nicole kept, documenting a life of abuse and threats of abuse. Denise Brown says now, she dedicates her life to making sure others don't say all the wrong things like I did. Denise Brown's, for my sister Nicole, love shouldn't hurt. What to Know About Domestic Violence, available now from Blackstone Publishing. Take a listen to CNN. Our whole family was there, and the abuse was taken place. We were there, and everything was happening behind closed doors. We didn't see it.

We didn't hear it. So for me to look at it and to see Nicole and to take pictures of Nicole when she had the battered face, you know, the scratched up face, and underneath her arm, I took pictures. those pictures, I thought, were an isolated incident. Guys, it didn't end there. Listen. Keith meets Nicole, Aspen, Colorado. Slumsawich is Director of Operations for Metzaluna Restaurant Chains, California locations, and Aspen.

Keith returns to Los Angeles, and he and Nicole begin dating. Keith and Nicole constantly under attack as Simpson stalks and harasses the couple. During a dinner out in Metzaluna and Brentwood, Keith and Nicole, mortified to see Simpson pull up in front of the restaurant. Nicole was there, Keith was there. The defendant suddenly showed up, drove up in front of the restaurant, got out of the car, walked up to the table where they were seated, put his hands on and said, I'm OJ Simpson and she's still my wife.

When she filed for divorce and moved out of his house, that was intimidated. If you get someone over here now to 325 Gretton Green, he's back. He's O.J. Simpson, I think you know his record. If you just need somebody over here, he's just a whole bunch of here. He's just driving over. Wait a minute, what kind of car is he in? He's in a white frog. But first of all, we'll put that door down to get in.

Let's see. The 911 call escalate, escalate, escalate, nothing was ever done. And now she's dead. Joining us tonight, a man that truly loved her and that she loved in return. Keith Slomswich, new book, Stalk. It could have done.

Ben, me, and he's totally right. I want to look very quickly at what we were just viewing, and that's Darden's argument to the jury, because I want to watch Simpson. This is Darden describing another incident where Simpson shows up where Nicole and Keith are. Let's watch. At the Mezzaloon, Nicole was there, Keith was there. The defendant suddenly showed up, drove up in front of the restaurant, got out of the car, walked up to the table where they were seated, put his hands on and said, I'm O.J. Simpson, and she's still my wife.

When she filed for divorce and moved out of his house. That's what I wanted to see. That's what I want to see. When Darden says, she filed for divorce and moved out of the house, he's like, did you see that? I mean, and another thing I've noticed when I was watching him during the trial. And Keith, you were called as a witness for both the state and the defense, so I'm going to get into. but I noticed every time it got sticky for Simpson, he would like suddenly start writing notes. I would have loved to see those notes. I did it. Come and get me. But he would look away from the jury and start writing notes.

So I would always know when I was watching the trial at the time that whatever was happening that would make Simpson act like he was taking legal notes was something that was damaging to the defense. I want to move forward, guys. Listen to this. After the incident at Metzaluna, when Keith refuses to back down to Simpson, Nicole opens up and shares her life of abuse with Simpson. As the couple continues to date, Simpson stalks Keith and Nicole wherever they go, showing up at every restaurant and nightclub, hiding in bushes and watching through windows, making it impossible for Nicole to have a romantic relationship with Keith. She's joining us, Keith Slumsowich, author of a brand new book, Stalked. It could have been me. Keith, when did she first tell you that Simpson had been beating her for years?

Very early on, actually, when I got to Los Angeles and we started the dating thing, we became a doctor. And as these incidents of stalking started to present themselves, we were living it in real time. So we had this sort of bond. She understood I was going through the same thing she had gone through in the past. So she started to tell me about certain incidents between them, beatings, you know, control, all his possessiveness, personal stuff that I think she felt at that time because we had a bond from what we were going through together. So she opened up about everything. And I think she opened up more to me than she did to a lot of people, maybe even some of her family. You know, she wasn't very proud of some of the stuff that had happened to her in the past.

So some of the stuff she kept inside. She shared with me because we were living it in real time. She also was visiting a psychologist at the time. We used to almost laugh about it because the psychologist gave her a book entitled, something to the effect, Women who Love Men Who Hate Them. And I remember she used to have that book at the house and she'd read from it and talk to me about it a little bit. And she was trying to figure out what it was that kept her with him all those years at the hands of the business. When you stated that Nicole Brown was not proud of things that had happened to her, like what?

Like beatings. I described some of them in the book. There are times when they'd be on a trip together, a business trip, and he'd leave the room and he'd come back. And she'd know that he was with another woman. And she would confront him and she'd be beaten and locked in a closet. That happened more than once. And she told me about those incidents. So obviously, she wasn't very proud that she was still around after some of those incidents.

But it was her family. It was the children. It was the thought of having that family unit together that kept her around all those years and ultimately led to the reconciliation, the failed reconciliation that cost her her life. That leads me to another case. She got back with OJ. Did her family encourage her to stay with Simpson? No, I don't believe that.

I know that they liked OJ initially. OJ was very charming. There were two OJs, and this is something she told me directly. There's two OJ Simpson's Keith. There's the public one that everybody sees, and there's a private one that only I see. And you don't ever want to be left alone with the private one because you don't know what he's capable of.

I mean, we had that conversation. So I think the family thought OJ was a nicer guy than he really was. I mean, they were aware of a few incidents. Obviously, Denise testified to several domestic violence incidents that Nicole told her about. But I can't get in the middle of the family dynamic and tell you exactly what they were thinking. But I know Denise, you know, was witness to from Nicole telling her several incidents. Did they take money from Simpson? family? I don't know that they took money. I know that it's widely reported that they helped

Nicole's father with, I believe it was a Hertz Renn-a-car franchise that, you know, he ultimately made some money from. So I think that happened. I never heard anything like he, you know, provided them with cash for a house or anything like that. And I don't think that was the case. I mean, Lou and Judy were salt to the earth people. They met well. Yeah, you know what I think that people make those claims against her family to somehow, I mean, I see it all the time, somehow blame the victims. It's their fault. They were leeches.

They took money. They encouraged it. And, oh, he lost his temper and killed her. It's just total crap. Dr. Bethany Marshall, this brings up another issue. If you could touch on it very quickly. why is it the woman feels ashamed of what, quote, happened to her? It's like, oh, I tripped.

That happened to me. No, it didn't happen to her. Someone physically assaulted her, beat her to a pulp, and would lock her in the closet, which is a new to us. That's something I didn't know. Would lock her in a closet. Now look, again, I'm just a trial lawyer. But that means something.

To lock somebody in a closet? Well, again, he wanted total control and dominance over her. So to lock her in a closet is to have her all for himself and also to terrify her and discourage her from interacting with other people. Nancy, this self-blame that victims do, I think of it as a crisis of boundaries, meaning the victim knows that something is severely wrong with the perpetrator. The perpetrator is dysregulated, obsessed, self-preoccupied, relationship. relating to the victim through power instead of love and affection, but the victim feels that it's her job to fix it. And if she can't fix it, then she has failed in some way. In some ways, these men pull the women in kind of a mothering role that becomes the woman's job to keep the man's world safe and predictable, to make him okay.

So when she can't do it, when that task breaks down, she then falls into self-blame. Also, there's so much humiliation going on, Nancy. It's almost like a form of brainwashing where she begins to feel that she's a failure in some way. Did you hear what she said to Keith that there were two OJs, the one everybody sees in public and the one that she sees in private?

I have seen that in court. Of course, by the time I get it, it's a domestic homicide, but no one would ever think this guy was the devil, the devil when he's alone with the woman at home. He's so charming and charismatic. Some people even think attractive physically. It could not be more of a dichotomy. You know, Nancy, I thought of sociopathy, right, the personality disorder of being a sociopath when Keith was talking about this because one of the criteria is that the sociopath has a thin veneer of affability.

They're charming. They're outgoing. Because of how people really tend to like them. But the minute they get their feelings hurt or they feel diminished, minimized in some way, that veneer cracks. And what you see underneath is a very cold, calculated interior. So he was calculating probably for a long, long time how he was going to put a stop to all of this. And we know eventually how he did. what we're doing tonight, right? I'm not only talking about your new book stocked, but I'm trying

to tell, and I want you to help me tell it along with Bethany, to other women. They think nobody's going to believe me. This is somehow my fault. I screwed up. I don't want my family to know. I'm going to wear a high neck and long sleeves and long pants. I don't want anybody to see the bruises. I don't want my children to know. I don't want to mess up, mess up my family. I don't want to do that. It's all technical legal term. Crap. B.S. They will be beaten. It statistically

will not get better. It won't. It will get worse. I don't like being the harbinger of doom, but I know what the statistics tell me. And the woman will live through it for the rest of her life if she stays. And even worse,

the children will see it, hear it. Mommy's a whore. Mommy's a bitch. And they will grow up numb to that and think it's okay. The girl growing up will end up with a man that beats her statistically. And the boy growing up, he starts off like a little angel, will grow up to beat someone statistically. This is true. You've got to tell this story, Keith.

Do you hear me? You hear you. And that's part of the reason I wrote the book over the years, certainly since the advent of social media. I've been reached out to by numerous women around the country and some overseas that followed the story, followed Nicole in my plight, and appreciated what I did to try to defend her and pick up for her. Made a lot of children. I've helped a lot of women out of circumstances where they've come to me and said, you know, you gave me the strength to get out of this relationship when I didn't think I had that. And I'm still friends with some of them to this day. So I wanted this to be a sort of wake-up call for some women who are going through this right now as we speak, who may be watching this, to know that it doesn't change.

Guys like that are going to be like that. They do not change. When O.J. tried his reconciliation with Nicole 15 months after I had met her, and we had been so close during that time, he took her away to Mexico. She was at her parents' house for Easter weekend, I believe it was, and he knew she would be there. So he showed up, unannounced, uninvited, and tried to convince her. He had been to therapy. He had changed. He was a new man.

And he swept her away to Mexico to spend some time together to try to get her back. She fell into it. And, you know, sadly, all Nick really wanted was her family. She won't that family unit together. And we talked about this many times. And she fell back into his trap of, I've changed, let me show you how good I can be. and she called me and we had long talks about it and she decided she was going to give it a try

and that's when our incredible friendship that we had developed came to an end because he never got over me and then fast forward to October that year when the 911 tape occurs something else you have to remember is he did all this in front of the children

he belittled Nicole over the year and a half about making love to me with the children in the house that was his big thing Look what you did. The kids are here. Look what you did. You're trash. You're dirty. You're filthy. All the things he said and did to make her feel that way. But look at the facts. He kicked in the door and threatened to beat her when the children were there. He killed her and Ron Goldman when the children were there. And the door was open and they were sleeping right upstairs. And if they hadn't found those bodies, the children would have woken up. Tommy was. Keith, you're so right. And women out there are looking at Nicole Brown, you know, before she was murdered by Simpson, thinking, oh, she's so beautiful.

She's so glamorous. She's so perfect. She's got this perfect life, this beautiful home, gorgeous home, children, Simpson. And they think, you know, why can't I have a life like that? And the reality is abuse. And that seems to be sugar-coding it. I mean downright beatings, breaking arms, noses, blood gushing out of your mouth, losing teeth. That's the reality.

And if it could happen to someone like Nicole Brown, it can happen to anybody speaking of the other OJ Simpson. Take a listen. And I don't want emergency. If you get someone over here now to 325 Gretton Green, he's back. Please. Okay. What does he look like? He's OJ. Simpson.

I think you know his record. Is he just me somebody over here? Okay, what is he doing there? He's got to follow up here. He's going to over? Wait a minute, what kind of car is he in? He's in a white bronco, but first of all, he broke the back door down to get in. Wait a minute.

What's your name? Okay, is he the sportscaster or whatever? Yeah. Okay, what is he? Wait a minute. What is he doing? Is he brunt in? I think he's going nuts.

There's Mr. Sepsin kissing Denise Brown, kissing Ms. Judith Brown. It's Mr. Lewis Brown, talking to a friend. That's his son, Justin, and he kisses. After Sydney's dance recital, Nicole, the children and her family leave Simpson behind at the school and go to dinner with friends at Metzaluna in Brentwood. Nicole's mother accidentally leaves her glasses behind, and Ron Goldman, a friend of Nicole, who works at the restaurant, volunteers to drop the glasses off at Nicole's house. Goldman leaves Metzaluna at 9.45 p.m.

Not invited to family dinner at Mezzaluna, Simpson grabs McDonald's. with his house guest, Kalyn Kato. The pair returned to Simpson's home around 9.40 p.m. Around 10.40 p.m., Kailen hears several thumps outside his room and goes to investigate, but gets distracted by the limo waiting outside Simpson's gate, hired to take him to the airport.

That first said we saw, closing arguments by my former co-anchor, Johnny Cochran, was from our friends at Court TV. And you know what they're doing right there, Keith Islam's-a-Witch, author of a brand-new book, stalked. Cochran, brilliant, great, trial lawyer, you'd have a jury eating out of his hand. He's portraying Simpson as being charming

and in with the family that Simpson kissed Denise. He kissed Juditha. He kissed Mr. Brown, picks up his son, Justin, his son with Nicole, and kisses him. Oh, what a great family guy. They all love him. I know exactly what Johnny Cochran, God rest his soul, is doing. This guy would Never look at him. The whole family loves him. He wasn't beating Nicole. B.S. Yes, he was. That's from Court TV. Keith, that's what Cochran is doing right there. He's a puppet master. Absolutely. But that goes back to what I was saying earlier. There's two O.J. Simpson. He's in public there. He's around the kids. He's around the family. So you're going to see that OJ. Simpson. You're not going to see the private one that was the one who beat Nicole and the one who stalked us and followed us. and made our life impossible to be together and miserable.

So it just goes right into what I was saying about the two sides. That is. All of this is happening the night. Nicole and Ron are murdered. There was the piano recital and the family goes to Messaluna after he's not invited and his rage begins to build and this is where it ends. Listen. A neighbor sees Nicole's white Akita Kato, wandering the neighborhood alone.

parking, agitated, and on closer inspection, they notice he has bloody paws. The Hard Rock Beck Casino app is here, Ontario. With exclusive games like Hard Rock and Reels, Hard Rock Collectum, and Hard Rock Gold Blitz. Plus, over 3,000 more favorites, like Cash Eruption and 88 fortunes, all with safe, secure, and fast payouts. The Hard Rock Bet Casino app is here, Ontario. Real with us. 19 years of age or older to play. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Concerned about your gambling or that of someone close to you, visit connectsonterio. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. A neighbor sees Nicole's white Akita Cato, wandering the neighborhood alone, barking, agitated, and on closer inspection, they notice he has bloody paws.

The neighbor follows Cato to investigate, discovering Nicole and Ron's bodies at 12 10 a.m. The dog wandering the neighborhood covered in blood. Nicole's blood, her head practically cut off her body in the front yard, but no one believes Simpson could have done it. We know he hides in the bushes and stalks her home. He sees Ron Goldman and thinks, oh, they're the horrors with another man. I'm sure that's what he was thinking. Nothing could have been further from the truth. So LAPD heads to Simpson's home. Detective's Furman and Vanader go to Simpson's nearby home to notify him of his wife's death. Furman sees what appears to be bloodstains on Simpson's Ford Bronco and decides to jump the fence to gain access to Simpson's property.

Vanatter declares Simpson's home a crime scene and goes to secure a search warrant for the house around 7 a.m. Simpson leaves home at 11.10 p.m. to catch an 11.45 flight to Chicago lands 5.30 a.m. checking into the O'Hare Plaza Hotel at 6.15. 7 a.m. detectives informed Simpson of the murders over the phone and ask him to return to L.A. Simpson flies back June 13th and is handcuffed on arrival. Simpson is questioned for hours and investigators photograph a cut on his finger. Blood on his bronco cut on his hand. How did this guy walk free? And then there's the infamous slow speed chase where Simpson basically holds himself hostage.

Remember that? Because I'll never forget it. 911, what are you reporting? This is AC. I have O.J. in the car. Okay. Where are you? Please, I'm coming up to five freeways. Okay. Right now, we all are okay, but you've got to telephone, so this is back off.

He's still alive, that he got a gun to his head. Okay, hold on a minute. Monica? He just wants to see his mother. Let me get them to the house. Okay, hold on a moment. Is everything else okay? Everything right now is okay, officer.

Everything is okay. All about he wants to give him to his mom. He wants me to get him to his mom. about it. Okay. So that's all I, that's all we ask. He's got a gun you is in. Okay. What's your name?

My name is A.C.? You know who I am. God, God, shit. Okay. All right. I cannot believe the arrogance of these two. You know who I am? What?

No, the dispatcher does not know who you are, cowlings, from your first two initials. And he says he's going to his mother's. This guy murdered two people. Why is he even outworned? walking around on bondageous holding himself hostage. No, anybody else they would have, police would have overtaken, gotten them out of that car, and put them face down on the ground. But no, not Simpson.

And it all culminates in this. Matter of People versus Orintzell, James Simpson. How do you plead to counts one and two? Absolutely 100%. This is O.J. Simpson. one day in court by your decision. You control his very life in your hands. Treat it carefully, treated fairly, be fair.

Don't be part of this continuing cover up. Do the right thing, remembering that if it doesn't fit, you must acquit. In the matter of the people of the state of California versus Ornthall James Simpson, case number B.A. 097211. We, the jury, in the above entitled action, find the defendant, Ornthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code, Section 187, a felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson. That verdict from our forensic court TV. Were you surprised at the verdict, Keith? Yes, and no. I was concerned that the jury was going to buy end to Johnny Cochran's bullshit, for the lack of a better word.

but I wasn't overly surprised by her. Keith, you were actually a Paul bearer. You carried Nicole's coffin. What was going through your mind? You knew he murdered her. This is almost a surreal out-of-body experience. You got to remember, the murders took place on a Sunday night, Monday morning. The funeral was on a Thursday.

It was so lightning speed. I flew out there immediately. the family asked me if I'd be a pallbearer. I didn't see them because I flew into Los Angeles the night before. So the first interaction I had face to face with the Brown family was as holding the basket at the funeral. And that's when one of the sisters came up to me and said, do you realize what we were talking about that night?

And I said, no, I don't. She said, you. She was talking about surprise in Aspen. So imagine my voice. heartbreak. I hadn't spoken to Nicole for six months or so since that infamous 911 call where we weren't allowed to speak anymore because of OJ, still loving her, still thinking about her every day. She's dead. She's gone. I'm holding her casket. I'm standing two feet away from the guy I know in my heart and mine murdered her. And I'm told that she was thinking about me the night she was

murdered. I was, I can't even tell you the emotions that went through me at that point. So it was crazy. And then as we went down to the burial site, I actually had to stand next to O.J. Simpson, almost elbow to elbow for an hour or whatever time it took to read the rites of passage and everything that took place down there, knowing what had happened and having to stand next to him. So just imagine my emotions during that whole thing. It's hard to describe. I try to do that in the book. I do my best job of trying to walk the reader through exactly what I was feeling and my emotions. But it was crazy.

And Keith, you never married after all these years. Never married, never had children. I don't know if that's strictly because of my relationship with Nicole, but I never got over it. My life turned into a circus, obviously, with what was going on. It took me years to get over that. And I always kept a place for her in my heart. And I just never could get that attached to anyone else from that point on. So I'm pushing 65 now.

I'm still single. And I have a lot of great memories. But this tragic event shaped my life, my entire adult life. Believe it or not, I know exactly how you feel. I know you do, Nick. This book is amazing. I'm so honored that you joined us, Keith. This book stalked.

It could have been me. And there's just so much more to say, beyond what we've talked about tonight, even beyond what's in your book. Just, I'm very grateful for you shining a light on this plague in our world. of women being abused so horribly and ending up dead and their children destined to repeat the pattern.

Stalked, it could have been me. Tonight, we remember all the women who proceeded and followed Nicole Brown. Take a listen to our friends at NBC. Everybody knows I was privy to a couple of events. I think there was three. One major incident of domestic violence. I always thought they were isolated incidences. You know, I did not live with Nicole. I wasn't there all the time. So I did not know what was happening behind closed doors. Victims to domestic violence. Not just them, but their children, victims as well. And we honor the women that find the strength to speak out. They are all our American heroes. Denise Brown, the sister of murder victim, Nicole Brown Simpson, has released her memoir, for my sister Nicole. Love shouldn't hurt what to know about domestic violence.

Speaking to Lindsay Davis on ABC, Brown claims talking to a woman's shelter discussing statistics of domestic abuse. She was told the stats have gone from one in four women being victims of domestic violence when Nicole was murdered, and now the statistics reflect one in two women. are victims of domestic violence. In the book, Brown never says O.J. Simpson by name, but refers to him in ways that make it clear for the reader to know who is being referenced. The book provides resources for women who may feel as if they are all alone, how and where they can reach out and find the help they need.

Out now from Blackstone Publishing, Denise Brown for my sister Nicole. Love Shouldn't Hurt. What to Know About Domestic Violence. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human.